Gender and Gender Identity

[7Deadly$ins]

No you wouldn't, you'd hide it, in order not to be banned.

Nope. While I've never called someone a Nazi before on here, I have been warned when things get heated and while I try to keep it civil, I say what I think.

 

That said I'm not here to argue semantics, I'm here to argue your asinine point that you have no genetic errors. All the things I listed were genetic errors. If you want me to list every single genetic error, several of which I am more than positive that you possess, we'll be here all night.

[_Z_]

Reminder:

Please attack the topic and not each other.

[Zovesta]

You have your physical sex, which is male, female, or intersex.  (Are there others?)

You have your gender, which is male, female, or other (lots of 'other' possibilities).

You have your gender expression, which is how you present yourself.  (kinds of clothes you wear, how you conform to society's view of your gender, etc.)

 

So, you can be physically female, for example.  Then, you can identify your gender as female as well if you're cisex.  However, your gender expression can be masculine if you prefer to partake in things your society generally associates with males, for example.  Or you can have a feminine gender expression if you prefer to partake in what your society generally associates with females.

I didn't know gender expression had its own category. Isn't that just like... tomboy/girly guy and the like, though? As I understood it, sex was your physical body, gender was how you viewed yourself and didn't rely on social norms of gender stereotypes, it's simply who you are. Sorry if I'm getting things messed up here, please correct me on this.

 

As an example, is this correct?:

Example person (EP) has a male body. (Physical sex) EP is a woman in mind, though. (Gender) In spite of being a woman in mind, she does not conform to the average female ideal and does show much interest in feminine things. (Gender expression??)

Edited March 25, 2013 by Zovesta

[Mtntopview]

Reminder:

Please attack the topic and not each other.

As you command

[KageSora]

I didn't know gender expression had its own category. Isn't that just like... tomboy/girly guy and the like, though? As I understood it, sex was your physical body, gender was how you viewed yourself and didn't rely on social norms of gender stereotypes, it's simply who you are. Sorry if I'm getting things messed up here, please correct me on this.

Like I said, it's complicated and I'm only going off what I've found, and that's not tons and tons of information.

 

I personally would assume that tomboy/"girly guy" would fall under that category.

 

From how I understand it, gender identity is the internal part--you feel male, female, or other (whatever that may be for a person). Gender expression is the outward reflection of that.

 

Generally, gender expression reflects the gender identity, but not always. Some people have a gender expression that doesn't match their identity--a female who identifies as female but has a masculine expression, for example. Or a very feminine male who identifies as male.

 

Transgender people typically attempt to have their expression match their identity, from what I understand. Mostly because generally speaking, people have their expression matching their identity.

 

EDIT: Ah, you edited while I was typing my reply.

 

As an example, is this correct?:

Example person (EP) has a male body. (Physical sex) EP is a woman in mind, though. (Gender) In spite of being a woman in mind, she does not conform to the average female ideal and does show much interest in feminine things. (Gender expression??)

Wait, I'm a little confused. Do you mean she doesn't conform to the female ideal but does show an interest in feminine things, or that she doesn't conform to the female ideal and does NOT show interest in feminine things?

 

Either way, the expression would be things like how she dresses, talks, holds herself when she walks/stands/sits, hairstyles, etc.

Edited March 25, 2013 by KageSora

[Mtntopview]

Nope. While I've never called someone a Nazi before on here, I have been warned when things get heated and while I try to keep it civil, I say what I think.

 

That said I'm not here to argue semantics, I'm here to argue your asinine point that you have no genetic errors. All the things I listed were genetic errors. If you want me to list every single genetic error, several of which I am more than positive that you possess, we'll be here all night.

Genetic error, or advantage? Those characteristics could benefit an individual, however gender confusion only causes chaos and confusion in the life of an individual, which is certainly not an advantage.

[Completely Different]

Genetic error, or advantage? Those characteristics could benefit an individual, however gender confusion only causes chaos and confusion in the life of an individual, which is certainly not an advantage.

Doesn't matter if its advantageous or not, its still an error. Any change from the "normal" (read: most common) genetic code is an error.

 

A lot of things cause confusion in the life of an individual- for example, romantic and sexual feelings. That doesn't mean they're bad. Furthermore, I'd say most of the conflict gender queer/gender fluid people have comes from others not understanding or saying they're "wrong" or "bad". Its not their fault, its society's.

 

 

[7Deadly$ins]

Genetic error, or advantage? Those characteristics could benefit an individual, however gender confusion only causes chaos and confusion in the life of an individual, which is certainly not an advantage.

I'd say most of that chaos comes from society, not an inherent value.

[Mtntopview]

Well in nature, such oddities would be isolated and destroyed, we humans are no different. We socially oust them because they are different, and I see nothing wrong with that because it is a evolutionary tactic for the survival of a species. By isolation and keeping them from reproducing, we (as a species) remove a certain defect from our genes.

[Zovesta]

Lol sorry I typo'd there, KageSora. I doesn't doesn't. But anyway, yeah, that's what I figured. As one can be a man/woman in mind without being feminine or masculine by society's standards... u_u I just didn't realize that gender expression got its own category, as I've always just thought it was more about your personality than the others.

 

Mtntopview: Ah, yes, I do enjoy a nice witch burning when people threaten my standards, too. =u= Let's all shun people that obviously don't have enough problems already because they dare to be born differently!

Edited March 25, 2013 by Zovesta

[7Deadly$ins]

Well in nature, such oddities would be isolated and destroyed, we humans are no different. We socially oust them because they are different, and I see nothing wrong with that because it is a evolutionary tactic for the survival of a species. By isolation and keeping them from reproducing, we (as a species) remove a certain defect from our genes.

Things in nature are not ousted because they are different. Then we would never see people with any of the genetic variations I've been talking about.

[Mtntopview]

Things in nature are not ousted because they are different. Then we would never see people with any of the genetic variations I've been talking about.

Wrong, albinos are ousted. Runts and overly strong ones are ousted. The more average a creature is, the more likely it is to pass its genes on. And the changes that occur are minute, or advantageous, and survive via natural selection via the environment. Being white must have had some advantage in order to have succeeded, as did blond hair and blue eyes. The gender issue is not an advantage, and probably would be purged. However since it is a mutation it appears over and over again.

[Completely Different]

We've socially ousted tons of people for being "different", because from an evolutionary standpoint, "different" people are more likely to harm us and carry diseases we haven't evolved to fight. Its the same reason that people demonize other groups, which often shows up as racism, religious intolerance and homophobia. That doesn't make it right.

 

Considering how over the past century society has become more and more accepting of all of these things- including different gender identities- just goes to show that humans can overcome some of our more illogical instincts in favour of tolerance that benefits everyone. After all, there are plenty of cis individuals, myself included, who will happily stand up for people with other gender identities.

 

And if we're looking at what's best for the genetic diversity of the planet, I really don't think gender identities harm our reproductive potential. Nor do I think that at a population of 7 billion does it matter very much.

 

 

edit:

Being Caucasion does have an advantage. In colder, cloudier climates, reduced melanin in the skin allows more vitamin D to be produced from sunlight, and there's less of a need to protect from sunburns, dark skin was lost.

 

Gender identity, however, is probably a neutral trait, considering how there are whole societies that accept more than a simple male/female dichotomy.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Completely Different

[Mtntopview]

We've socially ousted tons of people for being "different", because from an evolutionary standpoint, "different" people are more likely to harm us and carry diseases we haven't evolved to fight. Its the same reason that people demonize other groups, which often shows up as racism, religious intolerance and homophobia. That doesn't make it right.

 

Considering how over the past century society has become more and more accepting of all of these things- including different gender identities- just goes to show that humans can overcome some of our more illogical instincts in favour of tolerance that benefits everyone. After all, there are plenty of cis individuals, myself included, who will happily stand up for people with other gender identities.

 

And if we're looking at what's best for the genetic diversity of the planet, I really don't think gender identities harm our reproductive potential. Nor do I think that at a population of 7 billion does it matter very much.

A excellent point. I still stand by my views, but I have learned a few things, thank you. I thinks it has been a good night (I spread my views and learned more about this subject), and wish you a good night, as I must take some time for rest.

 

Bye!

[7Deadly$ins]

Wrong, albinos are ousted. Runts and overly strong ones are ousted. The more average a creature is, the more likely it is to pass its genes on. And the changes that occur are minute, or advantageous, and survive via natural selection via the environment. Being white must have had some advantage in order to have succeeded, as did blond hair and blue eyes. The gender issue is not an advantage, and probably would be purged. However since it is a mutation it appears over and over again.

Completely wrong. Let's look at some bacteria.

 

Bacteria colony 1 can only eat food item A. However, one day a random mutation occurs which allows one single bacteria to be able to digest food item A as well as B. Food is now more plentiful for this one single bacterium, but it is the odd one out. It is not average, but it will survive to pass on it's genes, particularly if something happens to the supply of food item A.

 

Being genetically "average" has nothing to do with it.

 

 

[Dragonhide]

Since when did we decide it's a genetic anomaly?

And even if it is, it's not necessarily a disadvantage - if it occurred in other animals other than humans (I don't know if it does or not), it wouldn't necessarily lead to their deaths. I read that side-blotched lizards have males that are perfectly fine with mating with either gender, and they are still alive and functioning.

A similar thing happens with ruff birds.

 

On a side note, not all mutations are disadvantageous. Sickle-cell anaemia is a mutation that can kill people (it's where your red blood cells 'sickle' or are crescent-shaped). But people who have it have a far better chance of withstanding maleria, because the maleria protist-things can't survive very well in sickled cells (correct me if this was wrong; this is forth-form bio being regurgitated)

[KageSora]

Wrong, albinos are ousted. Runts and overly strong ones are ousted. The more average a creature is, the more likely it is to pass its genes on. And the changes that occur are minute, or advantageous, and survive via natural selection via the environment. Being white must have had some advantage in order to have succeeded, as did blond hair and blue eyes. The gender issue is not an advantage, and probably would be purged. However since it is a mutation it appears over and over again.

So, by your reasoning anybody with a disability should be prevented from breeding. Also, because not being white is a disadvantage in the USA because of racism, PoC should be prevented from breeding.

 

Actually, by your logic... Only healthy white males should be allowed to breed, since that's the only inherently advantageous combination in a lot of people's eyes! So science should find a way to make females obsolete since being female is a social disadvantage and all thanks to rape culture.

 

You know, we should also then drop all programs to help the sick or injured. Get rid if hospitals, too, since bein too ill or injured to take care of yourself is usually a death sentence in nature. Also we should stop research into things like curing cancer, because if you get cancer from a genetic predisposition you should die because your genes aren't fit. Also we should kill their offspring to be sure they don't breed and pass on those bad genes.

 

Only... That's not good logic. Humans are not on the same levels as most other animals. The ONLY reason things like race or disability or gender issues are disadvantages is purely a social one.

 

We have evolved to the point where, unlike other animals, we don't have to constantly fight off predators or search for resources. We have the time and resources to care for people with illnesses or injuries or to treat those of other races or gender identities as equal.

 

Not to mention, as I said, gender is recognized differently in different cultures. So what may be "bad" in one is acceptable or normal in another. So, why should one culture treat them as bad when they're normal and accepted in another? They're still human, no matter if you view gender anomalies as mutations or errors or just a natural part of life.

 

HOW you view it shouldn't matter--it does not and never will change the fact that transgender or those outside the male/female gender binary are still human and deserve to be treated as such.

[CaduceusCade]

Female, went through a six year period where I felt extremely sure I was trans. A rather strongly traumatic experience which I'd rather not discuss left me questioning whether or not I was, in fact, trans, and I spent another year and a half agonizing over that. I've finally reached the point where I think I might be genderfluid/genderqueer but I really just don't know. I've determined by now though, that it's not the crisis (at least for me) that I thought it was.

 

Personally, I became more comfortable when I stopped letting whatever my gender was define me. YMMV

[keijaidyyn]

I think there would be a lot more acceptance if there was more understanding.

^ This is very true.

 

Personally I am female physically and use feminine pronouns, but I don't strongly identify as either gender... It's not like I'm necessarily uncomfortable with my own body (though certain parts of being female are certainly annoying), but it's just never really... mattered. I'm a bi-romantic demisexual who hasn't found the right one yet (though I thought I had in highschool... that didn't play out at all), so sex has kind of been a non-issue my entire life. Some days I feel more female, some more male, but never particularly strongly either way.

 

It probably has a lot to do with the fact that I was abused by several of my peers as a child and ended up as a paranoid wreck for several years. The first friends who ever really managed to bring me out of my shell as a teenager were all male, two of which were gay (one flamboyantly, though the other one actually took me a couple of months to figure out) so I spent a lot of time just hanging out with the guys and came to understand homosexuality and just sexuality in general a lot better than my religious family ever taught me and realised I was okay with the concept that not everyone is cis, and that it ultimately doesn't matter what I am to the people who make a real difference in my life.

Edited March 25, 2013 by keijaidyyn

[ShinyTomato]

It took me quite awhile to understand the gender binary -- then I say it's pretty much widespread European culture removing and/or destroying and/or trying to destroy other views of it.

[KageSora]

I understand the binary, and I always got it since I grew up with it, but I also understand being on different parts of the spectrum and that it is a spectrum.

 

I found the idea of not being exclusively male or female--and of being a different gender than your sex--a fairly easy concept to grasp.

 

I mean, I tend to have a pretty laid-back view of things, but even when I wasn't so open I didn't find the concept hard to understand--just that I didn't necessarily like it/thought it was wrong.

 

But, then I got educated on the matter and don't much care anymore so long as you're not actively hurting another person.

 

I like the whole "gender is a spectrum" thing a hell of a lot more than the male/female binary I grew up with. I feel much more comfortable with the idea of being genderfluid than I do being exclusively female.

 

So I'm glad I got educated on the matter.

 

Really, I find that learning about it is a liberating thing--you realize it's natural and then you no longer have to keep carrying that hate or distrust or disgust or confusion around with you. You can just shrug it off, whatever makes them most comfortable, and go on about your business.

 

I like being more open much more~ I just find being open-minded about things in general makes life a hell of a lot simpler and more enjoyable. I don't have to agree with everything, or like it, but I also don't have to carry around those negative feelings if I just accept that some people are different from me.

 

As long as they're not engaging in anything illegal and that everybody involved is fully consenting to what's going on... To be honest, I'm pretty much willing to accept just about anything, no matter how weird or strange or ed up it seems at first glance (or, hell, even when you have a deeper understanding of the cultural reasons behind something or the psychological reasons, or whatever other reasons there are).

[Zovesta]

Indeed. Trans used to be a confusing concept for me. My sister thought she was trans for awhile, and while the rest of my family referred to her as "she", I did my best to call her "it" (she herself told us to use the term, not "they"). That was pretty much my whole experience with it, and even after my sister pretty much declared herself cis, my family's negative outlook made it all the more confusing to me.

 

I think it was someone on this board who explained what it would feel like. I've always had a grasp of the gender binary (but not that deep of one, as before I didn't even consider gender as anything really more than interchangeable with sex), but not what it could feel like, which, IMO, was a pretty big part of the acceptance.

 

Gender fluid, I'm not so sure I understand that. But I do understand that it is a real thing and should be treated as such. It's not like they need my stamp of approval and understanding anyway hgfds I'll just refer to them however they want me to and continue on like I normally do.

 

Still doing my best to understand and to, most of all, not be too offensive?? >_> if you aren't hurting anything other than insecure people's security bubble, then i'm ok with it, just tell me if i'm being awful or something

[KageSora]

I can't speak for other people who use the genderfluid label, but for me...

 

I don't always feel exclusively one gender. Sometimes I feel like I'm female. Sometimes I feel male. Sometimes I feel some kind of between the two/mix of the two.

 

My preferred pronouns shift depending on how I feel at the time in terms of gender.

 

I mostly just use genderfluid because it explains that I don't always feel the same gender.

 

Generally speaking, I don't care what pronouns people use, though online I generally prefer male pronouns and there are other times when I would like people to use them. But, nobody I talk to IRL knows I'm not a ciswoman, and I personally feel like it would be confusing to have to tell people that I'd like them to use different pronouns at different times, and to have to tell them every time what pronouns I'd rather they use.

 

Since female pronouns don't actually bother me, even when I feel more male, I don't usually care.

 

I don't like "it" and I don't mind but don't exactly like "they", though I'm actually rather fond of xe/xir/xem myself.

 

But, since I don't actually get really upset about being misgendered (and since it can be confusing since I don't feel the same gender all the time) I generally don't mind what people refer to me as.

 

I could ask people to use the xe/xir/xem ones, but since the world isn't exactly kind to non-cisgendered people... I find that it's easiest to just not mentioning anything personally, since like I said it's not really a HUGE deal what pronouns people use for me.

 

Of course, other people DO really hate being misgendered, which I understand and respect. It's just not a big deal to me.

 

But, like I said, I can't really speak for others who use the genderfluid label.

 

It just seemed to be the one that I "fit" most.

[Zovesta]

I understand the concept, and I can imagine what it could feel like, I guess it's just something I have a hard time wrapping my head around, being a privileged ciswoman.

 

My no, I normally just refer to people by their name if they haven't told me what pronoun to use and I'm unsure. Or I ask. v(`_`)v I'd rather seem overly formal than insensitive.

 

I eagerly anticipate the day when no one flinches at being asked to use "xir/he/she/they/etc".

 

Also, KageSora, I just have to ask: Has your male symbol on here been female to reflect how you feel at the time? because sometimes i feel like i'm going crazy. I've seen this happen a few times, genderfluid never even occurred to me, I guess that's as good an explanation as any.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Zovesta

[KageSora]

I understand the concept, and I can imagine what it could feel like, I guess it's just something I have a hard time wrapping my head around, being a privileged ciswoman.

 

My no, I normally just refer to people by their name if they haven't told me what pronoun to use and I'm unsure. Or I ask. v(`_`)v I'd rather seem overly formal than insensitive.

 

I eagerly anticipate the day when no one flinches at being asked to use "xir/he/she/they/etc".

 

Also, KageSora, I just have to ask: Has your male symbol on here been female to reflect how you feel at the time? because sometimes i feel like i'm going crazy. I've seen this happen a few times, genderfluid never even occurred to me, I guess that's as good an explanation as any.

I figure a lot of use can understand something in concept but can't quite get our heads around it when it doesn't actually apply to us. I figure as long as we're all decent people about it, though, it doesn't matter if we totally understand a concept--especially since there are just some things that you just CAN'T understand if it doesn't apply to you.

 

I wish the day would come soon, so people could be happy to use those pronouns--and to use the pronouns for a person of the opposite sex than their gender so as not to misgender them.

 

Also, no, I just leave it set as male here because I find it's more work than it's worth to change my gender symbol depending on my mood.

 

Also I'm too lazy to turn it off. And since people tend to use "them" when they can't see a gender, and generally even when I feel more female I prefer male pronouns to "them/they/their", I figure it's easier to just set it as male.

 

Though it has caused some confusion over in the abortion thread!

 

If you have seen mine specifically change, then it's probably just a browser caching thing. Other people changing it could be genderfluid, though. :3

 

...Unless I change it and I don't remember changing it. Considering that I've been known to change clothes or my glasses and have no memory of doing so--even if it would only have been in the last few minutes--it wouldn't actually surprise me if I did change it from time to time and just don't actually realize I'm doing it/remember doing it.