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It is nonsense. Honestly, Dragons Requests is a ruse anyway. All the dragons we get nowadays are from the same handful of artists, made behind closed doors. Nothing from Requests gets released anymore anyway. It's pointless.

 

And there are suggestions that have been waiting for years for any kind of TJ approval/feedback.

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1 minute ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

It is nonsense. Honestly, Dragons Requests is a ruse anyway. All the dragons we get nowadays are from the same handful of artists, made behind closed doors. Nothing from Requests gets released anymore anyway. It's pointless.

 

And there are suggestions that have been waiting for years for any kind of TJ approval/feedback.

Not true, I've seen two dragons make it to the Completed List and then vanish. I don't remember the names however, but I did notice it.

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Offering any POV seems rather pointless, so I - won't. I will leave y'all to imagine it. This being so, you may also imagine the bad language in there, which I would be using were in not for the ****

 

Or I could go start an IRC and use it there.... This is all vile beyond belief. The worst I have seen since I joined up. It isn't about the sweetlings any more, it's about seriously bad ACTIONS.

Edited by Fuzzbucket

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Just now, Dalek Raptor said:

Not true, I've seen two dragons make it to the Completed List and then vanish. I don't remember the names however, but I did notice it.

 

No, they can vanish because TJ doesn't like them. A while ago that happened to one of mine.

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I understand that some requests could create drama, but we have proof that announcements in the news thread can as well. I'm just stating my opinion here and I'm not trying to bash anyone or cause any trouble, but it seems to me that no consideration was put into whether or not closing down the alluded to suggestion may cause even more frustration to be felt by the userbase. I really don't think most of us are looking to start trouble. We just want to feel like we, the regular users, have a voice and are respected, which we sometimes don't.

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Rules between mods and TJ need to be set between them and no one else.  He pays attention to what happens on the forums so any discussion there was going to be moot.  I have seen other similar topics regarding mod/artist behavior immediately closed by TJ himself, so I was proactive.  Emotions are raw and this is not the right time for that sort of thing.

 

Now I'm going to try to clear the air here so bear with me.

 

There has been a gross misconception about what Starscream was trying to do.

 

I've talked to her in order to make sure I have it 100% right, and here's what we hashed out.

 

  1. The alt chat was NEVER only for alt owners.  I know from the wording that it came across that way.  It's not.  It is a scheduled time and place for alt owners to speak and brainstorm because no one was consulted before the changes to alts took place.  However that means that:
  2. ANYONE is welcome to join the chat.  ANYONE.  It doesn't matter if you have black, pink, or no Sweets.  You are welcome to contribute.  What will not be tolerated is bashing of anyone regardless of what dragons you have.  This goes for alt owners and non alt owners.  If you are only there to cause trouble, you will be removed.  There are hurt feelings on both sides and that's what we really want to avoid.
  3. A scheduled IRC chat provides real-time moderation.  As I'm sure you noticed, the suggestion thread blew up while I was in bed and no one else was around to mod it.  I appreciate those who tried to keep it civil.  I really do.  However, the real-time modding will allow troublemakers to be escorted out the door before things explode.  That way things can be discussed without the firestorm that occurred last night.
  4. The scroll requirement was for purposes of easier chat modding.  It wasn't meant to be exclusive but I see how it came across that way. However, after finding a workaround, that has now been removed.  AGAIN, everyone can come and discuss.

In summary, don't try to burn her at the stake.  She was trying to help and it came across the wrong way.

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At this point I honestly think the only thing we can do is actually try to get TJ involved in this, make him aware of what is going on, and hope and pray that he can see why this is so worrying and upsetting to so many of us. 

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Let’s all take a deep breath. Nothing on a dragon collecting game is worth getting an elevated heart rate over.

 

I still think directing a subset of users to debate an issue behind closed doors was a bad and divisive call. I think there’s a place to ask that mods not do so. However I can also understand they might want to let tempers cool before doing so, which is probably worth doing. Even though the thread was made with careful and logical arguments, there’s a chance to spark another fire and that’s the last thing we need right now. For the moment let’s just continue debating pros and cons peacefully in the Sweetling thread. Although even then I think we might as well wait a month for possible Kila response.

 

I admit I’m also frustrated at times and feel in some ways that the forum is just a trap to make us feel we have a voice, considering how long topics can stay open without official word and how most approved dragons do seem to come from a small subset of people. At the same time, though, I respect that TJ has both come a long way (especially in the last few years) and is actually working a real job aside from running this site. It’s all worth noting that we have gotten a few new artists over the past few years, even if not quite as many as I’d like. So while I hope for further improvement I don’t think bringing things up in the middle of already spiked forum tensions is worth doing.

 

Really I would just like to get back to a simple discussion of sprite availability without anger or leaving from other side.

 

@LadyLyzar it was originally said that while non Alt owners could join, they could not speak. It seems this has changed? If so I’m glad, but it’s easy to see why people are upset that it wasn’t that way from the get go.

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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@LadyLyzar When they were asked to clarify if the chat was for alt owners only, they said yes. Whether they are backtracking on that statement now to you because they realized they have messed up or not, we know what we were told.

 

I also think it is a pretty flawed system that each section is only moderated by one mod- although considering another mod was not being neutral in this matter, I do not know what good it would do.

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13 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

At this point I honestly think the only thing we can do is actually try to get TJ involved in this, make him aware of what is going on, and hope and pray that he can see why this is so worrying and upsetting to so many of us. 

 

Agreed.

But can you please ask Starscream to change the wording in her sig so that it is quite clear that ALL are welcome.

 

At this point I honestly think the only thing we can do is actually try to get TJ involved in this, make him aware of what is going on, and hope and pray that he can see why this is so worrying and upsetting to so many of us. 

10 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

@LadyLyzar When they were asked to clarify if the chat was for alt owners only, they said yes. Whether they are backtracking on that statement now to you because they realized they have messed up or not, we know what we were told.

 

I also think it is a pretty flawed system that each section is only moderated by one mod- although considering another mod was not being neutral in this matter, I do not know what good it would do.

 

I don't get what you mean here. Starscream is not a forum mod. But I agree she is staff and all staff need to be impartial at these times.

Edited by Fuzzbucket
speling

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I would quote it if it wasn't deleted, but Star said herself that the petition/main chat would ONLY be for alt owners. However, it was deleted when you cleaned the thread out, LadyLyzar. Did you not see it? You had to have read it and just glanced right past it. Several people have pointed it out to you; why is that post being ignored?

 

"Only there to cause trouble," who defines the trouble. Who is doing the moderating. Who determines what trouble is - because today, and yesterday, people have had things that were not even causing trouble deleted, closed, and locked away.

 

This is ridiculous.

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Dangit I lost my post. Summary: @LadyLyzar at this point any backtracking and 'it was taken wrong' and such simply feel like trying to cover up a huge mistake. Whatever the intention, the original posts and sig-line *definitely* showed the chat to be alt-owner exclusive. As well, another mod (maybe you?) specifically said that others may join the chat but wouldn't be 'given voice', which makes it even more clear that the chat is completely discriminatory. 

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Can I just point out that in Starscream's thread, it does say that only forms from the verified owners of alt Sweetlings will be accepted, giving only those people permission to enter the chat? And I also remember her post about no one else being allowed in. This kind of seems like backtracking to me too.

 

I just want this pointless exclusive chat to be stopped and peaceful discussion to return. Yes, some people took it too far, but those people can be warned.

Edited by The Dragoness

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Oh jeez, everything's going so horribly wrong so fast. :unsure: I'm almost feeling a little nervous. I wish TJ could come down here and say something... anything to help restore order amidst all this chaos.

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I read the thread mentioned last night when it was posted and, as others have mentioned, I too saw that it was detailed specifically that you had to have an alt Sweetling scroll to contribute to the 'discussion'. 

 

That seems like restricting the discussion to specific people, at least to me.

Edited by Dorchet

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It is made quite clear in the thread that opinions expressed by pink owners will be deleted, and only "forms" collected by alt owners will count. That is Not OK.

 
Oh and by the way - in case she backtracks some more, I have the thread saved as it stands now. Which is totally exclusive.
Edited by Fuzzbucket

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It was poorly worded.  She was upset and is also only human like the rest of us.  Nobody's perfect guys.

 

Apparently several alt owners contacted her and were very upset about what went down, hence the idea for a "safe space" to speak.  Emotions were raw on that end too (sound familiar?)

 

I don't speak IRC controls well, but the idea behind giving voice was that if the channel needed to be muted (something about a mod mode or somesuch where only voiced users and mods can speak) because people were screaming at alt owners, they would still be able to speak and hold their discussion regardless of drama.  After discussion we figured that wasn't a good idea.  Trouble can be dealt with on a case by case basis.

 

By causing trouble, I mean people who were throwing insults and making broad assumptions about parts of the user base that were hateful.  In other words, failing to respect others which is always the first requirement of the forum or chat.

 

I personally feel the scroll requirement thing was a knee jerk reaction.  I own alts myself and I was pretty hacked about the stuff being thrown around on both ends.  Regardless, the scroll requirement of owning alts has been removed to eliminate confusion.

 

I hope this helps.

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4 hours ago, LadyLyzar said:

I also own alts and I found the fighting in there to be outright ridiculous.  Some of the accusations against alt owners were completely without merit and I completely understand why many would not want to respond for fear of being maligned.  I just cleaned a lot of outright falsehoods and insults out of that topic, and posts that stemmed from them.  It was not exactly the highlight of my day.

 

For the record, Starscream cannot pin topics herself as she is not a forum moderator.  This was a discussion among mod staff to do.  I understand this decision is controversial, but based on that topic, I feel it was necessary for alt owners to be able to speak without being shouted at.

 

 

 

Let me shed some light on this. I'm the one who pinned Starscream's topic. I watched the Suggestions thread for over an hour, and watched things get worse and worse. I completely agreed with the idea of Alt owners having their own space to discuss this, and knew the potential consequences of it when I did it. Had any member wanted to do this, I would have been okay with it as well, and would have pinned that topic too. I understand how bad this looks coming from a moderator, but we were fighting a wildfire with fire extinguisher yesterday. Given how some Alt Sweetling owners were expressing themselves in the thread, I thought the best thing would be to give them a space as a comfort group. I can see how that would reek of exclusivity, though, and understand the sentiment being expressed here. I can admit we made a mistake here and unpin it, and apologize, and try to make it right with the community, but on the other hand, how we behaved as members was completely out of line. Mods can't be online all the time, so when things like this happen when no mod can take care of it, snap decisions had to be made. 

 

Please feel free to ping me directly here or PM me, I did what I felt was right at the time, as did Starscream. I'll be back online later.

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Well, that does clear things out a bit, for me at least. I can definitely understand how all of this was a knee-jerk reaction. Thanks for the clarification, LadyLyzar. :)

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Thanks PDC - but what we are objecting to SO much is the idea that they get together to make recommendations top offer up to TJ and we pink owners' views are to be deleted. THAT is what is so not OK. THAT is divisive. I entirely sympathise with their wanting to commiserate among themselves - but when I even said that in this thread, and said that that was fine, but an exclusive petition from them alone was not OK, I was told that we could set up our OWN chat and do the same.

 

It does still say that the forms saying what would be best will be deleted if they come from pink owners.

 

Quote

Only Alt sweetling owners forms will be saved, the rest will be deleted. PM them to Starscream on the forums. (or we can post them on the forums as well along with chat logs when they happen)

 

Edited by Fuzzbucket

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3 minutes ago, LadyLyzar said:

It was poorly worded.  She was upset and is also only human like the rest of us.  Nobody's perfect guys.

 

Apparently several alt owners contacted her and were very upset about what went down, hence the idea for a "safe space" to speak.  Emotions were raw on that end too (sound familiar?)

 

I don't speak IRC controls well, but the idea behind giving voice was that if the channel needed to be muted (something about a mod mode or somesuch where only voiced users and mods can speak) because people were screaming at alt owners, they would still be able to speak and hold their discussion regardless of drama.  After discussion we figured that wasn't a good idea.  Trouble can be dealt with on a case by case basis.

 

By causing trouble, I mean people who were throwing insults and making broad assumptions about parts of the user base that were hateful.  In other words, failing to respect others which is always the first requirement of the forum or chat.

 

I personally feel the scroll requirement thing was a knee jerk reaction.  I own alts myself and I was pretty hacked about the stuff being thrown around on both ends.  Regardless, the scroll requirement of owning alts has been removed to eliminate confusion.

 

I hope this helps.

 

(bolding mine)

 

This is exactly what upsets me the most, though. It seems, imo, that making an exclusive chat for a small group of users (and requiring alt-scroll proof in order to contribute) is the exact *opposite* of respecting others. Was the thread blowing up, sure, were there insults and drama on *both* sides, yes. But it's completely *disrespecting* 'normal' users to deliberately create and *advertise* a chat that specifically excludes us! Respect is the first rule of the forum, but this entire thing has been *completely* disrespectful to us non-alt users. Mods themselves are being completely disrespectful, and that's the biggest issue imo.

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That's the trouble though - it was never meant to be completely exclusive.  All it was meant to be was a place for people to go without being judged for owning something given out 8 years ago, while discussing the completely unexpected changes that affected dragons they currently own.  I own alts and had no idea this was even coming.

 

Again, I apologize for how things have blown up like this.  Nobody's perfect.

 

*passes out cookies*

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People are human. I’m happy with the apology and explanations given and the actions being taken. I hope as people calm down they feel comfortable returning to the suggestion thread. :)

 

 

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An apology is graciously accepted and I thank you both for it.

 

However, I still feel that the chat should not result in a petition, rather it should be a discussion location. The petition is really the worst part of this all; especially because it was going to be sent directly to TJ by a staff member when we non-alt owners had no staff member to write a petition for us. 

 

No one is objecting to alt owners having a space to discuss things away from all the drama - no one can begrudge them that. But it is not professional nor is it comfortable to think that a staff member will be trying to sway TJ on the basis of a small group of people. Especially when that staff member has stated that they wanted alts to be different if they were released (so they weren't like their exclusive originals), and given some very firm opinions on the subject.

 

I would feel much more comfortable if the moderators who have tried to keep things neutral (the forum moderators) were the ones to direct this chat, especially as some of you are also alt sprite owners, and if that's what it was all about, then I feel that would be far more appropriate.

 

I do think that it was "never meant to be completely exclusive" is a lot of backtracking, though. The Dragoness pointed out a forum made by Star herself where you needed to show proof of alt ownership, and Star stated herself that non-alt-owners would not be considered in the petition. Poor wording, knee-jerk reaction, whatever it was. I just want TJ to be aware of all the posts made by all sides and to see everything that was said, because there was definitely exclusivity attempted. I understand that you guys, as forum moderators, need to keep the peace and put on a good face for DC and make the situation seem better, and I appreciate that it's not easy. However, I hope TJ can see the full scope of the situation and bases his decision on everything that was posted.

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