Marriage Equality and Other MOGAI/Queer Rights

[Oakash]

I'm a christian, and I am straight. My views on Gay Marriage/rights is that there shouldn't be any question about it, they should have the same amount of rights and be allowed to marry. It's stupid how this is still an issue. Personally, I think that kissing a girl sounds gross and wrong, but I don't care if lesbians kiss, or if two gay guys kiss. I just think its wrong for me. I suppose just like a lesbian doesn't like the thought of kissing a guy.

 

No matter what though, this is America, land of the FREE. Religion shouldn't have anything to do with the government, because we weren't set up as a only christian nation, America is supposed to be for freedom for all religions. And yes, I think God did make gay people gay. I don't know why he did, but I believe that he loves them the same amount he loves anyone.

[Kestra15]

The clitoris is stimulated if you have sex with really fat guys

...really?

 

I might start pointing that out to the ladies.

[Rowiehz]

Also, what's your opinion of people who are intersexed, who have both male and female parts, or an unusual chromosome set up like XXY

 

On a purely anatomical level, what about the fact that neither the clitoris nor the prostate is directly stimulated/stimulated at all in heterosexual sex, when both are incredibly sensitive?

 

Last question, I swear! What about couples who are infertile, sterile, or the wife is allergic to the husband's sperm?

 

I promise I'm not offended! I'm just trying to get a feel for the position you hold is all.

Thanks for the information you've shared! Although I don't completely understand everything a 100% yet, sadly. English is not my main language, so please understand... But I understand most of it!

 

As for people who are intersexed, I think they should just be what they feel they truly are from the inside. I don't think I have much more to say about that. I don't have male parts, but in the past I did think that perhaps on the inside I was more male than female and thought often enough of a future as a male. Now however, it's not like that anymore. Considering my female side really shows now, it just took some time?

 

But in general, they are just people like you and me.

 

Nature- how we were created as an individual, be it by God or whatever- I like to think of it as a basis. It holds guidelines, but they can be expanded to how you see fitting. But it does not mean you have to remain that way.

 

I work in a hospital and have seen many... unnusual things with humans. So I'm really not the person to say someone is different. You are created the way you are. And that's just fine the way it is.

 

And the next question is a bit... strange, if I may openly say so? It feels a little strange to answer something like this because I don't know what to say about this. I would maybe say something about that in relation with the relationship with my boyfriend, but.. I think that's WAY too personal for a forum post, haha.

 

And to answer the last question; What about them? Are the not the same as we are? I think I might be too open here, but I suffer from vaginismus and I believe there are so many ways to love.

 

I'm not sure if I made you think that I only think in the biological way? I dont completely. Like said, I take nature as a basis and you develop your own world and life from it. Be it straight, bi or homosexual. Transgender, hermaphrodite, fertile, infertile, handicapped, mentally disabled.

 

It's YOUR life. You should never let people make you believe otherwise.

 

I hope this all summed it up a bit because I'm not always the best person at explaining ):

[prairiecrow]

And to answer the last question; What about them? Are the not the same as we are? I think I might be too open here, but I suffer from vaginismus and I believe there are so many ways to love.

I too suffer from that condition, and yes, I agree that there are many ways to express love sexually -- no matter whether you're in a straight relationship or a gay relationship.

 

I always get a sort of bitter chuckle out of fundamentalists of any stripe who focus on certain types of sexual contact as proof that gay relationships are UNNATURAL and EVIL. Um, hello? Not all gay people do any given thing, and many straight couples do it as well, so where is the line to be drawn?

[CrossingStar]

I always get a sort of bitter chuckle out of fundamentalists of any stripe who focus on certain types of sexual contact as proof that gay relationships are UNNATURAL and EVIL. Um, hello? Not all gay people do any given thing, and many straight couples do it as well, so where is the line to be drawn?

This. It illustrates the fact that those discontents will always be disappointed when they say "there's only one way to do things."

[binicorn]

Sadly, what I seem to notice is this:

 

The loudest group is the "God hates gays, you're horrible monsters you stupid abominations you will burn and I will love watching you burn in Hell" group. They're a very vocal group.

 

The second loudest is the "I don't hate you for being gay, but just so you know it's a perversion of the way you were designed and you shouldn't get married because it's wrong and I think you really need to be saved from your choice" group. They're... Honestly not much better.

 

The third group tends to be the "I personally think it's wrong, but I'm not going to force my views on you, just don't give me the details of what you do in the bedroom" group. This group I think really needs to speak up more, to make themselves heard more.

 

The quietest one tends to be the "I'm not gay, but I don't personally believe it's a sin since God made you that way--He wouldn't make you gay and then not want you treated the same way as those of us who He didn't make gay!" group. This is the group I think REALLY needs to make their voices heard, they get overlooked and forgotten and many people don't even realize there ARE Christians who don't feel it's a sin to be gay since that's how you were made.

 

There's a 5th group too that's important to remember-- there are Christians who are actually gay. My fiancee is both a lesbian and a Christian, and I think a lot of people forget that that's possible. She gets a lot of people who don't believe she's actually a lesbian, and even people who accuse her of being homophobic because she's Christian and they assume she's straight.

[KageSora]

There's a 5th group too that's important to remember-- there are Christians who are actually gay. My fiancee is both a lesbian and a Christian, and I think a lot of people forget that that's possible. She gets a lot of people who don't believe she's actually a lesbian, and even people who accuse her of being homophobic because she's Christian and they assume she's straight.

And that's what I get for posting when my brain was half-dead.

 

But my forgetting is a great example of WHY that group especially needs to make their voices loudly heard. I know gay Christians exist, but they're a group so little heard from it's easy to forget they exist, which is sad...

 

 

But that group is kind of two groups, really. There's the gay Christians who "suffer from same-sex attractions" and treat it like a disease, and there's the gay Christians who don't think it's wrong of them to be gay because God made them that way.

[Moonlight]

So I am just joining and this is what I have to say. My whole family is Catholic, even though we only go to church when we have we still are. My family supports gay married 100%. I hate how people look down at people who are gay. I mean think about it. Does being gay REALLY affect how you act or talk or look. Really and truely does it matter if they are gay or not. It just makes me really made.

 

 

[Moonbeam22]

I'll probably get a lot of angry replies, but I think a new opinion can be brought in...

 

I am Catholic, straight, and have nothing against gay people. However, should they get legally married? No. Should they be able to create life? No. Marriage was created for a man and a woman to come together to create a family. Two men or two women should not be able to do that. Humans are created with sexual reproduction organs made for a man and a woman. Therefor, only a man and a woman should be able to create life.

 

Scream at me all you want, but nothing will change my opinion. Carry on.

[Walker]

I'll probably get a lot of angry replies, but I think a new opinion can be brought in...

 

I am Catholic, straight, and have nothing against gay people. However, should they get legally married? No. Should they be able to create life? No. Marriage was created for a man and a woman to come together to create a family. Two men or two women should not be able to do that. Humans are created with sexual reproduction organs made for a man and a woman. Therefor, only a man and a woman should be able to create life.

 

Scream at me all you want, but nothing will change my opinion. Carry on.

Most (not saying all, because some do wish for a religious union, but...) queer individuals don't want that definition of marriage, which is more religious than legal. I have to focus on your use of legally married. Approaching it from the legal perspective, we want:

 

1. Not to be turned away from our partner's deathbed

2. To have the right to inherit

3. To have the right to tax breaks offered to straight couples

 

I won't get into adoption, because I have a fair guess you wouldn't agree with that.

 

But, as far as basic rights go, we should at least be allowed to be by our partner's side when they're dying. That's what you deny queer individuals when you say no to legal gay marriage. That's what concerns me most. Perhaps consider supporting legal unions that allow a gay individual those three basic rights? I'm not asking you to completely compromise your belief system by far. And I will always wish the world will be open to more, but don't deny them everything when your quibble is only with one part of the whole: namely, parenting.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Walker

[KageSora]

I'll probably get a lot of angry replies, but I think a new opinion can be brought in...

 

I am Catholic, straight, and have nothing against gay people. However, should they get legally married? No. Should they be able to create life? No. Marriage was created for a man and a woman to come together to create a family. Two men or two women should not be able to do that. Humans are created with sexual reproduction organs made for a man and a woman. Therefor, only a man and a woman should be able to create life.

 

Scream at me all you want, but nothing will change my opinion. Carry on.

So, because your God created them the way they are, they don't deserve the same legal benefits that you heterosexual people have? I'm sorry, but saying they don't deserve legal equality IS the same thing as having something against them--you don't believe they are legally equal to you.

 

Marriage is not a religious institution. Holy Matrimony is. Marriage is a legal institution--one that existed among peoples who had no idea that your god supposedly exists, far before Christianity came to be. And before you say anything about "I know nothing of your religion" or anything--I was raised Roman Catholic, so I'm not totally clueless.

 

And, just sayin', but that came of as really offensive. You basically just said my parents shouldn't be married because my mom is infertile (I'm adopted). Because they can't create life. Thanks for that.

 

Also, thanks for saying my grandparents shouldn't be married--because my grandmother is no longer able to bear children, so they can't create life.

 

 

Also, thanks for saying I should never get married even if it's to somebody of the opposite sex because I refuse to have kids--so I will not be creating life.

[PointOfOrigin]

Why people get so worked up over another person's opinion is beyond me.

Because opinions of people like you are stopping them from living their life the way they want and deserve.

[Walker]

That still doesn't change my opinion of it. Just because my beliefs are rooted to my religion doesn't make them invalid from a legal standpoint. I'm not trying to offend anybody, but yes, gays should not raise families. No child (again, in MY OPINION) should have to grow up with two fathers or mothers. Why people get so worked up over another person's opinion is beyond me.

Mmmm, the reason for legal unions is more than having children. My other post got lost on the bottom of the other page but...

 

Lots of us get together for love, not for children. When we're getting married, we're thinking we want to be for them until they die. We're not thinking we're going to achieve something biologically impossible.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Walker

[CrossingStar]

That still doesn't change my opinion of it. Just because my beliefs are rooted to my religion doesn't make them invalid from a legal standpoint. I'm not trying to offend anybody, but yes, gays should not raise families. No child (again, in MY OPINION) should have to grow up with two fathers or mothers. Why people get so worked up over another person's opinion is beyond me.

I understand that this is your opinion, but it really is offensive.

 

No child (again, in MY OPINION) should have to grow up with two fathers or mothers.

 

The above quote is highly offensive! You make it sound like growing up with gay parents is a curse or 'bad' in some way.

 

Yes, I understand that you do not agree with me, especially since you are Christian and I'm Pagan. That is your legal and natural right. But the wording you chose really makes me upset.

[binicorn]

I'm not stopping them from doing anything. I am stating my beliefs, and that is that.

You personally may not be stopping us from doing anything, but opinions like yours are the reason that me and so many other people are denied basic legal rights.

[PointOfOrigin]

I'm not stopping them from doing anything. I am stating my beliefs, and that is that.

And you stated that they shouldn't get married. According to that, when gay marriage comes to vote in the state you live you will probably vote against it. That is stopping them from getting rights other people have.

[binicorn]

Again, why do people get so offended over a stranger's opinion? I can never speak my mind without being attacked. That's what I don't understand about society...

You're not being attacked, people are disagreeing with you. Just because you're entitled to your own opinion doesn't mean that other people can't criticize it, especially when your opinion is oppressive to others.

[CaptainInsaneway]

I'm not stopping them from doing anything. I am stating my beliefs, and that is that.

Yes you are. People with these opinions hold the power to take away the rights of the LGBT community because they are the voters. They are part of the masses who hold the fate of same-sex marriage in their hands.

 

Your beliefs are, regardless of your defence, ultimately damaging because those beliefs will be translated into a voice, a vote, an opinion that must be heard and acknowledged. Fate hangs in the balance and the outcome is entirely dependant upon just how many people can swallow their distaste for the gay community to allow them to have equal rights.

 

You cannot say "I have nothing against people but I don't want to give them equal rights". The viewpoints cancel each other out. If you truly think the union of two people of the same sex is abhorrent enough to exclude them from the rights afforded to many people then say so. Don't claim to be "okay with the gay" if you're not.

 

Just my two cents.

Edited November 29, 2012 by CaptainInsaneway

[binicorn]

So? This is a debate thread. I figured people would expect some people to have different views.

Exactly. It's a DEBATE thread. So I really don't understand why you're getting so upset that people are disagreeing with you.

[PointOfOrigin]

So? This is a debate thread. I figured people would expect some people to have different views.

People having different views is a given. You and me disagree on this matter. And that's okay. I was just proving to you that your opinion does matter and that you are affecting the quality of their lives.

[ShinyTomato]

Again, why do people get so offended over a stranger's opinion? I can never speak my mind without being attacked. That's what I don't understand about society...

Because you seem to be suggesting that my children should be taken away from me, that your religion is more important than mine, and that my family is somehow less than the abusive families I see every day because I'm in an eleven year marriage with a woman.

 

That kind of opinion is not unlike the idea I hear all too often that I should be sterilised because most Christian denominations think Romani condemned to hell for their race.

Edited November 29, 2012 by ShinyTomato

[CaptainInsaneway]

Oh, so I'm a bad person now? I can't have a belief and express it without it being completely wrong? I understand that people do agree with it, so maybe people need to understand that people oppose it.

Wait, where were you accused of being a bad person?

[Walker]

Alright, all I can say is... forget the children and religion thing for a moment.

 

Imagine your best friend was in the hospital and dying. You really wanted to see them and they kept asking for you, but their parents or closing living relative didn't like you and said you couldn't so the hospital staff keep turning you away.

 

... That's what it's about. That right there. That's what they do to us.

 

We want to be there at their bedside. That's what we want, and even that little would be a great blessing. Consider supporting civil unions for that reason. A lot of them don't give the full rights of a marriage (such as the ability to adopt), but it offers that much.

 

I support much more than civil unions myself, but even that little would support you could give would bless a thousand people's lives. It would alleviate a thousand people's griefs.

 

So, think about it is all. Religion and children have nothing to do with having someone important to you at your bedside.

 

You're no bad person by far. I know what it is to be Christain, to think that morally wrong. I was raised that way until I changed. Religion does a lot of good, but part of Christainity is doing good for others. And letting someone have comfort on their deathbed is a good thing.

[CrossingStar]

that your religion is more important than mine, and that my family is somehow less

 

This. Right here. It's what many Christians believe, because goodness knows that it's not enough to 'love thy neighbor,' one just has to convert them as well.

 

That kind of opinion is not unlike the idea I hear all too often that I should be sterilised because most Christians think Romani condemned to hell for their race.

 

Same for Pagans, Heathens, Druids and Wiccans.

[binicorn]

Forget it. If you are all going to act this immature, so be it. By stating my opinion, you assume I'm trying to wreck the lives of gays or something. I'm not. I have many lesbian friends. I thought for once I could maybe state my opinion and have people just respect my views instead of trying to make me feel bad for having them. Guess not.

I think that considering that your opinion is very oppressive, everyone on here has behaved very maturely towards you. If you can't handle debate, don't come onto a debate thread and post an opinion that you know will offend people.