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1 minute ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 I entirely get that they want to lick their collective wounds privately, but... I still don't think it's OK for them to get up a petition privately without other players being able to express a view.

 

Unless of course those who feel differently can set one up too - pink owners who want it to revert (my lot); pink owners who want it all changed (Libby's lot) and  the other various groups who DON'T have alts. No alt owners could join in.

 

Which is factionalising and a Bad Thing altogether,

I don't see why you couldn't do that, not sure why people seem to be under the impression they cannot.  And I was more or less under the impression that was what was going on in that thread anyway.

Edited by Starscream

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Now I feel that my experience and the experiences of other non-alt owners who never once insulted Alt owners are being completely discounted. I am honestly hurt right now. 

 

I have been maligned repeatedly as well. As I said in the post that was recently deleted from the Suggestions thread, I assume for being related to the drama despite trying to find a more reasonable ground between the two sides, I have been subjected to personal offense more times than I can count in the past couple of days. I am a Pink Sweetling owner. I support making Alts available to everyone. And due to those two factors, I belong to a group that has been called entitled, greedy, selfish, ungrateful, accused of whining and screaming and of just wanting a participation trophy (for... the right to work for something? Okay) and subjected to barely-censored foul language. All of this just for wanting a fairer game, for wanting to come up with ways that everyone would be happy with the game and the holiday.

 

I feel that if Alt owners get their own official, sanctioned safe space, then perhaps I and the other users in this position deserve an official, mod-sanctioned safe space as well - except that I also agree with Fuzz in that all of this is factionalizing, deeply dividing the userbase, and telling a huge majority of players that our opinions don't count because we don't have this special thing.

Edited by LibbyLishly
Copypasta mistake

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3 minutes ago, Starscream said:

I don't see why you couldn't do that, not sure why people seem to be under the impression they cannot.  And I was more or less under the impression that was what was going on in that thread anyway.

 

But we don't WANT to. We want both sides to talk like, you know, a group of players talking. Not put up a Berlin wall and have an alt-group and a non-alt-group privately railing away at one another.

 

I still don't understand how this whole thing exploded so badly. People were just talking about ways to get more of a sprite around, same as the Aria / Frill / old CB Holiday / Snow Angel topics. There's no reason for private groups and insults.

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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From my understanding it is not a room for alt owners only.  Others are welcome to join the room, but they will not be given voice privileges unless they do indeed own alts.  It's possible I've got it wrong, if so, please correct me @Starscream

 

I do think this option is a bit on the extreme side, and probably not the route I would have taken.  However, given the climate in that thread toward people who do own alts, I can see why it has occurred.  Unfortunately it seems the mess always starts when I am sleeping :dry:

 

A lot of non-drama posts had to be hidden as well because they referenced parts of it.  Glowing embers to relight the wildfire, as it were.  I'm sorry for the extreme pruning but at this time, I feel that it was necessary.

Edited by LadyLyzar

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5 minutes ago, LibbyLishly said:

I feel that if Alt owners get their own official, sanctioned safe space, then perhaps I and the other users in this position deserve an official, mod-sanctioned safe space as well - except that I also agree with Fuzz in that all of this is factionalizing, deeply dividing the userbase, and telling a huge majority of players that our opinions don't count because we don't have this special thing.

Its not actually an official channel. it is not much different from arts or any other channel I have operated. Feel free to make your own channel. Just keep in mind drama from it cannot spill in to #dc

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5 minutes ago, LadyLyzar said:

From my understanding it is not a room for alt owners only.  Others are welcome to join the room, but they will not be given voice privileges unless they do indeed own alts.

I'm confused as to how it's any better for non-alt owners to be able to read the chat but not to be able to respond at all. Not that I am demanding speaking privileges for myself, as the "summit" will be happening at a time that I will not be available, but I'm vastly baffled as to how this is okay.

 

For what it's worth, I don't blame you for trying to just remove every single piece of the drama. I reposted the part of it that's relevant to the OP and I'm fine with that.

 

@StarscreamIt's official if it's pinned and being run by an official DC mod. If it's not to be official, I feel strongly that it needs to be unpinned and the running needs to be passed to a normal user.

Edited by LibbyLishly
Punctuation

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30 minutes ago, LadyLyzar said:

From my understanding it is not a room for alt owners only.  Others are welcome to join the room, but they will not be given voice privileges unless they do indeed own alts.  It's possible I've got it wrong, if so, please correct me @Starscream

 

I do think this option is a bit on the extreme side, and probably not the route I would have taken.  However, given the climate in that thread toward people who do own alts, I can see why it has occurred.  Unfortunately it seems the mess always starts when I am sleeping :dry:

 

A lot of non-drama posts had to be hidden as well because they referenced parts of it.  Glowing embers to relight the wildfire, as it were.  I'm sorry for the extreme pruning but at this time, I feel that it was necessary.

Ahem. 

Quote

Alt Sweetling Owners - Meet Starscream in IRC #Sweetling 3PM Cave Time Feb 11th 2018 to Discuss. Proof of Scroll Required.

Ahem. 

 

The climate was hostile and poisonous towards both alt owners opposing the release of alts and non-alt owners supporting it, as far as I can tell. It sure went both ways.

Edited by olympe

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27 minutes ago, LibbyLishly said:

 

@StarscreamIt's official if it's pinned and being run by an official DC mod. If it's not to be official, I feel strongly that it needs to be unpinned and the running needs to be passed to a normal user.

 

I have to agree here. I tried very hard to not see the chat as a bad thing, but making a *pinned* topic sort of pushed that over the edge. Pinning is something that can only be done by mods, therefore the chat has been approved by mods, which makes it seem pretty official to me. And it'd be different in my eyes if it was simply a place where alt-owners could go to feel safe and collect their thoughts, as I originally thought it was, but the fact that they are talking about putting together a *petition* to send to TJ is really not right. An exclusive chat that allows only a specific small group of people is bad on it's own, but when they use that exclusive chat to try to influence the owner of the game, that's where it really crosses the line imo.

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This is ridiculous. As I said in the other thread, this is NOT behavior befitting a moderator of ANY website's staff roster - forums, site, chat, I don't care WHAT type of Mod you are. Your job is to be NEUTRAL, and you are doing the explicit opposite of your job - taking sides. Granted, you are on that side as well, but that just makes it worse. You are abusing your position as a moderator, with direct contact to TJ, to push the wants and needs of one group ahead of another group. 

 

Resignation or not, I don't care at this point. Starscream has said that the chat is supposed to be for alt owners ONLY, and proof of scroll is required. 

 

I would only be okay with this if we also got a chat moderator (or another staff member) to hold an IRC for all non-alt owners, and were able to write our own petition and send it directly to TJ. The fact is, we don't WANT that. We, at least from what I've seen, want to discuss it and have the input of the alt owners. Implying you need a safe space to discuss is awful; the forum IS a safe space. That's exactly what moderators are supposed to make it for ALL of us. 

 

It's not fair that just because a staff member has alts + a direct line to TJ that the needs and wants of alt owners will be given a direct line, so to say, to TJ's ear. It's outrageous and unacceptable.

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The whole thread was pretty toxic. I finally bowed out of it for my own well-being. I saw both "factions" being insulted. Frankly, there should be no factions among us. But that thread has reached a dead end as far as I'm concerned and I won't be going back there to discuss anything! For what it's worth I will not be joining Star's chat, either. I can lick my wounds in private and don't like the idea of petitioning TJ.

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2 hours ago, LadyLyzar said:

From my understanding it is not a room for alt owners only.  Others are welcome to join the room, but they will not be given voice privileges unless they do indeed own alts.  It's possible I've got it wrong, if so, please correct me @Starscream

 

 

It says right on it that it is for alt owners only, and that you have to link your scroll to show that you have an alt.

 

And in starscream's sig:

Quote

Alt Sweetling Owners - Meet Starscream in IRC #Sweetling 3PM Cave Time Feb 11th 2018 to Discuss. Proof of Scroll Required.

 

And to shut out the views of pink owners is plain divisive.

2 hours ago, Starscream said:

Its not actually an official channel. it is not much different from arts or any other channel I have operated. Feel free to make your own channel. Just keep in mind drama from it cannot spill in to #dc

 

How is posting about, and linking to it here not bringing the drama right into DC ?

Edited by Fuzzbucket

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I am highly disappointed in the way the conversation is being taken away from us, to a private IRC. As has been said, it's one thing to just talk, it's another thing entirely for you to be directing a petition to TJ.

 

These are the kind of shenanigans that make me consider leaving this site. As much as I love dragons and sprites, it's so poorly managed that I am losing any respect for it.

 

Honestly, this site feels like an 'old boys club', and since I'm not one of the admin's buddies, I don't matter.

Edited by Dragon_Arbock

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To be fair - this is the first time I have seen anything this blatantly exclusive. On the whole the place is well modded. But this - no. I care rather less about the whole sweetling thing than I do about this.

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Shockingly enough I completely agree with @Dragon_Arbock this time around. It's very, very worrying to me, as a long-time player who has seen DC go through soooo much, that a mod would be allowed to blatantly abuse their power this way, blatantly exclude a large portion of users while making a *petition* to send to TJ that will *affect everyone*. Now, I maaay be able to be okay with a petition for something that *only* affected the people writing the petition, but that's not the case here. A small group of people are banding together to try to influence TJ about an issue that will affect *everyone* on the site, and that is really really not right. I'm *very* concerned about the fact that other mods approved the pinned post, that shows that other mods are not impartial at all and that's very very worrying for a normal user like me.

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I'm not going to lie, I've left sites over mods showing bias like the alt-Sweetling chat. Mods are supposed to be unbiased, striving to make sure everyone's opinion is heard, no matter what it is, while doing their best to keep things from going off the rails. I understand that some people have a problem with being impartial- it can be hard sometimes!- but I feel that it's part of a mod's job to do so anyway. 

Edited by prismatika

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I understand that the mods wanted to give Alt Sweetling owners a space when they were feeling attacked, but at the same time a private chat is quite divisive and I’d rather attacks simply be shut down on the forums itself. While some people on both sides might have been a bit too aggressive, most of us just want to have a peaceful discussion about the merits of sharing a sprite. We can’t do that if they’re leaving the forums to a private chat.

 

It’s also worth noting that the existence of such a chat has a negative affect beyond the obvious; it might not be being used by barely anyone at all, and thus not be a big deal, but having it there at all is raising tensions and making it seem like some huge schism is happening in the user base. I don’t think that’s the case, but again, it’s stirring the flames.

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy
Lmao what an autocorrect

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A private chat that has to do with some part of DC, whether created by a mod (especially when done so by a mod of any kind) or any normal member, should not be allowed. If you have something to discuss that revolves around DC, do so here on the forums. Not in an 'exclusive' chat made notably for a select group of people.

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12 minutes ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

I understand that the mods wanted to give Alt Sweetling owners a space when they were feeling attacked, but at the same time a private chat is quite divisive and I’d rather attacks simply be shut down on the forums itself. While some people on both sides might have been a bit too aggressive, most of us just want to have a peaceful discussion about the merits of sharing a sprite. We can’t do that if they’re leaving the forums to a private chat.

 

It’s also worth noting that the existence of such a chat has a negative affect beyond the obvious; it might not be being used by barely anyone at all, and thus not be a big deal, but having it there at all is raising tensions and making it seem like some huge schism is happening in the user base. I don’t think that’s the case, but again, it’s stirring the flames.

*Nods* I think a HUGE part of the issue is that everyone's emotions ( on both sides of the issue) Are still pretty hot about this.

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Just now, JavaTigress said:

*Nods* I think a HUGE part of the issue is that everyone's emotions ( on both sides of the issue) Are still pretty hot about this.

 

They are indeed. And this exclusive IRC thing has made it 1000% times worse.

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I backed out of the drama in the original Sweetling thread, so sorry if I'm missing something. But from what I have seen, I'm really disappointed in this community. Yes, feelings were hurt yesterday. Heck, my own feelings were hurt when someone personally called me out. So I understand that. I fully respect having a place for alt owners to chat amongst like-minded individuals without worrying that someone will get defensive and start another fight. But what I do not respect is a mod going out of their way to publicly showcase said chat and then planning to create a petition without any input from non-alt owners. I'm sorry, but alt owners are not the only people on this site. If an official decision that affects all of is going to happen, not only should it include us pink owners, but it should also include the creator herself. And I'm not going to lie, I feel kind of offended by all of this, even if they are just pixels. It's disrespectful to just group all of the non-alt owners together and label us as greedy whiners when the vast majority has been trying to protect the wishes of the alt owners. I also worry that this off-site exclusive chat will lead to people being bashed behind their backs for the stance they may have taken on the forum, especially with there being no repercussions for such behavior, unlike here.

 

Whatever happens, I just hope that no one leaves the site because of it.  Things were tense enough last night before this chat was announced right in the midst of it. If a mod had just PM'd alt owners and invited them to speak in a group conversation over PM, that would have been much, much different. Advertising it in the center of the hurt feelings and drama felt like a slap in the face.

 

I have no problem with alt owners personally. Don't feel bad for something you didn't choose. This message wasn't directed at any of you in any way. But this exclusiveness...this is unreasonable, especially for a site that has been trying to move away from exclusivity recently.

Edited by The Dragoness

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... And now I most express how inappropriate I find it for a mod to close a suggestion thread regarding mod behavior.

 

I'm out. This forum has officially become detrimental to my quality of life and I'm going to go tend to my dragons in peace and see if the game itself still makes me happy enough to forget the bad taste all of this.has left in my mouth.

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Yeeeaaah, I get that people are upset so a thread like that *might* end up having more drama, but it seems fairly biased and censorship-y to shut down a suggestion thread that has not actually created any drama at all yet, especially when it is about a serious issue that really does need to be addressed. If we aren't allowed to talk about it in a suggestion thread, what exactly would be allowed? I can't imagine having every single person that's upset by this personally PM TJ because there is not other option is actually what it's come to?

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Well, it's good to see things haven't changed much in the last 8 years. Even then, when there was mention of inappropriate behavior by mods by mere users, discussion got closed, sometimes wiped and (sometimes) warns issued. And, while pages upon pages of drama and discussion have been wiped in the most recent example - discussion being wiped because the posts might have "referenced drama", the biggest outrage gets pretty much sanctioned by the mod community while pretty much censoring any discussion on it.

 

Honestly, I have no words to express how disappointed I am with the way the mods involved are handling the situation.

 

2 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

Yeeeaaah, I get that people are upset so a thread like that *might* end up having more drama, but it seems fairly biased and censorship-y to shut down a suggestion thread that has not actually created any drama at all yet, especially when it is about a serious issue that really does need to be addressed. If we aren't allowed to talk about it in a suggestion thread, what exactly would be allowed? I can't imagine having every single person that's upset by this personally PM TJ because there is not other option is actually what it's come to?

Maybe we could convince a mod to create a semi-official IRC channel for us? Of course, we'd need some kind of verification, like a link to our DCF profile and a signature stating that we actually asked to be allowed to speak in said chat. 

Edited by olympe

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I had no idea we weren't allowed to make suggestions for things because they're "TJ's decision." Isn't everything on this website TJ's decision. Isn't every suggestion on this website at TJ's discretion.

 

What's the point of any suggestion, any forum feedback, any heckin' thing on this forum if you're going to delete things that TJ needs to decide on. Dragon requests, suggestions, any sort of feedback forum. Why do they even exist if we're not allowed to discuss/bring up things that are important to us, as a userbase? 

 

It's utter nonsense. 

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