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[Walker]

I would like to propose that the BSA section be closed.

 

We're pretty much exhausted the BSA possibility range.  The only things left that could be BSAs are pointless badge/decoration things, gamebreaking things, and logical impossibilities.

 

Plus, it appears that as a prerequisite for a dragon getting a BSA, it has to specifically state in the dragon's description that it can do that BSA, or the artist/conceptor of the breed has to like the BSA.

 

I think it would be better if BSA conceptualization was confined exclusively to DR threads, so the breed can come out of the oven with the BSA already there.  It's become a pointless exercise to try and get in-cave dragons BSAs.

 

Also, somewhat off topic, but speaking of BSAs, has any explanation been given as to how Fertility works?

If you think they've been exhausted, no one is making you suggest or look at the section?

[Obscure_Trash]

*looks at various suggestions for egg freezing, hatchie incubate, shorter cooldowns, killing without taking a space, getting rid of dead eggs faster, 'fogging' select adults, etc.*

 

Yes, there are quite a few badge suggestions, but I also see plenty of other interesting BSAs. Just because there's not a new topic a day doesn't mean there aren't good ones in there, or even ones that would make it with just a bit of work.

 

No, it doesn't specifically have to be in the description, but you do have to have some sort of logic behind your suggestion. :3

[~!~]

*looks at various suggestions for egg freezing, hatchie incubate, shorter cooldowns, killing without taking a space, getting rid of dead eggs faster, 'fogging' select adults, etc.*

Egg freezing... OK, there are no problems with egg freezing.

 

However, if I had a dollar for every time hatchling incubate has been shot down, I'd be able to buy Dragon Cave. And all the artwork therein. It's just not possible. There's no way, short of powerful magic, that a hatchling can be forced to grow up faster than it naturally would.

 

Of course, there are plenty of ways that hatchling incubate can work, within the logic of DC. It all depends on what v/uv/c are analogous to. A hatchling can grow up in three days, or it can grow up in seven, depending on how much v/uv/c it has. So long as whatever dragon you have can give the hatchling a little more of whatever v/uv/c stand for in the RP part of the game, hatchling incubate is possible. However, that doesn't stop it from getting shot down every time it comes up. Training? Nope. Feeding? No. Nurturing? Impossible. It's a hopeless venture.

 

Killing without taking up a space used to be on What Not to Suggest, but that's no longer there... although I do remember a couple threads being shot down with "TJ said this can't happen." The whole point of killing taking up a space is to prevent users from just going through and killing all the eggs in the cave to get to the rares faster. If there's any way to do that, it completely defeats the point of dead eggs taking up space in the first place.

 

Getting rid of dead eggs faster is the same way. Every time I see it come up, it gets lots of support, but then people come in and say the same thing about killing without taking up a space. They say the dead egg should be a badge of shame, and taking it away faster would defeat the whole point.

 

Shroud is different. Shroud got the blessing of the conceptor, and therefore was not shot down. (But don't try to think any dragon but Daydreams can do it. Grays, definitely not. Mean dragons can't hide other dragons in clouds. That's ridiculous.)

 

No, it doesn't specifically have to be in the description, but you do have to have some sort of logic behind your suggestion. :3

The trouble here is that different members have different ideas of logic. Some see Influence and Fertility and think their suggestion is just as logical. Some people see legless Waters turning into Western-style Neglecteds or Vampires, and think their suggestion is just as valid. (Some people see the older dragon sprites and think their own sprites are good enough to get into the cave, too, but that's another matter.) Many times, I've seen OPs in the BSA section defend their idea by saying that it's just as logical as some thing or another in the cave. It never works.

[HeatherMarie]

The trouble here is that different members have different ideas of logic. Some see Influence and Fertility and think their suggestion is just as logical. Some people see legless Waters turning into Western-style Neglecteds or Vampires, and think their suggestion is just as valid. (Some people see the older dragon sprites and think their own sprites are good enough to get into the cave, too, but that's another matter.) Many times, I've seen OPs in the BSA section defend their idea by saying that it's just as logical as some thing or another in the cave. It never works.

Which is why other users respond, and try to get an overall consensus of what type of "logic" will make the suggestion work. Just because one person thinks their logic is sound doesn't mean that it is, or that a different way of going about the BSA won't work better.

 

I see no reason to close the BSA forum just because there are some duplicates.... We are all still learning. It's not *that* old of a forum, really, and we are all still learning what can and can't be hashed out logically. At least, that's why I post there... To learn. To give my opinions, to help where I can, and to learn.

 

Is it a bad thing that BSA topics get closed because they don't make sense in-game? I don't think so. Isn't it *good* for people to post a topic, and then learn more about why it won't work, and in the process get more information about how to make their ideas better?

[Princess Artemis]

However, if I had a dollar for every time hatchling incubate has been shot down, I'd be able to buy Dragon Cave.  And all the artwork therein.  It's just not possible.  There's no way, short of powerful magic, that a hatchling can be forced to grow up faster than it naturally would.

Of course it's possible. TJ just has to code it and voila.

 

That said, the Mint and Black tag-team BSA Training and Forage looked perfectly reasonable to me and I explained why I thought so in the thread. No one said anything about my reasoning (last I looked), though I gathered the idea was not necessarily liked in any case by the general audience because it was a 'hatchie incubate'. Perhaps no one said anything about my reasoning because it was TL;DR : ) It seems to me that it isn't so much that there is no logical way to accomplish a 'hatchie incubate' as it is the people who frequent the BSA threads don't particularly want one, as far more effort is put into finding out why none will work as is put into figuring out why one could work.

 

Seems that not so long ago TJ proposed a BSA for Storms, so there are still BSAs being proposed that have a good chance of getting into the game. No reason to shut it down just yet. If nothing else, it keeps the BSA suggestions nicely corralled where people can find them. Fold hasn't been kicked off the forums, has it? That's a neat BSA.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Princess Artemis

[~!~]

It seems to me that it isn't so much that there is no logical way to accomplish a 'hatchie incubate' as it is the people who frequent the BSA threads don't particularly want one, as far more effort is put into finding out why none will work as is put into figuring out why one could work.

This is precisely my problem.

[Fengari]

I used to frequent the BSA section a lot and tried to give my input on quite a few BSAs, but I don't go there so much any more.

 

There's a few reasons for that.

 

I feel too much emphasis is put on BSAs being logical and completely explained by earth laws of nature. It is good to encourage people to think things through and not completely rely on the 'it's magic!' explanation, but after all DC is a world where there are dragons and magic, and I feel there should be a little more leeway towards things that deviate from what's natural in our world.

Hatchling incubate is the biggest example: as ~!~ has said, hatchlings on DC don't all need the same amount of time to grow up, there is *something* (represented by the view counts) that influences how fast they do, so why is everything that makes a suggestion about what that *something* could be and how the BSA could help a hatchling to grow up even faster shot down so consistently?

Yes, I do compare with Influence and Fertility and a lot of the suggestions that have been shot down made more sense than those two...

 

Another thing is that, if a suggestion is well thought out and gets almost unanimous support, eventually the thread still dies out (because when everyone agrees, there's not much more left to say...) and gets buried beneath newer suggestions. I assume TJ does read these things and keeps some kind of notes about which suggestions he considers, but I think it would be nice to actually hear whether he likes it or not. A simple 'no, I don't like it', 'I like it but it is hard to code so I don't think it will ever happen' or 'I like it and am considering adding (something like) this in the near/distant future' or something along those lines would be nice. I'm not suggesting that he should answer every thread all the time, just some kind of conclusion to the threads that do get a lot of support and look like everyone has said what they wanted to say.

A clear 'no' would also be very helpful to update the 'what not to suggest' list.

[Fuzzbucket]

A clear 'no' would also be very helpful to update the 'what not to suggest' list.

The last time I looked for that it had vanished and when I asked a mod about it I was told it seemed to be a bad idea (I forget why, now...)

[~!~]

The last time I looked for that it had vanished and when I asked a mod about it I was told it seemed to be a bad idea (I forget why, now...)

I think it went away because people were misinterpreting it. Because some things were on there because TJ had said they were impossible, but other things had just been rehashed many times by the users, and people were confusing the two.

[SuroPenguin]

I love how the site is run, how the forum is run, and the community here seems very friendly and helpful. Overall I think you are all doing a great job.

[Lythiaren]

Shroud is different.  Shroud got the blessing of the conceptor, and therefore was not shot down.  (But don't try to think any dragon but Daydreams can do it.  Grays, definitely not.  Mean dragons can't hide other dragons in clouds.  That's ridiculous.)

Not so much that mean dragons can't, I was questioning whether you'd want to do it with your ill-tempered gray potentially getting so fed up with the noise that they just kick your dragons out or fry them with a lightning bolt. In the meantime the daydream cloud is completely harmless and they aren't capable of hurting anything. I'd go with the safer option myself and many others seemed to agree.

 

On the subject of Nurture, I have yet to see the BBW version shot down. The frill version had my blessing and yet it was constantly shot down because people weren't reading the description. They were so fixated on getting them out of the way that they decided on their own that the breed was vicious and wouldn't take my word (or TJ's, for that matter) that they were wrong. The BBW Nurture is the exact same principle (accelerated growth through nutrition and exceptional care) applied to a different breed with a similar canon behavior set and greater capacity to provide nutrition. The thread simply drifted into the depths because discussion had been exhausted. There was nothing left to talk about. No one really seemed to disagree with it logically, iirc. It was never shot down.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Lythiaren

[~!~]

Well... I guess I have nothing to say about the BSA section. I'm glad there was some discussion about the section, and while I still think it's pretty much outlived its usefulness... Also, I wasn't thinking that new BSAs stop being introduced, just that they don't really need their own subsection, because now all we're doing is scraping the bottom of the barrel for BSAs... I guess I was a little harsh on the section in my original post, though.

 

However, I was thinking of something completely off topic, but since this is the thread for it...

 

What do you guys think about making posts in Introductions not count toward post count? Nearly every post in there is chatty or copypasta, so the section doesn't really have much merit.

[Lythiaren]

I certainly agree with that. I've skimmed in there lightly and while one's first post is required to be in that forum, almost all non-OP posts in there are gigantic walls of text and links. If I was new and got that shoved into my intro thread I'd be a little intimidated. If I checked back at all.

 

I know when I refer friends to the forums I tell them to just make a brief post in there and just get on with normal forum use and they rarely bother to look back at their intro threads. Then again they also have a buddy as an existing resource.

 

EDIT:

 

But.

 

If the intro forum didn't count toward post count, how would we let the newbies out of the intro forum? :x

Edited August 30, 2011 by Lythiaren

[~!~]

Eh, I mean... I think the links and stuff are useful and all, I just don't think they should count as "activity."

 

Also, it would stop people from posting there just to up their post count. Because I'm sure there's plenty of that going on.

 

EDIT: Also, copypasters would do better if they actually read the OPs' posts, and left out links to things they had specifically said they already read.

 

EDIT, based on Lyth's edit: I didn't know that was based on post count... I thought they had to post there first so that if they were a spambot the mods could catch them, and otherwise they would be upgraded to "real person" status.

Edited August 30, 2011 by ~!~

[Lythiaren]

Well yeah. I have no doubt that that is happening either. But despite the usefulness, think of the poor newbie who's just posting in there.

 

Newbie: Hi!

Oldbie: Hi! [encyclopedia]

Newbie: Uh... thanks? o_o;

 

The dumptruck full of information can be overwhelming for some. :V

 

(edited to remove because you responded to edit)

MOAR EDIT: I don't actually know how it works, but if it's post count based, that poses a bit of a problem. Hoping I'm wrong here. :x

Edited August 30, 2011 by Lythiaren

[Princess Artemis]

I think the rest of the posts ought to count in Intro because it is, I gather, a lot of work to go in there and say hi to all the people. It's a thankless job that some people have undertaken. Why shouldn't it count for them?

[_Z_]

Members always complain about the Introduction section. (Those members usually never post in that section.) Please feel free to welcome members at any time. The complaints about CP posts are inevitable it seems. I have defended those posts many times, in this topic and others.

 

Introductions was already discussed in this topic, somewhere on page 18.

[bluebell_rose]

Well yeah.  I have no doubt that that is happening either.  But despite the usefulness, think of the poor newbie who's just posting in there.

 

Newbie: Hi!

Oldbie: Hi! [encyclopedia]

Newbie: Uh... thanks? o_o;

 

The dumptruck full of information can be overwhelming for some. :V

 

(edited to remove because you responded to edit)

MOAR EDIT: I don't actually know how it works, but if it's post count based, that poses a bit of a problem.  Hoping I'm wrong here. :x

yeah, one of my friends wasn't a forum member till recently and she was raising her dragons fine with a great ratio, she decided to sign up on the forums one day and got a dumptruck of unneeded info. If Someone would actually read the intro posts, they'd save themselves a heck lot of time, dumping a wall of text to someone who clearly doesn't need it and already has about 50 or so dragons clearly already knows what she's doing and doesn't need unnecessary information

 

OldbieNewbie: Hi! I've been here since 2008 and I have 100+ dragons

Oldbie: Hi! [encyclopedia]

OldbieNewbie: Uh... thanks? o_o; *points up* I don't need your helps!

 

, and the intro poster guys are newer than the newbie forum member.

 

Edited August 30, 2011 by bluebell_rose

[Walker]

Guys they are links. It's not like the whole thing is written out in the post, and every link has a title. So, if they are looking for something in particular, they can always scan through and only find the link they need. It's not like 'Hurhur, here are a bunch of random links I'm not going to tell you about please read them all for what you want cause hurhur I'm not going to tell you what is in each.'

 

The only thing I would change is the FAQ part. I'd change it, "Read before posting a new topic in the help section," instead of "Read before posting a new topic," so they didn't think they had to read the whole thing before they could post any topic X3 And that's a small change, at best. Everything else about the introductions is perfectly fine.

[~!~]

Members always complain about the Introduction section. (Those members usually never post in that section.) Please feel free to welcome members at any time. The complaints about CP posts are inevitable it seems. I have defended those posts many times, in this topic and others.

 

Introductions was already discussed in this topic, somewhere on page 18.

I never said I had any problems with the Introductions section. I just think it's an easy way for people to bump their post count, and even if that's not what they're trying to do, it happens anyway. I think that the copypasta posts are a perfectly reasonable, and at least somewhat useful, but I don't think they should be counted in the same category as "activity" as regular forum posts.

 

I'm not trying to dispute the merit of the information contained in the posts, or say that people should stop making C&P posts in the Intro section.

 

The reason I don't post in Introductions is because new members rarely actually check those threads again, and they rarely move directly from there to S&R (the only section I post in). Although, I suppose I could encourage people to do that...

[Reidragon]

Hi there,

 

Now I normally am quite the lurker on the forums and I certainly don't often have an issue with the way they are run or what goes on in them. But I have been noticing a distinct lack of a community feel in the forum in general over the last few months.

 

There was one thread in which I found that the community feel and camaraderie between members of the Dc forums had remained pretty intact. That thread was the even Gen thread. Members there were beyond friendly and helpful and I met some really nice and helpful people through it. I gained progress in lineage set ups I had before been lacking in.

 

It even encouraged me to open up more.

 

I got online today to see that section closed the the reasoning behind it just boggles my mind. Gone is the thread and it's community feel. Instead we are being forced to participate in another forum based egg dumping thread. One without the feel of community and camaraderie.

 

I personally am very upset and angry with how the whole issue was handled. I felt it necessary to make my voice heard and this was the only thread I thought was appropriate to do it in.

 

I do not understand why the thread was closed when according to the guidelines set up in the op we were doing nothing wrong.

 

Edited for spelling. That's what I get for staying up so late xP

Edited September 4, 2011 by Reidragon

[hellhunt]

This!

And it was thread with history, vol 5 I believe, it was not new topic that you just could close due to duplicate <.<

 

[Fizzix]

Please don't drag the drama from that topic to this one. More likely than not, the temporary close is about the reaction and offtopicness of the last few pages rather than Z's post telling you to redirect your gifting/trading. I've asked for clarification and I'll let you know what I can when I can.

[counselor]

I don't want to participate in any "drama" - I only want to state my opinion here. And thanks, Fizzix, for looking into it.

 

I second what Reidragon said. For me the "even gen" thread was like home.

 

I do understand (and agree) that the thread needed some changes, like for example deleting old posts yourself, so that it won't move too fast, or not to offer to make lists for offspring and instead wait for requests. I can accept that. No prob.

 

Splitting the thread up doesn't work for me. I do not only want to share my pretty even gen lineages by showing them off. I want to swap, gift and request eggs in that thread with all those kind people there - without filling forms when I gift an egg.

 

EDIT: deleted a couple of sentences which could've been seen as "drama".

Edited September 4, 2011 by counselor

[Amazon_warrior]

I don't want to participate in any "drama" - I only want to state my opinion here. And thanks, Fizzix, for looking into it.

 

I second what Reidragon said. For me the "even gen" thread was like home.

 

I do understand (and agree) that the thread needed some changes, like for example deleting old posts yourself, so that it won't move too fast, or not to offer to make lists for offspring and instead wait for requests. I can accept that. No prob.

 

Splitting the thread up doesn't work for me. I do not only want to share my pretty even gen lineages by showing them off. I want to swap, gift and request eggs in that thread with all those kind people there - without filling forms when I gift an egg.

 

EDIT: deleted a couple of sentences which could've been seen as "drama".

*Slinks out of the shadows to say "hear, hear!"*