Gender and Gender Identity

[KageSora]

I personally believe that gender should be CHOSEN. We have an extremely large range of "male" and "female" anatomy. I don't think anyone has the right to tell someone what gender they are. HOWEVER, I think that "sex" is a different subject.. If someone has the identity of a male but they have the female reproductive organs, they are male in gender, but female in sex. Of course there are exceptions, such as not being able to reproduce or having both reproductive organs. In these cases I cannot make a general opinion..

Wait, so not being able to reproduce changes your sex?

 

To me, sex is defined SOLELY as what reproductive bits you have--regardless of if they work or not. If you have the female bits, you are sexed female. If you have the male bits, you are sexed male. If you have some of both, I think that's intersex? I think that's the term. Or, if there's another term people prefer, I'd love to know it.

 

Gender isn't tied to your sex, though. Gender is something you "choose" insofar as you choose the label your society has for what you identify with most accurately--or you take another, non-standard label for your society and apply it to yourself.

 

And then, of course, there's the difference between gender and gender expression--you can identify as female, but be very "masculine" in your expression of yourself. Or the other way around.

[TikindiDragon]

Trust me, I didn't choose my gender. I tried repeatedly to be a nice, heteronormative, cis-woman and it didn't work. It just made me feel worse. If I'd had a choice, it would not be to be where I am.

 

This is what irritates me about the 'it's a choice!' arguments. They're always made by people that *haven't* had to struggle with the issues, because if they had they'd realise that it's not something anyone in their right mind would go through by choice.

[Switch]

Me as well. I recently came out to my parents, and I'm constantly being told that "I just need to try harder and be happy with who I am."

 

Sorry, no. I can't just magically wake up one day and go "I'm happy being female!" I've been trying all my life, I only recently came to terms with being transgender, but apparently that's not good enough. :c

 

At the very least they are trying to be accepting, but it's still pretty iffy with them. They keep telling me they don't understand how being a boy instead of a girl will "magically" make my life better, as they said. But they're trying to understand at least.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Switch

[Wookieinmashoo]

If we're on the subject of inter-sexed people, I did out of curiosity, look some statistics up and it appears that it's much more common than people think. There's different "levels" or extremes, but the lowest "level" is close to 1 in 100 - 1 in 200. Other types are more rare.

 

I'm not transgender but I know otherkin is a belief while being transgender is something physical and based in science, so they're not even remotely similar.

[KageSora]

Trust me, I didn't choose my gender. I tried repeatedly to be a nice, heteronormative, cis-woman and it didn't work. It just made me feel worse. If I'd had a choice, it would not be to be where I am.

 

This is what irritates me about the 'it's a choice!' arguments. They're always made by people that *haven't* had to struggle with the issues, because if they had they'd realise that it's not something anyone in their right mind would go through by choice.

I didn't mean you woke up one day and decided you wanted to be a guy. I more meant you "choose" only as far as you pick which label fits the way you naturally feel inside. You have your own innate gender, you just pick which label--if any--you want to use to describe yourself to others.

 

That's about as much "choice" as most people get with gender.

 

 

Re:Otherkin:

 

It's not the same as being transgender, but the feeling of being other stuck in a human form CAN be very intense in some people, even so far as manifesting in the sensation of phantom limbs and whatnot. But, it's definitely not the same as transgender. It's a spiritual thing, not a biological thing.

[Riverwillows]

I think, that the whole reason people cling to the "gender/sexuality is a choice" dogma, is that deep down, waaaay deep down, people are afraid that what they've been brought to believe is "norm" really isn't.

 

Deep down, it is xenophobia, a condition the human race has been prone to since the beginning of time. It's the whole "not my family/tribe/type" syndrome and unfortunately, it's the inherent norm for humans, dating back to when we were little more than animals and fighting for territory.

 

It manifests itself in today's society, as bigotry, and fear of the "other". Anyone who is "other" in any way from what is society's "expected norm" is rallied against. People dig into whatever they can to justify this, and unfortunately, religious beliefs are very accommodating in this.

 

And, until we learn to let go of that deep primal need to have everything be our expectation of "normal", it will always be there.

 

Hopefully tho, it will eventually be a minor issue. Hopefully.

[Alyxsandre]

That Xenophobia. That is exactly the word I have been looking for--that humans have to categorize themselves and find a way to be labeled in order to 'belong' to something (edit) or otherwise always being left out/judged.

 

But on the topic of "choosing," the way I see it, even though it is chosen in a way, it's still something, that I believe anyways, that you were born with. It's just like sexuality. It's not like someone can just come out and claim to be homosexual some random day of their life. That identity, as some have been claiming in here, I see as something they were born with. Born as a female, for example, but identify as male. But that is where we start getting into murky waters. It does indeed get a bit complicated.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Dragnia_Zonatia

[TikindiDragon]

Born as a female, for example, but identify as male. But that is where we start getting into murky waters. It does indeed get a bit complicated.

Eh, not really murky, but certainly complicated. As I believe I've said before, the brain structure of trans people is closer to that of the gender they identify with than the gender they were assigned at birth. Which is down to fetal development. The way a fetus develops depends to some extent on the hormonal 'cues' it gets from the mother. If it doesn't get one of those cues, or get's a cue it shouldn't have... well thats where not only your trans people but also certain other conditions arise.

[Alyxsandre]

Which is down to fetal development. The way a fetus develops depends to some extent on the hormonal 'cues' it gets from the mother.

Most definitely.

 

Heheh...in general...We human beings and everything that has to do with us x'D just so complicated. but I guess that's part of the charm :3

[Riverwillows]

The way it's been explained to me, Transgender happens in the very beginning just after conception. Something happens to the brain in the identity area, so that even tho the body is gendered, the mind is affected to the opposite, or something like that. Nothing the mom or science can do, it's just a thing of nature.

 

Which convinces me its all part of the big plan anyway.

[Mtntopview]

So (correct me if I'm wrong) trans gendered people are errors and genetic mistakes?

[tenyasyugan]

Mtntopview: Reread your statement, it is very rude.

 

If you want to get technical, many of us are full of errors and mistakes. I, for example, have no sexual interests and have a large overbite. There are people with crooked faces, minor differences in hormones, etc etc. Everyone is full of genetic "errors". That doesn't make them any less of a person. Similarly, say a child is born blind. That may be an "error", but that child still deserves love and at least the chance at living a fulfilling life [there are many examples of successful individuals who were considered "errors"].

 

I think a person is a person, no matter how they define their own gender role or sexuality, or lack thereof, and it shouldn't effect how you should respect them as you would any other human being.

[Mtntopview]

Well I'm not looking at the people, Im asking about the genetics. Now with that confirmed, can't we use genetic therapy to repair the errors in the DNA so this doesn't occur?

[St. Jimmy]

I wouldn't trade my "errors" for anything. They make me, well, me.

[Mtntopview]

Well I would, not that I have any.

[Slaskia]

Well I would, not that I have any.

Perfection is boring.

 

*goes back to lurk mode*

[7Deadly$ins]

Well I would, not that I have any.

Of course you do. White skin, blue eyes, blonde hair... all of these are the result of genetic errors and mutation.

[Completely Different]

Well I'm not looking at the people, Im asking about the genetics. Now with that confirmed, can't we use genetic therapy to repair the errors in the DNA so this doesn't occur?

Genes and genetic therapy are hardly at that point, if they ever will be.

 

1) How do you detect these errors? We're still working on understanding the human genome, which is an incredibly complex system. I mean, we still haven't fully worked out what genes cause genetic diseases or even basic eye colour- working out which ones cause gender identity is even more difficult. Errors in the number of sex chromosomes can be detected by karotyping, but considering that many transsexuals don't have odd numbers of these, I don't think that would be much help. General DNA sequencing is also still pretty expensive and time consuming, though its getting better all the time.

 

2) That's assuming gender identity is even controlled by genes. While its at least partially responsible, I would suspect its also a combination of hormones, environment and raising.

 

3) Gene therapy is still a very new technique. What it basically requires is taking a virus, and changing its genetic code to have the section of DNA you want to replace. The virus infects the person's host cells, hopefully fixing their DNA.

 

Of course, its got problems- that's why we still aren't using it for all the genetic diseases out there. Its possible that the virus could mutate and become dangerous and virulent. Furthermore, to keep the human body from attacking the virus, you have to put a person on immunosuppressants, which puts them at risk of other infections. They therefore have to be kept in a sterile environment, or they could die. And once again, we'd need to have identified what genes control gender.

 

And if we were rewriting the genes not to change the person's gender, but their physical sex, it seems like a lot of hassle when we could just be using hormone treatments and sex reassignment therapies.

 

4) Fourth, you're assuming that this transgendered individuals have a "disease" and need to be treated. The truth is, gender is not an either/or thing, simply put into the construct of "man" and "woman" and linked directly to physical sex. Having a gender identity different than your birth body is dangerous. It doesn't make you sick. Its not like cancer or chicken pox. It doesn't deserve to be treated like that.

 

 

Edit: Ah, and it looks as if we're heading on fast train crashing into Goodwin's Law.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Completely Different

[Mtntopview]

White skin? Yes

 

Blue eyes? No

 

Blond hair? No

 

Stop comparing me to Nazis, because I am of Russian descent, and my ancestors where slaughtered by them.

[Zovesta]

Where are people comparing you to Nazis. >_>

[tenyasyugan]

Thing is, Blonde hair = recessive gene, blue eyes are a recessive gene that are actually from a lack of pigmented layers of tissue, and white skin is also likely related to leucism as humans were, originally, very dark in skin tone.

 

There was no intention of relating it to nazism, it was simply a list of very common genetic "defects" present in humanity. Other examples are green eyes, red hair, double-rooted teeth, etc etc. The main point is, you likely have a genetic "defect" and still qualify as human, as do all other people. There really isn't a reason to treat a relatively harmless thing as a disease, as those who are transexual or have other identities are only really harmed by social stigma.

Edited March 25, 2013 by tenyasyugan

[Mtntopview]

Thing is, Blonde hair = recessive gene, blue eyes are a recessive gene that are actually from a lack of pigmented layers of tissue, and white skin is also likely related to leucism as humans were, originally, very dark in skin tone.

 

There was no intention of relating it to nazism, it was simply a list of very common genetic "defects" present in humanity. Other examples are green eyes, red hair, double-rooted teeth, etc etc. The main point is, you likely have a genetic "defect" and still qualify as human, as do all other people. There really isn't a reason to treat a relatively harmless thing as a disease, as those who are transexual or have other identities are only really harmed by social stigma.

Well it looked to me like you were referencing the Nazis beleife in the aryan race, and were calling me a nazi.

[7Deadly$ins]

Well it looked to me like you were referencing the Nazis beleife in the aryan race, and were calling me a nazi.

If I wanted to call you a Nazi, I'd call you a Nazi.

[Mtntopview]

No you wouldn't, you'd hide it, in order not to be banned.

[KageSora]

Well I would, not that I have any.

Oh, you definitely have at least one major error alright--but I don't think we have a cure for that yet.

 

That aside... Who are you to say that transgender, agender, gender fluid, bigender, trigender, etc. people are "errors" or "broken" or something?

 

Did you know that not every society in the world recognizes two, and only, two genders of male and female? Some societies recognize, and have recognized for a long time, three or more genders!

 

Gender is often a social construct--or at least how we view gender is. There is also a difference between gender and gender expression, from what I understand (and this is a complicated topic, so all information I present in the following is simply as I understand it and, as it is complicated and my knowledge is limited, it may be incomplete and/or incorrect in some way--and I would appreciate corrections on anything incorrect!)

 

You have your physical sex, which is male, female, or intersex. (Are there others?)

You have your gender, which is male, female, or other (lots of 'other' possibilities).

You have your gender expression, which is how you present yourself. (kinds of clothes you wear, how you conform to society's view of your gender, etc.)

 

So, you can be physically female, for example. Then, you can identify your gender as female as well if you're cisex. However, your gender expression can be masculine if you prefer to partake in things your society generally associates with males, for example. Or you can have a feminine gender expression if you prefer to partake in what your society generally associates with females.

 

 

~~~

 

That aside... Who the hell is anybody to tell a person that they need to be "fixed" because they're an "error"?

 

I'd rather not be "fixed", thanks. I'll stick to being an asexual, genderfluid on the autism spectrum, thanks. If you're an example of "normal", then I absolutely don't want anything to do with it.

 

Also, I HIGHLY doubt that calling you a Nazi would be an auto-ban. Warnable, yes. Post moderation, possibly. Hell maybe even a temp. ban. But somehow I doubt that it would be enough, on it's own, to warrant a permanent ban. After all--it may be quite offensive, but you can get away with saying some pretty offensive stuff around here without being perma-banned--and you can say it fairly regularly, too, if the fact that several people who seem to offend somebody every time they get involved in a serious discussion have yet to be perma-banned is any indication.