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[Thuban]

To be perfectly honest, I have no idea of what is considered as "mini modding" here on the forum. I know sometimes I walk the line and try to derail off topic conversations back on topic. I personally see nothing wrong with ONE user reminding someone of what the topic was supposed to be, or mentioning that something can be taken the wrong way, but the problem is that once one person does it, other people will too.

 

I think if something is starting to spiral and a mod hasnt said anything, it should be fine to point the conversation back into the right direction. We cant see when people have been warned until they make a complaint or comment about having been warned.

 

Again with chat comparison... if there isnt a mod actively engaging in the conversation that is happening, then users are encouraged to remind people of the rules. If there is a mod active, then the mods will make sure to remind people of the rules. This isnt an arrangement that would work here on the forum though.

[kiffren]

Don't most of us think our warns are unfair, when it comes down to it ? But the mods can only operate under the rules that have been set - one actually said once that they didn't agree with - I forget what - but that was what they had to do anyway (it was in a thread, so it's OK to say that !)

There are definitely rules I disagree with, that I don't think deserve warns. But like that other mod said (which very well may have been me?), we have to warn for whatever is specified as breaking the rules.

 

In response to Thu's comment, the chain of command on the forums is a bit weird. While the globals aren't the superiors of section mods, they are the next step in disputing something.

 

If you get warned by a section mod and disagree with it, you should PM that mod and discuss it with them. If they are being rude, or you still feel as if after adequate discussion they are wrong, take it to a global mod. Or, ask the mod you are discussing with to take it to the other mods. I will ALWAYS take a warn or action that is being disputed to the other mods at the request of the user. I will give the other mods the full situation starting with the original post, and then including any PMs about the topic (we don't post these PMs in public, but only to the other mods and TJ). If those actions don't work, you can take it to TJ as well.

 

If you have a warn from a global that you disagree with, the first thing you can do is take it to another global or even to a section mod. Section mods aren't 'above' globals, but we are all mods and will be willing to discuss it with the global. (This is unofficial advice by me, sorry if I piss of any globals or other mods or anyone.)

 

If TJ gives you a warn, lol, well, um. Don't know who you would argue that one with.

 

Generally the best course of action would be to discuss it with the mod that warned you. Mods are human, and seeing your warn be brought up with another mod or in public can make us feel bad. Even if users don't mention names, it's generally easy to figure out what mod is being talked about.

 

I hope this post makes the hierarchy (or lack thereof) of the moderating team make a bit more sense.

[Obscure_Trash]

Again, this is not a solution, but may I offer that, if you feel you're receiving unacceptable or just unsatisfactory answers from mods, you wait a little while before PM'ing them with your complaint or question? Give both sides some time to look at the situation more neutrally so it doesn't come across as "RAWGH I have a warn" and "RAWGH Why can't you see the same thing I do"? (Not saying anybody is doing this, just that we may have a huge communication gap between users and mods. D: ) And in the meantime, I know I will reevaluate PMs I get and make sure to check my answers. :3

[HeatherMarie]

But again, just getting my warn stripped does NOT fix the other issue. We need to discuss minimodding and how it should be handled. Right now, minimodding is taken as anyone saying anything as basic as "calm down" or "you're being kind of mean," which is stupid. Until that rule gets reconsidered what I did fell under the rule and likely won't be removed.

 

 

I DEFINITELY agree that the "minimodding" rule needs to be reconsidered and seriously looked at by mods/TJ. TJ said they were discussing the "no 'support' posts" rule, this is another one I think really needs to be discussed.

 

I can completely understand Mods in general not wanting tons of users trying to dictate what other people post, telling them over and over that they shouldn't say something, etc etc. There's a LEVEL where that sort of mini-modding is definitely a problem.

 

But then there's also a much smaller level, things like "that sounded rude, we are trying to have a civil conversation about this" and "maybe you need to calm down a bit" after a big outburst-post... What's wrong with that? I can see the problem if EVERYONE ganged up on the user, but for one user to just mention that maybe the over-the-top post was, well, over the top.... Why is that so wrong? ESPECIALLY on a forum where it sometimes takes hours and hours, sometimes the better part of a day, for a Mod to actually take action/respond/whatever. In the meantime, the conversation keeps going and going, and that user is only going to get ruder and more abrasive, if *someone* doesn't say something.

 

I really do understand the CONCEPT of "no minimodding", but I think in ACTION mods really need to lighten up with what they consider minimodding. At the VERY least, we should have a specific list of phrases that could get us warned for mini-modding, since often even users aware of this rule say they had no idea they were breaking it by posting what they did.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I DEFINITELY agree that the "minimodding" rule needs to be reconsidered and seriously looked at by mods/TJ. TJ said they were discussing the "no 'support' posts" rule, this is another one I think really needs to be discussed.

 

I can completely understand Mods in general not wanting tons of users trying to dictate what other people post, telling them over and over that they shouldn't say something, etc etc. There's a LEVEL where that sort of mini-modding is definitely a problem.

 

But then there's also a much smaller level, things like "that sounded rude, we are trying to have a civil conversation about this" and "maybe you need to calm down a bit" after a big outburst-post... What's wrong with that? I can see the problem if EVERYONE ganged up on the user, but for one user to just mention that maybe the over-the-top post was, well, over the top.... Why is that so wrong? ESPECIALLY on a forum where it sometimes takes hours and hours, sometimes the better part of a day, for a Mod to actually take action/respond/whatever. In the meantime, the conversation keeps going and going, and that user is only going to get ruder and more abrasive, if *someone* doesn't say something.

 

I really do understand the CONCEPT of "no minimodding", but I think in ACTION mods really need to lighten up with what they consider minimodding. At the VERY least, we should have a specific list of phrases that could get us warned for mini-modding, since often even users aware of this rule say they had no idea they were breaking it by posting what they did.

Bless this post

 

I understand smacking people with warns if they respond nastily. I understand a mod stepping in and telling people to knock it off if an entire thread turns into a "STOP BEING RUDE" tangent. I get it. I am 100% beyond you on that.

 

But warns should be for THOSE cases and THOSE cases only.

[purpledragonclaw]

But then there's also a much smaller level, things like "that sounded rude, we are trying to have a civil conversation about this" and "maybe you need to calm down a bit" after a big outburst-post... What's wrong with that? I can see the problem if EVERYONE ganged up on the user, but for one user to just mention that maybe the over-the-top post was, well, over the top.... Why is that so wrong? ESPECIALLY on a forum where it sometimes takes hours and hours, sometimes the better part of a day, for a Mod to actually take action/respond/whatever. In the meantime, the conversation keeps going and going, and that user is only going to get ruder and more abrasive, if *someone* doesn't say something.

This to me is an example of so many members and not enough mods for all of us. I have worked with mods on one of my jobs and believe me, modding is something that should be covered 24/7, something that even mods doing it for a paycheck can't do. Hopefully the addition of new mods will fix that.

 

A chain of command for people to go through when they have complaints is a good idea. I like Thuban's idea of section mod -> global mod -> TJ.

 

 

[Amazon_warrior]

A chain of command for people to go through when they have complaints is a good idea. I like Thuban's idea of section mod -> global mod -> TJ.

...but utterly, utterly useless if a user's complaint is apparently ignored by every rung of the ladder. I had what I felt to be a legitimate complaint about a mod's behaviour and yet as far as I know NOTHING was done. I took my complaint to TJ in the end and still got no response. That's pretty damn poor treatment of a user, imo.

[cfmtfm]

I disagree with the 'looking into minimodding' thing. Again, I refer you back to the mini-modding quote:

-Mini-Modding

As mods we appreciate, and even depend, on your help. HOWEVER, taking matters into your own hands is not help. Mini-modding (trying to stop drama or trolling or flaming on your own, attempting to take spam or duplicates into your own hands, generally trying to do the mod's job) is only more likely to start flaming and drama. While you may have good intentions, you have no authority. On the other hands, mods can warn, lock topics, delete posts/pictures, suspend or ban users, and ect. We have tools at our use to help back up the authority we've been giving. Reporting topics or posts or PMing us with problems is the correct action to take. It's our job to deal with the problems in this forum so please let us, rather than mini-modding and getting yourself in trouble, too.

The one exception is posting a link to an original thread if you notice it's a duplicate - but be nice about it or, even better, give the mod the link and let them take care of it.

Although you may have good intentions, I think (my opinion) it's best to let it be. The mods have already explained mini-modding further. Other people may not think that you telling them off is right - you're not a mod, you don't have as much authority as them. (Not in an offending way...)

 

Simply report and let it be. Obviously, as kiffren said, you can PM a mod to ask them about your warn and explain/investigate it further.

[Fuzzbucket]

I disagree with the 'looking into minimodding' thing. Again, I refer you back to the mini-modding quote:

 

Although you may have good intentions, I think (my opinion) it's best to let it be. The mods have already explained mini-modding further. Other people may not think that you telling them off is right - you're not a mod, you don't have as much authority as them. (Not in an offending way...)

 

Simply report and let it be. Obviously, as kiffren said, you can PM a mod to ask them about your warn and explain/investigate it further.

This (I speak as one who has had warns for doing it, too !)

 

Not because saying "chill, guys" or "That was a bit harsh" (as I did...) is inherently wrong, but because I too am an ordinary member, and saying that to another member is likely to start a "who are you to say that" thing, which just inflames everything and starts a slew of "she can say it if she likes" "But she isn't a mod" and so on - and if nothing else it derails the thread.

 

@ Amazon_warrior - I am REALLY sorry you had an experience that troubled you. I have no idea of the circumstances, or who was right and who was wrong - but - even in court there are miscarriages of justice. Maybe time to wipe the slate and save your bloodpressure going up ?

Edited February 11, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[Amazon_warrior]

@ Amazon_warrior - I am REALLY sorry you had an experience that troubled you. I have no idea of the circumstances, or who was right and who was wrong - but - even in court there are miscarriages of justice. Maybe time to wipe the slate and save your bloodpressure going up ?

What, so the next time a user has a similar issue, they'll get ignored too? The fact is that currently users have NO power when it comes to user/mod disputes and I think that should be addressed. Otherwise, all I see are people doing whatever they damn well please with their mod powers and no one can call them on it.

 

Frankly, a simple apology, sensible dialogue and some better manners from the mod in question would have done a huge amount to stop the situation building, but apparently *that's* too much to hope for.

 

 

ETA: And no, this isn't about any warn I got, it is about a mod who, imo, over-stepped their authority for personal reasons and I'm not overly prepared to just let that slide.

Edited February 11, 2013 by Amazon_warrior

[Fuzzbucket]

What, so the next time a user has a similar issue, they'll get ignored too? The fact is that currently users have NO power when it comes to user/mod disputes and I think that should be addressed. Otherwise, all I see are people doing whatever they damn well please with their mod powers and no one can call them on it.

 

Frankly, a simple apology, sensible dialogue and some better manners from the mod in question would have done a huge amount to stop the situation building, but apparently *that's* too much to hope for.

 

 

ETA: And no, this isn't about any warn I got, it is about a mod who, imo, over-stepped their authority for personal reasons and I'm not overly prepared to just let that slide.

Well, to be honest, while you know I think you're great - in the ultimate scheme of things, life's too short for this stuff to drag on. If the mod in question and TJ aren't WELL aware that there is an issue by now, I would be HUGELY surprised. And at least every last member in this thread - and probably elsewhere !! - is now aware !

 

I just don't want to see you - or anyone else here - with such knotted knickers and feeling so bitter and unhappy for so long. It's bad for your health.

 

And also, in the ultimate scheme of things - no, users have no POWER, as such. TJ could close this place down in a second and none of us could do a thing about it. Sad but true. That's how come the other forum I mentioned fell over dead. Because the users had no power to stop what was going on. That's the way of forums, I'm afraid - which is why I cannot be bothered to hold even the most totally justified of grudges.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Just because a mod isn't the one telling someone they're rude doesn't mean people won't listen. Again for the real-world example, most of the time if you tell someone to chill they'll listen to you regardless of whether or not you're a cop, so long as you're nice about things.

 

It ought to be the same here. If you politely tell someone to word things more nicely once or twice, you are being perfectly civil and don't deserve any sort of punishment for your trouble. It's when the person keeps ignoring you that you go to the authority. Running to a mod should not be the first line of action unless the person has said something unimaginably nasty.

[KageSora]

I agree that civilly telling somebody to chill out, and pointing out where people might have taken offense to their post, shouldn't be considered mini-modding unless a bunch of users are ganging up on them or if you're being rude about it.

 

Just saying "Hey, you might want to try wording it as X instead of Y, because it comes off a little rude as Y" shouldn't be considered mini-modding.

 

Going "DON'T DO THAT IT'S AGAINST THE RULES DUH" deserves a warn, politely saying "Hey, just so you know, you might wanna check the rules in the future" shouldn't.

[Fuzzbucket]

One of mine was for this:

 

I recommend not using words like that aimed at another member, whatever you think of their posts.... Peace to all and all that stuff !

 

(It was a very rude but not kipzable word...) I have to say that as far as I recall (it was a while ago now, that's why I cite such an oldie !) others did come in and say how dare I, so... THAT is what gets awkward - not so much the polite "please don't," as the mayhem that so often follows...

Edited February 11, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[Amazon_warrior]

Well, to be honest, while you know I think you're great - in the ultimate scheme of things, life's too short for this stuff to drag on. If the mod in question and TJ aren't WELL aware that there is an issue by now, I would be HUGELY surprised. And at least every last member in this thread - and probably elsewhere !! - is now aware !

 

I just don't want to see you - or anyone else here - with such knotted knickers and feeling so bitter and unhappy for so long. It's bad for your health.

 

And also, in the ultimate scheme of things - no, users have no POWER, as such. TJ could close this place down in a second and none of us could do a thing about it. Sad but true. That's how come the other forum I mentioned fell over dead. Because the users had no power to stop what was going on. That's the way of forums, I'm afraid - which is why I cannot be bothered to hold even the most totally justified of grudges.

What's your point? I see this as a problem with this forum. This is the thread for giving forum feedback. It was something that concerned me even before I got caught on the wrong end of it. If no one raises these issues then of course nothing will be done.

[Fuzzbucket]

My point is just that I hate to see people I like upset. I'm soppy that way !

 

I think what we need is the specific chain of command as suggested by Thuban, publicly posted, together with a commitment from TJ that he WILL respond to a user who has been through the whole thing and got nowhere.

 

I can see why he might not be expected to respond to every complaint anyone sends him, but it should be an absolute given that he does respond to someone who has tried every other avenue in a clearly defined legitimate process. Otherwise what else can someone with a genuine grievance do ?

 

Several people have said that they couldn't get a sensible answer when they wanted to raise an issue about a mod. Up till now that could be "explained" (not excused, but explained !) by the fact that there isn't a set and defined complaints procedure. There needs to be, and it needs to be followed by us all - including TJ, when all else fails.

 

It might even put a stop to people directly PMing TJ about every little thing, which could be a plus for him too !

Edited February 11, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[KageSora]

One of mine was for this:

 

I recommend not using words like that aimed at another member, whatever you think of their posts.... Peace to all and all that stuff !

 

(It was a very rude but not kipzable word...) I have to say that as far as I recall (it was a while ago now, that's why I cite such an oldie !) others did come in and say how dare I, so... THAT is what gets awkward - not so much the polite "please don't," as the mayhem that so often follows...

Then I suggest the people who jump on the person who politely reminded everybody to try and be civil deserve warns for rudeness, NOT the person who just tried to keep things from getting to the point where a mod was needed.

[Fuzzbucket]

(It was a very rude but not kipzable word...) I have to say that as far as I recall (it was a while ago now, that's why I cite such an oldie !) others did come in and say how dare I, so... THAT is what gets awkward - not so much the polite "please don't," as the mayhem that so often follows...

Then I suggest the people who jump on the person who politely reminded everybody to try and be civil deserve warns for rudeness, NOT the person who just tried to keep things from getting to the point where a mod was needed.

I imagine they were. But mods cannot be in every thread at all times !

[KageSora]

That's exactly why I think users need to be able to politely remind each other to be civil and maybe explain WHAT they found offensive without fear of getting trouble for mini-modding--so that threads can stop BEFORE a mod is needed.

 

Or at least before it gets REALLY bad.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

That's exactly why I think users need to be able to politely remind each other to be civil and maybe explain WHAT they found offensive without fear of getting trouble for mini-modding--so that threads can stop BEFORE a mod is needed.

 

Or at least before it gets REALLY bad.

Yes this.

 

Mods, I understand that you don't want a bunch of people piling up on one rude user and either entirely derailing the thread or making things worse.

 

However, please understand from us that it is very, very frustrating when a single person makes a very polite "keep it civil, guys" comment and instantly gets slapped with a warn for it.

 

Use warns when situations DO get bad. Do not use them just out of fear that things COULD go wrong when they very well might not. That's jumping the gun and is very frustrating for users. How would you like it if I sent you a PM scolding you every time you appeared in a thread I posted in, acting like I knew you were just coming to give me an unfair warn?

[Pokemonfan13]

What you guys have said makes a lot of sense to me.

 

As long as the "mini-modding" is polite and one person posting a reminder to keep things civil, etc, then that should be allowed. And I agree that it's the people jumping down their throat that should be warned, since that is completely unnecessary and definitely rude. Just because someone doesn't have any official power doesn't mean that they can't let someone else know [politely] when they're being rude/a jerk/etc and try to keep things civil.

 

But that's my opinion. I don't speak for anyone else or official policy.

 

 

 

[Actually had some experience with something like that today. There's a set of automatic doors at the building I take my pottery classes. When I went to the area where the doors were I saw someone pacing back and forth outside eating a banana. Fine, except he was doing it inside the area for the sensor eye for the doors and they were standing open, chilling the entire building [except the area I am which is closed off with a door] to the 40 degree outside temperature. When I went to tell him what he was doing and he should move his reaction was essentially "who are you to tell me what to do" and " off", when he was the one being incredibly inconsiderate to everyone who had classes in the building. Obviously a grade-A jerk.]

Edited February 11, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[HeatherMarie]

-Mini-Modding

As mods we appreciate, and even depend, on your help. HOWEVER, taking matters into your own hands is not help. Mini-modding (trying to stop drama or trolling or flaming on your own, attempting to take spam or duplicates into your own hands, generally trying to do the mod's job) is only more likely to start flaming and drama. While you may have good intentions, you have no authority. On the other hands, mods can warn, lock topics, delete posts/pictures, suspend or ban users, and ect. We have tools at our use to help back up the authority we've been giving. Reporting topics or posts or PMing us with problems is the correct action to take. It's our job to deal with the problems in this forum so please let us, rather than mini-modding and getting yourself in trouble, too.

The one exception is posting a link to an original thread if you notice it's a duplicate - but be nice about it or, even better, give the mod the link and let them take care of it.

 

The problem here is, we STILL have cases of people being warned for things that really don't fit this "rule". Things like "that was sort of rude" or "that could be taken the wrong way" are NOT covered in this rule (unless you say it's covered under "drama", but I don't see those quotes as "trying to stop drama"). And this "rule" places SO much emphasis on mods being able to do this-and-that, but mods CAN'T do anything when they *aren't online*. This is how we get threads 10+ pages long, with increasingly rude/terse/sarcastic posts, simply because there ISN'T a mod there to stop it. Personally I think this rule GREATLY over exaggerates the mods ability to stop "this and that and this" in a timely manner.

 

#1: I think mods need to loose up on the definition of mini-modding, and only warn for REAL cases of people trying to dictate/control a discussion or user.

 

#2: I think we need a clear-cut LIST of phrases that can get us warned for mini-modding, since this thread has made it *very* obvious that the "rule" doesn't seem to cover all the different reasons people get warned for it.

[KageSora]

I personally think it should be okay if more than one person steps in, provided they're not just saying the exact same thing.

 

If one person says "Hey, you might wanna clarify that, because it comes off a little offensively" and then another person says "I agree, I think if you say X it's less offensive because Y implies Z" and then another goes "I found it offensive because of [insert reasons], you could reword that like THIS and it would say the same thing but much nicer", I don't think that should be considered an issue.

 

Though, I agree that multiple people just going "That's rude/offensive/might be a problem/whatever" should get warns.

 

 

I just feel like if they're each contributing with an explanation, it shouldn't be counted as ganging-up since each person is bringing a valid point to help prevent other people from making the same mistake.

[Amur_Rama]

I personally think it should be okay if more than one person steps in, provided they're not just saying the exact same thing.

 

...

 

I just feel like if they're each contributing with an explanation, it shouldn't be counted as ganging-up since each person is bringing a valid point to help prevent other people from making the same mistake.

*nods* This is important as well.

 

Take into consideration !ninjaing that does happen in threads, or when people take the time to word a reply like that carefully, to avoid piling on, and by the time they post, two more people have jumped in to say the same thing.

 

If they are making subtly different points, those people aren't likely to delete their comment/post for "piling-on", because from their perspective, they were on the same topic but with different takes on it. But they'd be the ones getting the warns without "just" cause.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Amut un Rama

[Pokemonfan13]

I think if you're ninja'd with something like that, delete your post.

 

And the problem is that if too many people comment, even if they're all valid points, you get to the point of being offtopic. Because of that I'd personally say no more than 2 or 3 comments, even if you have a point that hasn't been mentioned, if there's already 3, either don't post or take it to PM.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Pokemonfan13