Gender and Gender Identity

[KageSora]

I just can't bring myself to understand how people can honestly still think that there are just 2 genders and that's that - black and white, no gray.

 

But a lot of people do think like that, and it's the most frustrating thing.

Simple.

 

Lack of education and exposure to people who are outside the male/female binary.

 

 

It's sad, but it's what it is. By increasing awareness of the fact that male and female aren't the only genders we can increase acceptance of those outside the binary, hopefully.

[dullfangs]

http://arcanebarrage.tumblr.com/post/55825...g-flight-rising

 

A little off the current track, but some big shot (Thrage) on the popular game, Flight Rising, has made some pretty transphobic comments. In short, he completely dismisses transgenders (he calls them "mangled" among other things), says pansexuality isn't real and that anyone claiming to be pan is just a bisexual looking to be "super special", and that there are only two genders, male and female.

 

And this game helps pay his bills.

 

I figure this topic would be better suited to discussing the gender identity side of this issue, but I posted it in the gay marriage rights first because I'm a derp and forgot this topic existed, too.

 

I'm pretty disgusted by this.

 

I mean, I'm a pansexual with an agender partner. And I have several transgendered friends. Just wow. How can someone be so ignorant.

people calling identities fake or trying to be "special" are people who are too stupid to understand, huge biggots, and most of the time super immature

i'd ignore everything he says but unfortunately it isn't that easy since he isn't the only one with that horrible outlook

[Kila]

He'd be easier to ignore if he was just some random ***.

 

But he's an admin or coder from Flight Rising (I don't play, so I don't know which), and he's making money. It's quite possible he's earned money from the gay community, transgenders and pansexuals included.

[dullfangs]

 

it's best to stay away from everything he does- if there's a way to get people to stop buying into his , id be on that, or maybe send him a message politely educating him

[dullfangs]

2 artists: Undel and Xhaztol

Undel = neondragon = Jessica Peffer

 

2 coders: Akiri and Thrage

Thrage = the bigoted one

 

All 4 are the dev team/admins.

 

That said, he has the right to an opinion, but he should really not be the PR face of FR. I strongly disagree with his opinions.

mmm, he has the technical right to opinion, but it's an oppressive opinion that hurts people in the long run and shouldn't be shrugged off

[Kila]

True, he has a right to his opinion, but when that opinion belittles a group of people it perpetuates and affirms those beliefs in others. It's like laughing at a rape joke.

 

Those kids of "opinions" are shared by transphobic individuals. By people who commit hate crimes against transgendered people. To quote ghostly on the FR forum,

 

I just want to reiterate that this is not just about having opinions. This is about having dehumanizing opinions that are commonly cited behind real life hate crimes against trans* individuals.

 

If it was relegated to just commentary on pansexual individuals (which I am) I would not be nearly as adamant in my position. I feel that he has completely misinterpreted the point of the pansexual identity but if he'd left it at that, I'd roll my eyes and carry on.

 

But to call trans* individuals mutilated and "not real"? That is several steps too far. That is hateful and nasty. That is a dangerous mindset. He is free to say and believe what he wants and we are all free to point out when the things shared with the public are actively dangerous and disturbing, which is exactly what we are doing here. This is not meant to insult or call out anyone but to try and clarify why this is not just about "different opinions."

 

He claims to be supportive of GBLT rights.

 

Yet he says transgenders do not exist and are mutilating themselves. That's hate speech, plain and simple. He should be fired. If one of my coworkers acted in such a way, they'd be fired on the spot.

[dullfangs]

@kila can you really be fired for this sort of thing? i'm definitely keeping that in mind

[KageSora]

@kila can you really be fired for this sort of thing? i'm definitely keeping that in mind

I believe it will depend on where you work.

 

In some case, you could be fired for making the working environment feel hostile to co-workers and/or clients if you are open about such things.

 

Other places would treat that as hate speech and will fire you for doing such things--the same way they would if you were to talk about how all [insert race of choice here] people are [insert really nasty things here] or something.

[Victini]

wait so basically he's saying he supports LGBT rights but he doesn't support transgendered people and he thinks theyre 'mutilated' and 'not real'??

does he even understand what LGBT stands for..??

[KageSora]

wait so basically he's saying he supports LGBT rights but he doesn't support transgendered people and he thinks theyre 'mutilated' and 'not real'??

does he even understand what LGBT stands for..??

It's entirely possible he's just a "bandagon supporter" who doesn't actually have any idea what he's supposedly supporting just that it has something to do with gays and lesbians and not really understanding the wider community and is mostly just doing it because it's "cool" and "in" to be pro-equality instead of supporting the LGBTQIA/etc. community because it's the right thing to do.

[dullfangs]

I believe it will depend on where you work.

 

In some case, you could be fired for making the working environment feel hostile to co-workers and/or clients if you are open about such things.

 

Other places would treat that as hate speech and will fire you for doing such things--the same way they would if you were to talk about how all [insert race of choice here] people are [insert really nasty things here] or something.

knowing where i live (florida aka living hell) they'd probably find a way to get out of it. i just pray we see a huge decrease in cissexism/transphobia in my lifetime

[MasterWeavile898]

I just can't bring myself to understand how people can honestly still think that there are just 2 genders and that's that - black and white, no gray.

Completely separate from the main discussion line, but the idea of a grey goes completely against one of my core philosophies, different kind of grey, involving compromise and middle ground and stuff, totally unrelated, but the way this is worded just brought it to mind.

 

 

Anyway, I have some questions I was asking elsewhere that didn't get answered yet, and they fit better in this thread anyway. They may not make much sense since hey were partially in context to that thread.

 

The one I was on:

How does one know they are transgender?

[dullfangs]

Completely separate from the main discussion line, but the idea of a grey goes completely against one of my core philosophies, different kind of grey, involving compromise and middle ground and stuff, totally unrelated, but the way this is worded just brought it to mind.

 

 

Anyway, I have some questions I was asking elsewhere that didn't get answered yet, and they fit better in this thread anyway. They may not make much sense since hey were partially in context to that thread.

 

The one I was on:

How does one know they are transgender?

you simply know. something feels wrong usually. body dysphoria, feeling like your parts are wrong, being uncomfortable with the gender you were assigned and feeling more comfortable with identifying as a different one. that's just the basics, at least

[TikindiDragon]

But two of the admins have apologized and said what he did was not cool and that they were gonna take action so I'm happy about that. :3

Nice to hear.

 

I guess due to things recently 'm not actually all that surpised. Or even all that upset. It's just... welcome to my world, guys. You'd be suprised how common that base level of bigotry is, even amongst the LGB community.

 

@ MasterWeavile

That's a bit of a difficult one to answer - because for me the knowledge was there before I was old enough to think it through logically. But ask yourself this

 

How did you, as a child, know you were a boy?

 

Do not refer to genitals, because children of that age are not yet aware that those structures are not yet fixed. Children of 4 are not yet aware that gender is 'fixed', but most will tell you they are either a boy or a girl.

[MasterWeavile898]

@ MasterWeavile

That's a bit of a difficult one to answer - because for me the knowledge was there before I was old enough to think it through logically. But ask yourself this

 

How did you, as a child, know you were a boy?

Honestly, I based it upon hair length, which is why my grandmother, her hair fairly short, always confused me, I knew she was a girl, but she looked like a boy to me. That's just what I knew at the time.

[Kila]

I believe it will depend on where you work.

 

In some case, you could be fired for making the working environment feel hostile to co-workers and/or clients if you are open about such things.

 

Other places would treat that as hate speech and will fire you for doing such things--the same way they would if you were to talk about how all [insert race of choice here] people are [insert really nasty things here] or something.

Pretty much this.

 

Especially if you work in a more corporate setting, this sort of speech is taken incredibly seriously.

 

@MasterWeavile: A lot of trans* people feel dysphoria. Their physical body doesn't match what they feel in their minds. My MtF (male to female) friend has always said that she never really felt right in her own skin until she came to the conclusion that she was in fact a female.

 

My partner is agender, or androynge. He identifies as neither sex, prefers gender neutral or male pronouns (because female pronouns don't feel right), and physically passes as androgynous.

 

I, on the otherhand, am a CIS female. My sex matches my gender. And in spite of my many masculine personality traits, I am 100% female and have always known as such because it just feels right.

 

It's not something that can easily be explained, and everyone will feel differently/figure it out in their own way. The examples above are just that, examples.

[MasterWeavile898]

Oh, that makes sense. Oh boy, now I am confused.

 

So say hypothetically I knew someone who told me they wished they were a girl when they were like ten, and hypothetically I knew nothing about trans* issues and brushed it off as them just being weird. Hypothetically, would they be transgender?

 

To clarify, this is completely hypothetical, ignore my siggy.

Edited July 19, 2013 by MasterWeavile898

[Switch]

The one I was on:

How does one know they are transgender?

Well for me it was most prominent when I hit puberty and my breasts started growing and things. I started crying because I felt like that wasn't supposed to happen, I wasn't supposed to be female, but I didn't know what being trans* even was at the time. I never brought it up and kind of buried it in my head because I thought it was weird or wrong to want to be a different gender. But now I'm completely comfortable with it. ovo

Just my experience though.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Switch

[7Deadly$ins]

Oh, that makes sense. Oh boy, now I am confused.

 

So say hypothetically I knew someone who told me they wished they were a girl when they were like ten, and hypothetically I knew nothing about trans* issues and brushed it off as them just being weird. Hypothetically, would they be transgender?

 

To clarify, this is completely hypothetical, ignore my siggy.

They could be. I'm not sure, I'm not inside their head. In the same way that I inherently "know" that I'm female, trans people inherently know they are what they are, regardless of genitals.

[TikindiDragon]

Oh, that makes sense. Oh boy, now I am confused.

 

So say hypothetically I knew someone who told me they wished they were a girl when they were like ten, and hypothetically I knew nothing about trans* issues and brushed it off as them just being weird. Hypothetically, would they be transgender?

 

To clarify, this is completely hypothetical, ignore my siggy.

Hypothetically it's possible, if not probable.

 

The realisations hit at different times for different people. For many of us (myself included) it's attatched to some of our earliest memories. Both myself and an MtF friend of mine remember asking our parents why were weren't the other gender when very young (my Mum tells me I was 3 or 4 when I started asking to be called a "boy's name"). For others, the androgyny of childhood hasn't bothered them, but when puberty hits their minds start screaming that it's all kinds of wrong.

 

There is the difference between wishful thinking and deep-seated longing to bear in mind. I suppose most people must wonder what it would be like to be the other gender occasionally (especially if their societal gender roles are feeling restrictive - I know plenty of girls that say "Life would be so much easier if I was a man!" without actually wanting to *be* male, or identifying as such). If the person is 'wishing on a star', and coming up with 'I want to be a girl' every time though...

 

Being physically and genetically male has been top of my 'wish' list for as long as I can remember. Stars, genies, wells... anything I could wish on (or theorise about making wishes through) that was the one.

[MasterWeavile898]

I suppose I worded that wrong, hypothetically, they are telling me they want to be a girl, they don't know anything about sex (they must not watch television much) and just wish they were a girl, from what you are saying it sounds like they probably are. Hypothetically.

 

Hmm, I should ponder this, hypothetically.

[dullfangs]

I suppose I worded that wrong, hypothetically, they are telling me they want to be a girl, they don't know anything about sex (they must not watch television much) and just wish they were a girl, from what you are saying it sounds like they probably are. Hypothetically.

 

Hmm, I should ponder this, hypothetically.

to be frank, hypothetically, you should let your friend do the pondering. crossdressing and liking feminine things a transperson does not make. introduce the idea to them (hypothetically) but there can be a difference between wanting to be a gender, and feeling as you are that gender

 

[MasterWeavile898]

But this is hypothetical, so I have to do the pondering since hypothetically said friend does not exist. Hypothetically.

 

Wait no, I just said they hypothetically exist. Now I'm lost, I feel I'm still explaining things wring, it's late for me saying "hypothetical" every other word is confusing, so assume the following friend is hypothetical.

 

I have friend who wants to be a girl, they don't know about trans* issues and just assume that it's completely impossible and just decide to move on with life, if they realize later that they had a choice, but have already accepted that they are male (they think in male and female now, not boy and girl) and are just going to deal with it, what would you say they should do?

 

If that doesn't get my point across I'll just give up and move on to my next question. I am honestly trying to understand the issue.I am just going to stop talking now before I retype what I deleted a moment ago.

 

Oh, I just realized I said my pondering was hypothetical, I was pondering in real life whereas the friend was hypothetical. This is not some movie where my hypothetical scenario is a thinly disguised attempt at finding real life answers without saying that it has actually happened to me. But my pondering is real.

 

EDIT: Oh, I did kind of misread your post, the last sentence was answering my question.

Edited July 19, 2013 by MasterWeavile898

[7Deadly$ins]

Oh my goodness, just drop the pretense.

[Zovesta]

^ Agreed. Just kinda annoying now.

 

On the topic of the FR guy, am I the only one reminded of that Stephen Colbert LGBT bacon and tomato bit? If you can't view tumblr or whatever:

 

"Clearly, the LGBT agenda is barreling forward at full speed. At this rate, I may even have to learn what the last two letters of LGBT mean! I want to say... bacon and tomato?"

 

Hilariously true. Everybody has the Lesbian and Gay bit down and Bisexual and Transgender are just sort of there. Like "oh... you mean I'm supporting them, too?" And let's not even get into LGBTQIA, LGBTIH, or just plain LGBT+ and how many people know of it/support it.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Zovesta