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MURDERcomplexx

Marriage Equality and Other MOGAI/Queer Rights

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I'd like to see some verses please.

 

If you meant me: Matthew 22:37.

 

 

 

Also, all those books of the law were written by one person.

 

Again, if you were responding to what I said about Paul and his opinions: The laws in the OT, including Leviticus and Deuteronomy, grew over time, I think. They weren't written by one person, unless he were an extremely disturbed and confused individual.

 

Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.

 

And again, I say unto you, that in that case, you must not eat pork or wear two fabrics together, and you must keep slaves and stone your daughter if she loses her virginity before marriage, and a whole lot of other things you probably don't even think about. But those arcane laws don't apply to you, only to Gays and Lesbians. Because we live in the 21st century, but they live back in Biblical times. Right?

 

ETA: Sorry, Odeen, I wasn't addressing you here, but the people who follow those passages. I just realized it looked like I was arguing with you. Sorry. :-)

Edited by Jennie

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Nope, they were all written by Moses.

 

Again, I've never actually quoted Leviticus or Deuteronomy. You keep trying to trap me into a situation where I contradict myself.

Edited by MasterWeavile898

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Nope, they were all written by Moses.

 

Okay, but he was suffering from PST after being abandoned by his mother and set adrift on the river in a basket. So yeah, he was a seriously disturbed and confused individual.

 

You keep trying to trap me into a situation where I contradict myself.

 

 

I'm not trying to trap anyone into anything. What good would that do? I'm trying to point out how illogical it is to state that anyone could believe and follow everything that's written in the Bible. And I'm also trying to point out that if someone says such a thing in reference to Gays and Lesbians, when it is impossible for them to believe and follow everything in the Bible themselves, that they are being unjust. That's not some kind of tricky sophistry, it's just the truth.

Edited by Jennie

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Nope, they were all written by Moses.

 

Again, I've never actually quoted Leviticus or Deuteronomy. You keep trying to trap me into a situation where I contradict myself.

As you discard everything else that was said in their rebuttal...

 

EDIT: You didn't quote any of it but you were asked questions and responded to them. Some of those answers were not very nice. The reason we're able to trap you into these contradictions (and so quickly!) is because your current line of reasoning is flawed.

Edited by Lythiaren

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Sorry it's one in the morning here, I'm losing steam quickly. My posts will probably not be more than a sentence or two until I get some sleep.

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Nope, they were all written by Moses.

The sources of the biblical accounts have been thoroughly studied: literary styles analyzed, edits made between drafts and between versions, etc etc. Biblical scholars do not rightly know the identities of the authors of any of the stories related to the life of Moses. Strangely, they do agree that they were not written by Moses at all, or even within lifetime of his supposed deeds having supposedly occurred. There are several authors, and the stories have been edited via sloppy translation and deliberate political spin in and after the First Council of Nicaea.

 

If Moses did, in fact, exist, which is entirely unclear, he did not contribute to the writing of the bible.

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I don't think the government should be part of it, but it's far too late for that. And I don't agree with it. But it's within people's rights, so I will always tolerate it.

Why should the government not be involved in something that is a governmental affair? Y'know, with things like how taxes are filed and all kinds of LEGAL benefits? The government grants all kinds of LEGAL benefits to married couples. If you think the government should 100% stay out of marriage, then all HETEROSEXUAL couples will be losing a TON of benefits and tax-related stuff. Since that comes from the LEGAL institution of marriage, NOT from holy matrimony (or other religious ceremonies for other religions).

 

Is that what you're saying?

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This might sound a bit insensitve, but why are we worrying about gay rights when our education system is messed up, our healthcare is going down hill, our economy is is in the toilet, our daycare system in rotten to the core, our orphanage system, large scale pollution and other such things. Why are we worrying about a moral dilemma that will never be solved rather than issues in our systems that can be solved. Someone please explain that logic to me.

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This might sound a bit insensitve, but why are we worrying about gay rights when our education system is messed up, our healthcare is going down hill, our economy is is in the toilet, our daycare system in rotten to the core, our orphanage system, large scale pollution and other such things. Why are we worrying about a moral dilemma that will never be solved rather than issues in our systems that can be solved. Someone please explain that logic to me.

It's not like we're NOT worrying about that, you know. o.o There are tons of discussion threads in this category, you know, and these things are also constantly being discussed elsewhere, off of the internet. It doesn't make any one of them any less important than the other, especially when it comes to this topic, which to you it may seem like just something about "gay rights," but to me it's addressing something a bit deeper than that - and that's equal freedom.

 

Just saying.

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This might sound a bit insensitve, but why are we worrying about gay rights when our education system is messed up, our healthcare is going down hill, our economy is is in the toilet, our daycare system in rotten to the core, our orphanage system, large scale pollution and other such things. Why are we worrying about a moral dilemma that will never be solved rather than issues in our systems that can be solved. Someone please explain that logic to me.

Because other things needing fixing is not a valid excuse for ignoring something that needs to be fixed. Human rights is not simply a private moral dilemma - it is a rather large elephant that has far-reaching implications for so simple an issue (and yes, it's ridiculously simple. ) and it can and should be addressed now.

 

And the best part about working in a collective society is we CAN tackle multiple issues at once by working together.

 

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Yes but unless everyone just randomly wakes up one day and decides they will hold the same values and beliefs as everyone else in the world, this can't be solved. And PLEASE tell me when the democrats and republicans have recently solved anything by 'working together'. I'm pretty sure you'll have a rough time of it.

 

Ermmm... That is in America particularly..

Edited by LoveOfTheMoonChild

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Yes but unless everyone just randomly wakes up one day and decides they will hold the same values and beliefs as everyone else in the world, this can't be solved. And PLEASE tell me when the democrats and republicans have recently solved anything by 'working together'. I'm pretty sure you'll have a rough time of it.

 

Ermmm... That is in America particularly..

That sense can be applied to every issue you've stated then, right? All the issues with the health care, etc. is the result of differing opinions, people in office wanting to work it a different way and so forth. The problem is that you seem to be exercising inactivity.

If we, the people who can essentially make a change, don't start talking about it now, we will never get it solved tomorrow. For example, the rights of black people? If that wasn't spoken about and moved for ( MLK, Rosa Parks, etc. ) that wouldn't have happened, but by what it seems like you're saying, we should have just.. dropped that because there are more important things, or feel hopeless about it changing because not everyone agreed about it.

A rough time doesn't mean we should just drop it. Inactivity is the main problem in most cases.

 

As Odeen said, we can fix more than one thing at once. People are diverse enough to multitask issues, scope them all out, and work on them. But we have to essentially analyze them all at a time, otherwise nothing gets done.

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I buy that, but isn't it easier to hash out healthcare and such rather than gay rights? I mean with systems it's 'lets do this, this, and this...No why not this' and so forth. With gay rights its a whole different ball game. You involve religion, politics, history, science, human nature, and a bunch of other different things just to even begin to debate it. With systems, it's just a matter of what is the best way to do it.

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Yes but unless everyone just randomly wakes up one day and decides they will hold the same values and beliefs as everyone else in the world, this can't be solved.

 

Not randomly, and not just in one day, usually, but people do change their opinions over time, even older people. :-)

 

I haven't gone to check your profile to see how old you are, but it's likely you're younger than I am, and so don't personally remember the concepts about gays and lesbians most of society was burdened with only a few decades ago. Those concepts and the resulting attitudes were appalling, but they were seen as the only natural ones, because everyone seemed to share them. I'm not gay, but somehow I escaped being brainwashed into sharing them. When I spoke up about how wrong I thought those concepts and attitudes were, I got a lot of flack I can tell you.

 

Younger people who didn't live in those times can read about it all, but that's not quite like experiencing it first hand. Attitudes have really changed, and it didn't happen randomly, by accident, it happened because people spoke up. People marched and demonstrated for equal rights, they weren't handed over on a silver platter because someone felt generous that day. And there were lots of other problems in the world way back then, too. :-)

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So.. we should focus all our energy on the easy systems, instead of starting early with the difficult issue so that it will be finally resolved 20 years from now instead of waiting and then having it be solved 50+ years from now? Equality between race is STILL trying to balance itself; there is still racism, but since we handled it early, there is actually some harmony.

What is the issue with just doing both at the same time, though? Where is your issue with that, again..? o:

Also, for the health care and education system, which you seem to me mainly concerned about, there are threads in here for that if you look. o.o; It just sounds like you aren't satisfied with those issues having their own threads, but that you want to shoot down the people concerned in this thread/essentially want there to be no thread about this. I'm just basically stuck with the unsaid implications of your concerns, so clarification on that would be appreciated. :3

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.... I refuse to reveal my age wink.gif but I got smacked in the face with it as well. I lived in a small town for a while where gay was barely heard of. I moved and now all of the sudden, it's every where. I'm having a rough time with it...

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So.. we should focus all our energy on the easy systems, instead of starting early with the difficult issue so that it will be finally resolved 20 years from now instead of waiting and then having it be solved 50+ years from now? Equality between race is STILL trying to balance itself; there is still racism, but since we handled it early, there is actually some harmony.

What is the issue with just doing both at the same time, though? Where is your issue with that, again..? o:

Also, for the health care and education system, which you seem to me mainly concerned about, there are threads in here for that if you look. o.o; It just sounds like you aren't satisfied with those issues having their own threads, but that you want to shoot down the people concerned in this thread/essentially want there to be no thread about this. I'm just basically stuck with the unsaid implications of your concerns, so clarification on that would be appreciated. :3

I'm not saying we shouldnt address it. I'm saying it's getting a bit too much attention in my opinion.

Edited by LoveOfTheMoonChild

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*requests again that we refrain from the erasive "gay rights" and stick to the more inclusive "equality/GSM equality/LGBT equality/GSM rights/etc."*

 

GSM youth face a higher rate of bullying and going homeless. They face higher rates of rape, especially if they are POC and especially if they are trans*.

 

Without marriage equality, many GSM people can't get married, and therefore can't visit their partner in the hospital if they get sick. They can't get the marriage benefits (ie tax deductions) the government offers.

 

Many GSM couples are still kept from adopting.

 

GSM folk only fairly recently were allowed to openly serve in the military. Trans* service members still face discrimination within military laws, however.

 

GSM vets are even more likely to be homeless and less likely to receive care for mental health issues.

 

In 29 states there is still no protection against being fired for your orientation. In 34 states there is still no protection against being fired for your gender.

 

Yes, I wonder why we might worry about receiving equal rights. rolleyes.gif

 

People are allowed to care about multiple issues. All change is hard, but that doesn't mean we just roll over and give up.

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.... I refuse to reveal my age wink.gif but I got smacked in the face with it as well. I lived in a small town for a while where gay was barely heard of. I moved and now all of the sudden, it's every where. I'm having a rough time with it...

I figured that by the way you were talking you didn't have an issue with people caring about this thread so much as the concept in general. It's starting to make sense to me, now.

I can understand being a little shell-shocked at something that you barely/didn't even know was a concept that was common everywhere else, but yes. It helps to stay plugged in to your culture and the rearing issues in it and the gravity at which they are effecting your culture differently than other cultures. If you don't know much about the issue( or any issue for that matter - no harm in studying! ), I would recommend looking it all up before trying to debate it to people who know a lot more about the subject.

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... Okay well here is what I think. You can be GLBT all you want. Personally, I'm strait, but if you want to go the other route, go on with your bad self. We are all human.

But don't flaunt it. I don't like seeing a man and woman making out in public. Same goes for gay couples. If you want to get married, by all means it doesn't hurt me any. But don't force me to accept it. And the other thing: T being gay is not a race so stop pulling that card. That's just me.

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... Okay well here is what I think. You can be GLBT all you want. Personally, I'm strait, but if you want to go the other route, go on with your bad self. We are all human.

But don't flaunt it. I don't like seeing a man and woman making out in public. Same goes for gay couples. If you want to get married, by all means it doesn't hurt me any. But don't force me to accept it. And the other thing: T being gay is not a race so stop pulling that card. That's just me.

That's good - I agree! We are all human. ^-^ Pressing equality and rights and trying to make society safer for a group of people ( in terms of the issues they face, such as bullying ) is not really forcing you to accept it, though. It's not making you have to live any differently, is it? o: If it is, I'd like to know how, seriously. o.o

Also, lmao, the race bit? That's not nearly as linear an issue as you're making it sound. The two issues have one thing in common - mainly one, and it's a pretty large thing, and that's to be able to have rights and the ability to live safely and in harmony with everyone else. I would suggest looking up the problems LGBT people face commonly, and kind of see what I mean by similarities. Equality is a thing that effects us all, and as you've said - we're all human!

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Honestly, health care and education systems aren't an easy thing to change either. Listen to most any diehard Tea Party supporter and they will go on and on and on about "stupid lazy poor people leeching from society stealing tax dollars". You need only to look as far as the last Republican presidential candidate to see that. Why do you think they keep trying to repeal Obamacare? And western education systems are heavily slanted in favor of the straight white male and everyone else gets the short stick. Teachers discriminate against their students because of their personal beliefs; there are loads of stories out there of teachers who bully students (or worse) for being LGBTQ*, POC, girls, etc. People who aren't straight white males are bombarded with messages that they will never be as successful as the straight white male. That's a broken system and while it needs to change, we're not limited to worrying about one problem at a time.

 

... Okay well here is what I think. You can be GLBT all you want. Personally, I'm strait, but if you want to go the other route, go on with your bad self. We are all human.

But don't flaunt it. I don't like seeing a man and woman making out in public. Same goes for gay couples. If you want to get married, by all means it doesn't hurt me any. But don't force me to accept it. And the other thing: T being gay is not a race so stop pulling that card. That's just me.

But this, I can't think of a gentle way of saying this but this is not a good mentality to have. It goes against progress. The way you're talking makes me think you've fallen victim to the anti-LGBTQ* "they're all sex-crazed" propaganda. You can't tell them not to show affection around you. That's erasure. That's wanting to pretend they don't exist. Erasure is oppression. Would you like it if I told you that you shouldn't hold hands with or show affection to your significant other in public? That I, as an asexual (I don't feel sexual attraction, the end), should not be subject to your different sexuality? You'd be hurt, wouldn't you? Why would you shove that feeling on someone else?

 

Now let's put this in the perspective of a queer person: What if someone told you that they would kill you for holding hands with your significant other? Or even simply killing you for something you were born with? Because that's a real danger they face every day. You would be horrified, wouldn't you? I would be. You could argue that they could just not-do it, but that's not really fair because your Constitution guarantees that everyone has the right to feel safe, but right now, LGBTQ* people aren't allowed to feel safe. People are afraid to even say that they're queer because just being queer could get you beaten, raped and killed. One of our own mods here was subject to that discrimination and survived, spending weeks in hospital. His attackers tried to kill him and still went free. That's why this needs to change, and soon. We won't change everyone's minds overnight, but we can take it one step at a time. We can open one heart at a time.

 

I understand being afraid of a new concept that people sheltered you from. Your mind thinks that it must be terrible if people felt the need to protect you from it. Take baby steps. Realize that at least one person you know is probably queer and afraid to tell you. It's a process.

 

EDIT: wrong quote. Also unfinished edits for some reason. o_O

Edited by Lythiaren

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I lived in a small town for a while where gay was barely heard of.

 

I grew up in a small town, too. The word gay meant happy, and homosexuality was the applicable word, but it was never mentioned either. I was taught as a child that everyone was equal and loved by God. It was only later on in my adolescence that various codicils were added that made it clear that certain people weren't included in 'everyone'. Women were to be respected, but we weren't actually entitled to the same rights as men. People of 'other races' weren't quite up to snuff. And when I finally heard about gays and lesbians? They were the scum of the earth. You had to whisper about them, because mentioning them out loud might attract the attention of Satan, their master.

 

 

I moved and now all of the sudden, it's every where. I'm having a rough time with it...

 

 

I moved, too, but somehow I survived. And I don't know what you mean by 'everywhere' exactly. Are gays and lesbians camping out on your front lawn? (Pun intended!) Are LGBT people showing up at your door demanding you accept their relationships to the extent of having them to dinner? Are they trying to change your sexuality in any way?

 

I think what you mean by 'everywhere', is that back in your small town any LGBT people were in the closet, and now they're not. Now they're living like any other people, but also making an issue out of it, so they can have equal rights. And you don't get that at all, because you don't know the history of LGBT people and how at one time they had NO RIGHTS. LGBT people could be fired from their jobs. The police regularly beat them with impunity, if the gay bashers didn't get there first. If gay men didn't get beaten to death, they could be sent to prison for life. It was not actually illegal to be a lesbian, but that didn't mean lesbians had it good otherwise. They could still be fired or lose the rights to their children. It was actually illegal in many places for gays and lesbians to congregate, and the police raided meetings of LGBT people and arrested everyone there.

 

I'm not making any of this up. And if you go back a few centuries in time, you'd be back in the days when gay men were sentenced to death, for what was called sodomy.

 

So, I agree with the advice someone gave earlier, to read up on this subject. Then maybe you -- and by you I mean anyone who thinks this isn't a worthy subject for debate -- then maybe you might understand why LGBT people don't want to hide away in the closet and want to speak up to consolidate their rights.

 

ETA: I forgot to mention a whole lot of stuff that would turn my post into a book, but I had to come back to add that LGBT people at one time could be ordered by the courts to undergo 'therapy' that included all kinds of tortures and abuses. Drugs that made them vomit when they looked at pictures of attractive people of their own gender, for one thing.

Edited by Jennie

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ETA: I forgot to mention a whole lot of stuff that would turn my post into a book, but I had to come back to add that LGBT people at one time could be ordered by the courts to undergo 'therapy' that included all kinds of tortures and abuses.  Drugs that made them vomit when they looked at pictures of attractive people of their own gender, for one thing.

Another example: electroshock therapy. They'd be strapped to a chair and literally electrocuted until they stopped showing signs of attraction to the same sex. And they had to be immobilized in their chairs because:

 

1) they'd try to escape what is obviously torture, and

2) the shocks were so powerful that, if they weren't strapped down, their muscles would contract to the point of breaking their bones.

 

When they were released, most of them just went back into the closet.

Edited by Lythiaren

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Honestly, health care and education systems aren't an easy thing to change either. Listen to most any diehard Tea Party supporter and they will go on and on and on about "stupid lazy poor people leeching from society stealing tax dollars". You need only to look as far as the last Republican presidential candidate to see that. Why do you think they keep trying to repeal Obamacare? And western education systems are heavily slanted in favor of the straight white male and everyone else gets the short stick. Teachers discriminate against their students because of their personal beliefs; there are loads of stories out there of teachers who bully students (or worse) for being LGBTQ*, POC, girls, etc. People who aren't straight white males are bombarded with messages that they will never be as successful as the straight white male. That's a broken system and while it needs to change, we're not limited to worrying about one problem at a time.

 

 

But this, I can't think of a gentle way of saying this but this is not a good mentality to have. It goes against progress. The way you're talking makes me think you've fallen victim to the anti-LGBTQ* "they're all sex-crazed" propaganda. You can't tell them not to show affection around you. That's erasure. That's wanting to pretend they don't exist. Erasure is oppression. Would you like it if I told you that you shouldn't hold hands with or show affection to your significant other in public? That I, as an asexual (I don't feel sexual attraction, the end), should not be subject to your different sexuality? You'd be hurt, wouldn't you? Why would you shove that feeling on someone else?

 

Now let's put this in the perspective of a queer person: What if someone told you that they would kill you for holding hands with your significant other? Or even simply killing you for something you were born with? Because that's a real danger they face every day. You would be horrified, wouldn't you? I would be. You could argue that they could just not-do it, but that's not really fair because your Constitution guarantees that everyone has the right to feel safe, but right now, LGBTQ* people aren't allowed to feel safe. People are afraid to even say that they're queer because just being queer could get you beaten, raped and killed. One of our own mods here was subject to that discrimination and survived, spending weeks in hospital. His attackers tried to kill him and still went free. That's why this needs to change, and soon. We won't change everyone's minds overnight, but we can take it one step at a time. We can open one heart at a time.

 

I understand being afraid of a new concept that people sheltered you from. Your mind thinks that it must be terrible if people felt the need to protect you from it. Take baby steps. Realize that at least one person you know is probably queer and afraid to tell you. It's a

 

EDIT: wrong quote.

You are blowing what I said way out of proportion. I have not 'fallen victim' to anything, and I said that I don't even like seeing strait people making out in public. Meaning things like that belong in a private place thank you very much.

I also have gay friends, so I can deal.

And I don't have to accept a concept if I don't want to.

And I never said they needed to be slaughtered or they should die for being gay. As I said earlier, we are all human.

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