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MURDERcomplexx

Marriage Equality and Other MOGAI/Queer Rights

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I would stand up and protest. I would protest because it's wrong, even if I was vastly outnumbered. That's what happens at protests, and the people still do it.

 

Everyone does has freedom of marriage and life choices. And it's up to them how they will make those choices. If they choose to get married to someone of the same sex, then they can do so. But that doesn't mean it's right.

Why is it not right?

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Why is it not right?

Again, this brings us back to our own opinions. Everything we say will be, in one way or another, influenced by our worldviews and they way we look at things. My belief is that it is not right because of what it says in the Bible. Again, everyone is entitled to their own opinions/beliefs, even the people that are supporting gay marriage. But you can always stand out against something, even if the whole world is against you.

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Again, this brings us back to our own opinions. Everything we say will be, in one way or another, influenced by our worldviews and they way we look at things. My belief is that it is not right because of what it says in the Bible. Again, everyone is entitled to their own opinions/beliefs, even the people that are supporting gay marriage. But you can always stand out against something, even if the whole world is against you.

However there are many different ways to interpret the Bible and I don't realy believe that the Bible says anything negative about gay marriage.

 

Edit: Howver I am glad that you can take a more open-minded view and at least agree that everyone can make their own choices and have their own opinions.

Edited by Snowytoshi

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My belief is that it is not right because of what it says in the Bible.

I think this needs to be more specific if you want to have it discussed further. Do you mean verses in the Old Testament laws, wherein other things like eating pork and wearing mixed-thread clothing are also condemned (which was all overturned by Christ's fulfillment of the law and thus is no longer binding to Christians), or the New Testament somewhere?

 

Also, it seems that the religious significance of the practice is being conflated with the secular benefits of marriage. If same-sex couples were granted the same rights in regards to taxes, visiting on the partner's deathbed, etc. with a different name attached and no formal ceremony, would you still be against it? *curious*

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My belief is that it is not right because of what it says in the Bible.

I disagree with you on this. I *don't* think that's what it says in the Bible. We have a resident Jew here who has explained several times that the OT passages used to argue against Gay Marriage - in their original contexts and the Hebrew - do not apply to modern-day homosexual relationships, but to Temple Prostitution. And the NT references in the Pauline writings use a Greek word - Arsenokoitai - that hasn't been recorded anywhere else *except* in Paul's writings. This is significant for a few reasons, among which that there were several very well used Greek words that *did* cover something approaching homosexuality as we know it today. That Paul chose not to use those words speaks volumes, as does it's use in the context of the writings. Arsenokoitai was first translated as 'homosexual' in the 1950's - which means even that understanding of those passages is a totally modern invention.

 

So, no. I, as a Bible studying Christian, do not believe the Bible says homosexuality is wrong. I'm also quite happy to debate the point with you using scripture and context to back myself up.

 

Edited to add - I also wish to note that a secular marriage =/= holy matrimony. On a personal note I do believe that adultery and divorce are wrong - but you won't see me standing up to protest about divorced people getting civil marriages because it's none of my damned business. I may find it immoral, but it is not my place to force my morals on other people. I can merely hope that my example would encourage others to adopt them.

Edited by TikindiDragon

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*sighs*

 

I'm getting out of this thread. Before I get enraged.

 

Mod edit: It's good to leave a thread when you are upset, but there's no need to make a post about it! Try keeping things as on discussion as possible.

Edited by MURDERcomplexx

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@briartrainer: I guess I can't argue this without bringing in Religion. Yup, I'm a Christian. =.= The Bible clearly defines marriage between a man and a woman as the right thing, and forbides sexual immorality (a.k.a. gay marriage or sex outside of marriage). So yea. I've kinda made things a bit awkward here, and blown them up a bit. I would not like to get on a debate on the whole "why do you believe in the Bible" sort of thing, please.

Ignoring the fact that I think your interpretation of what the bible says about homosexual relationships is incorrect....

 

Since you find it acceptable to have the rules of your religion placed on those who do not believe in that religion, how do you feel about people of other religions forcing their rules on you? How would you feel if your heterosexual marriage was deemed as 'wrong' by another religion, and people were protesting your wedding? Would you consider that to be fair and just, since you would do the same with your religion?

Edited by Syaoransbear

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I would stand up and protest. I would protest because it's wrong, even if I was vastly outnumbered. That's what happens at protests, and the people still do it.

 

Everyone does has freedom of marriage and life choices. And it's up to them how they will make those choices. If they choose to get married to someone of the same sex, then they can do so. But that doesn't mean it's right.

Do you believe in freedom of speech? Then why not freedom of choice and marriage?

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Tikindi: I totally missed the fact that Paul's wording is not found elsewhere. I need to look into that.

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I disagree with you on this. I *don't* think that's what it says in the Bible. We have a resident Jew here who has explained several times that the OT passages used to argue against Gay Marriage - in their original contexts and the Hebrew - do not apply to modern-day homosexual relationships, but to Temple Prostitution. And the NT references in the Pauline writings use a Greek word - Arsenokoitai - that hasn't been recorded anywhere else *except* in Paul's writings. This is significant for a few reasons, among which that there were several very well used Greek words that *did* cover something approaching homosexuality as we know it today. That Paul chose not to use those words speaks volumes, as does it's use in the context of the writings. Arsenokoitai was first translated as 'homosexual' in the 1950's - which means even that understanding of those passages is a totally modern invention.

 

So, no. I, as a Bible studying Christian, do not believe the Bible says homosexuality is wrong. I'm also quite happy to debate the point with you using scripture and context to back myself up.

 

Edited to add - I also wish to note that a secular marriage =/= holy matrimony. On a personal note I do believe that adultery and divorce are wrong - but you won't see me standing up to protest about divorced people getting civil marriages because it's none of my damned business. I may find it immoral, but it is not my place to force my morals on other people. I can merely hope that my example would encourage others to adopt them.

Resident Jew, present and accounted for!

 

Also, Tiki, brief correction, if you don't mind, Arsenokoitai has been found to be used elsewhere, but it's always been used in strict relation to heterosexual acts outside of the Pauline epistles, usually in reference to married women keeping sex slaves and dishonouring their husband's bed or "couch" in the Koine, with them.

 

My belief is that it is not right because of what it says in the Bible.

 

I see. And what is your view of the nomen sacra? Who do you feel holds the best textual criticism, with dating the majority text? If you hold the Bible is inspired, is it the Byzantine or Alexandrian versions of the text that you hold to be inspired? When viewing the Textus Receptus as a document of it's time, do you feel that current English is unable to encompass some of the intricacies, due to shifting lingua franca and grammar rules? What of your opinions of the handling of Corinthians and the authorship questions of other epistles? Oh, one last question, what Greek version of the Bible did you study, Doric or Koine, or both?

 

Sorry if I'm asking too many questions, but I'm just trying to get a feel for where you're coming from and your Biblical viewpoints. For me, personally, I'm Jewish, I have no horse in the New Testament race.

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Again, this brings us back to our own opinions. Everything we say will be, in one way or another, influenced by our worldviews and they way we look at things. My belief is that it is not right because of what it says in the Bible. Again, everyone is entitled to their own opinions/beliefs, even the people that are supporting gay marriage. But you can always stand out against something, even if the whole world is against you.

My father was a Christian minister, and a first class theologian, and was adamant that the bible does NOT preclude gay relationships. Also two Christian saints - Sergius and Bacchus - were married in a religious ceremony, way back when.

 

You are very young, so I will hope you will grow out of this mindset.

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I think it's a little strange IMO, but that's just my own personal opinion and heck, as long as the people love eachother, that's all that matters. Isn't that what marriage is meant to do? Officially unite two who are in love?

Edited by Dracoscar

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@briartrainer: I guess I can't argue this without bringing in Religion. Yup, I'm a Christian. =.= The Bible clearly defines marriage between a man and a woman as the right thing, and forbides sexual immorality (a.k.a. gay marriage or sex outside of marriage). So yea. I've kinda made things a bit awkward here, and blown them up a bit. I would not like to get on a debate on the whole "why do you believe in the Bible" sort of thing, please.

 

@Maggie: My opinion will not take away their rights. Everyone has freedom of speech, and are entitled to their own opinions. To share an opinion is sharing what you think, and not what will really happen. This whole thread is to talk about this subject, and not to make our opinions law.

 

@WereJace: Thank you...I think. tongue.gif

In response to you I am a christian as well and have seen our 'resident jew' who explained what the old testiment meant (waves at Noble Owl) and think that since we as christians are required to turn the other cheek and love all of God's children we cannot in good faith deny rights unless it infringes on others. I'm afraid I still don't understand your arugment.

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Also, Tiki, brief correction, if you don't mind, Arsenokoitai has been found to be used elsewhere, but it's always been used in strict relation to heterosexual acts outside of the Pauline epistles, usually in reference to married women keeping sex slaves and dishonouring their husband's bed or "couch" in the Koine, with them.

I stand corrected. Although would I be right in thinking it was Paul that had coined the term?

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I stand corrected. Although would I be right in thinking it was Paul that had coined the term?

Yes, Paul coined the term, as far as we can tell. The only other place it's found is in Roman pornography/erotica of a later period.

 

Interestingly, the "agreed upon" meaning for a long time was referring to masturbation -- that was the opinion of both Martin Luther and the Catholic Encylopedia until the 1970s.

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Shulchan Aruch -- Every man is obligated to marry a women in order to be fruitful and to multiply and anyone who doesn’t engage in being fruitful and multiplying is as if he spills blood, and lessens the appearance, and causes the divine presence to depart from Israel.

Rem”a: He who does not marry is not allowed to make a blessing or to engage in Torah etc. and he is not called a man, and when he marries a woman his sins are cast into doubt, as it is said: “One who has found a wife has found goodness and obtains favor in the eyes of God.” (Prv. 18:22)

 

Talmud Yebamoth 62b ”Tanhum stated in the name of R. Hanilai: Any man who has no wife lives without joy, without blessing, and without goodness. ‘Without joy’. for it is written. And thou shalt rejoice, thou and thy house.27 ‘Without blessing’, for it is written, To cause a blessing to rest on thy house.28 ‘Without goodness’, for it is written, It is not good that the man should be alone.29”

 

Genesis Rabbah 8:8 No man can exist without a woman, and no woman can exist without a man. Nor can the two of them exist without the presence of God.

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Shulchan Aruch -- Every man is obligated to marry a women in order to be fruitful and to multiply and anyone who doesn’t engage in being fruitful and multiplying is as if he spills blood, and lessens the appearance, and causes the divine presence to depart from Israel.

Rem”a: He who does not marry is not allowed to make a blessing or to engage in Torah etc. and he is not called a man, and when he marries a woman his sins are cast into doubt, as it is said: “One who has found a wife has found goodness and obtains favor in the eyes of God.” (Prv. 18:22)

 

Talmud Yebamoth 62b ”Tanhum stated in the name of R. Hanilai: Any man who has no wife lives without joy, without blessing, and without goodness. ‘Without joy’. for it is written. And thou shalt rejoice, thou and thy house.27 ‘Without blessing’, for it is written, To cause a blessing to rest on thy house.28 ‘Without goodness’, for it is written, It is not good that the man should be alone.29”

 

Genesis Rabbah 8:8 No man can exist without a woman, and no woman can exist without a man. Nor can the two of them exist without the presence of God.

Of course for those who aren't Christan, the Bible's arguements are meaningless anyway.

 

Here are two sites discussing marriage in the Bible:

http://www.gaychristian101.com/Marriage-in-the-Bible.html

http://www.upworthy.com/every-biblical-arg...nked-biblically

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Shulchan Aruch -- Every man is obligated to marry a women in order to be fruitful and to multiply and anyone who doesn’t engage in being fruitful and multiplying is as if he spills blood, and lessens the appearance, and causes the divine presence to depart from Israel.

So I guess infertile people should just lay down and die, then? Since they aren't going to have children no matter who they marry.

 

Also that whole "be fruitful and multiply" thing made a whole lot more sense back when the world didn't have 7 billion people in it already.

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Here's my opinion on this whole matter.

 

I don't care who you are, where you live, and what status you hold, gay marriage is wrong. On another note, abortion is too. But that's beside the point. Gay marriage is a horrible practice, something that has boggled my mind as to why people even argue for it. If a bill passes, and becomes law, enabling gay marriage, then I shall continue to stand up against it and everything it entails. Marriage should be the way it was supposed to be, with a man and a woman, and not defiled by attractions to people of the same gender.

Even though marriage predates the Bible, and more people don't adhere to the Bible than people who do?

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Everyone does has freedom of marriage and life choices. And it's up to them how they will make those choices. If they choose to get married to someone of the same sex, then they can do so. But that doesn't mean it's right.

But it doesn't mean it's wrong either.

 

So, are you saying that your beliefs in god and the bible should dictate EVERYONE'S beliefs and right to a happy marriage and life?

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Interestingly, the "agreed upon" meaning for a long time was referring to masturbation -- that was the opinion of both Martin Luther and the Catholic Encylopedia until the 1970s.

 

I looked it up.

 

Luther Bible 1545

 

Knabenschänder = boy molesters!

 

So, are you saying that your beliefs in god and the bible should dictate EVERYONE'S beliefs and right to a happy marriage and life?

 

We don’t want to be wiped out again!

 

Genesis Rabbah “Rabbi Huna in the name of Rabbi Yosef said): The generation of the Flood was not wiped out until they wrote gemumasi 'ot for (the union of a man to) a male or to an animal.”

 

Talmud "'Ula said: Non-Jews [litt. Bnei Noach, the progeny of Noah] accepted upon themselves thirty mitzvot [divinely ordered laws] but they only abide by three of them: the first one is that they do not write marriage documents for male couples, the second one is that they don't sell dead [human] meat by the pound in stores and the third one is that they respect the Torah.'"

 

Here are two sites discussing marriage in the Bible:

 

For the second link, the kid admits that Paul didn’t have a clue.

 

“But I wish everyone were single, just as I am. Yet each person has a special gift from God, of one kind or another. So I say to those who aren't married and to widows--it's better to stay unmarried, just as I am. But if they can't control themselves, they should go ahead and marry. It's better to marry than to burn with lust. But for those who are married, I have a command that comes not from me, but from the Lord. A wife must not leave her husband. [yadda yadda wife husband]”

 

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So, are you saying that your beliefs in god and the bible should dictate EVERYONE'S beliefs and right to a happy marriage and life?

 

 

We don’t want to be wiped out again!

I don't think we're in any danger of that anytime soon.

 

What with the 7,065,210,748 people on the earth and all.

 

Cite: http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html

Edited by Snowytoshi

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Shulchan Aruch -- Every man is obligated to marry a women in order to be fruitful and to multiply and anyone who doesn’t engage in being fruitful and multiplying is as if he spills blood, and lessens the appearance, and causes the divine presence to depart from Israel. <cut for length>

Aaaand what about those of us who don't follow the Abrahamic religions? Or those of us for whom pregnancy would be dangerous? Or those of us who would be awful parents? And as someone above said--what about infertile couples? Can't they get married? What about elderly couples?

 

You are more than welcome to your beliefs. But they are not my beliefs, and I am not going to follow rules of a religion I don't believe in--why would I? You aren't going to follow mine.

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Hey there, just a Xylene dropping in to add her 2 cents to the bucket. I don't care about religion (It's great to believe in something, and if you don't, hey, that's cool too), I don't care about sexual orientation (I'm asexual, so what?), and I'm supportive of allowing gay marriage.

 

Here's my history: My dad is agnostic. He's indifferent to gay marriage and happily lets whatever happens, happen. My mom is a non-practicing Christian. She's pretty homophobic. She used to tell me how smart one of my friends was, how I should be more like him. He would drop by every few days - my house was his second home. The moment mom found out he was gay, she told him he wasn't allowed to set foot in our house. She's told me I shouldn't talk to him, but when I said I wasn't flushing years of friendship down the drain because of something so trivial, she backed off. She controls who's allowed in her house, and that's her right. She does not control who I choose to interact with at university and elsewhere. She's expressed her dislike, but since she can't change my mind, she rarely brings it up.

 

I don't like my mother's opinion, but that is one thing I can respect her for - for understanding that she control her property, and she can make rules in her house, but she can't tell others what to do with their lives. She might believe my friend will burn in hell for all eternity because he's gay. BUT. If I told her he was getting married, she would try to discourage me from going to his wedding. She wouldn't try to stop the whole marriage because it's 'wrong'.

 

In my opinion, it's fine to be homophobic; some people can't be convinced otherwise. Just don't force other people to live the way you want to, and DON'T decide to attack them, physically or verbally. Go ahead and dislike it. You have your life. They have theirs.

 

And that's it.

 

(Though, I can't respect anyone who immediately banishes their child for being gay. They don't suddenly stop being a son or daughter. At the very least they deserve support to become self-sufficient, so they can actually get on with their lives.)

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