Marriage Equality and Other MOGAI/Queer Rights

[CrossingStar]

I'm not converting anybody. I'm just saying that's where my beliefs come from.

I wasn't saying you were converting anyone. I'm just saying that Christians in general seem to be of the mindset that everyone should be converted.

[CaptainInsaneway]

Forget it. If you are all going to act this immature, so be it. By stating my opinion, you assume I'm trying to wreck the lives of gays or something. I'm not. I have many lesbian friends. I thought for once I could maybe state my opinion and have people just respect my views instead of trying to make me feel bad for having them. Guess not.

You're calling US immature? You're totally ignoring all of our very valid points and whining like a child because we refuse to accept the fact you want to deny a sizeable portion of population equal rights simply because you "don't like them".

 

Don't you dare use the fact you have gay friends to defend yourself, because that doesn't mean anything. It just makes it even more sickening that you'd deny even your friends equal rights.

 

You said yourself you came in here expecting an argument. Flounce if you want, but don't whine because we weren't going to pet you and tell you that you were ~ever so brave~ for expressing your opinions.

[CrossingStar]

You said yourself you came in here expecting an argument. Flounce if you want, but don't whine because we weren't going to pet you and tell you that you were ~ever so brave~ for expressing your opinions.

Let the Vatican say that! I can see the headline already...*sarcasm*

[ShinyTomato]

Guys, let's stay civil, okay?

 

Some people can't see that words can h

[CrossingStar]

@ShinyTomato

 

Yes. I agree. Let's just move on here.

[TikindiDragon]

I'm pretty sure most of you know my opinions on the matter (if anyone doesn't, just let me know and I'll tell youa ll again ) so I hope you all think that when I say this I'm not trying to silence anyone.

 

But.

 

Is there any chance we can try, for a bit, letting the first person to respond to a comment with a dissenting opinion be the *only* one to respond to that poster? I know we all feel very strongly about this, but I actually don't think we're helping ourselves here by dogpiling on people. A one-on-one discussion can help change minds - while several people posting in sucession pointing out their objections is only going to make a person clam up, feel attacked (because, yes, a load of people posting in disagreement with you does feel like an attack, even if it's not intended that way), and stubbornly cling to their own position while walking away. Many-on-one doesn't work to change hearts and minds, unfortunately. Discussion can be impossible when a person feels they are being shouted down all the time.

[hazeh]

I read something about same sex parents, so I'm going to respond to that because I'm one of the few people on this board that it immediately affects.

 

*waves hand*

 

Hi there, proud child of lesbian parents. I am biologically related to one of them, so I have been with one of them my entire life and with the other since I was 18 months old (I am now 19).

 

I believe I read something along the lines of "children should never have to be raised by two men or two women".

 

Oh, boy, this actually made me smile.

Have to? You know what children shouldn't have to be raised by?

-Abusive parents

-Drug addicts/Alcoholics

-Abusive Step parents

-The State

-Parents/Guardians that don't love them or want them

-Homes that cannot afford to give them proper care

 

Gay or Straight, children shouldn't be in those homes.

On the contrary, children SHOULD be raised by:

 

-People that love and want them

-People that can care for them

-People that encourage and support them for being them

-People that take the best interests of the child before their own

 

My family falls into the second list completely, and does not even brush close to the first list. There is absolutely no excuse why children shouldn't be raised in same-sex households if that household meets the second list above. There is no evidence that same-sex households are in anyway more "damaging" to a child's upbringing any more than a heterosexual household's is. Because the genders of the parents are not in any way related to the quality of that/those person(s) parenting.

 

And that's something that everyone needs to understand and embrace. I don't believe for a SECOND that there is an excuse for any other approach. There is nothing a Father can do for a child's upbringing that a Mother cannot- and this has been a question that has never been answered by the "other" side for me. Explain how a Father and Mother are different and how one cannot serve the same role as the other. But then, we'd just get into stereotypical gender roles.

 

Marriage is not for procreation. Marriage is not for procreation. The definition of marriage has changed so many times throughout the years, it isn't even funny.

Edited November 30, 2012 by Shiny Hazard Sign

[Fuzzbucket]

I'm pretty sure most of you know my opinions on the matter (if anyone doesn't, just let me know and I'll tell you all again ) so I hope you all think that when I say this I'm not trying to silence anyone.

 

But.

 

Is there any chance we can try, for a bit, letting the first person to respond to a comment with a dissenting opinion be the *only* one to respond to that poster? I know we all feel very strongly about this, but I actually don't think we're helping ourselves here by dogpiling on people. A one-on-one discussion can help change minds - while several people posting in sucession pointing out their objections is only going to make a person clam up, feel attacked (because, yes, a load of people posting in disagreement with you does feel like an attack, even if it's not intended that way), and stubbornly cling to their own position while walking away. Many-on-one doesn't work to change hearts and minds, unfortunately. Discussion can be impossible when a person feels they are being shouted down all the time.

Actually - and maybe OT - I can't buy into that. I can - and WILL - buy into being civil - but if a lot of people disagree with a post in this kind of area - that should be something people can see.

 

There are many here feeling directly attacked by some of the views expressed, and they need to feel supported by as many of us as possible. Imagine being Shiny Hazard Sign and seeing some of the posts here. And if I weren't so old and hardened I might have been far more upset by some of the comments in the abortion thread which suggested I was on my way to hell.

 

Just saying "I could not disagree more" and stating your own opinion is well OK with me. As long as it is done nicely (until it gets to the stage that the person disagreed with gets nasty - which can happen...)

 

Not least because the ways of disagreeing, and the reasons, are different.

[hazeh]

Thanks Fuzzbucket! (:

 

I've been standing up for my parents ever since I was a little girl and realized that people tried to be mean to them, and myself because they couldn't wrap their heads around the fact that my parents are wonderful parents. My family was sought out and selected by social workers to adopt the little girl that is now my spunky sister- who had been neglected for the first 8 months of her life by her heterosexual mother, and cast aside by her biological, heterosexual father because she was "sick". Didn't matter to us- that little girl is a great kid, and she makes our family the perfect little unit that families are meant to be. (along with our three dogs and two kitties)

 

I've been told "Of course you support them, you'd support your mom if she married a goat and you'd been raised that way."

Ho boy! I still get a kick out of that one. No, you support your parents because you know that people who judge them for things that need no judgement are wrong. Plain wrong. Again, no evidence to support at all that my parents are bad parents, or that a heterosexual family would be a "better" place for us to be raised. There is no difference.

 

I've been told, when I was in elementary school by a fellow student AND their parent that my moms were going to hell. I've been told that my moms are diseased, perverted, sick, disgusting, evil.

 

Some have repeatedly insisted that it'd be better if my biological father and my mom had gotten married instead. LOL, NO. AHAHAHAHAHA. From all the stuff I've had said, that one is still one of my favorites. Another classic example of how people like to make assumptions and draw claims with little to no information. My biological father was young and scared and didn't want to be a father and didn't want other people knowing he was a father. So my mom raised me, by herself, until I was 18 months old. Forcing them to stay together? That would have ruined my life. I would have parents that didn't love each other at all- in fact probably would have hated each other- and I would have been stuck in Las Vegas until I was 18. EW. I HATE LAS VEGAS. Then both my mom and my biological father would never have met and married the people they were destined to be with the rest of their life and love with all their heart. And that is beyond cruel and insensitive of anyone who thinks I would have been "better off" with a mother and father.

 

'Course, you know, I could have just been aborted and the whole thing would be an non-issue! Take your pick.

 

I would never trade my family in. Ever. There are a lot of kids out there who have unfortunate lives and are stuck with parents and guardians that treat them terribly. I've had quite a few tell me they wish they were a part of my family instead of their's- so much for children "not wanting" to be raised by same-sex parents.

 

 

That's exactly like me saying children should not have to be raised by religious families. Just because I don't share religious views doesn't mean there is any substance to that thought at all, and it would be more than wrong for me to insist that. Two men and two women are just as equally capable of raising a well-rounded, well-adjusted citizen as much as a straight couple-- or, on the other hand, equally as capable of failing as parents as straight couples. There is absolutely no difference.

 

 

edit: oh dear, I shouldn't be allowed to make posts at 3:30 in the morning...

Edited November 30, 2012 by Shiny Hazard Sign

[Fuzzbucket]

For the record and possibly OT - you also support your parents because they earn that from you.

 

Which is why at the moment any hired assassin who would care to help me finish off my mother would be very welcome - please PM....

 

The gender/orientation of one's parents is not what makes them good or bad parents. My mother is straight as a die - and - deserves NOTHING from any of us daughters any more...

 

Shiny - would you trade ? PLEASE ???

[CrossingStar]

Shiny Hazard Sign made very relevant and touching points in her posts above. Nobody should insult people who love each other and are brave enough to be open about it. Period. Full stop.

[danis]

I had been avoiding this thread for sanity's sake. Anytime this topic is brought up, there is always *that* person who has to bring into question a queer persons' ability to raise a child. I was once told by a "godly person" that she had half a mind to kidnap my child and give her to a good, god-fearing, straight couple. Knowing said godly person, I wouldn't have put it past her. I still wake up panicked thinking someone is trying to steal my kid.

 

So naturally, I check this thread to see recent statements saying gays shouldn't be allowed to raise children. That's just a peachy thing to say.

Edited November 30, 2012 by danis

[Fuzzbucket]

I had been avoiding this thread for sanity's sake. Anytime this topic is brought up, there is always *that* person who has to bring into question a queer persons' ability to raise a child. I was once told by "a godly person" that she had half a mind to kidnap my child and give her to a good, god-fearing, straight couple. Knowing said godly person, I wouldn't have put it past her. I still wake up panicked thinking someone is trying to steal my kid.

 

So naturally, I check this thread to see recent statements saying gays shouldn't be allowed to raise children. That's just a peachy thing to say.

Trust me, I know some straight biological parents who shouldn't have been allowed to raise children...

[Shienvien]

Makes me wonder why those people - the ones who claim homosexuals shouldn't raise children - see the orientation of their parents as a factor which'd influence the children at all (assuming they do not believe that seeing gay people can turn other people gay or similar myths).

How would it affect the child differently from, say, living with a mother and her mother (mother and grandmother)? Living with mother and her sister who share a house? With a father who has a housemate? (I've seen notions from the same people that they do not disagree with people of the same sex having a part in raising a child unless they are in relationship.)

Not to mention, it's certainly better than having a single parent - two people usually have more time to deal with the child.

 

 

As for me, I have nothing against homosexuals, although I don't happen to know any face-to-face. No conflict of interest - they're people like any others, and as long as I am respected, they will be, too.

[hazeh]

I had been avoiding this thread for sanity's sake.  Anytime this topic is brought up, there is always *that* person who has to bring into question a queer persons' ability to raise a child.  I was once told by a "godly person" that she had half a mind to kidnap my child and give her to a good, god-fearing, straight couple.  Knowing said godly person, I wouldn't have put it past her.  I still wake up panicked thinking someone is trying to steal my kid.

 

So naturally, I check this thread to see recent statements saying gays shouldn't be allowed to raise children.  That's just a peachy thing to say.

Reminds me of that "underground railroad" type thing that this one crazy pastor was saying they should use to "rescue" kids with homosexual parents.

/snorts

 

My own Uncle threatened to call CPS on my mother when we moved back to Las Vegas when I was young because that state didn't like "her kind" of people. :/

 

Edit: Down Fuzzbucket, down! My mamas!

Edited November 30, 2012 by Shiny Hazard Sign

[KageSora]

Is there any chance we can try, for a bit, letting the first person to respond to a comment with a dissenting opinion be the *only* one to respond to that poster? I know we all feel very strongly about this, but I actually don't think we're helping ourselves here by dogpiling on people. A one-on-one discussion can help change minds - while several people posting in sucession pointing out their objections is only going to make a person clam up, feel attacked (because, yes, a load of people posting in disagreement with you does feel like an attack, even if it's not intended that way), and stubbornly cling to their own position while walking away. Many-on-one doesn't work to change hearts and minds, unfortunately. Discussion can be impossible when a person feels they are being shouted down all the time.

The only problem I see with this is what about when multiple people post at around the same time? It happens, and some people want to respond right away but spend a few minutes thinking of their response before posting it.

 

Would you suggest they all delete their posts because they were ninja'd?

 

Being civil, I can agree to (I try, though I admit I fail from time to time...)--provided that the person I'm disagreeing with doesn't insult me and people I care for. If they start right off being really offensive, then I'm not terribly inclined to be overly civil with them.

[Fuzzbucket]

Reminds me of that "underground railroad" type thing that this one crazy pastor was saying they should use to "rescue" kids with homosexual parents.

/snorts

Hm.

 

Has anyone else seen that EXCELLENT movie "But I'm a Cheerleader" ?

 

It would put any NICE person off sending a kid to one of those places... (it's also very funny, but makes a VERY good case.)

[brairtrainer]

Hm.

 

Has anyone else seen that EXCELLENT movie "But I'm a Cheerleader" ?

 

It would put any NICE person off sending a kid to one of those places... (it's also very funny, but makes a VERY good case.)

Went ahead and just watched it. Overall very funny though I think that there were some things that the movie missed overall, such as the guy in the beginning was not a good kisser. Other than that it was realistic while remaining funny. Honestly I think that it should become a must see in highschool.

[Fuzzbucket]

Went ahead and just watched it. Overall very funny though I think that there were some things that the movie missed overall, such as the guy in the beginning was not a good kisser. Other than that it was realistic while remaining funny. Honestly I think that it should become a must see in highschool.

WELL - an awful lot of jocks of that age are crap kissers. I remember it all too well....

 

Which made it worse for her, poor girl I guess if she had been predisposed to like it, it might have gone better

[brairtrainer]

WELL - an awful lot of jocks of that age are crap kissers. I remember it all too well....

 

Which made it worse for her, poor girl I guess if she had been predisposed to like it, it might have gone better

Honestly watching I thought that everyone around her read into things far too much, and her attitude at the end of the movie, where she wanted them to teach her how to be a proper lesbian almost made me think she wasn't one the whole time, probably just started thinking that way because of the other peoples reactions. because everything she was doing was perfectly normal.

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

Honestly watching I thought that everyone around her read into things far too much, and her attitude at the end of the movie, where she wanted them to teach her how to be a proper lesbian almost made me think she wasn't one the whole time, probably just started thinking that way because of the other peoples reactions. because everything she was doing was perfectly normal.

Well - yes and no. Clearly her parents read far too much in, as did her friends - an din those days - I was called into the head teacher's office once as (in a GIRLS ONLY school) I was seen as being too friendly with another girl. We were best friends. Yes we spent all our time together - and talked about - boys !!!

 

But - a reminder - you do NOT "choose" to be lesbian. And if you recall the opening shots, you will recall what she liked to look at... It wasn't guys...

 

And in those days - well, a teen wanting to get it right - I can buy into it (and so does the lesbian friend who told me to watch it !)

[brairtrainer]

Well - yes and no. Clearly her parents read far too much in, as did her friends - an din those days - I was called into the head teacher's office once as (in a GIRLS ONLY school) I was seen as being too friendly with another girl. We were best friends. Yes we spent all our time together - and talked about - boys !!!

 

But - a reminder - you do NOT "choose" to be lesbian. And if you recall the opening shots, you will recall what she liked to look at... It wasn't guys...

 

And in those days - well, a teen wanting to get it right - I can buy into it (and so does the lesbian friend who told me to watch it !)

Alright thanks for clearing that up for me Fuzz, I know people don't choose, but I do know that these days it isn't uncommon for older people to come out after being married and I didn't know if there was also some reverse, people being told they were homosexual, not conforming to 'theropy' and then after living as if they were realized they were bi/straight/asexual etc.

 

Some of her manorisms just seemed off, and the way that she acted about it until the end, of course I wasn't around then and the more common thing where I come from is that your friends support you but if your parents don't everyone keeps quiet for your safety/convinece

[Fuzzbucket]

Alright thanks for clearing that up for me Fuzz, I know people don't choose, but I do know that these days it isn't uncommon for older people to come out after being married and I didn't know if there was also some reverse, people being told they were homosexual, not conforming to 'theropy' and then after living as if they were realized they were bi/straight/asexual etc.

 

Some of her manorisms just seemed off, and the way that she acted about it until the end, of course I wasn't around then and the more common thing where I come from is that your friends support you but if your parents don't everyone keeps quiet for your safety/convinece

Oh yes. But all the gay men I know who DID marry (I come from the days when it was ILLEGAL and you could be sent to jail for anything active in the way of gay sex - even in private) did so knowing they were gay and either hoping to cover it up and stay out of jail (when I was at Uni, I got any number of free dinners by being the token girl friend who was introduced to the parents as a cover* !) or - because of the way society was - were hoping to convert themselves, or at least live in a way that was alien to them. It never worked.

 

I actually came back to say - though - that part of the POINT of that part at the end was that all through the camp. she was being taught how to be a "proper straight girl" so this was something of a counterweight - you have to learn one, it seems, so you "have to" learn the other !!! A bit of a spoof, I thought. Also the irony was that it took being sent to that camp for her to realise she was lesbian - all the ordinary things that were natural to her and that she was supposed to stop doing. I'm sure she would have realised anyway - but that really hastened it.

 

 

* I was very sad for them, and in a way didn't approve of their lack of honesty - but when a friend could go to jail for loving another man - I was prepared to bite my tongue and help them avoid that.

Edited December 1, 2012 by fuzzbucket

[brairtrainer]

Oh yes. But all the gay men I know who DID marry (I come from the days when it was ILLEGAL and you could be sent to jail for anything active in the way of gay sex - even in private) did so knowing they were gay and either hoping to cover it up and stay out of jail (when I was at Uni, I got any number of free dinners by being the token girl friend who was introduced to the parents as a cover* !) or - because of the way society was - were hoping to convert themselves, or at least live in a way that was alien to them. It never worked.

 

I actually came back to say - though - that part of the POINT of that part at the end was that all through the camp. she was being taught how to be a "proper straight girl" so this was something of a counterweight - you have to learn one, it seems, so you "have to" learn the other !!! A bit of a spoof, I thought. Also the irony was that it took being sent to that camp for her to realise she was lesbian - all the ordinary things that were natural to her and that she was supposed to stop doing. I'm sure she would have realised anyway - but that really hastened it.

 

 

* I was very sad for them, and in a way didn't approve of their lack of honesty - but when a friend could go to jail for loving another man - I was prepared to bite my tongue and help them avoid that.

Alright thanks for helping my understanding of it fuzz

 

I stick by what I said earlier, it should be a must see for highschoolers though I could just see the protests if a teacher showed it to the class

[Fuzzbucket]

Alright thanks for helping my understanding of it fuzz

 

I stick by what I said earlier, it should be a must see for highschoolers though I could just see the protests if a teacher showed it to the class

And the fact that there WOULD be a fuss is so very scary How harmless can you be ?