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The only thing that I will say is that I have been told some rather disgusting things about the meat that we eat that I will not repeat.

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Chickens aren't stupid, you're just uneducated/unaware of their behaviors and mistakenly classify them as "stupid" based on comparisons to... what, mammals?

 

Chickens eat their own eggs as a source of calcium, which they go through in HUGE amounts due to their unnatural amounts of egg laying. If they're not getting adequate calcium, their bodies will take it from their bones and they will eventually succumb to painful, brittle bones and death. They beat up on injured birds because in the wild, an ill or weak member would bring devastation to the whole flock. Unfortunately, in captivity there are very few means of an ill animal becoming "exiled"; they're surrounded by fences and are dependent on humans. That's why it's important to separate birds who are being picked on immediately until they get better/heal. They run from people because humans are capable of killing them with a single kick and they've been given reason to not trust you.

 

I dislike the attitude that it's okay to eat some animals but not others based on how "cute" they are or how one perceives their intelligence. I'm fine with people eating dogs and cats as long as they're cared for and slaughtered humanely, though I wouldn't eat it myself. I find that kind of superiority damaging to both public perception of animal species and the humane treatment of said animals. Puppy mills are hated by the public for the conditions animals are kept in, yet it's somehow okay for the same to be done to pigs and chickens. I'm for equal treatment, don't care how far separated they are on an evolutionary scale. They all bleed, feel pain, and suffer.

 

That said, I totally support hunting and eating wild boars especially-- those guys can be absolute monsters to environments. Not their fault, of course, but if they can be controlled as well as providing delicious food then it's a win-win =)

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Equal treatment is nice so long as it's not the same treatment. I understand that chickens naturally, when given the choice, live all smooshed together, so even though dogs and cats and cows wouldn't like such close quarters, it would be cruel to give chickens too much room.

 

Anyhow, the described behavior doesn't sound stupid to me, it sounds...avian. Chickens are birds. They aren't long-lived birds, so they aren't going to be as smart as parrots, but they aren't stupid. Running away from humans isn't stupid!

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I don't object to eating meat as long as a. The animal was humanely killed b. It had a good life i.e. enough room, healthy food and exercise and c. Wasn't endangered or or sth. That said, I do mean ANY animal, barring humans.

Edited by ylangylang

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Equal treatment is nice so long as it's not the same treatment.  I understand that chickens naturally, when given the choice, live all smooshed together, so even though dogs and cats and cows wouldn't like such close quarters, it would be cruel to give chickens too much room.

Lol, that gave me the image of a miniature chicken-stable with tiny compartments for individual birds. But I agree about the treatment thing, though many chicken breeds do thrive in wide open areas (with adequate shelter of course, they know very well how easy it is for a hawk to pick em off). It's definitely an issue of balance-- enough space to run around, but not too much to make them feel vulnerable and exposed.

 

And I agree with the above ^, though I do have the added condition of no "destruction to the environment while harvesting." Fish trawling is so incredibly destructive, but you wouldn't ever guess it from eating seafood. Perhaps that's a topic for another time though =P

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And I agree with the above ^, though I do have the added condition of no "destruction to the environment while harvesting." Fish trawling is so incredibly destructive, but you wouldn't ever guess it from eating seafood. Perhaps that's a topic for another time though =P

oh yes, you wouldn't believe how much filth factory style chicken coops churn out, including the antibiotics running into the ground undernrath...

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Chickens aren't stupid, you're just uneducated/unaware of their behaviors and mistakenly classify them as "stupid" based on comparisons to... what, mammals?

They're not the brighest compared to other birds. I've saved robins I consider more intelligent than them and most of the other avians I've encountered seem that way, too.

 

I think the more intelligent an animal is, the less suitable it is as a dinner item. I love plenty of animals that aren't on the sharper side of the mental spectrum--I'm a very fond admirer and owner of herps, and am quite attached to my pet fish--but when it comes down to it seeing, say, a dead frog in the pond bothers me a lot less than it would seeing a dead cat or whatever.

 

I wouldn't consider what chickens do as intelligent. Does it work for them survival-wise? Sure... but all animals are good at surviving. Doesn't mean they're displaying much intelligence, though.

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I got the opportunity to try guinea pig over Spring Break in rural Ecuador. Part of this opportunity was to see the whole process of it. We bought one at a market (I got lots of stares and giggles), watched it be killed and prepared, and tried some. It was very interesting to see (not to mention surprisingly delicious), but I don't have any second thoughts about meat, nor did I find it "gross" or "sad". It was an amazing cultural experience for me, and something that we should respect.

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I think the more intelligent an animal is, the less suitable it is as a dinner item. I love plenty of animals that aren't on the sharper side of the mental spectrum--I'm a very fond admirer and owner of herps, and am quite attached to my pet fish--but when it comes down to it seeing, say, a dead frog in the pond bothers me a lot less than it would seeing a dead cat or whatever.

We shouldn't eat pigs, then. Pigs, although lots of people think otherwise, are pretty smart, almost as smart as chimpanzees or dolphins.

 

Source:

http://chris-mclaughlin.suite101.com/the-i...gent-pig-a84448

 

Pigs lead complex social lives that behaviorists once believed to be true only of primates.

  Mother pigs sing to their piglets while they are nursing.

  They excel at video games that would be hard for a young child, and sometimes better than the primates.

  Pigs dream.

  Pigs have a good sense of direction, and can find their way home from long distances.

  They learn from watching one another.

  Pigs outsmart each other. One will often follow another pig to food before grabbing it away from him, and the pig who was tricked will change behaviors to reduce how many times it is tricked.

 

However, we still eat them, so.. tongue.gif

 

I think it just comes down to what foods we're used to eating. Any aversion to other types of food comes because we've been taught that it shouldn't be used as food. It's also why certain types of sea creatures and animal intestines aren't eaten in some cultures but is relished in others.

Edited by ylangylang

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If I had to hunt and clean up animals myself, I'm not sure how much meat I'd eat. I'm not even fond of cleaning fish. But when (meat) is tastily prepared, IE barbecue...

 

/nummy!

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They're not the brighest compared to other birds. I've saved robins I consider more intelligent than them and most of the other avians I've encountered seem that way, too.

 

I think the more intelligent an animal is, the less suitable it is as a dinner item. I love plenty of animals that aren't on the sharper side of the mental spectrum--I'm a very fond admirer and owner of herps, and am quite attached to my pet fish--but when it comes down to it seeing, say, a dead frog in the pond bothers me a lot less than it would seeing a dead cat or whatever.

 

I wouldn't consider what chickens do as intelligent. Does it work for them survival-wise? Sure... but all animals are good at surviving. Doesn't mean they're displaying much intelligence, though.

I'm not sure what your measurements are for "intelligence", but I somehow do not believe they have any play on how intelligent an animal actually is. Perhaps because you seem so determined to view chickens as "stupid", your mind has a predisposition to it and finds it difficult to see it any other way. I've met stupid humans, dogs, and cats but I certainly do not see them more fit for consumption than another of their species. Who am I to say those individuals are "stupid" to begin with? Because I can come to conclusions based entirely on assumptions? Because my definition of "intelligence" is infallible?

 

Well, I think it's easy to see that your methods of determining 'intelligence' and worth are-- for the most part-- based entirely on opinion and personal preference and very little to do with behavior, nature, or other characteristics. A learned way of thinking like was mentioned above, yes. Of course there is nothing wrong with thinking that way; it's misguided at best, erroneous at worst, but it's still just an opinion. However, I can't help but feel disappointed since a large portion of modern society tends to think in the same way, and it makes any sort of progression regarding animal rights, scientific studies, and environmental work much more difficult.

 

By the by, I've seen chickens who knew how to open fridges to get at chilled fruit, individuals who would work together to distract a cat from its foodbowl, then take turns stealing bites, and birds who would come by name. I find them horrendously intelligent despite their radical history of domestication.

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By the by, I've seen chickens who knew how to open fridges to get at chilled fruit, individuals who would work together to distract a cat from its foodbowl, then take turns stealing bites, and birds who would come by name. I find them horrendously intelligent despite their radical history of domestication.

That's pretty cool!

 

Though I will point out that domestication does not necessarily lower the intelligence of an animal. Dogs are as successful as they are because they are expert manipulators of humans. However they became domesticated (which scientists suspect was as much a matter of dogs glomming onto us as us picking out the dogs), it is to their benefit to be intelligent in different ways than wolves and coyotes are. Dogs are extremely successful in their environmental niche and part of that is because they can read and work humans so well, something which other canines cannot do. It takes some smarts to do that. Did you know that dogs can look at a human opening a door and map that action onto their own bodies to figure out how to open a door themselves without ever having tried it? From what I've read, wolves can't do that, mostly because wolves really don't have any need to.

 

It would not surprise me to learn that domestic chickens have a different intelligence than wild fowl which allows them to survive better in their niche, such as fooling cats and responding to names. I don't know if they do, but it wouldn't surprise me. Domestication doesn't 'dumb down' an animal, if it's successful, it shifts their intelligence to better match their new niche.

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Oh yeah, I wasn't intending to mean that domestication itself dumbs down intelligence. Rather, that we've manipulated the physical characteristics, egg cycles, etc. so radically over time, and yet we can't change their brains =o Even the physically crippled broiler hens still have it in them to run around, crow, sunbathe in the dirt, and act like a chicken. I'm sure factory pigs, cows, turkeys and all them are the same way too-- physically changed to benefit the meat industries, but still just as vibrant and alive mentally when given the chance. I guess that's one of the things that disturbs me greatly about factory farming, that each and every one of those animals has the capabilities of being just as smart, affectionate, and quick-witted as the ones I've known. But because they were bred for the table, it's easier for people to dehumanize (can't think of a better word) their mental capabilities and excuse their quality of life.

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I love meat and I will never stop eating meat. I love my hamburgers and fried chicken strips too much.

 

There are certain kinds of meat I will NOT eat, though, like veal and lamb. I don't approve of eating BABY animals. I also will not ever try and do not ever WANT to try buffalo meat. If I want a hamburger, I'll buy beef, but I don't think buffalo should be on my plate. >.>

 

I mostly eat poultry, because i just can't stomach too much red meat anymore; too much makes me feel sick. I've started eating more fish, poultry, and non-meat foods lately because of that, but I'll never be a vegetarian.

 

My family tries to buy more organic meats, too, because the animals are treated more humanely and are given a natural, hormone-and-antibiotic free diet. I don't like the way the animals are treated and the hormone- and antibiotic-laced meat that gets to the store is starting to cause problems in people; my family stopped buying regular milk and went to organic milk because the hormones in the milk were making my mom sick sometimes. And the meat from factory farms, poorly treated animals, antibiotic and hormone-riddled animals, and animals not fed a normal diet [for that animal] just plain doesn't taste very good.

 

Just tossing in my two cents. smile.gif

I know this quote was from the second page but I had to ask, Infinis where do you get this organic meat and what does it cost? Where is this magical safe orgainic meat?

 

My mom and I have stopped eating organic meat (and somewhat organic milk, though we do get one kind) because most organic farms don't vaccinate their animals, and some won't treat with antibiotics if sick because then supposedly the meat is no longer organic in their minds.

 

Though the USDA says you can give medicines for illness and vaccines I won't buy orgainc meat unless I know the farmer vaccinated their animals. I had problems with un-vaccinated chickens and cried my eyes out when both of my 4-H roosters died horrible deaths for something that couldn't have been treated but could have been prevented by the breeder.

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Maybe this makes me a bad vegetarian but, I actually support hunting (of things that aren't endangered) because if you can man up and kill it yourself, you DESERVE to eat it.

 

I'm not too keen on tofu myself, I only like it done some ways.

I also don't eat too much soya. I prefer quorn, myself.

 

one day in the future, the population will be so large that we'll run out of food and everyone will have to become vegetarian because they'll have to have huge structures to generate mycoprotein so everyone can eat. true story.

 

 

What's this 4-H thing of which you speak?

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I'm a vegetarian. I do not support the consumption of animals and probably never will. There is a place called Catskill Animal Sanctuary and I think a lot of people could go there and learn a lot about where meat comes from.

 

I understand people's point about how it's as bad to eat eggs and milk as it is to eat meat. I'm not a vegan but I am considering it. I don't drink milk because I'm lactose intolerant and I don't really like eggs. As for honey, I'm not really sure.

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I'm a vegetarian. I do not support the consumption of animals and probably never will. There is a place called Catskill Animal Sanctuary and I think a lot of people could go there and learn a lot about where meat comes from.

 

I understand people's point about how it's as bad to eat eggs and milk as it is to eat meat. I'm not a vegan but I am considering it. I don't drink milk because I'm lactose intolerant and I don't really like eggs. As for honey, I'm not really sure.

honey isn't really FROM the bee, in the sense that eggs are from chickens and milk is from cows, it's just bee vomit.

Edited by dracocharky

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There's nothing wrong with eating meat. You just have to do your best to assure it's raised in the most humane way possible. The way I figure is, if it's nicer than the sorts of deaths they'd meet in the wild, then it's A-Ok.

 

Chicken that lives its life running around on the grass and is then killed via a quick beheading > Chicken that lives its life running around on the grass and is then mangled and ripped apart by a fox (like ours were, stupid thing didn't even eat them after -____- ).

 

Chicken that lives its entire life in a cage and is killed via having its throat machine-slit < Chicken that lives its life running around on the grass and is then mangled and ripped apart by a fox.

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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I'm a vegetarian. I do not support the consumption of animals and probably never will. There is a place called Catskill Animal Sanctuary and I think a lot of people could go there and learn a lot about where meat comes from.

I, also, spent a lot of time around an animal rescue centre when I was a young teen. Be warned a lot of the information you get may be very, very biased. That doesn't mean the people there are not good people, it just means that if you truly want to form your own opinions you need to make some effort to see the other side of the story too.

 

Go to some agricultural shows, and try chatting to some of the farmers there. That'll also tell you an awful lot about where meat comes from.

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I love steak. It's a great luxury and I am in demand of it more often because my body has to grow. Problem? :3

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I'm a vegetarian. I do not support the consumption of animals and probably never will. There is a place called Catskill Animal Sanctuary and I think a lot of people could go there and learn a lot about where meat comes from.

 

I understand people's point about how it's as bad to eat eggs and milk as it is to eat meat. I'm not a vegan but I am considering it. I don't drink milk because I'm lactose intolerant and I don't really like eggs. As for honey, I'm not really sure.

I'm a chef. I know where meat comes from.

 

But I eat it because it's tasty and part of our natural diet. The trick is to be educated about where your meat comes from. Like buy organic when you can, or in the case of veal and lamb, make sure they come from farms where they're not mistreated.

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I think veganism is the abstinence of all animal by-product... Meaning that eating honey isn't acceptable, just as wearing wool and the like isn't.

 

To your earlier comment - 4-H is a program for children and teens, and I believe young adults, to become more aware of agriculture. You sign up for it, go to meetings, and sometimes they'll offer special extra-curricular activities to do on the side and at your own expense - such as raise your own chickens. I didn't join 4-H, so I really don't know how accurate my description of 4-H is. However, they did come to our 5th grade class and offered us fliers to get chicks to raise. I did it. Needless to say, the entire experience didn't last long. One or two died the first night we had them (which they said that might happen), and then a couple were killed by dogs when they grew up. After that, we had to get rid of them because they kept getting out (despite clipping their wings) and making messes everywhere. As well as terrorizing my 1st sibling at the time, and he was only a baby then, so my mother wouldn't tolerate it...

 

@ ylangylang - But, but, but... Bacon is so good!!! LOL.

but then you couldn't eat plants grown using manure, because manure is an animal by-product... I guess that's a very fine line. or a very broad one.

 

ah, I see. That's good enough for me, I just wanted a rough idea xd.png

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Maybe this makes me a bad vegetarian but, I actually support hunting (of things that aren't endangered) because if you can man up and kill it yourself, you DESERVE to eat it.

 

I'm not too keen on tofu myself, I only like it done some ways.

I also don't eat too much soya. I prefer quorn, myself.

 

one day in the future, the population will be so large that we'll run out of food and everyone will have to become vegetarian because they'll have to have huge structures to generate mycoprotein so everyone can eat. true story.

 

 

What's this 4-H thing of which you speak?

4-H is an agriculturally based program for kids to raise animals and either sell them for meat (profiting at the end of fair) or exploring other by products (taking a dairy cow or laying or fancy chickens geese and turkey).

 

4-H isn't just agriculture though, there are plenty of other projects too.

 

The enitire time I was in it I took 3 different horse projects, breeding rabbits, fancy chickens, creative writing, beekeeping, archery, riflery, exploring the outdoors, and dog obedience.

 

The program is an American program though and though availble in other other places some counties/states have had to cut it due to the economy.

 

The animals raised by 4-H-ers tend to be the happiest I've ever seen. At my fair the horses are bathed and shown, the cows all get lined up and get to eat hay all day, and are able to stand or sit at their own accord. Pigs are buddied up to help deal with the extra stress of the fair. The lambs baa at the visitors or when getting bathed or clipped but other wise enjoy themselves. The goats are curious and try to escape. Rabbits get to spend time around other rabbits and the roosters crow to their hearts content.

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Maybe this makes me a bad vegetarian but,

People are vegetarian for all sorts of reasons. Just because you have beliefs from some other vegetarians doesn't make you a bad vegetarian. :3

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I personally love meat, I eat it with no regrets, especially bacon, I mean come on, anybody that likes meat has to like bacon! I also love chicken, and burgers, my dad has a grill and a smoker, so when I'm at his house on the weekends there is always good tasting food, but this doesn't mean I don't like vegetables, I love green beans and rice, especially rice, I know this really doesn't count but I do drink a lot of V8, so that's a very small amount of vegetables, I also really like fruit, especially oranges and apple I used to want to try every flavor of apples but after playing fruit ninja and learning just how many kinds of apples there are I crossed that off of my imaginary bukket list I think up whenever I feel like it

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