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Khallayne

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No, this is not a solution, but if you've contacted the mod and not received a reply you found satisfactory, do contact TJ. Yes, yes, no one wants to overwhelm him with "stupid" things, but hey, it's a part of our job as mods or as an admin to hear these complaints, compliments, or questions. If the warn bothers you and you still don't understand after contacting the mod (or didn't feel comfortable contacting the mod), go to TJ. If a warn of ours is removed, it should speak to us about what we're doing on the forum and if we need to reevaluate/think harder when giving out those types of warns. :3

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I got one small warn a couple of years ago, and it bothered me so bad that I left the entire site, not just the forum for two years. I'm back now, but I think I will rarely post in the forums.

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Warns are absolutely terrorizing if one doesn't know what they are or if they have never encountered them before.

 

I would like to see a writeup of what warns are, and maybe a possible inclusion into the Introductions copypasta.

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I'm always open to input on sticky's I put up: http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=107675

 

Warnings

 

    How do I know if I was warned?

 

Under your username and member information, you can find your current warn level. If you click on the percentage, your warn log will pop up and you should be able to see what you were warned for, as well as past warns you've received. No one but yourself and the mods can see your warn level and mods will never give out your warn information to others. Warns are a private thing and the mods respect that.

 

    What are warnings for?

 

As upsetting as it can be to get a warn, the warn isn't because mods hate you or dislike you. The warn is simply there as a reminder that you've done something wrong and should keep it in mind so it doesn't happen again. Low warn percentages will probably not earn you any consequences, either, though higher warn percentages can. Consequences can depends on the severity of infractions, which is why we do not have a set warn percentage = this consequence table to put up for users to see.

 

    Can I discuss my warn with a mod?

 

If you receive a warning and you don’t understand why you’ve got it, have a problem with it, or don't agree with it, you should check your warn log and/or contact the moderator who warned you for the best explanation. Keep in mind that explaining the situation may not get the warn removed, but may simply help you understand what you got the warn for. If you've discussed your warn with the mod who gave it to you and you still don't agree with it, PM TJ and ask him about it. But keep in mind that even he may also agree with the warn.

 

    Do warns go away?

 

Yes, after four weeks if you do not receive another warn in that time.

 

I'd love if people let me know if information was extraneous or unneeded. When it was first posted, the feedback I got was they wished there was less for askers (still trying to work this D: ) and something about piling, which was then added. :3

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Something that this forum really could do with is a clear and effective system to deal with escalated user/mod disputes. Because having had one and having done all the things everyone says you're supposed to do (contact the mod, contact another mod, contact admin), I felt like I was stonewalled, ignored and brushed off because "shut up little user, how dare you have a complaint". I felt I was handled exceedingly poorly by almost everyone I spoke to, as can be seen by the fact that I'm still angry and bitter about it.

 

Right now, if another user asked me what to do if they had a dispute with a mod, I'd advise them to go out, find a nice brick wall, and slam their face into it repeatedly because it'd have the same net effect as trying to chase a dispute here. And this is coming from someone who used to have a lot of respect for and decent relationships with the mod team.

 

If mods want me to think of them as human beings (i.e., the way I used to think of them), then they need to behave like human beings - and that means sometimes backing off, admitting wrong and apologising.

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I got one small warn a couple of years ago, and it bothered me so bad that I left the entire site, not just the forum for two years. I'm back now, but I think I will rarely post in the forums.

Just popping in to agree with this, then leaving again. Only reason I am even here is because of the Valentines dragon/event. I got a warn, and the only thing I got out of it is that I don't know when something will be taken the wrong way/not as I said it. So it is safer to not ever post again, because something will be taken wrong. When I tried to ask the mod about it all I really got was 'I am right so deal with it' attitude.

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Wow. sad.gif The only one I ever seriously challenged was dealt with very politely. I was wrong, they said, and explained at some length why they were not prepared to change their mind. I didn't actually agree, but they were nice about it, and that's what counts.

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No matter how the mods tout warns as a little ticking off, to tell you not to do it again, it is obvious just from the posts in this thread that people take them to be a lot more than that. This is why I think warns should be for more serious things, with only small verbal warnings for the less serious things.

 

I can't say my warns have been dealt with badly, my most recent warn was explained clearly to me when I replied to the mod about it. It is the rule I was warned for that I don't agree with (that you aren't allowed to post "support" a BSA suggestion thread), but I think the mod handled it fine. ^^

Edited by TheGrox

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As I mentioned, I did contact the mod, but nothing changed. As such (and since this thread was already sort of on the topic of warns), I thought I'd bring it up. It seems like another blanket rule like no spam, no rudeness etc that gets used too much. Again, I can see where things are coming from on the modly side (you don't want other users attacking the person to defend the original one, making things worse; you don't want a mob forming and derailing the topic; etc), but I also think that there are times when it should really be allowed to slide. A polite reminder from a single person to play nice should not be enough to warrant a warn for them.

 

In other words, don't use the "no minimodding" rule as a blanket rule; use it selectively for cases where the person(s) trying to help is actively making the situation worse. Which is usually not the case, both from what I've seen with others and from my own posts. ^^;

 

Gently telling someone to relax or reminding people that it's just a game should not in itself be a punishable offense.

Still hope this will be discussed. It's not just about my particular warn (although I think mine fits with being silly as per the above logic :/), it's discussing the minimodding rule itself. I am against its over usage for all the reasons detailed above.

 

Edit: also Ladylyzar, not cool at all on the edit department. I never mentioned names, nor implied names, all I did was talk about what happened when I contacted the UNNAMED mod. I think I have every right to mention the general gist of what happened in PMs with the first mod. In a discussion about mod power abuse that was a poor move. I did nothing wrong. :/

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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Still hope this will be discussed. It's not just about my particular warn (although I think mine fits with being silly as per the above logic :/), it's discussing the minimodding rule itself. I am against its over usage for all the reasons detailed above.

 

Edit: also Ladylyzar, not cool at all on the edit department. I never mentioned names, nor implied names, all I did was talk about what happened when I contacted the UNNAMED mod. I think I have every right to mention the general gist of what happened in PMs with the first mod. In a discussion about mod power abuse that was a poor move. I did nothing wrong. :/

I'm on your side, but at the same time I can see where the mod is coming from.

All you have to do is click the report button and wait for it to be handled. Yes, it may seem like it takes a while, but a mod eventually gets there. The person/people isn't/aren't necessarily publicly warned or even have their post deleted, but usually there is some kind of action taken.

... I forgot what I was going to say (helpful!), so I'll leave you with a more in-depth explanation of mini-modding:

-Mini-Modding

As mods we appreciate, and even depend, on your help. HOWEVER, taking matters into your own hands is not help. Mini-modding (trying to stop drama or trolling or flaming on your own, attempting to take spam or duplicates into your own hands, generally trying to do the mod's job) is only more likely to start flaming and drama. While you may have good intentions, you have no authority. On the other hands, mods can warn, lock topics, delete posts/pictures, suspend or ban users, and ect. We have tools at our use to help back up the authority we've been giving. Reporting topics or posts or PMing us with problems is the correct action to take. It's our job to deal with the problems in this forum so please let us, rather than mini-modding and getting yourself in trouble, too.

The one exception is posting a link to an original thread if you notice it's a duplicate - but be nice about it or, even better, give the mod the link and let them take care of it.

 

LadyLyzar edited it for the content of the PMs, not who you mentioned. Private messages are 'private' for a reason. wink.gif

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LadyLyzar edited it for the content of the PMs, not who you mentioned. Private messages are 'private' for a reason. wink.gif

This. On one forum I was on, ANYONE who referred to the content of a PM got an instant ban.

 

The whole place fell over in the end, when someone posted a whole LOAD of them, to be as inflammatory as possible and - well, you don't want to know, but the admin handled it very badly, and the membership mass migrated. It died a death...

 

I think we are lucky here; it takes one hell of a lot to cop a ban.

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No matter how the mods tout warns as a little ticking off, to tell you not to do it again, it is obvious just from the posts in this thread that people take them to be a lot more than that.

What about color coded warns, yellow for minor, orange for more serious, red, reserved for the worst offenses. Get enough yellow warning in a particular time frame they turn into one orange warning, and so on and so forth? If such a system is even possible.

Or since the words 'warn/warning' has such a negative perception maybe simply change the word warn to something with less unpleasant associations so that people don't feel like they have done something unforgivable. Maybe give them a 'notice' or 'notification' instead.

(The word warn always brings to mind my mother giving me the gimlet eye, shaking her finger at me, using her sternest voice while using all my given names or calling me young lady, and I KNEW I was in serious trouble! xd.png )

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...How are we supposed to discuss interaction with mods if we can't talk about interaction with mods?

NOT by discussing publicly the content of PMs. Private is a word everyone here understands, I think.

 

If you allow any, you open the door to some seriously nasty stuff. I've received a few about other members that would be really hurtful if posted in public.

 

You said you PMd and it wasn't satisfactory; you didn't have to mention the content. And it is perfectly possible the mod in question recognised themselves. And (devil's advocate, nothing personal) it is perfectly possible you were in the wrong. Don't most of us think our warns are unfair, when it comes down to it ? But the mods can only operate under the rules that have been set - one actually said once that they didn't agree with - I forget what - but that was what they had to do anyway (it was in a thread, so it's OK to say that !)

 

Or since the words 'warn/warning' has such a negative perception maybe simply change the word warn to something with less unpleasant associations so that people don't feel like they have done something unforgivable. Maybe give them a 'notice' or 'notification' instead.

If that would help, I'm all for it. After my first, I don't worry about them, but clearly many do.

Edited by fuzzbucket

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I think the edit was fair. PM stands for Private Message, and as such should remain private. Also, I seem to remember earlier people were all for editing offending content, has that changed already?

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We are getting seriously close to what happened when I got my temp ban. There comes a point when Mod powers and vague rules becomes CENSORSHIP. That's the problem with trying to discuss personal problems that happened in PMs. It becomes he said/she said, there are no witnesses and the dreaded, unfair rule of keep PMs private.

 

Best to drop it now, because you will NOT win this arguement. My 3 day ban was proof positive of that.

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We are getting seriously close to what happened when I got my temp ban. There comes a point when Mod powers and vague rules becomes CENSORSHIP. That's the problem with trying to discuss personal problems that happened in PMs. It becomes he said/she said, there are no witnesses and the dreaded, unfair rule of keep PMs private.

 

Best to drop it now, because you will NOT win this arguement. My 3 day ban was proof positive of that.

There are witnesses in that there are the PMs which could - in the ultimate scheme of things, be passed to TJ to arbitrate. I think that would be the ONE situation in which I would feel it OK to pass on PM info. Like private evidence is used in court smile.gif

 

But NEVER in a thread.

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Just thought I might say that it is "Personal" message, rather than "Private". This makes a load of difference, in my opinion, seeing as how the contents are not necessarily private.

 

But my opinion does not matter because I am a mere mortal.

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Just thought I might say that it is "Personal" message, rather than "Private". This makes a load of difference, in my opinion, seeing as how the contents are not necessarily private.

 

But my opinion does not matter because I am a mere mortal.

On some forums it's "Personal", some others it's "Private". Either way, content inside it shouldn't be revealed to the 'general public'.

 

I'd like to just second what fuzzbucket said as well.

ADP, I think you should PM someone of a higher role. (Like Sock said a while back, I think...) Even if that results in PMing TJ.

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Just thought I might say that it is "Personal" message, rather than "Private". This makes a load of difference, in my opinion, seeing as how the contents are not necessarily private.

 

But my opinion does not matter because I am a mere mortal.

Your opinion does so matter ! wub.gif

 

But as cfmtfm says - personal is the opposite of public, kind of. If I send someone a PERSONAL note I don't want it showing up in the Daily Mail....

 

For instance, I would never have wanted the PMs I exchanged here with others affected about a member who was harassing some of us for eggs to show up anywhere but where they were - between two or three "friends" who were comparing notes. On the whole, airing such things in public leads to worse feeling than the number you first thought of.

 

PS anyway in the terminology thread here it says they ARE private messages. (I just checked because that was what I always thought...)

Edited by fuzzbucket

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Disputes with warns or other actions /should/ be handled in private, but sometimes extra steps have to be taken. This site doesnt really have a specific chain of command, which does make it harder to figure out who to go to, when the person you are dealing with isnt much help.

 

If the problem is with a section mod, then global is where to go. If global cant help,then a different global, then admin. Unfortunately our globals are really awesome at what they do, and its more likely you will be dealing with them, rather than a specific section mod.

 

I think we should try to focus on a clear chain of command here on the forums. Here, I have no powers, but in chat, if someone doesnt like what I have done, they can go to either Star (my equal) or Fizzix and Hellow (they have a higher OP status, network level) and if they cant fix it, it falls back to TJ.

 

 

Here, if someone mentions an issue to me, the only thing i can do is put the information into a spot where all the mods can look into it, and discuss what happened.

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I TRULY hate this idea I am about to set out, but maybe we need a sticky with "How to complain about a forum issue" with the names of the mod areas and who to go to at each level - just as you have laid that out for complaining about YOU, Thuban. xd.png

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I TRULY hate this idea I am about to set out, but maybe we need a sticky with "How to complain about a forum issue" with the names of the mod areas and who to go to at each level - just as you have laid that out for complaining about YOU, Thuban. xd.png

Heh, well, I figured using the chain for chat would make more sense than the chain of command for my old site. There were a good 7 levels of chain there, and every forum mod was also expected to be in chat for at least an hour a day to help keep order, and spend quality time with the users. There it wasnt an option you /had/ to be in the chat.. im glad its optional here for our mods. Though there are a couple forum mods i would like to get into a one on one chat with tongue.gif

 

 

I do agree a sticky specifically for a clear chain of command is a good idea, along with some tips on how to do it properly, in a way where both user and mod walk away without hard feelings.

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I don't even agree with me, but it is, isn't it sad.gif

 

And for the record, in your user controls > board settings PMs are called private messages, so - private is private as well as personal smile.gif

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But again, just getting my warn stripped does NOT fix the other issue. We need to discuss minimodding and how it should be handled. Right now, minimodding is taken as anyone saying anything as basic as "calm down" or "you're being kind of mean," which is stupid. Until that rule gets reconsidered what I did fell under the rule and likely won't be removed.

 

Also plenty of other people were talking about their exchanges with mods which were, y'know, done in PM. I didn't copy-paste the stupid thing, I just relayed the general gist of what had happened, because it was, y'know, relevant to the discussion. e___e

 

However, the only thing worse then a warn is having an uninformed edit of your posts behind your back. I have never been on the editing instead of warning train and never will be. The solution isn't to get mods to move moddy behavior from one channel to another, it's to get them to be more relaxed about things in general.

 

The only other posting place I frequent is deviantArt, where mods are all but unexistant except for cases where people are doing over-the-top harrassment or making threats against others. Now, I certainly don't want the forums to be THAT 'relaxed,' but I would like some sort of compromise between the two. Warns should be saved for cases where people are getting really really out of order, making VERY POINTED ATTACKS on one another or repeatedly breaking the same rule over and over after they got a head's up to stop it. That's it. No more warns for dinky little things where no one was getting hurt and no mass chaos was erupting.

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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