Marriage Equality and Other MOGAI/Queer Rights

[The Evil Doer]

Uh, no.

 

That is absolutely wrong, I don't even know where to start.

 

I grew up my entire life with gay parents. Not ONCE was I "conflicted" or "confused". A 4 year old is MORE than capable of understanding that some people are gay and some people are straight- I did! My little sister knows that some people have two mommies, some have two daddies, some have a mom and a dad, some have either a mom or a dad. Or some live with their grandparents, etc.

Kids are NOT stupid.

 

I knew that a lot of my friends, when I was younger, had moms and dads. I had two moms. So? I never questioned it. It was normal because everyone's family was different. There never needs to be an in depth, detailed explanation when it comes to those things.

Look, the whole "youre wrong coz I".. .thats indicating to me its hitting a nerve and that its personal, Im not looking to offend you so I'll drop it...

 

If you feel like looking more into it (for the sake of understanding the topic better) just google psychological development of children, psychology started researching the topic in the late 18th century, what I said is just what scientists believe today... You think they're wrong, Im cool with that...

Edited March 26, 2013 by The Evil Doer

[Vhale]

Look, the whole "youre wrong coz I".. .thats indicating to me its hitting a nerve and that its personal, Im not looking to offend you so I'll drop it...

 

If you feel like looking more into it (for the sake of understanding the topic better) just google psychological development of children, psychology started researching the topic in the late 18th century, what I said is just the what scientists believe today... You think they're wrong, Im cool with that...

People are saying, it's not that simple. If it was, then frankly, straight parents are doing a sucky job. Right now, 40% of homeless teens identify as LGBT. Why? Apparently they were conflicted about staying with straight parents who rejected them or tossed them out. And 3 women die every day from spousal abuse. The kids in those situations have a wee bit more stress than a kid that has loving LGBT parents.

[tenyasyugan]

I hate to burst your bubble, Evil Doer, but psychology is an imperfect science, especially those that rely on surveys alone, and even though the research may have been long-standing you may be misinterpreting it. I have seen more scientists show proof that being raised by homosexual parents has little difference to heterosexual ones [some even showing signs of better environments for the child] than I have trust-worthy papers saying the opposite.

 

From what I know of psychology [i plan on majoring in college with this in mind], you cannot always rely on the oldest information, even if it has been around for a long time. In fact, you shouldn't trust it for precisely that reason. Our understanding of how and why people behave certain ways is still limited and if you're not including neuroscience in your psychological speeches you may as well just be making conjectures.

 

Anyway, on the topic, it's really not that hard to understand that people should treat people as people and not spend so much time on classifying or separating them. People are just people. Some are rude, some are very kind, but in the end it's just a person, so why split up these people and deny them rights simply because they happen to have a [not so rare] difference from other people?

[The Evil Doer]

I hate to burst your bubble, Evil Doer, but psychology is an imperfect science, especially those that rely on surveys alone, and even though the research may have been long-standing you may be misinterpreting it. I have seen more scientists show proof that being raised by homosexual parents has little difference to heterosexual ones [some even showing signs of better environments for the child] than I have trust-worthy papers saying the opposite.

 

From what I know of psychology [i plan on majoring in college with this in mind], you cannot always rely on the oldest information, even if it has been around for a long time. In fact, you shouldn't trust it for precisely that reason. Our understanding of how and why people behave certain ways is still limited and if you're not including neuroscience in your psychological speeches you may as well just be making conjectures.

 

Anyway, on the topic, it's really not that hard to understand that people should treat people as people and not spend so much time on classifying or separating them. People are just people. Some are rude, some are very kind, but in the end it's just a person, so why split up these people and deny them rights simply because they happen to have a [not so rare] difference from other people?

I would gladly re-educate myself and admit that Im completely wrong if you could show me a scientific research that claims - "hetrosexual kid is actually in a better psychological environment with loving homosexual parents than with loving hetrosexual parents".. Would really love to read that, sounds interesting to me....

[danegrrrl]

Majority of children would rather have mom and dad and not two parents of the same sex, what child would choose to be different and hence exposed to ridicule ? What child who isnt gay himself/herself would rather have homosexual parents (different than him/her) ? Makes no sense...

And most kids want a unicorn, too.

 

Kids learn what they are taught. That means - teach them acceptance so they don't grow up bigoted and treating people like total crap because they have a different lifestyle.

 

Don't like gay marriage? Don't get one. That should be where the discussion ends.

 

And as far as what the bible says, (since I see people condemning gays and denying them equality based on some outdated maybe real maybe false block of text and think "Hey, that makes good sense! Not.")....who gives a rip? I don't believe in the bible, or some all mighty deity that gives his people the audacity to condemn others. Forcing people to abide by laws and lifetime of inequality set forth by a spirit is about as asinine as asking a monkey to decide on our next President.

 

What if someone tried to dictate YOUR (generic your) marriage rights based on your race? Or someone else's religion? It wouldn't feel so hot, would it? Except it's not just about marriage. It's about treating another human as a human...with kindness, equality, and acceptance. Not like they are lepers or something that should be hidden from society.

 

We have GOT to stop projecting OUR ideals on one another, and start being more accepting of other people's differences. It makes the world a WHOLE lot happier when we're not busy looking down our noses at one another.

[hazeh]

I would gladly re-educate myself and admit that Im completely wrong if you could show me a scientific research that claims - "hetrosexual kid is actually in a better psychological environment with loving homosexual parents than with loving hetrosexual parents".. Would really love to read that, sounds interesting to me....

You're not going to find any proof for either argument, including your own, with this question, because children from both environments will be, on average, equal in health and psychological standing.

 

It really only takes one or two child development classes to understand that. n_n

[tenyasyugan]

I would gladly re-educate myself and admit that Im completely wrong if you could show me a scientific research that claims - "hetrosexual kid is actually in a better psychological environment with loving homosexual parents than with loving hetrosexual parents".. Would really love to read that, sounds interesting to me....

http://psycnet.apa.org/?fa=main.doiLanding...2-1649.31.1.105 [it's just a short paraphrasing of the full article, which must be purchased, but suffices]

 

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J082v18n01_09 [another paraphrasing of a full article, this one does not need to be purchased]

 

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111....00302/abstract [like the above, you can download the full article and this is a comparison of several studies]

 

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J082v12n02_07 [this one comments on active parent behaviors between homosexual and heterosexual parents, you may access the full text]

 

These are just a few, the first from a well-known psychologist association that does its best to stay recent. I would have provided links to some interesting newspaper articles as well, but, sadly, I've forgotten their titles.

[Riverwillows]

I would gladly re-educate myself and admit that Im completely wrong if you could show me a scientific research that claims - "hetrosexual kid is actually in a better psychological environment with loving homosexual parents than with loving hetrosexual parents".. Would really love to read that, sounds interesting to me....

Ok, then I have a challenge for you. Go out and actually TALK to kids who have gay parents. Sit down and talk to them. Ask them your questions.

 

Just blindly going with "scientific data" is not a way to get the correct info in many cases. I love science, don't get me wrong, but it cannot explain a lot of things. It can only generalize.

 

Science once thought the world was flat too. And it was a hanging offense to postulate otherwise. And science once was firm on the idea that surgery was pointless and demonic.

 

Go find some actual kids living with gay parents, and talk to them. That will tell you the truth of the whole matter.

 

 

[hazeh]

*waves hands*

 

Kid of gay parents here, with a 6 year old sister and soon to be brother of 9 months

[ShinyTomato]

What do you mean no ?? Majority of children would rather have mom and dad and not two parents of the same sex, what child would choose to be different and hence exposed to ridicule ? What child who isnt gay himself/herself would rather have homosexual parents (different than him/her) ? Makes no sense...

A lot actually. Especially those who feel judged by people.

 

And as someone with a degree in developmental psychology, nothing you've said is correct. Google is not a reliable source.

[The Evil Doer]

Ok, then I have a challenge for you. Go out and actually TALK to kids who have gay parents. Sit down and talk to them. Ask them your questions.

 

Just blindly going with "scientific data" is not a way to get the correct info in many cases. I love science, don't get me wrong, but it cannot explain a lot of things. It can only generalize.

 

Science once thought the world was flat too. And it was a hanging offense to postulate otherwise. And science once was firm on the idea that surgery was pointless and demonic.

 

Go find some actual kids living with gay parents, and talk to them. That will tell you the truth of the whole matter.

Coz its a well known fact that kids and high self-awareness are a great match ? Im not qualified to ask questions nor deduce anything based on them, I just know what I've read about psychological development, however I will now go and read the stuff someone else has posted for me...

 

Psst, psst, science wasnt hanging people for "the world was flat", religion did, matter of fact I have no idea where did you get that from as most of the time it was scientists who were killed for it... Ancient Greek is where the idea first originated about the world not being flat, and that was a loooong time ago so I think you're confusing facts with urban legends.. (like the one claiming that humans use only 10% of their brains)

[The Evil Doer]

http://psycnet.apa.org/?fa=main.doiLanding...2-1649.31.1.105 [it's just a short paraphrasing of the full article, which must be purchased, but suffices]

 

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J082v18n01_09 [another paraphrasing of a full article, this one does not need to be purchased]

 

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111....00302/abstract [like the above, you can download the full article and this is a comparison of several studies]

 

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J082v12n02_07 [this one comments on active parent behaviors between homosexual and heterosexual parents, you may access the full text]

 

These are just a few, the first from a well-known psychologist association that does its best to stay recent. I would have provided links to some interesting newspaper articles as well, but, sadly, I've forgotten their titles.

Ok, checked the abstract, most of them dont have a sufficient sample size and while they do say there is no difference I havent seen one claiming that it is healthier for a straight child to live have homosexual parents than hetrosexual ones.. however they are interesting, off back to read some more

[tenyasyugan]

As mentioned on a couple of them, there has been an issue of not enough people volunteering and, in general, not enough resources have really gone into studying the effects from all angles. The only contradictory paper I found [that was free to access and well discussed] brought that up as a major fault, but also tried to argue that, since there wasn't enough evidence yet, we shouldn't allow gay-marriage due to possible abuses. Realistically, all pairings have possible abuses and, arguably, the odds of abuse do not decrease just because the parents are heterosexual. The paper lost validity to me for overlooking this fact and attempting to make homosexual relationships appear worse off due to lack of information.

 

Since it's just a lack of studies and group sizes, I can understand skepticism, but I can't tolerate those who would vilify it simply because nobody has bothered to put enough resources into studying it fully yet.

[Dragonnhawke]

Hi. I am a MtoF transgender. I grew up with a heterosexual mom, and a gay father. Many of my friends are gay and lesbian.

 

The only conflict I had growing up was my gender identity. Both my mother, and my father have always been supportive of me, neither one of their sexual preferences were the cause of my own conflict. In fact, it helped that my father was gay, because it gave me insight to that way of life.

 

I have many friends, some are gay, some are not, and some were raised in two-same-sex parent families. Those who were, never had any conflict with their own identities, in fact, I'm sad to say, my friends who WERE raised with a mom and dad, have more problems and issues than those raised with single parents, or two same sex.

 

I and my sisters grew up in a loving happy family. My sisters are heterosexual. I have always known I was female, even when I was just a little kid.

 

I guess my point is, it seems to me, that some here are relying completely on stuff they have read, or classes they took, rather than listening to people who have actually grown up in the way that is being challenged.

 

Listen to us. We will tell you, better than anyone, that gay marriage, and being gay, has nothing to do with why a kid feels conflicts, or is good or bad.

 

I'm 24 now, and I could not have had it better. BTW...my mom is Riverwillows.

[The Evil Doer]

A lot actually. Especially those who feel judged by people.

 

And as someone with a degree in developmental psychology, nothing you've said is correct. Google is not a reliable source.

Cool, so you are a psychiatrist or psychology major right ?

 

Are you claiming (objectively) that a homosexual child wouldnt be growing up in a healthier environment with a homosexual couple as opposed to with a straight couple (assuming there is no difference in their parenting skills) ?

While you at it, as a psychology major are you certain that a homosexual/hetrosexual couple while preaching acceptance and love (meaning it with all their heart) would not on a subconscious level possibly have unresolved issues with the "difference" ?

 

Are you claiming that when a child is exposed to a certain sexuality at home that is different from what he/she it will have zero impact on his psyche when growing up ?

Edited March 27, 2013 by The Evil Doer

[The Evil Doer]

As mentioned on a couple of them, there has been an issue of not enough people volunteering and, in general, not enough resources have really gone into studying the effects from all angles. The only contradictory paper I found [that was free to access and well discussed] brought that up as a major fault, but also tried to argue that, since there wasn't enough evidence yet, we shouldn't allow gay-marriage due to possible abuses. Realistically, all pairings have possible abuses and, arguably, the odds of abuse do not decrease just because the parents are heterosexual. The paper lost validity to me for overlooking this fact and attempting to make homosexual relationships appear worse off due to lack of information.

 

Since it's just a lack of studies and group sizes, I can understand skepticism, but I can't tolerate those who would vilify it simply because nobody has bothered to put enough resources into studying it fully yet.

Agreed, But I'm not against gay marriages, all I said is that assuming all factors are the same (happy family, supportive parents, acceptance love, care etc), then homosexual child will have a healthier environment with homosexual parents as opposed to with hetrosexual ones, black child will have a healthier environment with black parents as opposed to with Asian parents coz parents are the biggest influence on kids, in a happy home kids wanna be like their parents and similarity erases identity conflicts...

Thats what I think, thats what makes sense to me and thats what I have deduced from the things psychology related I was exposed to....

 

That doesnt mean Im not open to new information, and if its compelling enough, to changing my pov....

[tenyasyugan]

You can never promise that a child won't have some regrets about their parents in any situation, Evil Doer. I have friends with different sexual orientations who regret many of their parents' behaviors and what they've said to them in the past, and it's something that can happen in any parent-child relationship. There will always be some hardship or difference between parent and child.

 

But, that doesn't mean that homosexual parents are worse than heterosexual parents just because they can't avoid a fault that even heterosexual couples experience. Children form their own opinions and the most a parent can do is try and be loving and accepting of their child.

 

I know that I have issues at times with my mother's expressions of sexuality even though she's straight. I don't think it'd be any different if she were homosexual. It's simply something that happens when two people develop with different thoughts.

 

EDIT: And you're entering risky waters by proclaiming that race makes a difference in how comfortable a child feels with family. :/ A child raised with any race feels part of that race or family, no matter what. The only difference is how other people treat it. If people regarded it as normal, there would be no harm done or sense of being outcast.

Edited March 27, 2013 by tenyasyugan

[ShinyTomato]

Cool, so are you a psychiatrist or psychology major right ?

 

Are you claiming (objectively) that a homosexual child wouldnt be growing up in a healthier environment with a homosexual couple as opposed to with a straight couple (assuming there is no difference in their parenting skills) ?

While you at it, as a psychology major are you certain that a homosexual/hetrosexual couple while preaching acceptance and love (meaning it with all their heart) would not on a subconscious level possibly have unresolved issues with the "difference" ?

 

Are you claiming that when a child is exposed to a certain sexuality at home that is different from what he/she it will have zero impact on his psyche when growing up ?

No, I'm a social worker with a DEGREE in developmental psychology and child development, Not a major. I have my Masters, thank you.

 

What I am saying in that over multiple studies, there has been shown no quantifiable difference in psychology of children raised by heterosexual parents versus homosexual parents, and that there was no discernable difference in the US or internationally that showed ANY influence on the child's development or identity. The only even slight difference was that the genetic children of homosexuals vs fostered or adopted children were 1% less likely to be gay than heterosexuals genetic offspring.

[The Evil Doer]

EDIT: And you're entering risky waters by proclaiming that race makes a difference in how comfortable a child feels with family. :/ A child raised with any race feels part of that race or family, no matter what. The only difference is how other people treat it. If people regarded it as normal, there would be no harm done or sense of being outcast.

Why of course I think it does, Asian parents will never know what it means to be a black person hence their child while being loved and cared for will probably always feel like he's different based only on his race which will cause him some identity issues (major issues or not that is an individual thing), issues that wouldnt exist if he was to have black parents... That doesnt mean I think Asians wouldnt be just as good parents as the black ones, I just think he has a "healthier" environment with parents who are more similar to him...

[klinneah]

Okay so I have a question, all over my facebook I see pictures with a pink symbol on a red background...some of them are addition or multiplication signs but most of them are equals signs. I am positive it has something to do with this topic but I'm not sure what. Would anyone like to explain?

[tenyasyugan]

Why of course I think it does, Asian parents will never know what it means to be a black person hence their child while being loved and cared for will probably always feel like he's different based only on his race which will cause him some identity issues (major issues or not that is an individual thing), issues that wouldnt exist if he was to have black parents... That doesnt mean I think Asians wouldnt be just as good parents as the black ones, I just think he has a "healthier" environment with parents who are more similar to him...

Reread what you just said. You're implying that races are like completely different people, when they're not. I keep repeating it. A person is a person who is a person. The only reason people think any different is because they were raised being told that there is a difference between you and this guy because you have different skin tones, or eyes, or you lived in a different country.

 

The health of a child is dictated by the care given to them, not what their parents look like or where they come from. If the parents are able to care for and love that child, that child is in a healthy home. Gender, sex, and race should not be part of the equation of loving your child. Because, once you have them, they're your baby. Nothing should change that unless the parents themselves change it.

[Riverwillows]

Okay so I have a question, all over my facebook I see pictures with a pink symbol on a red background...some of them are addition or multiplication signs but most of them are equals signs. I am positive it has something to do with this topic but I'm not sure what. Would anyone like to explain?

Yes. I believe the sign you are mentioning, apparently was started by George Takei. It is a pink "equal" sign, and is to represent his stand on marriage equality, that is being presented today to the Supreme Court. Everyone who copies that, is proclaiming the same stance.

 

I am assuming those who are using multiplication and plus signs are of the same view. He has also said that if you use the "division" sign, you are against marriage equality.

 

The Supreme Court should make a final decision by June or so, but its kind of a milestone that it's being brought up to them at all.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Riverwillows

[klinneah]

Yes. I believe the sign you are mentioning, apparently was started by George Takei. It is a pink "equal" sign, and is to represent his stand on marriage equality, that is being presented today to the Supreme Court. Everyone who copies that, is proclaiming the same stance.

I see. I thought I saw someone mention the Supreme Court and I wasn't sure what was going on. Thank you!

 

ETA: One of the Catholic pages I follow was using the plus sign as the "against" stance, so I wasn't sure. One of my friends also shared this photo.

 

the friend who shared the photo is also Catholic, so grain of salt, yadda yadda

Edited March 27, 2013 by klinneah

[sparkle10184]

What do you mean no ?? Majority of children would rather have mom and dad and not two parents of the same sex, what child would choose to be different and hence exposed to ridicule ? What child who isnt gay himself/herself would rather have homosexual parents (different than him/her) ? Makes no sense...

I would not care. As long as they love each other and me.

 

Why of course I think it does, Asian parents will never know what it means to be a black person hence their child while being loved and cared for will probably always feel like he's different based only on his race which will cause him some identity issues (major issues or not that is an individual thing), issues that wouldnt exist if he was to have black parents... That doesnt mean I think Asians wouldnt be just as good parents as the black ones, I just think he has a "healthier" environment with parents who are more similar to him...

A parent is a parent. You are making races sound very different. An Asian and an African-american are NOT to different species'!

Edited March 27, 2013 by sparkle10184

[Riverwillows]

I see. I thought I saw someone mention the Supreme Court and I wasn't sure what was going on. Thank you!

 

ETA: One of the Catholic pages I follow was using the plus sign as the "against" stance, so I wasn't sure. One of my friends also shared this photo.

 

the friend who shared the photo is also Catholic, so grain of salt, yadda yadda

Ah, ok. I wasn't sure. Not sure what the muliplication symbol means.