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(For a while now, I've been mulling over character types, and thinking on what makes a Sue, among other things. So, for all your entertainment, here's my opinion. I'm not saying it's fact, I'm not saying you need to make it your standard, just putting it out there to maybe make you think a bit. Arguing about examples posted will be considered spam, so please, just keep it to yourself. One person's Sue can be another's well rounded character.

 

This is not going to be well organized or formal, this is just a bored amateur writer going on about what bugs her.)

 

What is a Mary Sue?

 

 

Well, that's the question, isn't it? To some, it's any insanely powerful character. To others, it means a character with no flaws. Still others may only apply it to out-of-the-ordinary types, like... say, chosen ones.

 

This thread will be dedicated not only to Mary Sue rants/ramblings, but characters in general. And maybe some random written carp from me.

 

All about cake.

Let me get this out of the way before anything else: No one trait will make a character a Sue. Extreme beauty? Not an insta-sue. Sings like an angel? A little pretentious, but still not a Sue. Many abilities, noble blood, hell, even a talking black wolf pup with blue eyes named Shadow for a pet doesn't instantly make a Sue.

 

A character is a great deal like a cake- no on thing makes a cake a cake, it's the sum of many ingredients, bake time, heat, and decorations. In the end, there are endless varieties. Same with characters- backgrounds, interests, abilities, flaws, physical attributes, mental state, and setting are all major factors in creating a well balanced, interesting character. And, like cake, a little too much or not enough of something can make them lopsided or otherwise not quite right.

 

Unlike cake, which is either edible or not and that's it, characters can be changed.

 

So, you can see how a Sue starts- too much, or too little, not enough to balance them out.

----------------------------------------------------------

 

Sometimes, the issues are glaringly obvious- the character is a perfect looking specimen of the human race, as well as being a genius, a fantastic singer, rich, able to do whatever they wish without fear of consequences... and this isn't even getting into their vast stores of magical ability! And all before they turn seventeen, isn't that amazing?

 

...

 

No. Not in the slightest. It's just annoying.

 

Sues can also be subtle- they're above average in looks. Pretty intelligent, anything less than an A is a rarity. Thanks to very well off parents and flawless behavior, they have money to burn. They've got tons of friends, perfect clothes, things like that. Their life is absolutely perfect, except for maybe one brooding secret that really doesn't matter.

 

This is just as annoying as the first example, since there is just no conflict- or, depending on their 'secret', it can become rather narmy, or downright offensive (looking at you, rape backstories.)

 

A Mary Sue is the compilation of many traits, and comes about from these traits either being handled poorly, or just simply not being thought out enough. The concentration of these traits make the various types of Sues- Purity Sues, Classic, Anti-Sues (This is NOT a compliment, anti-sues are just as bad), God Mode, Black Hole, whatever.

---------

 

How do you stop from making a Sue, then? It's really very easy- balance, thought and research. Make those your bestest friends, and you've got the main tools you need to keep from making a Sue, or otherwise extremely poor character.

 

There really is no such thing as over thinking a character, so always question how x trait will affect them. Extreme beauty, for one- how does this work for them? Do they work at it, or is it natural? Either way, how does it shape people's opinions of them? Do people think of this character as another brainless beauty, someone in constant need of help, some prize to be won? Even if they have admirers giving them whatever they want, think of what this could do to their self worth. It can give an inflated ego, or make them painfully insecure in how useful they really are.

 

Also think about setting before giving powers/appearance/whatever. No matter what you're doing, be it role playing, writing for an audience (face it: if you show your writing to strangers, EXPECT THEM TO GIVE FEEDBACK. If you write 'for yourself', then don't publish it. Don't put it on forums. Write it on paper, or save it on Word or something.), or anything else involving character creation, ALWAYS keep in mind the setting.

 

A medieval setting will not encourage flawless skin and hair unless you are royalty, and even then, it's still fairly poor by modern standards.

An institution-like setting (lab, hospital, some torture place) will not give you free reign on clothing, so leave the chains and hair gel at Hot Topic, you WILL have to stick to a uniform of sorts.

If you're writing fan-fiction, this is even more important- you don't have the luxury of making up your own rules (and if you want to- just go the extra mile and do original fiction), you need to apply to what is in the setting. This is just a major issue I have, why screw with canon when you can just do your own thing?

 

Continuing with consequences... what about half-human hybrids? Dragon people, bird kids? Sure, it's fun and to slap on a pair of wings for the sake of something interesting, but there will be consequences. Furniture of all sorts will not be forgiving, cramped places (trains, cars, even some house rooms) will be harder to work with, and then there's the strain of two extra limbs on one's body. I'm not saying you need to be an expert on flight mechanics and wings and all, just have some common sense!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Speaking of common sense... use it. For the love of all things holy, use it. ALL THE TIME.

 

Does your character really need so many powers? Or fluffy exotic animal friends? Do they really need a traumatic backstory? Sure, it's all cool and stuff, but what does it add to the character, aside from distracting from the fact that they have little personality?

 

This is another issue of mine- characters with a lot of fluff, but no substance. These characters are not like cake, they're more like cotton candy- fun, fluffy, but utterly lacking in any real value and will make your teeth hurt sooner or later.

 

Really think about what they're like, both in the public eye and alone. For yet another demonstration, I'll use my most recent work- Adrian Shepard, my character for the game Mass Effect.

 

In public, she goes out of her way to play the good girl. Helps out anyone who needs it, and asks no reward. She's not perfect, but to the public eye, it's clear she does her absolute best, and would never leave any man or woman behind, no matter their species. However, very few of these acts are genuinely from the goodness of her heart- she knows a good reputation will earn rewards down the line, and a good record never can hurt.

 

To her crew... she's friendly, and again, will do anything to help them. Unlike actions to the general public, this is entirely genuine, as she does regularly grow close to any crew she has. And if helping them involves getting her hands dirty... well, here's point three.

 

Off the record, out of the public eye, she does whatever it takes. Sometimes it still involves playing nice, sometimes it involves blackmail, sometimes it involves blatant lying. Sometimes murder.

 

So, you can see how 'good' people can be rotten censorkip.gif when on their own. Or other way 'round. Maybe they ARE genuinely good, but this gets them into trouble for being a bit naive. Again, this is all just dependent on basic common sense, so just... just use it. Don't think that you can act like an alot.png 's backside and still have people adore you.

 

Just give balance.

--------------------------------------------

 

So yeah. This was my unorganized little rant on characters, hope you found it interesting.

 

This thread is also for various writings, mostly DC fanfiction relating to dragons on my scroll. In some cases, there will be a visual header to show who it's focused on, but they were all requests from various artists who were kind enough <3 (Artists so far are Roon *Askelladden, the Black Marrow*, Tsukoyami *Evergreen Ivy, the Snow Angel*, Kukilunestar *GLaDOS, the Stripe; Dark Samus, the female Nebula; and The Lady Paine, the female Vampire*, and cudo215 (Chell the Magi).

 

Comments on the art should be directed to their threads *I shall edit the names to include links soon*, but if you like the writing, that's all me xd.png

Edited by Dr. Paine

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Ah, the Sue. A character which is the bane of many people's existence.

 

For me, its character with no flaws, or incredibly minor ones. She/He can be super-intelligent, or beautiful, or have magic beyond everyone else. If the character is perfect, they can be boring to read, and just unbelievable.

 

That being said, a sue doesn't instantly make the story bad. Tamora Peirce is a writer who can have very Mary-Sue-ish characters (Take Alanna; powerful mage, first female knight, unusual but beautiful appearence, boys tripping after her) but her story is still enjoyable. While Alanna may be over-powered, she has emotions, and faces trials which are difficult.

 

...okay, I realised that I'm rambling a bit, and my thought's aren't nearly as cohesive as Paine's. Basically, as a rule, a bad-Sue is a perfect, flat, boring character, where a Sue is just flawless.

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Ah, the Sue. A character which is the bane of many people's existence.

 

For me, its character with no flaws, or incredibly minor ones. She/He can be super-intelligent, or beautiful, or have magic beyond everyone else. If the character is perfect, they can be boring to read, and just unbelievable.

 

That being said, a sue doesn't instantly make the story bad. Tamora Peirce is a writer who can have very Mary-Sue-ish characters (Take Alanna; powerful mage, first female knight, unusual but beautiful appearence, boys tripping after her) but her story is still enjoyable. While Alanna may be over-powered, she has emotions, and faces trials which are difficult.

 

...okay, I realised that I'm rambling a bit, and my thought's aren't nearly as cohesive as Paine's. Basically, as a rule, a bad-Sue is a perfect, flat, boring character, where a Sue is just flawless.

Oh yes- Sues can work if done right. As I said, it's a matter of what goes into the character that determines if they're really one or not.

 

But then again, I don't consider a character that works a Sue wink.gif

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Oh yes- Sues can work if done right. As I said, it's a matter of what goes into the character that determines if they're really one or not.

 

But then again, I don't consider a character that works a Sue wink.gif

Ah, well, that's the difference. For me, a Sue isn't necessarily a bad character (in the same way that a bad character isn't necessarily a Sue). I mean, a lot of very popular characters from good books/plays/movies are Sues, but they're still great fun.

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Oh, nice topic.

 

Especially now that I've been overthinking my characters and asking so many questions about whether this or that doesn't make them Sue-ish? I'm not intending to write a novel but I think that even a story told mostly in pictures should have moderately well-developed characters behind it, doesn't it?

 

I have an issue already with characters who are oh-so-excellent in several skills. I'd rather go with the you-pay-with-something-else-to-excel-in-this, that extra superspechul skills come at a price of, say, health issues? Social ineptness due to the brain being oriented on other things? Beauty coupled with the paranoia that noone sees behind your looks and that every skill you possess is doubted because of how pretty you are(think Emilie Autumn's "Thank God I'm Pretty XD)?

 

As said in the OP, research is good. As well as common sense.

Edited by lightbird

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Don't forget the anti-marysues. They can be as bad as the Mary-Sues.

Basically, they are those who are too flawed, too angsty, and generally loners.

While it's ok to have an angsty loner, they have to have some reedeming qualities.

 

Basically, don't make characters too far to either side. Now if you made a character completely in the middle, they become boring. You don't want a character where you're reading it and everything about them makes you go "meh". You want a character that has both perfections and flaws. Personally, I like to have both in personality and in appearance.

 

For instance, I enjoy writing characters which would be very attractive, but have physical flaws, such as being horribly scarred to the point that it detracts from your character's appearance, (I usually have this covered up by armor or made less noticeable through a quest or by the end of the story).

One thing to definitely avoid would be to simply be unrealistic in the character's armament. If you're a 14 year old 90 pound girl you should not be wearing heavy armor and wielding a battleaxe the size of a nuclear submarine - You're doing it wrong.

Your character cannot be a 6'10" armored behemoth wielding a nuclear-submarine sized battleaxe and be able to dodge an arrow or anything to that effect. Make your character realistic within the bounds of the story. Now if the story is that you're all super-human behemoths with superhuman abilities and steel for gonads then fine, but even then, you must remain within the limits.

Personality wise, I like to make a very noble character who is constantly fighting his dark side, and perhaps losing that fight. Or a perfectly reasonable and intelligent character who has gone mad from too much research into the forbidden arcane. Or something. Either one of those by themselves results (more often than not) in a marysue or anti-marysue, but together they balance, and make a much more realistic and reasonable character.

 

EDIT 2: Although it is possible to have made a character that is a perfectly good character, but appear to be a mary-sue. I've had instances where I've been accused of the mary-sueism, but they neglect the fact that I absolutely HATE to smack people in the face with everything about my character. I love to reveal bits and pieces of the RP, instead of just making a list for the character sheet. And a perfectly good character may get rejected because of that fact that it's not always easy to show that a character has flaws without revealing too much. For instance, my character may be a perfectly handsome well groomed noble, but, to be revealed later, he's actually a murderous psychopath with tendencies to spontaneously grow body-hair and visualize everyone as undead zombie-bears. But I'll be damned if I'm going to say that in the introductory paragraph.

Edited by Nerendier

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Don't forget the anti-marysues. They can be as bad as the Mary-Sues.

Basically, they are those who are too flawed, too angsty, and generally loners.

While it's ok to have an angsty loner, they have to have some reedeming qualities.

 

Basically, don't make characters too far to either side. Now if you made a character completely in the middle, they become boring. You don't want a character where you're reading it and everything about them makes you go "meh". You want a character that has both perfections and flaws. Personally, I like to have both in personality and in appearance.

 

For instance, I enjoy writing characters which would be very attractive, but have physical flaws, such as being horribly scarred to the point that it detracts from your character's appearance, (I usually have this covered up by armor or made less noticeable through a quest or by the end of the story).

One thing to definitely avoid would be to simply be unrealistic in the character's armament. If you're a 14 year old 90 pound girl you should not be wearing heavy armor and wielding a battleaxe the size of a nuclear submarine - You're doing it wrong.

Your character cannot be a 6'10" armored behemoth wielding a nuclear-submarine sized battleaxe and be able to dodge an arrow or anything to that effect. Make your character realistic within the bounds of the story. Now if the story is that you're all super-human behemoths with superhuman abilities and steel for gonads then fine, but even then, you must remain within the limits.

Personality wise, I like to make a very noble character who is constantly fighting his dark side, and perhaps losing that fight. Or a perfectly reasonable and intelligent character who has gone mad from too much research into the forbidden arcane. Or something. Either one of those by themselves results (more often than not) in a marysue or anti-marysue, but together they balance, and make a much more realistic and reasonable character.

 

EDIT 2: Although it is possible to have made a character that is a perfectly good character, but appear to be a mary-sue. I've had instances where I've been accused of the mary-sueism, but they neglect the fact that I absolutely HATE to smack people in the face with everything about my character. I love to reveal bits and pieces of the RP, instead of just making a list for the character sheet. And a perfectly good character may get rejected because of that fact that it's not always easy to show that a character has flaws without revealing too much. For instance, my character may be a perfectly handsome well groomed noble, but, to be revealed later, he's actually a murderous psychopath with tendencies to spontaneously grow body-hair and visualize everyone as undead zombie-bears. But I'll be damned if I'm going to say that in the introductory paragraph.

I didn't forget the anti-sues wink.gif

 

Also, I'm thinking of (yet again) reviving a story based on a few of my dragons. Most likely, they'll be GLaDOS, Dark Samus, The Lady Paine, and Self Esteem Fund. Among others. My Christmas dragons will also probably be involved.

 

... I might need to do some name changes xd.png Anyway, good idea or no?

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I didn't forget the anti-sues wink.gif

 

Also, I'm thinking of (yet again) reviving a story based on a few of my dragons. Most likely, they'll be GLaDOS, Dark Samus, The Lady Paine, and Self Esteem Fund. Among others. My Christmas dragons will also probably be involved.

 

... I might need to do some name changes xd.png Anyway, good idea or no?

You're asking the wrong guy. I avoid dragon-based RPs like the plague.

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For giggles, I am writing something entirely in uber-purple prose/wolfspeak.

 

If you can decipher it... well, good for you.

 

And no, you won't get any hints. Not even to the creature being written about. Nor do I condone actually writing like this- I'm just doing it cause I's bored biggrin.gif

 

Fun facts: On the site I Write Like, the following paragraphs are like Dan Brown. My rant at the top got H.P. Lovecraft.

------------------------------------------------

 

Perfectly sculpted leaves wafted back and forth 'pon chestnut crown, every solitary sound t'win the perfumed breaths of beauteous Nature herself. Daggers tore at the emerald blades thrust from the grand mantle, great marble pillars pounding up and down, driving the grand vixen over the endless, eternal Gaia.

 

Soon the pistons slowed, light sparkling on amber flanks, as sapphire lights gazed over the terra. The fea slowly dipped her dial to the ground, pearls slowly crushing blades of jade that melted into a sweetness like flowers. Her flag waved slowly in the gusts, while her ever alert auds scanned the air for a song from her kin.

 

Diamonds trailed down her crainia, for there was only the velvety softness of silence to greet her. Her kin, her mates, her beloved band had all passed to the hereafter, taken by the storms of gold and crimson that ravaged her forest home so many cycles ago.

 

The femme let out a cry of anguish and pain, stabbing obsidian daggers to the endless blue above, as if to tear the very heavens down and make it return what she had lost. But, as Alyssia the Chestnut knew, that could never be.

 

As the heavens darkened and their many eyes peeked open, the milky light of the grand moon shone upon her back, the only one to watch the lonesome femmora as she tried to find a new land to call home.

 

... OW OW OW OW THAT HURT.

 

Next up: ... SOMETHING! biggrin.gif Possibly some work on my Mass Effect character.

 

Edited because I forgot her backstory. DUH.

Edited by Dr. Paine

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Yeah. I read Gawain and the Green Knight in latin, having had no previous experience with the language, for class. Your writing is easily legible, dear Paine. Over the top with the fancy words for things that could be said simply, but still easy to read and follow 8D

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Yeah. I read Gawain and the Green Knight in latin, having had no previous experience with the language, for class. Your writing is easily legible, dear Paine. Over the top with the fancy words for things that could be said simply, but still easy to read and follow 8D

So then what's it about? >D

 

I never took Latin or read much 'classic' literature (the most I did was attempt Romeo and Juliet... didn't end well), but I spent three or four years among the Neopets roleplay boards xd.png

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well "auds" isn't a word and so I dunno what that's about, but basically, the first paragraph describes a scenery - some kind of natural landscape, with trees and grass. I'm assuming the vixen bit describes the character herself?

 

Anyways, she listens for, or reminiscences about her family/species and cries out in sadness because she doesn't hear them, it was light when this happens but then the sky turns dark and it's nighttime and she's apparently traveling someplace trying to find a new home.

 

I pretty much live and breathe classic literature as an English major u__u I don't necessarily like it, I'm more of a fantasy person and fantasy is NEVER classical because stuck up pricks control the canon system. :P

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well "auds" isn't a word and so I dunno what that's about, but basically, the first paragraph describes a scenery - some kind of natural landscape, with trees and grass. I'm assuming the vixen bit describes the character herself?

 

Anyways, she listens for, or reminiscences about her family/species and cries out in sadness because she doesn't hear them, it was light when this happens but then the sky turns dark and it's nighttime and she's apparently traveling someplace trying to find a new home.

 

I pretty much live and breathe classic literature as an English major u__u I don't necessarily like it, I'm more of a fantasy person and fantasy is NEVER classical because stuck up pricks control the canon system. tongue.gif

Heh x3 Can you tell what the character is, though? >D

 

You're only about half right, though. There wasn't much setting described, and her family was killed of. osotargic.

Edited by Dr. Paine

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what's osotargic? o-o

 

And no XD I tried to find definitions for aud and crainia to give me a clue but they're not words, yo D:

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what's osotargic? o-o

 

And no xd.png I tried to find definitions for aud and crainia to give me a clue but they're not words, yo D:

'oh so tragic' xd.png

 

And it's a horse.

 

I used the damn best wolfspeak I could. Small dictionary is here.

 

Specifics for 'horse'speak include 'daggers' for hooves, otherwise you should get it.

Edited by Dr. Paine

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oooooh. See I had no idea what wolf speak or horse speak is .__.

 

I did not even know that existed.

Like I said, several years among Neopets roleplayers.

 

Luckily, I was rescued by snarkers before I became a wolfspeaker biggrin.gif

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.... *has to look up snarker

XD well I am glad you were rescued. I have to say it sounds to me just as bad as those who watch Anime and start speaking random bits of Japanese in their conversations. They're like, the same species of people.

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Once, long ago, I wrote a parody of Still Alive to fit DC. I have since lost it.

 

Here is the replacement. Yes, I fail at rhyming and such, this is entirely for fun xd.png

 

This was a failure.

I am making a note here: Lost the egg.

It's hard to understate my sheer annoyance.

TJ, our admin-

he does the best that he can.

For the good of all of us,

except the ones who complain.

 

But there's no sense crying over every missed egg,

you just keep on trying 'till your eyes have gone red

There are dragons to be caught

and newbies to be taught

in the wonderful Dragon Cave!

 

I'm not all that angry.

I'm being so sincere right now.

Even though you stole that split away from me.

And killed it with a vampire.

And threw the eggshells into a bin.

But as I know, it hurt because

I was so happy for you.

 

Now these mass releases make a beautiful flood,

they're out of beta and crash the site with a thud

But I've got Flamingos to breed,

and I need a leetle tree seed

on the wonderful Dragon Cave!

 

Go ahead and leave me.

I'll just be on the front page.

Maybe there's a cheese I could grab.

Or maybe get a Neglected!

That was a joke, haha, fat chance.

Anyway, the drop's at eight,

maybe I'll get that split!

 

Look at me still talking when there's eggs to grab,

When I look at my scroll, it no longer makes me sad!

I've got Spitfires to name,

hopefully something that's not lame,

on the wonderful Dragon Cave!

 

And believe me, I love Dragon Cave!

I'm doing just fine, in Dragon Cave!

Why are there dinos in Dragon Cave?

And there are chickens in Dragon Cave!

I'm loosing sleep to Dragon Cave!

But it's okay, because it's Dragon Cave!

 

Dragon Cave

Where's that split?

Edited by Dr. Paine

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xd.png

You have won my loyalty and fandomness. No, seriously. I'm a fan of yours. I applaud heartily with your rendition of Still Alive. I think I'll start singing it like that sometime.

 

Ooh....I've also drawn something that I think you might like. I drew it before I was told that you loved Portal. xd.png

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xd.png

You have won my loyalty and fandomness. No, seriously. I'm a fan of yours. I applaud heartily with your rendition of Still Alive. I think I'll start singing it like that sometime.

 

Ooh....I've also drawn something that I think you might like. I drew it before I was told that you loved Portal. xd.png

Ooooh, that is cool ._. And lulz at Rhea's comment xd.png

 

But yeah, 'interested in Portal' is putting it mildly xd.png I actually got a contributor position with one of dA's major Valve fanclubs simply because I kept them so up-to-date on Portal 2, I was following it that close. (And the game releases three days after my birthday ohgodohgodohgodIcannotwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait....)

 

-cough- Anyway, cool cores biggrin.gif

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Oh yes, I love that. I love that poem/song very much (I'm saying two things because it can be used as both). I will be stalking this topic, Dr. Paine. You have won my fandom.

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Ah, the Sues..... I find that they stem from various anime shows that I used to watch when I was younger. Sailor Moon? One of the first, she was nice. Cardcaptor Sakura? How could you not love her? She's friggin adorable....but then, the rest, the posers of the originals.

 

Almost all young shoujo anime girls are Maty Sues. They're either very strong or are able to fix everything by just giving speeches, and are adorably ditsy, and tend to fall down stairs often without even hurting themselves, have multiple guys to choose from usually a popular guy who she thinks is out of her range, or the anit-social guy she wins over with her love, at least one parent is dead or missing, and have a talking animal plush that guides her, has a magical item, and transforms through a very long, and glittery transformation in which she magically changes outfits and gains powers.

 

 

Some Examples:

Kami Chama Karin, she becomes a "goddess" through the help of her magical ring that her dead father gave her as a keepsake. Checklist please! Befriends anti-social guy? check. Magic? check. Fluffy?check. Adorably ditsy? check, karin

 

 

Ah, I remember another one,

 

Jewel Pets, yeah, that's what it's called. I'll talk about season two.

 

A girl is lonely, because her sister is a famous supermodel and everyone loves her, but not poor main character, so, one day a talking rabbit comes up to her, transports her to a magical world, and she learns how to use magic! Ohhh! and than, she decides that she loves a boy who is super popular (surprise surprise!) and then she gets a magical outfit that makes her powers stronger, and with the help of friendship, she over comes anything! YAY

The bunnies love her

 

 

Amu, from Shugo Chara:

 

A lonely girl finds three eggs in her bed, and they hatch into MINI PEOPLE who then transform her so she can become her true self, she uses long, boring speeches to win her enemies hearts over, she has two guys to choose from, the anti-social one who is 8 years older than her, or the popular one.

The many faces of a conflicted tween

 

Last One, and by far, one of the worst that I can think of right now.

 

Yumeiro Patisserie...

 

A young girl wants to bake SWEETS so that she can honor her dead grandmother, because she feels sad inside because of the fact that her sister plays piano better than her, so she magically gets into a super amazing sweets school, and doesn't know how to cook, than a fairy, comes to her and becomes her best fries, she has three guys to choose from, who all become her friend somehow, and she decides that she will bake sweets. And has adventures, and make long speeches about love.

Aww, frolicking in a meadow

 

 

but... I can't make fun of Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha, I grew up watching her, same with all the classics.

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