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Coelophysis

Gender and Gender Identity

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Huh that's new. I wouldn't really call myself cis since im trans but I guess it's just personal preference

Trans has become an umbrella term I personally do not feel comfortable associating with. I have been attacked and called names for how I feel, all by people claiming to be in the trans community, so I typically distance myself from people claiming to be trans, as most of the time I have negative interactions with them.

 

 

Putting that aside, I don't want to be seen as trans, nor known as trans to be completely honest. I want to be seen as me. I want to be seen as a guy- some dude, not a 'trans guy'. That's making everyone aware of the fact that Biologically, I am not what I may seem on the 'surface'.

 

I mean especially for men who are natal females, it's particularly rough. There's a lot of fetishization/romantisization of us as well as misrepresentation, stigma, etc.

 

I mean I don't know if you noticed but by default if someone who is phobic encounters someone claiming to be trans, their automatic assumption is that they're a 'girl wanting to be a boy' or some variation of such. I've seen it be said to others and I've had it said to myself.

 

The term 'trans', today's term, originates from the term 'transition', which many people who claim to be trans do not do. Not just physically, but socially. It's a term that's grown very distant from it's true meaning.

 

As I always say, all transsexuals are transgender, but not all transgender folk are transsexuals.

 

That being said, there are other gender identities on the spectrum that fall under the category of trans, and other gender identities that do not but often are mistakenly miscategorized beneath the umbrella.

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huh thats fair enough. im sry that uve had bad experiences with ppl who id as trans i really do not like inner-community fighting like that it never does any good :\

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How was that transphobic?

It wasn't.

 

Gender is not sex, gender is what you identify as (bigender, trigender, agender and more)

Sex is what you were born as or transitioned to (male, female, intersex).

Edited by DangerDragon

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Am I the only trans person who is uncomfortable with using "natal ____"? Personally it just feels like people saying "well you're this gender now but you were born ____." No, I was born male. I was assigned the wrong gender at birth.

 

I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong to use it- if it's what you're comfortable with, all power to you! But am I weird for not feeling comfortable with the term at all?

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How was that transphobic?

It wasn't.

 

Gender is not sex, gender is what you identify as (bigender, trigender, agender)

Sex is what you were born as or transitioned to (male, female, intersex).

I've been skimming a lot of the stuff in this thread that has been quoted from other sources so forgive me if I'm wrong but I thought this has been explained with links/quotes.

 

Even if not, you are having people who are not cis telling you something hurts them. They *shouldn't have to* provide a ton of sources, explain over and over, etc, in order for you to understand that if someone says you are hurtful to them, you are hurtful to them.

 

(Also it was said, in the same post I believe you're referring to, that stating "sex does not equal gender" over and over isn't going to be wanted, so I'm not sure why this is continuing.)

 

----------------

 

The term 'trans', today's term, originates from the term 'transition', which many people who claim to be trans do not do. Not just physically, but socially. It's a term that's grown very distant from it's true meaning.

 

I know Wikipedia isn't a super-great source, but it says that "cis" and "trans" are from Latin, meaning "on this side of" (cis) and "across from"/"on the other side of" (trans). I do know that in chemistry, cis and trans molecules have different structures that are reflected in the names.

Edited by diaveborn

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For the lack of better explanation, sex is the description of elements of your body build. Sex is no different from, say, being strongly built or being a redhead. It does not tell anyone what you're like as a person or identify as, no more than me having green eyes has to do with my hobbies, aspirations in career or favourite food.

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Am I the only trans person who is uncomfortable with using "natal ____"? Personally it just feels like people saying "well you're this gender now but you were born ____." No, I was born male. I was assigned the wrong gender at birth.

 

I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong to use it- if it's what you're comfortable with, all power to you! But am I weird for not feeling comfortable with the term at all?

Natal male/female is proper terminology used by psychiatrists, and is also scientifically correct, just as 'biological male/female' is.

 

Unless an individual is intersex and assigned the wrong dominant secondary sex traits ( or rather, they determine what said individual will be before they've even developed them ), that is incorrectly assigning gender/sex at birth.

 

Natal sex is not gender identity. Natal sex is physical sex- genitalia, biology, etc. Traditionally 'male' and 'female' sexed individuals have differing physical forms, not just (like mentioned) genitalia or breasts ( as natal males have these as well ), but things such as organs ( or lack thereof ) and so forth.

 

Completely disregarding natal sex can and is quite problematic, and in my (informed) opinion, should not be fed into.

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I know Wikipedia isn't a super-great source, but it says that "cis" and "trans" are from Latin, meaning "on this side of" (cis) and "across from"/"on the other side of" (trans). I do know that in chemistry, cis and trans molecules have different structures that are reflected in the names.

Across from/on the other side of is still going from one thing to the other, technically, which once again falls under the the whole 'trans=transition' thing. Transitioned/ing gender, transitioned/ing sex.

 

This entire gender/sex identity thing has become very, very different ( and not exactly for the better ) within the last five to ten years. Being 'trans' is not an experiment, it is part of a lifestyle. It's a mature topic and subject matter and should be treated as such, and yet many people ( I'm not saying all ) who are incredibly mis/uninformed and/or immature are labeling themselves as trans without ( from what I can see ) fully understanding what that means.

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Am I the only trans person who is uncomfortable with using "natal ____"? Personally it just feels like people saying "well you're this gender now but you were born ____." No, I was born male. I was assigned the wrong gender at birth.

 

I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong to use it- if it's what you're comfortable with, all power to you! But am I weird for not feeling comfortable with the term at all?

Yeah, it smells of the same thing that "biological sex" comes from. So I agree it also makes me personally uncomfortable.

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Glad to hear! Great that the second time around went smoother than expected. xP

It was a huge relief that I didn't have to justify myself to a health professional. I haven't had the best experiences with them in the past for an unrelated medical condition which led to years of trauma and avoidance. They're intimidating enough to me without having to add the feeling of not being taken seriously to the scenario.

 

Am I the only trans person who is uncomfortable with using "natal ____"?

I too, am not comfortable with using natal _____ or biological _____. I prefer assigned _____ at birth or _____ assigned at birth myself.

 

How was that transphobic?

It wasn't.

 

Gender is not sex, gender is what you identify as (bigender, trigender, agender and more)

Sex is what you were born as or transitioned to (male, female, intersex).

It's exclusionary to non binary people. Some countries allow for non binary and intersex people to have an unspecified marker on their passports and government identification.

 

My country is one of these. Sources:

https://www.passports.gov.au/passportsexpla...exdoborpob.aspx

https://www.ag.gov.au/Publications/Pages/Au...xandGender.aspx

 

Transition is also a long, often grueling process that can take years and large sums of money to complete, even if the person has trans inclusive healthcare available to them. Not everyone can afford or wants to undergo hormonal or surgical transition. By denying them the right to have the markers that align with their gender, they are being treated as less than those who identify with, or are comfortable with their assigned markers.

Edited by VampiricOmen

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Across from/on the other side of is still going from one thing to the other, technically, which once again falls under the the whole 'trans=transition' thing. Transitioned/ing gender, transitioned/ing sex.

Oh right, of course! Thanks for explaining :)

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Isn't it trans-erasive to deny male and female differences, though? To not acknowledge the general differences of biology without that terminology would pretty much mean that the words 'trans' and 'cis' would essentially serve no purpose, and would cease to have any meaning at all, since they are in themselves referring to disparity or lack thereof between sex and gender.

 

No matter how many times I hear 'sex=gender', it will never make logical sense to me. I understand the idea behind it, but it's just so counterintuitive, IMO.

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Ironically, I've more often seen people claim sex==gender when they're trying to insist that sex does determine gender (thus, if your body is male, you're automatically a man, etc). Seeing people try to insist that to mean the exact opposite here is strange, certainly. And also speaks of odd kind of aggressive and borderline hateful denial, which is by no means healthy. (I'll refrain from making comparisons here, since that'd probably step on someone's toes.)

The structural characteristics of your body - which is what sex is - are an objective fact. Some people are male sex, some people are female sex, and some people are intersex or otherwise nondistinct sex.

A much more logical and healthier way to approach the matter would be to acknowledge the fact that your body is the way it is, but to also know that the structure your body does not define who you are as a person.

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When people assert that sex does not equal gender, it encourages the notion that we, even with reconstruction surgery, will not be considered the sex we are aligning our bodies to. There are people that do not want, or cannot afford surgery or hormonal therapy, and they are often shunted to the side and considered "not trans enough" by people within our own community and the community at large. In my opinion, their identity is just as valid as mine or anyone else's who seeks medical treatment.

In this post I meant "When people assert that gender does not equal sex, it encourages the notion that we, even with reconstruction surgery, will not be considered the sex we are aligning our bodies to."

 

Having people insist that sex is an undeniable fact of my body that I cannot change is incredibly invalidating and hurtful.

 

I am going to withdraw from this conversation for the time being, perhaps for the duration of this discussion.

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We, even with reconstruction surgery, will not be considered the sex we are aligning our bodies to.
I'd say that if an individual has altered their physical body to the point where it matches a phenotype which it did not start out with, then, well, that body does objectively have the phenotype it was altered into. A person can effectively have their sex changed in this way, and we can only hope the process will become cheaper, easier, and more - for the lack of better term - "complete" as time goes on. For those who do actually want to change their body, of course. Some people might not want to, for various reasons, and that does not make them any "less" whatever identity they've decided to go with.

 

And in the end, sex is still only the structure of your body. Nothing more. It does not define you. It does not mean you "should" be anything. Certain traits of your sex might make themselves annoyingly apparent every now and then, but as far as your person goes, it's about as defining as your eye color.

 

(Heck, even gender does not mean you "should" have a specific set of preferences. There are no "girl" things or "boy" things...)

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I'd say that if an individual has altered their physical body to the point where it matches a phenotype which it did not start out with, then, well, that body does objectively have the phenotype it was altered into. A person can effectively have their sex changed in this way, and we can only hope the process will become cheaper, easier, and more - for the lack of better term - "complete" as time goes on. For those who do actually want to change their body, of course. Some people might not want to, for various reasons, and that does not make them any "less" whatever identity they've decided to go with.

 

And in the end, sex is still only the structure of your body. Nothing more. It does not define you. It does not mean you "should" be anything. Certain traits of your sex might make themselves annoyingly apparent every now and then, but as far as your person goes, it's about as defining as your eye color.

 

(Heck, even gender does not mean you "should" have a specific set of preferences. There are no "girl" things or "boy" things...)

This.

 

---

 

You can change your sex, with sex change surgery.

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My biological sex is female, but I've almost always leaned toward being more gender neutral or even male. I don't mind people I know well calling me a girl, but around strangers I prefer to be call them/he. In most of my dreams I'm also a male. (Don't know if that really means anything?) Sometimes the unfair treatment and stereotypes against females that are still around for the most part in the state I live in make me wish I was male. No, I don't want a boyfriend, I don't want to get married, I don't want kids, and I certainly don't want to be treated like a slave by a husband, which a lot of men around here do. I wish my extended family would stop expecting this stuff of me. Just to be clear, there's no problem with wanting to get married and have a family, its just not my kind of thing. smile.gif

 

Not that there isn't unfair treatment and stereotypes against males, either. While females are expected to be fragile and incapable, men are expected to power through all the feelings they have, never show weakness, and always be "macho". Here in the united states, sexism isn't a huge deal as in some places, but the stereotypical roles of women and men are still barely being broken in the minds of the citizens.

 

The point is, I guess, that gender stereotypes have been part of my life for a long time, and that, among just feeling a little more male deep down, they've pushed me to be uncomfortable with my gender and wish I was a male, or even better, had no gender.

 

Hopefully this isn't offensive to anyone or anything like that, and that its on topic enough? I tried.

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Not that there isn't unfair treatment and stereotypes against males, either. While females are expected to be fragile and incapable, men are expected to power through all the feelings they have, never show weakness, and always be "macho". Here in the united states, sexism isn't a huge deal as in some places, but the stereotypical roles of women and men are still barely being broken in the minds of the citizens.

Sexism - and sexist gender roles - certainly still are a thing, and rather oppressive in their nature. I've seen a fair share of it - feeling rather strongly "woman" as is, but being barely like or into any of the stereotypically "women things", I'm perhaps more opposed than the average individual to the notion of "boy" things and "girl" things...

 

I've seen little children in shops go "I want it!", and parents reply with "No, that's a girl/boy thing, but you're boy/girl, I'll buy you X instead." It's sad.

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I've seen little children in shops go "I want it!", and parents reply with "No, that's a girl/boy thing, but you're boy/girl, I'll buy you X instead." It's sad.

I think most people are guilty of doing something similar at least once in their lives. It may have been unintentional or said in the heat of the moment, but the thing is that we do unconsciously stereotype and gender roles are even a part of the language we speak. Even as I type this, I can think of many times I've told my brother to 'man up', or 'stop being such a princess' or something similar when I'm annoyed at his whining or tantrums. I feel bad about it, but the thing is, 'man up' is the one phrase that really fits what I feel in that moment. I just really wish he would 'man up' and I have no idea how to phrase it otherwise. It's a phrase that means to toughen up or stop being weak about it and it's kind of sad that I can't even stop myself from saying it, even though it has an obvious tie to stereotypical masculinity.

 

Language is both an obstacle and a helpful tool for conveying ideas. But our prejudices are also deeply entrenched in language. It's nearly second nature for some to associate certain words with genders, or ignore some genders altogether. For example, the pronouns in the English language. Pronouns were a closed class of words, making it very hard to add to. Of course, things have changed now (though my iPad doesn't recognize 'xie' as a word yet), but before, genderqueer wasn't even a part of it! Or, consider the word 'girly'. It is a legitimate word, and it's meaning contains a heap of stereotypes. It's hard to watch out for these verbal traps, because no matter how supportive I want to be, talking is like walking through a minefield sometimes. It can be easier just going along with it, but sometimes it's painful when you do so. When I try to fight against it though, it's like trying to pick nail varnish off my skin or something. I find it hard, because sometimes it's like Language itself is discriminating against me. It's especially hard for cisgendered people though, I believe, because we are much less sensitive towards such things, we notice them less because we've been considered 'normal' by society and we don't experience what nonbinary/genderqueer people experience.

 

As a cisgendered girl/woman, I've been discriminated against, by my own family no less. In China, especially before this decade, female infanticide was very common because people preferred having AMAB children. My fraternal grandfather wanted my mother to abort me, then he didn't care about me for fifteen years, and all of sudden I'm older, able to think for myself and help out and he suddenly wants to be friendly. Luckily, my mother was never that kind of parent. She bought me the so-called boy's toys as well as the so-called girl's toys, didn't care when I went around and arm wrestled every boy in my class into submission, and encouraged me to play with everyone and anyone regardless of who they were. I do tend to sympathize with other biological women more than with biological men, and perhaps that's not very good of me, but I just can't help it. It's always been the maternal side of the family that has supported me, that I can relate to.

 

Either way, it's a struggle for both parties, just as stereotypes target men, women, and everyone inbetween and outside of the spectrum. I can sometimes be unintentionally prejudice or insensitive because the language and environment that I am used to is biased and I've never struggled with my gender. I'm so used to the stereotyping, the unfairness, yet I have never experienced true grief because of it, that I've become somewhat desensitized. So please do excuse me, us, when/if I, we, unintentionally offend you, any of you. I don't believe what was mentioned above is good thing, I just think that we are, inevitably, going to come into contact with phrases or words that are biased towards one gender or another. And we are, also, quite likely to offend someone (unintentionally or not) with such language. So we all have to watch out for it, respond to it, and recognize it. We can't let it get under our skin, because whether we like it or not, when people aren't careful, it happens. It is very sad, but before we can change it, it will happen.

 

Yeah, sorry for the long rant... And really, really, sorry if I've offended anyone by it! I just wanted to put my side of things out there. I actually just wanted to ask, how exactly do you pronounce 'Xie' or 'Xir'? I have a Genderfluid friend and I want to work those words into my vocabulary. I'm not sure if she prefers 'they' or something else, but 'they' is really confusing since xie shares xir name with another one of my friends. I'm currently referring to Xie as 'her', since she's AFAB, but I think she'd prefer me referring to her as xie... Aaaaand... There I go again referring to xie as her... As you can probably guess, I don't have much experience being around non-cisgendered people.

EDIT: NVM, they prefer to be referred to as 'they'. And I now know how to pronounce 'xie'

Edited by SoiledLove

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i'm cisgender but personally it disgusts me how gendered everything is in our society these days... also the way that many nonbinary people are treated is just generally unfair and ridiculing and it honestly they're just people, and their gender is their business. i hate when idiots try to shove their beliefs down everyone's throats

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I'm a cis girl. I don't know if it's possible at all, but I think I go between periods of grey asexuality and then I return to normal. Sometimes I start feeling romantic attachments to people that have more to do with how close I've gotten to them. But I can be attracted by the physical on occasion. I don't know, but for the most part, definitely cis. I do respect all sexualities and gender identities, and I believe it is important to allow everyone to be themselves without any sort of discrimination involved.

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yeah, English is definitely in desperate need of a widely used singular gender neutral pronoun.

"they/them" is workable, to a point, but it's ridiculous that there isn't an accepted better workaround

"It" exists - but no-one seems to like it.

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"He" used to be gender-neutral in the past (as seen in some older texts - if the gender/sex was unknown or unimportant, "he" was used, and if need be, the sex/gender later clarified).

 

The simplest solution I see would be to actually do away with "she" and all other singular pronouns for living beings, and have "he" just refer to "this one individual". Since I feel many would disagree with repurposing an existing pronoun (by falling back to its occasional archaic use) and doing away with everything else, "ze" works, too - if only we could make it the default and gradually do away with all the old ones... (I prefer the z-set because it makes more phonetic sense than the x-set ... x is too strongly a hard "ks" sound and xe tends to furthermore read as "xenon" in my mind...)

 

There is no need - or even use - to sexed/gendered pronouns - those just add to frustration and social mishaps. My native language already doesn't have sexed/gendered pronouns, has never had them, and it sure does it spare a lot of awkwardness. I also feel that gendered pronouns in very tiny ways reinforce prejudices... We typically don't start by introducing people by (for instance) their race - why on Earth should we start by introducing them by their sex or gender? I certainly don't treat people different based on their sex or gender. People are people first.

 

(Names are needed so we can refer to one very specific person in everyday conversations - we pretty much never need to identify a person specifically by their sex/gender before anything else, unless it's a dating site. I also find "one less thing to remember about someone who is not someone you meet on a regular basis" a very good thing - remembering names is already *difficult* to many. People who have known me for years still mix up my first name every now and then, and my first name literally has less than a handful of letters in it in addition to being fairly common. You could probably learn the pronouns to your friends and family, but not the tens of thousands of other people - including those whose any name you might have never even heard, let alone remembered - you have to occasionally refer to every year.)

 

~Edit undone; decided on a different solution~

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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