We want Forum Feedback!

[SickSoul]

I think news posts should remain open. Saying thank you is fine, but gets out of hand when people start spamming about OMG I CANT WAIT orOMG THIS IS AWESOME After the 10th page.

[Nectaris]

Personally I would only like stricter news articles if discussion would be allowed elsewhere as well. I have seen other forums where news threads are restricted and it makes the entire forum feel unwelcoming to me.

[Syaoransbear]

Perhaps there can be two threads made upon opening a new News thread. One that is for questions, and one that is just for comments?

[skauble]

Perhaps there can be two threads made upon opening a new News thread. One that is for questions, and one that is just for comments?

This is exactly what I would like to see. There could be a link in the original news post that went to an SD thread for comments, celebration, and thanks, and the news post could be used solely for questions and clarifications.

 

The news posts move so fast that it's almost impossible to keep up with information if a moderator posts answers to questions somewhere in the middle. That leads to the same questions being asked repeatedly which only increases the post count even more. I certainly don't think the enthusiasm should be suppressed, but locating it elsewhere would be incredibly helpful, IMO.

[bantymom]

I agree, it's very accurate and reminds me of my first few weeks on these forums. Another issue I found rather intimidating at first was the many burnt (=locked) topics, the burnt scroll looks pretty hostile to me.

 

Is that what those images are on the closed threads? hehe, I never knew that! I couldn't tell. No, I guess not very welcoming. Perhaps a gate like one finds behind a drawbridge might convey the closed (rather than destroyed) state of the thread?

 

I've reread my post and it really sounds like a complaint. It isn't, it was just my perception. I'm still nervous about posting unless invited (like in this thread). I am still very slowly wading through all the gazillion threads that sound important (this thread alone took me a couple of hours last night because I was reading it very carefully and taking notes).

 

Here is part of the conundrum: Spam is yucky! I don't like wading through spam to get to real information or discussion. But a feeling of things too strict isn't good either. I don't have the answer, and I don't envy the Mods their jobs. What is a comment to one user is spam to another. I have seen a Mod work very hard in a thread to keep it on topic as it wandered off more than once, and he or she was really very polite about it.

 

But when you first get here, you don't know that. You haven't read enough of anything to know what is considered spam and what isn't. You don't know how the Mods will react.

 

I also totally agree on the News Threads. They are impossible to follow because they grow so incredibly quickly. Maybe it would make sense to put up a rule that allows you to post there only if you have an important question or can answer the very same question?

 

I do think news/announcement threads should remain open for questions, clarification, and discussion. Two threads just means you would have the same problem in the other thread. And the problem with just telling people to only write "important" comments is that the perception of what is important or what will contribute to the discussion varies by person. Cracking down on "unimportant" comments leads to hurt feelings.

 

I believe that News threads are special enough and rare enough that they deserve special attention. In my poultry forum, announcement threads are patrolled by me religiously. I do ask that people stay focused and avoid comments that do not contribute anything, but I don't punish anyone. They know that I go through those threads and remove posts after they have had their say. I add the answers to the questions to the original post (but here the second post might work better for this, and I think I might do it that way myself now), and add the pieces of discussion there as well, but that's because I myself don't like having to go through pages of reaction to catch up on something.

 

But again, I wouldn't close them or prohibit people from posting things they feel are useful, not even discouraging the "oh wow!" posts, because I just remove them as I go through. But see, my people are used to me doing that.

 

[jumpsnake]

When I joined, I was a bit put off by the rules. They just seemed... well, overdone. And when a newbie makes a mistake the regular members of the forum seem to jump all over them, immediately. The mods are usually much nicer when they either correct the newb or close the thread (ex. eggspam.)

 

I dunno. I'm tired. I know people ignore rules unless you are in their face.

 

About the news threads... a great idea to have one for real questions/ announcements, and one for just OMG so excited! type posts.

 

 

[Syaoransbear]

When I joined, I was a bit put off by the rules. They just seemed... well, overdone. And when a newbie makes a mistake the regular members of the forum seem to jump all over them, immediately. The mods are usually much nicer when they either correct the newb or close the thread (ex. eggspam.)

Technically, it's not allowed for members to jump all over a noob if they've made a thread that's against the rules like eggspam, a duplicate, etc. By the rules, the only person who should be responding to those threads is a moderator when they close it, otherwise it's spam.

 

The reason why it still happens is because of regular members not really knowing those rules, those rules not being universally written across the forum, and inconsistent punishment for breaking those rules.

[Obscure_Trash]

As this topic was designed to get feedback on the feeling of the forum - if we're too harsh or too lax and how to fix that, what could be done better on the forum, etc. - please feel free to suggest other features in their own topic. :3

 

Now here are my thoughts:

 

First off, R subforum isn't going to happen. If GD gets another subforum, it will be a mature debate subforum, where the rating will stay PG13.

After serious thought on this, I don't think it's needed. Right now, I agree, there are problems in GD. However, I think the solution for this is for the GD mods to keep communicating with each other and stay on the same page and for users to remember the golden rule. Users need to be warned if they are rude or attack another user. I've seen users call other users' trolls, tell users to ignore other users, call other users' opinions absurd or laughable or stupid or ignorant, and not get rebuked for doing so. Member's need to realize this is not okay. If it's caught, it needs to be reported. And finally, a mod needs to step in and take care of it. Not doing so does create a tense and cranky atmosphere in GD, especially.

 

 

Anyone who's been warned by me recently can see how much I've put in to explaining warns for you guys. I do that because of something that was brought up in GD, in their sticky'd rules. Being able to see secret topics and such, it can just totally slip your mind that spam topics are moved after a few days and users can no longer see what they were warned for, or etc.

 

When it was brought up elsewhere, I nixed the idea of also PM'ing a user when they are warned, because, to me, that just seems like it would make the forum more unfriendly, like I'm trying to rub the warn in your face or something. But if that's something the majority of users want, I can certainly start doing it.

 

 

I don't like the idea of closing help so that only moderators can answer questions. Questions get answered a lot quicker if anyone can answer them, as even with a couple of mods, they'll still be quite a wait time between topics being made and topics finally be answered. Plus, I don't know the answer to everything. Sometimes it's something I haven't run into yet or don't remember or it's a glitch. Without other people being able to say that the same thing has happened to them and it must be a glitch, things would get done a lot slower. Plus, how would I know when to close or clean the topics out? Unless a topic gets to be really old, I don't close it as answered until the OP has let me know it's answered, most the time by posting their thanks.

 

 

I also don't really like the idea of karma. I was on another forum with a feature like that and it just didn't make me comfortable with that. And if only mods were in control of that or making a caste like system...well, I wouldn't be comfortable doing something like that. It's like ranking users to say "you're better than all these people" or something. :<

 

"Thanking" posts on the other hand, is an interesting idea. Could improve your mood to come back and see a post you made with ten thanks. However, I am iffy on the idea - because what about someone being rude to another member and receiving ten thanks for that. The abuse the system could see makes me wary, though thanking a post would also helpfully cut down on "+1" or "this" spam. o3o

 

 

Someone mentioned cleaning this area more, which is kind of funny, considering I cleaned it out about a week ago. |D With my settings set at the max number of topics per page, I cut down suggestions/requests from 16 pages to 6. I got rid of topics with little to no posts, topics with stuff that had been implemented, and some duplicates I found. I wanted to go through and re-clean and get rid of some duplicates I knew I had left, but then got suspended and the job was never finished.

 

DR I've been hesitant on cleaning. I did a little, but wanted more input before doing anything.

 

In the concept overload thread, someone mentioned that the amount of cleaning this forum does is a bit daunting. I think it's necessary because of the amount of bandwidth and space this forum and site can take up from the places hosting it, but I was wondering if people maybe felt the same? Is the amount of cleaning too much or too little or just fine? Does it make the forum seem less friendly?

 

 

Part of the reason I put up the topic in help about what mods could do was to help people get to know how the forum ran, because it can be very daunting just to join a forum in and of itself. I would also kind of like to see mod intro's come back, even if they stayed locked to prevent spam. It helps you see who the mods are quickly, and also be able to see what they're like. Kind of like an ice breaker to help you feel more comfortable around them. I try to be available and friendly to users, but joining a forum - any forum - can be scary, especially when the mods seem like the invisible people behind the curtains that you're not supposed to look at. 3:

We could just have one sticky'd topic in introductions where all the mods could have one post in it. :3

 

We actually have a more expanded write-up of the rules that I think could help in explaining some things that we mods seem to uphold without it being written anywhere, but I don't know what TJ's plans are for it. But I agree that we do need to expand upon that and discuss what PG13 means and outlines. I know it's tough on you guys to try and figure out where the lines lay when even us mods can flounder on that, trying to stick on the same page and figure out what's too far and what's not.

 

 

I don't see why the artist section should be taken away. If for only one reason, that I think it gives for more opportunities for new artists' to shine in dragon requests and be able to be made in cave artists. But yes, it is a privileged and if it is abused it can be taken away from an individual or the group. Unless that line is crossed, though, I think it can stay.

 

 

I also have to agree that posting here can be daunting, trying not to post secrets and talk about things and such. When I first joined we weren't allowed to say which dragon came out of which egg. I can still feel that hush, hush tone around here, still feel like users are afraid to say things about this game on our official site, and that can be frustrating as a member of any age. I myself have been struggling with this. I just wanna keep users somewhere inside of the loop, because it can be very frustrating to know absolutely nothing about a game you've played for two years or two days, and have been suspended twice for it.

 

My own fault, as the rules are clearly laid out for me, but I do feel like there isn't enough leeway on this forum (things I said I thought were small and insignificant, yet enough to tell the users I trusted them and they deserved a say and deserved to know what might be going on, and yet I was still suspended). We should be able to discuss dragcave on dragcave, and I'm not sure how much you guys feel like you can do that, if I don't even feel like you can really do that.

 

 

I am also for more description mods. I can go through about 1000 descriptions a day...if I find the time to be able to concentrate on them. When we get backlogged like we are descriptions can take a while to go through. I think it would make the site more fun if we could consistently get through descriptions in a timely manner. Have mods specifically for descriptions that don't also have to worry about modding duties on the forum would be nice.

 

I also like that I saw a user mention mods blurring section lines and helping each other out. _Z_ has stepped into DR before to tell a user who was insulting others to calm down, and I think this is perfectly fine. Without her, a flamewar might have broken out. And, even if she can't close or move topics in help, she does hold as much authority here as I do. I, myself, have posted in news topics before to tell users' to calm down or whatnot. Ultimately, the consequences of what's gone on should lay with the section mods (or a global mod), but I don't see why we can't blur the line between sections more, especially for things like drama.

 

 

I also think it could improve forum relations between everybody if we had a chat other than CPA and IRC, but from a mod standpoint, that would be really hard to mod. CPA has as much drama pop up in it as all the debate topics do combined. I can't imagine a whole chat section. I would be willing to try this out in a test run to see if we could do it or not, though, if all mods could mod in the chat section.

 

Chatting in the help section - I do post a lot to tell people to cut this out.

 

Piling, however, I usually don't say anything about, because I don't want to discourage people from answering questions. However, I agree that there doesn't need to be five people answering the same thing on a question, especially when it's one that has been answered for an hour or more and they bump it up for...reasons I'm not sure what they are.

 

If I post in these for people to stop doing this or even just warn people, are you guys okay with this? Or does it make the forum seem scarier? D|

 

 

And it's 3:30 in the morning and I probably haven't addressed everything I meant to, so I'll definitely be back to this, but my brain isn't properly functioning anymore and it probably wouldn't be smart to continue to try and articulate things right now. <3

 

(Oh, as a sidenote of something I saw mentioned here quite a few times - I did add the bit about zombies to the FAQ a while ago. o3o I also saw someone mention that it could be more clearly organized - any suggestions on how to do so?)

[skinst]

First off, R subforum isn't going to happen. If GD gets another subforum, it will be a mature debate subforum, where the rating will stay PG13.

After serious thought on this, I don't think it's needed. Right now, I agree, there are problems in GD. However, I think the solution for this is for the GD mods to keep communicating with each other and stay on the same page and for users to remember the golden rule. Users need to be warned if they are rude or attack another user. I've seen users call other users' trolls, tell users to ignore other users, call other users' opinions absurd or laughable or stupid or ignorant, and not get rebuked for doing so. Member's need to realize this is not okay. If it's caught, it needs to be reported. And finally, a mod needs to step in and take care of it. Not doing so does create a tense and cranky atmosphere in GD, especially.

Sometimes though, it's been better off FOR users to ignore particular posts in some threads, because it IS a troll. How is ignoring someone, or telling someone to ignore someone, a warnable offence? Ignorning people is often the best way to go about dealing with people, as well as reporting said person to the mods.

 

It seems to me that every single tiny little thing that people do wrong is warned for in GD, right down to an accidental filter evasion, or for standing up for themselves in a POLITE way.

 

Rudeness is subject to interpretation, after all. Not everything that one person says will be rude or polite to anyone else. My mother, for instance, finds me to be a very rude person no matter how much I try to be polite.

 

More clean cut rules are needed for warnable offences.

 

The GD section will never be a cool place to hang out because no one can debate or speak their mind freely. And by that, I don't mean going swear happy or anything, but by being normal, such as being offended by another's post. That is going to happen in debates, and as it stands at the moment? No one can even be THAT without being warned.

 

I think that along with other things is probably why people are asking for a higher rated section.

[Alanna-Lena]

Wow Socky... your comments on most of that line up smack bang with my opinions. That's coming from a girl that's an active mod on a forum, so I know what you're talking about. Let's start on my breakdown

 

A completely R rated subforum is just asking for trouble, since it'll become an instant haven for the trolls of the forum. A mature debate subforum can be just as tricky, since its a place mods will naturally avoid. The difference is a debate subforum can be restrained much easier, but you will find users getting warned for debating a moderator's call. That is unavoidable, since they'll use the principle of it being a debate forum to back up their actions.

 

So your choice for a mature debate forum is a good one, since it'll shift a lot of tension into a environment more suited for it. GD is most certainly a place I and many others actively avoid. Quite upsetting actually, but a big forum attracts a lot more trolls then I want to meet.

 

~~

 

No karma is a call a hell lot of mod's agree on, for the exact same reason's you've listed socky If I could find my colleagues post I would quote it to prove this opinion is not localised to one forum.

 

~~

 

Currently I've found that the forums here are cleared more frequently then boards more then three times its size. (in terms of forums and subforums) Lock and make a new topic after about the 400th page or so, like has been applied to CPA. It means people can backtrack and see if there's a trend of agreement. Clearing seems to be the thing here, and I don't think it really is making the topics more productive at all.

 

Deleting little doublup topics is justified, but think about using merge a bit more often. Also, do remember to link the users. I've seen mod's posts without them, so that's another thing that could be fixed up.

 

~~

 

Oh the rules, there is a uniform trend of 'unspoken rules' that carries from one forum to another. It would be great to see the in full version, and with permission use it as reference to construct a full version for my own forum. Its a vital part of any forum, since it helps mods back up statements.

 

Rather then always publicly warning a user, PMing them is a good thing to do. It stops them from being ashamed and feeling guilty, which is not a light mods want to be seen in. PM's are also more personal, and will help get users used to conversing with mods more often. Also, if you're not afraid to, flex the rules a bit and do a touch or RP to let them know that you're not a scary thing. Works for me

[paradoxangel]

More description mods sounds like a great idea. I know I hear a lot of people complain their descriptions aren't being approved, while I hear mods complain there simply aren't enough hours in the day. Mods JUST for descriptions may or may not help. Just tabling the idea.

[Alanna-Lena]

Oh, and has anyone ever suggested a official Feedback subforum? It'd be a great addition

[lanette]

 

- I don't like the idea of a R-rated/Mature Content section on the forum. I'm not underage, but I still remember being an underage kid/teen, and how enticing it was to get into anything that I was not supposed to and finding out all sorts of tricks to do so. I like DC because it seems to be a rather family oriented game; one that I wouldn't mind seeing my kids get on when they become old enough to use internet. Having a R-rated section where potentially ****ography may be discussed (when next? various drugs and their effects?) would mean that a parent who has a kid who is old enough to be allowed to use internet may have to be constantly supervising to make sure that they don't somehow get into the R-rated section, assuming it may not get blocked or filtered by some Parental Control feature. I don't know many parents who have that kind of time on their hands. I think it's much better to keep the forum PG-13.

 

 

- Way to see when a member was last online...I think this is a good idea. Now that I live in the USA I don't have a problem coordinating trades/giftings all that much, but I know how hard it was when I was still back home in Sri Lanka. And since there are users from all over the world, it would be useful to see whether your intended trade/gift partner didn't show up for a set appointment or whether you just missed them - especially if the egg/hatchie involved is supposed to be a gift and it is currently locking your scroll.

 

 

- I would like to see modding/warn guidelines to be better defined. At the moment what can cause a thread wipe/lock or a warn are pretty obscure and seems to depend largely on the personal view of the mod that is dealing with the particular issue. And there should be consistency. For example, I believe there is some guideline that states that "Attempts to bypass the censor will get you warned", but on this thread itself (page 5) a mod did exactly that by substituting "0" for "o". While I don't have any personal grievance against this mod or any other mod for that matter, I think rules should be equally applicable to everyone regardless of "status".

 

 

- I agree with those who say that the forum's "vibe" is not that friendly - especially for newbies and also for people who seem to have opinions different than those of the majority (main reason for my astronomical post count of 403 within over 2 years on the site). Several posts before mine have described this in some detail with their personal experiences, so no need for me to add more I think.

 

 

So, that's my two cents...

Edited December 27, 2010 by lanette

[CatCreature]

Having a R-rated section where potentially ****ography may be discussed (when next? various drugs and their effects?)

There is already a drug thread in GD.

 

The GD section will never be a cool place to hang out because no one can debate or speak their mind freely. And by that, I don't mean going swear happy or anything, but by being normal, such as being offended by another's post. That is going to happen in debates, and as it stands at the moment? No one can even be THAT without being warned.

 

I think that along with other things is probably why people are asking for a higher rated section.

Exactly. I'm not asking for R-rating as in -pics and details of murder combined with swearing. Just more heated debates where we're not afraid of speaking our minds.

[Obscure_Trash]

I think I babbled and was confusing. By all means, if a user is annoying you or they just seem like a troll, please ignore them. It makes life easier and happier for you and for us. But you cannot state publicly that everyone should "ignore user x".

 

Rudeness is tricky, especially online, since you can't read body language or hear tone or inflection. Even with more clear guidelines, it is going to really be up to mod interpretation of whether or not something is rude or not. There are times we're unsure about things and we ask the opinions of our fellow mods and it comes down to majority rules.

 

But we can work on more clear guidelines for this. I believe it's already better addressed in the expanded rules we have written up, but, as I said, I don't know TJ's opinion of them, and he's the only one who can add them. o3o

 

I don't really agree with GD being more strict than the rest of the forums. I've discussed with other mods, back before we hired new GD mods, and we all agreed that things that happened in GD and that user's got away with were things that users' wouldn't get away with in other sections. Now even with active mods, I still see this, and yet it seems to be GD that people mention first when we ask about an unfriendly vibe.

 

 

Oh! Something else I wanted to say - I'd like the description of the help section edited a bit. Right now it's "Having a problem with the site? Post here." which, for the small amount of people who do read the section descriptions, I think off puts them. Makes it sound like you can only post in the help section if the site is glitching or something.

 

I think something along the lines of "Have a question about the site or are having a problem with it? Post here." may help with some of the topics that are site questions being asked elsewhere and may also make help seem more friendly towards questions.

 

 

I don't think a higher rated forum is needed for more mature discussions. This forum is PG13 and, as far as I know, TJ has no plans on changing that. I really think that the debates and discussions need to stay just that - people need to stop flaming and arguing and stay on track debating and discussing, instead. If anything, I'd support a general disclaimer of "mature discussion/debate" in the subtitle. Even if another subforum is made for mature discussions/debates, I think the rating would stay PG13, and I don't see why it should be raised.

 

We do still need to get together and discuss PG13 and what it means and how much we want to allow here, or at least get on the same page about it, and hopefully with Christmas over and a bit of a break ahead, we can find time to do this and come to some conclusions to be able to lay out for you guys.

 

 

So you guys would like to see more PM'ing and verbal warns rather than officially warning?

 

How would we separate this out? What is a warnable offense and what is just a PM'able offense?

 

I know warns can be really daunting and depressing, but it is an easy way to keep track of who has done what before. You can search back through a warn log and easily see, "oh, this person's been here two days and already has four warns" or "oh, this person's been here for a year and this is their first warn" and see, for instance, if their behavior in a thread that degraded into flames is something normal or if they might have just been having a bad day.

 

I'm not saying no to warning in other ways before officially warning, just wondering how you guys would separate this out and judge when to do which. :3

 

 

First thought on a feedback forum is that it's great. I'm wondering what kind of stuff would really go in there, though and if it could just be combined with Suggestions/Requests or what?

 

 

I agree with the point on introductions. I wander in there occasionally and I'll see four people telling the person to PM them if they have any questions, but none of those four people have answered the person's question that they have right there in the introduction. o__O

For site mods, it makes sense, because they not only have to go through all the introductions and approve or delete them, but then they have to make sure and go bump the thread up to the first page so the new user can get some attention in their thread.

I'll admit, that I use a copy'pasta, because it's hard to come up with a greeting for each person that's different and individualized, but when I do see that the person has a question, I also make a point to make sure I answer it.

 

Not sure there's really anything we can do about things like this, except for those of us that notice that spending more time in introductions and making sure to answer those questions.

[skinst]

I think I babbled and was confusing. By all means, if a user is annoying you or they just seem like a troll, please ignore them. It makes life easier and happier for you and for us. But you cannot state publicly that everyone should "ignore user x".

So you're telling me, that if a new user comes into a thread and is insulted by someone who is a reknown for being a troll, that someone else can't say "that person is reknown for being a troll, and it's best to ignore them." ?

 

Am I the only one seeing the problem with that? O_o

 

Rudeness is tricky, especially online, since you can't read body language or hear tone or inflection. Even with more clear guidelines, it is going to really be up to mod interpretation of whether or not something is rude or not. There are times we're unsure about things and we ask the opinions of our fellow mods and it comes down to majority rules.

 

But we can work on more clear guidelines for this. I believe it's already better addressed in the expanded rules we have written up, but, as I said, I don't know TJ's opinion of them, and he's the only one who can add them. o3o

 

I don't really agree with GD being more strict than the rest of the forums. I've discussed with other mods, back before we hired new GD mods, and we all agreed that things that happened in GD and that user's got away with were things that users' wouldn't get away with in other sections. Now even with active mods, I still see this, and yet it seems to be GD that people mention first when we ask about an unfriendly vibe.

 

Whether or not that's true, that should be an indication of the fact that the subject matter discussed in GD can get above the PG-13 rating, regardless of whether or not people try to be polite or just downright act offended, which happens in several of the threads in GD.

 

Someone once posted in the Abortion thread saying that it was rape victims faults that they were raped because they didn't defend themselves properly. People were FURIOUS, and rightly so. Yet if that had of happened now, under the current way the section is being moderated, people would have been warned for simply expressing how disgusted they were with that post, NOT the poster.

 

GD has an unfriendly vibe because, as I said before, people are not free to express how they feel. And that is wrong.

[crazywargod]

Well I have found that anybody who tries to argue their opinion and the mass of the topic doesn't like it you are labeled and called a troll.

 

Not everybody that argues their opinion is a troll.

[Aviatus]

I also think there should be much, much, much more transparency concerning the mods and artists.  I understand why the mods need a private forum, but I think a private forum for the artists is more detrimental than helpful.  If annoying jerkwads are giving the artists guff, ban the annoying jerkwads instead of hiding the artists away in a little room.  I feel like some of them (not naming names, mostly because I don't remember or can't spell them) are subconsciously taking advantage of this.  I get the feeling from the forum that the artists want something completely different out of Dragon Cave than the rest of the users, or at least some of the rest of the users, and separating the artists from the rest of us just serves to propagate that.

 

I'm digressing here, but I just want to add one more thing on that subject.  The DR forum is way, way too closed.  I occasionally read something on there and am afraid that anything I say will be either taken as rude and offensive or ignored completely.  I think sprites should be presented to the entire userbase so they can comment on them before they are put on the site, so we can avoid issues like "the Albino's neck looks weird."  I think this sort of reviewing would cut down on the "cave cloggers" and prevent Frill-esque fiascoes in the future.

 

Also, on a completely unrelated note:  I would like to see something in a person's profile saying when they were last on the site.

Yes, yes yes yessssssssssss

 

I mean I understand the purpose of it, lowering drama and keeping some things secret, but it really isn't helpful, if anything let more people in (maybe a cut off by post count). I mean really is there a point? If things are to be worked on privately they can be worked on privately without having a secret forum, and if there are dramallamas, just bring down the ban hammer and call it a day

 

@skinst

 

No, no you're not >>

Edited December 28, 2010 by Sceptile100

[skinst]

It actually has been greatly helpful for organising not only secret releases, but events, and new features. A lot of the things that are done in the Artist Section, sooner or later, are brought out into the open for discussion.

 

And yes I know there have been drama llama's in the past about silly things that the artists as a whole should have handled a lot better. And there have been times where forum feedback should have been sought out. The artists and mods all know that, and have therefore started doing that.

 

But think of the Artist section as an unfiltered radio. All of the good stuff, the bad stuff, and the ugly stuff is in there, and only the good things come out of that section for everyone to see.

 

Seriously you guys. The artist section is not some giant safe. :|

[MURDERcomplexx]

I think in GD we need to be a little more cautious before we label someone a troll. When an incident happens like the one yesterday it'd be safe to say "Yeah, don't bother the guy is a troll."

But when someone comes in with a different view, no matter how irritating it may be, we need to be careful that maybe they are serious at the comment, and they can be quite offended at it, which presents a problem.

I'm just as guilty as everyone else at getting frustrated with people in debates, but if it's seriously gotten to the point where I'm about to throw a brick through my screen, I tend to just step away from the computer.

 

There's nothing wrong with intense debate, it's what makes this place fun, but we just need to be cautious before we label someone as a troll.

 

/2 cents

[Aviatus]

Sooner or later being the operative phrase, with sprites and concepts not being able to be looked over by the general public and certain site matters as well

 

The problem I'm having here is it has created a certain loop, either you're in or out, and in the loop are TJ, mods, and the in-cave artists, that's it. Now I'm not saying artists have a direct influence on what happens on site, but because one is an artist, one gets into this loop to have private influence in secret releases, secret projects, holiday releases, certain site run projects (I assume artists new about things like GoN's and The decorating contest). This is something that every artist has a voice in, something that everyone within the loop has some influence over. It doesn't matter how long you've been on the site how good your behavior is, how much you've contributed to the site outside of art, if you aren't an in-cave artist (or mod, granted) you have no voice in any of that. If you remember the La Femme release, there were a lot of problems users had, and while there was a great deal of useless whining there were a few valid crit's (which granted, were fixed), but if the project had been done in the open we wouldn't have had all the drama we did when it was done behind closed doors.

 

I recognize that the section isn't a sanctuary and of course it, like anything else, has its problems, but I think it would be more beneficial for not only the creative process but the general health of the site if it was shut down

[skinst]

That's why I said that I was aware of how past projects were handled, including La Femme. I am aware of the problems with that release, but if you also remember, user feedback WAS sought out, and it turned into a flame war.

 

And if you also remember, projects like the Ascended Project, for example, were also out in public for all to see. THAT was moved because it turned into a festival of drama.

 

I was once a regular user too, you know. I still AM a regular user. The only difference between me now and me before is I have SOME input into how SOME events are run.

 

And I'm telling you now; closing down the artist section (which has about as much chance of happening as hell freezing over, by the way) will NOT do any good. It'll just mean there are no surprises, no where for the artists to go when they want to organise things with others, and no more events.

[Aviatus]

It's not like it's impossible to be organized without a DC sanctioned secret forum. Of course some things can be secret, certain events are ruined without that level of secrecy, but the problems are still there, you're even acknowledging them and predicting the same in the future (with ascendeds and future la femme's) and yet don't want to fix it why?

 

Like i said before there are other options then tearing it completely down, but there is a problem here, we need to fix it, so let's figure out a way to fix it. Yes there has been drama, but if it's also on the artists board (your words not mine). The only point of it is secrecy, and only a few things (holidays, certain artist aided events) need to be done in secret.

[skinst]

I never said once that the problems shouldn't be fixed. What I did say was is that artist, mods, what have you, have been working on correcting the problems that came about in the past. Why do you think this very thread came about, hmm?

 

Both the Easter and Halloween events went very smoothly, with little to no drama that I saw. Shouldn't that be a sign that the artists have been trying to lift their game a bit?

 

I, and probably most of the other in cave artists, want the secret section to remain, NOT so we can plot in secret, but so we can have fun with the privacy of one another and create pretty dragons for you guys. That is no different from having an invite only club or event in real life.

 

And also, the Easter and Halloween events had artists that were NOT in cave involved. They were invited to create a piece of art for the event. I wasn't in cave at Easter time, so I know that for a fact.

 

No one in here has given me, or any other artist, one good reason why the artist section should be shut down. The only thing I have got is suspicion on things that are blown out of proportion (seriously guys, you really think the artists have such a massive influence, do you? We don't. We just make pretty dragons and create event ideas) to plain old jealousy.

[Aviatus]

Alright, let me clarify a bit. The reason I say it doesn't seem you want to fix things is because it appears (correct me if I'm wrong) that you don't want anything changed. If so, that isn't fixing the problem, and you haven't offered any solutions as far as I have read, again that does little to fix the problem at hand. Secondly, I don't think you have a ton of influence, I know your role on the site isn't massive, but it is substantial, and above the influence of a non-cave-artist.

 

As for holiday releases there is a very good reason those go off much better than other secret releases, and that has to do with how the sprite is chosen. The way I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong this is a second hand account), multiple artists create holiday ideas and TJ chooses one right? This means he has a pool of selection from which to make (what he feels is) the best choice. As for the other sprites the pool isn't really a factor, instead it's many people focusing on one sprite or concept, and as the record shows, these secret releases have drawn a more than fair amount of criticism.

 

As for an invite only club or event, this is highly different, this is more like a committee, as you make decisions and create art that eventually influences the rest of us. Unfortunately it doesn't unction as a committee as its members are chosen by one person and the opinion of the masses are widely ignored since they aren't a factor anyway. If this section was effective, we wouldn't have all the drama we do every time a non-holiday secret project is unveiled.

 

As for reasons, I've given you plenty, and will bring up more as the discussion progresses.