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[lulu_witch]

Please don't drag the drama from that topic to this one. More likely than not, the temporary close is about the reaction and offtopicness of the last few pages rather than Z's post telling you to redirect your gifting/trading. I've asked for clarification and I'll let you know what I can when I can.

Thank you for looking into it, it is much appreciated.

 

I do understand that you wouldn't want 'Drama' in this thread and neither do we, we just want to express our feelings to you and we don't have anywhere else to do that (aside from PM, I get that but that doesn't really involve the whole community that was involved with the Even Gen thread) and this thread is meant for forum feedback (or so I thought).

 

So in a calm way I want to explain my feelings to you regarding this matter without causing drama.

Including myself, there are many of us that are deeply upset by the split/closing of the Even Gen thread. The thread had a fantastic laid back spirit and many shy players felt at ease there because of that. I loved being able to gift, swap and request eggs from people who think in the same manner. It was just such a friendly place and everyone was made to feel welcome.

 

I have quoted this from the first post of the Even Gen thread

 

The point of this thread is to have somewhere to turn when you want to ask for Even Generation dragons, or offer your own. And maybe talk a bit about your Perfect Generation projects.

 

Personally I feel that is all we were doing for the most part. I'm not saying that it didn't need a little bit of fine tuning and maybe less posting of lists and such but I feel that what has been done has effectively taken the spirit out of the thread and we are all left wondering why it was done in that way. We just want answers, and maybe changes to happen differently.

 

I appreciate that the mods have to do there job and enforce change sometimes, I just think in this case they are not listening to the players that frequent that thread.

 

That is all I have to say and I hope that I don't get warned for causing drama because that is not my intention, I am just trying to calmly express what many of us are feeling.

Edited September 4, 2011 by lulu_witch

[RheaZen]

http://mibbit.com/?channel=%23Even%2BGen&s....technoized.com

 

(Temp. area for people who still want to chat, but are now unable to.)

[nooey]

I agree wholeheartedly with Amazon and lulu_witch.

[Fiona]

I'm just posting a quick reply to the Even Gen situation before I run off to some RL stuff.

 

I'm one of the two people who began the Even Gens thread. Dragonwolf is the one who made the topic, but we merged one I started with it there at the beginning.

 

I've PMed _Z_. I am hoping we can talk through the issue and come to a solution that suits everyone.

 

Um. After I get home in about 5 hours.

 

I understand how the Even Gens people posting here feel. REally I do. We just need to all wait on the process now, please.

[~!~]

I think a positive change toward the SD section, or the forums in general, would be for the users and mods to review the rules on a regular basis, and perhaps throw out old rules that the frequenters of the section think are a hindrance rather than a help, perhaps add new rules to cut down on new problems, etc. Majority rule in a section of a forum is a pretty reasonable way to go when you remember that the rules are only there to make the forum as comfortable as possible. I think that an approach like that would cut down on problems like the thing with the Even-Gen thread.

[Alexiel Dragoness]

I would like to leave here some feedback about Dragon Request's Section.

I'm quite new at making dragons,I'm doing my second one now.I've learn a LOT from my first one,And I'm thankful for that.I also learn from watching other dragon requests.

What I've been noticing is that a dragon creator has not the same rights as the spriter.

the creator can just be happy if the dragon gets in the cave,while the spriter has the right of having an Alt as well as other privileges.That's not very fair.The spriter takes it all.I think creators should have the right as well to have an unique version of the dragon,since her/his idea and she/he made half of the work.

[~!~]

What I've been noticing is that a dragon creator has not the same rights as the spriter.

the creator can just be happy if the dragon gets in the cave,while the spriter has the right of having an Alt as well as other privileges.That's not very fair.The spriter takes it all.I think creators should have the right as well to have an unique version of the dragon,since her/his idea and she/he made half of the work.

Right now, no dragons that have spriter alts have creators who are not the spriters. So there actually isn't a precedent for whether non-spriter creators get holiday alts.

 

Although, it's debatable whether the sprite is only "half of the work..."

[Alexiel Dragoness]

 

Although, it's debatable whether the sprite is only "half of the work..."

Well,I guess so.

The idea for the dragon,the descriptions for the species and physical appearance,the management of everything...the creator is not only a spectator.He/she deserves to be treated as equal to the spriter,specially if he/she does whatever he/she can,even trying to do a sprite with the small knowledges he/she has(and fail because of that).

[Dr. Paine]

Well,I guess so.

The idea for the dragon,the descriptions for the species and physical appearance,the management of everything...the creator is not only a spectator.He/she deserves to be treated as equal to the spriter,specially if he/she does whatever he/she can,even trying to do a sprite with the small knowledges he/she has(and fail because of that).

This is a very common request, and one I wholeheartedly agree with. While you can't copyright an idea or description (the most common reason that it's shot down), it'd be nice to have some mark for those of us who came up with the idea and wrote it all out.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Dr. Paine

[HeatherMarie]

Honestly, I haven't seen many in-cave examples where the creator didn't do *some* of the spriting, or is credited for lines/whatever... Can anyone point me to an example?

 

I've always been under the impression that spriters get "rights" because a sprite is an actual thing. Creators do get "rights" in the way of being able to shoot down BSA ideas, or explaining what the dragon is really about, or shooting down spriting-ideas that don't fit their vision... I think it really depends on how much the creator does. I was under the impression that if the creator was involved in the concept from start to finish, they would be credited/have rights/etc. (I *know* that point was mentioned in a thread before, I just don't know where... and maybe it was wrong, but I do remember reading it).

 

Maybe my memory just sucks, but this is purely hypothetical, right? I mean, to my knowledge there has never been a case of a creator that stuck with the concept the entire way, wanted rights/credit, and didn't get it... Unless something happened that I'm not aware of.

[Fiona]

I could be mistaken about this, but I believe Dr. Paine is the conceptor for Flamingos. Her name doesn't appear on the art credits, but she does speak up whenever the characteristics of the breed are discussed.

 

She'd be an example of someone who came up with the concept of a dragon that was accepted into the cave, but didn't do the artwork herself. As far as I know, the artists involved refer people to her when questions involve the breed.

 

I'm not opposed to concept creators having some kind of public acknowledgement of their work on the concept. I'm pretty sure the reason they don't get credit on the dragons' page is because the concepts aren't subject to copyright, but the artwork is. That's why TJ must post artist's credits on each page. It's a legal thing.

 

As for spriter's alts, the only ones so far to get a spriters alt are holiday dragons and the prize dragon. Those were all sprited by in cave artists who also came up with the concept. I am kind of opposed to regular releases being given spriter's alts. I think it puts too much glory on what's really just a regular dragon breed.

 

That said, I'm of the opinion that if someone who isn't already an incave artist came up with a holiday concept that someone else sprited, and that TJ adopted for use, they could be given a spriter's alt too. That would seem fair.

[Obscure_Trash]

You may find this interesting, from a little while ago:

 

Do sketchers of holiday dragons get special alts?

 

Also, if art for a holiday dragon is pulled from the Abandoned Art thread, do the artists still get special alts?

 

There are no hard rules for holiday alts. It mainly falls to what the artists want.

 

I can't remember any holiday that hasn't been concepted and artsed by the same person, which is why it may seem like creators aren't getting alts in these instances.

 

Just a personal opinion, but I wouldn't want an alt sprite for something I had only made a description for. I might request a specialized, spiffy different breed description, if I could, but I wouldn't want an alt. 3=

 

And yes, ideas can't be copyrighted, which is why conceptors can't get credit. As far as having no mark to signify they came up with the background of a dragon, this could be in part due to how dragon requests used to run, where anyone could post a topic with as little information and effort as "wouldn't a dragon without a tail be cool?".

Edited September 15, 2011 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Dr. Paine]

 

Just a personal opinion, but I wouldn't want an alt sprite for something I had only made a description for. I might request a specialized, spiffy different breed description, if I could, but I wouldn't want an alt. 3=

I've got to say, I would love to see something like that

 

Actually, it would also be helpful. Maybe conceptors/description writers would get to have the... ultimate guide to that species? In the context of the game, they're the ones who found the breed, so naturally, they'd have the most information; things like habitat, powers (and limitations), breeding rituals...

 

(And yes, Fiona's right. I did... most, if not all, the writing and concept when it came to Flamingo Wyverns, but had absolutely no input on the art save for mentioning if it worked for the concept or not. This ultimately led to like... the sketches/preliminary sprites being cranked out when I was gone for a few days, actually )

 

But yeah, other than getting the final say in things like BSAs and behavior, concepters and writers won't get 'official' recognition unless they also made some of the final art themselves.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Dr. Paine

[DragonNeko]

I don't know if anyone mentioned it, don't really wanna go thru 50 pages to look for it, but less lag time between searches. I mean I just went to do a search for the 250 book challenge, couldn't find it and i knew i posted in it so i went to search in my recent posts and i really don't wanna wait for 90 seconds to find one little thing...

 

just saying *shrugs*

[~!~]

I don't know if anyone mentioned it, don't really wanna go thru 50 pages to look for it, but less lag time between searches. I mean I just went to do a search for the 250 book challenge, couldn't find it and i knew i posted in it so i went to search in my recent posts and i really don't wanna wait for 90 seconds to find one little thing...

 

just saying *shrugs*

This has been brought up... not sure whether it was shot down or not, though. The Search feature is already so ridiculously frustrating that the lag time makes it nigh unusable.

[HeatherMarie]

I definitely agree.... I honestly *hate* the whole search thing in general. Threads get closed as "duplicates" and people get told to search before posting, and yet search takes so freakin' long, *and* the results are so spotty, that it's honestly rather worthless to use search most of the time.

 

If I remember correctly, Search used to have a shorter wait-time in between searches, and it was extended semi-recently.

 

(it's a big pet peeve of mine, really. I hate that people are expected to spend a half hour fiddling with Search before posting, and if they don't their threads get closed without even really being answered. It's frustrating. I've spent 20 minutes on Search before and never found anything close to what I was looking for)

Edited September 15, 2011 by Marie19R

[Obscure_Trash]

I've got to say, I would love to see something like that

 

Actually, it would also be helpful. Maybe conceptors/description writers would get to have the... ultimate guide to that species? In the context of the game, they're the ones who found the breed, so naturally, they'd have the most information; things like habitat, powers (and limitations), breeding rituals...

Yes, that would be awesome! Especially if they're willing to put forth that effort; they definitely deserve it. ^^

 

Threads get closed as "duplicates" and people get told to search before posting,

 

That's an auto-text. Just some general reasons why the thread might have been closed. Mods usually post the answers or original thread in the case of duplicates, though. ^^

 

~

 

Unfortunately, the time had to be extended due to the lag that searching causes. I do wish it could be shorter, but, unfortunately, that just doesn't seem like an option right now.

 

Random note: something that helped me a lot when searching was to go over the Advanced Search Usage. I used to always just stick in 'freezing eggs' or whatever, but now I know that "freezing eggs" or '+freezing +eggs' should work better, depending on what you're looking for. /random example

You can also use the search by your inbox if you want to look in more than one forum, look for a specific post, or know who made the post of topic.

Makes my life much easier. ^^

[perzephone]

I know I'm one of the frustrated-by-the-forum-search thingie.

 

I've stopped complaining. I just go to google. It's faster and far more accurate, and there's no flood control.

[Dr. Paine]

Yes, that would be awesome! Especially if they're willing to put forth that effort; they definitely deserve it. ^^

Should this become an official suggestion, then?

[Fuzzbucket]

Random note: something that helped me a lot when searching was to go over the Advanced Search Usage. I used to always just stick in 'freezing eggs' or whatever, but now I know that "freezing eggs" or '+freezing +eggs' should work better, depending on what you're looking for. /random example

You can also use the search by your inbox if you want to look in more than one forum, look for a specific post, or know who made the post of topic.

Makes my life much easier. ^^

Google Boolean Search.

 

Read, mark and copy into word. It is THE way to find stuff - even here.

[~!~]

Should this become an official suggestion, then?

No need. Just start doing it.

 

Actually, it would be really useful if this were on regular dragons as well, for BSAs if nothing else.

[Dr. Paine]

No need. Just start doing it.

 

Actually, it would be really useful if this were on regular dragons as well, for BSAs if nothing else.

What, in terms of standard description? There's no way I could fit the extra info in just a thousand characters, and I'm pretty sure this would go for Vines, Daydreams, Nilias...

[HeatherMarie]

Small thing: When non-egg/link-spam topics are closed for "spam", is it possible for mods to leave more of an explantion as to why the thread is considered spam?

 

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=124458

 

Closed for spam very quickly, and yet the link in the mod's copy-paste reply (http://forums.dragcave.net/?act=boardrules) has nothing at all that would suggest that an opinion-question about profile pictures would be "spam".

 

The only thing I can find is the reference to "no chatting" found in the GD-sticky (http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=100400), but that wasn't what was linked to when the thread was closed.

[Kila]

It's an automatic reply that pops up whenever a thread is closed. I'm sure TJ can modify it, in fact, I'm 99% sure he can, and might do it if you're specific.

[Obscure_Trash]

Edited the post.