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MURDERcomplexx

Marriage Equality and Other MOGAI/Queer Rights

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It's possible to understand something and still disagree with it.

This.

 

Knowing both sides of an argument makes you educated. Being able to understand both sides also makes you educated.

 

I understand why my Christian friends don't like the idea of gay marriage. I understand why my parents don't like it.

 

But guess what, if I choose to marry a woman I want that right. For me, a relationship isn't about sex or procreating. Sex is nice, but hardly my priority. My priority is having a companion that I feel comfortable around. Someone who makes me want to be a better person. Someone who loves me for me.

 

Marriage is not just a religious thing anymore. People seem to forget that. Marriage is secular.

 

Atheists can get married. They don't believe in any form of deity. Yet no one pitches a fit that they can get married.

 

Marriage =/= Matrimony. Marriage =/= Religion. Marriage is secular in today's society, and to deny one group of people that basic right in a secular society is completely and utterly wrong. Because, the last time I checked, the government was not run by any religion.

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I apologize for the very late response to this. I have no good excuse sad.gif.

 

As I said, I want to continue supporting gay rights, but the lack of condemning the acts of the idiots in the movement is not helping me to stay that way.  The silence leads me to wonder if the majority of the movement approves of the attacks.  If they don't, they need to speak up (if they already are, louder!)!

 

If they start doing that, it would help a lot to getting more support for the movement (and keeping the ones that already do).

 

On another matter, I am surprised no one here has commented on the donation Amazon made to help the keep the same-sex marriage law in Washinton state (unless I missed it, somehow).  I'd post link about it, but the only one I have about it right now is to theBlaze...and some of the comments in there are nasty!

 

Edit:  OK, did a quick google and found a version of the story on Reuters:  http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/28/...E86R01320120728

I guess my response to this is that if the stories you've related are true, that those individuals are jerks and (in one case) possibly an attempted murderer. What I've been able to find in a quick google suggests that the stories are either blown out of proportion or are far more complex than you've presented them. They are isolated incidents rather than an ongoing example of activism (looking at the hotel case in particular).

 

What does the gay community need to do to appease you? What action should be taken against the people involved in these cases that would be an appropriate 'apology'?

Edited by WereJace

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On another matter, I am surprised no one here has commented on the donation Amazon made to help the keep the same-sex marriage law in Washinton state (unless I missed it, somehow). I'd post link about it, but the only one I have about it right now is to theBlaze...and some of the comments in there are nasty!

 

Edit: OK, did a quick google and found a version of the story on Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/28/...E86R01320120728

WAY TO GO AMAZON !

 

I shall go BUY something there smile.gif

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WAY TO GO AMAZON !

 

I shall go BUY something there smile.gif

So why is it good when one company donates to a cause you like, but bad when another company donates to the opposite cause?

 

I'm sorry, but I just can't wrap my head around that.

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So why is it good when one company donates to a cause you like, but bad when another company donates to the opposite cause?

 

I'm sorry, but I just can't wrap my head around that.

My issue with Chick-fil-A is that, while they're standing by their morals, if they've been making donations to anti-gay movements they're essentially trying to help prevent the GBLT community from gaining basic civil rights.

 

People can donate to whatever cause they like, but when it's a cause that denies people basic civil rights, it should upset people.

 

Basic civil rights should not be controversial.

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So why is it good when one company donates to a cause you like, but bad when another company donates to the opposite cause?

 

I'm sorry, but I just can't wrap my head around that.

Amazon is giving to freedom of choice, as much as anything. I believe in freedom of choice, myself. So yes. A donation to any cause that fights discrimination of any kind is a WAY TO GO for me. Equal rights for ALL.

 

That even applies to choices I don't myself feel good about, as long as they harm no-one.

 

(I see Kila is saying much the same, as I type.)

Edited by fuzzbucket

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I'm not saying I disagree with Amazon donating to pro-equal rights causes, in fact I'm glad they did.

 

However, chick-fil-a donating to a cause that they fully /believe/ is right is not something I disagree with either. Personally, I wish they hadn't. It's not cool to deny equal rights to a minority. However, they completely believe that what they are doing is right.

 

Edit: I'm sorry, this makes no sense. My brain is being stupid today.

Edited by kiffren

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I'm not saying I disagree with Amazon donating to pro-equal rights causes, in fact I'm glad they did.

 

However, chick-fil-a donating to a cause that they fully /believe/ is right is not something I disagree with either. Personally, I wish they hadn't. It's not cool to deny equal rights to a minority. However, they completely believe that what they are doing is right.

What I object to is not "giving to something YOU FEEL IS RIGHT."

 

It is giving to a campaign for denying basic rights to others that I object to. I cannot believe that THAT is OK. Believing gay marriage is fundamentally wrong is one thing. Trying to impose that belief on others is quite another. IF (which I DO NOT) I believed it was wrong, I still wouldn't be campaigning to impose my belief on those gays who want to get married. Because it does NOT affect me in any way, and it DOES affect them. If I felt very strongly, I guess I would still be believing they weren't married - but that isn't the same thing as preventing them doing the deed.

 

Just like some churches refuse to believe in divorce, birth control and the rest... They shouldn't stop the rest of us doing what we believe in, just as those of us who do not subscribe to their beliefs won't make them use contraception or get divorced.

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I'm sorry, I'm definitely playing devil's advocate here.

 

But how is imposing your belief that we deserve to be allowed to marry, right? It's your belief, it's not theirs. From their side it will feel as if someone who they feel is sinning is trying to get that to be legal. It does effect them, it goes against exactly what they believe to be wrong. They feel as if they have to attempt to "save" those who are sinning.

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So why is it good when one company donates to a cause you like, but bad when another company donates to the opposite cause?

 

I'm sorry, but I just can't wrap my head around that.

Well...yeah. That's kinda a natural consequence of having opinions.

 

The head of cfa can believe whatever, there's been enough talk about that. The company is legally entitled to use their profits however they want, too. The point of the boycott is basically "I'm not going to support something that supports something I don't support." supportception So with amazon, it's a company (general) I like, so I'm going to support it.

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I guess my response to this is that if the stories you've related are true, that those individuals are jerks and (in one case) possibly an attempted murderer.  What I've been able to find in a quick google suggests that the stories are either blown out of proportion or are far more complex than you've presented them.  They are isolated incidents rather than an ongoing example of activism (looking at the hotel case in particular). 

 

What does the gay community need to do to appease you?  What action should be taken against the people involved in these cases that would be an appropriate 'apology'?

I already mentioned what I need in my last post: for the gay community to publically condeem those acts ('we do not condone violent acts against those that do not support our cause', as an example).

 

For isolated or not, those acts still have an impact on the image of the gay rights movement as a whole. There will always be extremists, but it's up to the good majority to stand up and say 'those guys do not represent us as a whole'.

Edited by Slaskia

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How about everyone else? I wanna know if they would believe me.

If you said you were, gay I would believe you.

 

I have gay friends, but I only believe marriage is between one man and one woman. Take a man that has two or however many wives he wants, why get married at all, does not make sense to me. To me that is just sleeping with many partners is all it is. Same thing with people who are not married that have multiple partners. It does not matter how you look at it, smile.gif

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Take a man that has two or however many wives he wants, why get married at all, does not make sense to me.

 

Because I love my wives and they love me and we wanted to make a permanent commitment to one another as one spirit, in love and fidelity, and share our lives with one another, as long as we live.

 

Why did you get married?

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Because I love my wives and they love me and we wanted to make a permanent commitment to one another as one spirit, in love and fidelity, and share our lives with one another, as long as we live.

 

Why did you get married?

FIDELITY

 

Hebrews 13:4 ESV / 29 helpful votes

 

Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.

 

MARITAL FIDELITY

 

Most people expect marriage mates to be sexually faithful to each other. This view of marital fidelity agrees with the bible, which says: “Let marriage be honorable among all, and the marriage bed be without defilement.

 

I got married to one man, with no other wives for a healthy, loving, and lifelong relationship as well as Fidelity

 

How can anyone be married to more than one woman and say they have fidelity in the marriage. when a person sleeps with another so called wife, that is infidelity to me. That is being unfaithful to the first wife and you have defiled her plain and simple to me.

 

But hey, as long as you and yours are happy, I am happy for you.

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Don't argue with me it's useless. I've seen the other sides point.

I've been on both sides of the issue. I used to be conservative, kind of religious, and a homophobe (well, not strongly, more like "Gay people make me uncomfortable, my religion teaches me they're wrong and going to Hell..." but not outright hating them or anything, and I was too clueless to know much about the gay rights stuff at the time.)

 

But then my best friend came out to me, and I started thinking for myself instead of just following what I was taught. And I realized, hey, gays are just like everybody else--they're human, there are good gays and bad gays, rich and poor, old and young, etc. The only thing that's different between them and non-gays is that they like people of the same sex.

 

And when I realized that, I started learning more about the gay rights stuff, and realized that this was wrong--they're human, and they deserve the same rights as other humans. Anything else is cruel and wrong, IMO.

 

At comic con, there were "christians" out protesting against gays. Protesting against everything, I think. I'm going to hell, according to them.

Well, then, I'll see you there, don't worry, there'll be good company and we'll have a party. All my friends'll be going, too.

 

I'm sorry, I'm definitely playing devil's advocate here.

 

But how is imposing your belief that we deserve to be allowed to marry, right? It's your belief, it's not theirs. From their side it will feel as if someone who they feel is sinning is trying to get that to be legal. It does effect them, it goes against exactly what they believe to be wrong. They feel as if they have to attempt to "save" those who are sinning.

I view it as not a big deal because it's not like straight marriage is going to be outlawed and they will HAVE to marry somebody of the same sex. Or that their churches will be forced to hold ceremonies for gay couples.

 

I mean, a lot of people believe it's a mortal sin to not believe in God and accept Jesus as their savior--but it's not illegal to be a non-Christian. I view gay rights as the same thing--they don't have to like it or support it, but it should not be illegal because it does about as much harm as rejecting their religion does, IMO.

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I already mentioned what I need in my last post: for the gay community to publically condeem those acts ('we do not condone violent acts against those that do not support our cause', as an example).

 

For isolated or not, those acts still have an impact on the image of the gay rights movement as a whole. There will always be extremists, but it's up to the good majority to stand up and say 'those guys do not represent us as a whole'.

In the same vein, would it be possible to get an apology from the heterosexual community for the wrongs straight people have committed against the gay community? Individually, per incident?

 

I don't really know what to tell you. When a wrong has been done there usually is an outcry and apology, in my experience. I'm not sure what you're expecting. Who should apologize, aside from the wrongdoers? Who should decry their actions, aside from those directly associated with them? GLAAD? Lady GaGa?

 

Why do a small handful of poorly defined incidents mean the majority of the community, who are not jerks and lawbreakers, do not deserve equal rights?

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I view it as not a big deal because it's not like straight marriage is going to be outlawed and they will HAVE to marry somebody of the same sex. Or that their churches will be forced to hold ceremonies for gay couples.

 

I mean, a lot of people believe it's a mortal sin to not believe in God and accept Jesus as their savior--but it's not illegal to be a non-Christian. I view gay rights as the same thing--they don't have to like it or support it, but it should not be illegal because it does about as much harm as rejecting their religion does, IMO.

Kage pretty much said what I was going to say.

 

I mean, if it were illegal to be a Christian, let along a straight one (gay Christians exist, too D:), a lot of people would be in jail. Or killed.

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In the same vein, would it be possible to get an apology from the heterosexual community for the wrongs straight people have committed against the gay community? Individually, per incident?

 

I don't really know what to tell you. When a wrong has been done there usually is an outcry and apology, in my experience. I'm not sure what you're expecting. Who should apologize, aside from the wrongdoers? Who should decry their actions, aside from those directly associated with them? GLAAD? Lady GaGa?

 

Why do a small handful of poorly defined incidents mean the majority of the community, who are not jerks and lawbreakers, do not deserve equal rights?

I don't know, tbh, as both 'sides' seem to be decentrialized and any actual groups seem to have their own goals and agendas. So I guess a public condoning/apology type thing would be unrealistic, as there's no real 'leaders' to step forward to do these things.

 

Perhaps what would be better is doing acts of a positive nature to counter the negative. Religious groups go around helping the homeless, rebuilding communities and whatnot: why not gays organize and do similiar things? Show folks that homosexuals are human too and not the 'weird, sexual deviants' they tend to be stereotyped as.

 

Remember, when going for a goal like equal rights, image is important. Getting the media in general to cover such positive events, however, would be difficult (as it's the bad stuff that tends to get the ratings) I admit....

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FIDELITY

 

Hebrews 13:4 ESV / 29 helpful votes

 

Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.

 

MARITAL FIDELITY

 

Most people expect marriage mates to be sexually faithful to each other. This view of marital fidelity agrees with the bible, which says: “Let marriage be honorable among all, and the marriage bed be without defilement.

 

I got married to one man, with no other wives for a healthy, loving, and lifelong relationship as well as Fidelity

 

How can anyone be married to more than one woman and say they have fidelity in the marriage. when a person sleeps with another so called wife, that is infidelity to me. That is being unfaithful to the first wife and you have defiled her plain and simple to me.

 

But hey, as long as you and yours are happy, I am happy for you.

greylight asked me this below, and then talks about FIDELITY.

 

Because I love my wives and they love me and we wanted to make a permanent commitment to one another as one spirit, in love and fidelity, and share our lives with one another, as long as we live.

 

Why did you get married?

 

I noticed no one bothered quoting me on Fidelity. Fidelity, does not mean sleeping with others.

 

I am just wondering how many agree about the Fidelity part of it, or if anyone is going to try and justify FIDELITY, sleeping with more than one partner, smile.gif

Edited by ~Kat~

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I'm sorry, but where did it say that it was impossible for fidelity to happen between multiple partners? In greylight's case, all three of them are enjoying an equal, loving, faithful commitment to each other. There is not one over the other, they are all three sharing a bed and including all three in their loving marriage. Just because you personally couldn't do that, doesn't mean other people are incapable of it.

 

Fidelity means being faithful. In greylight's case, all three of them are being faithful to each other. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that.

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I noticed no one bothered quoting me on Fidelity. Fidelity, does not mean sleeping with others.

 

I am just wondering how many agree about the Fidelity part of it, or if anyone is going to try and justify FIDELITY, sleeping with more than one partner,  smile.gif

I suppose it depends on how you view fidelity. I personally don't think it's infidelity to sleep with more than one person provided that all persons involved are aware of what is happening and are consenting to the multiple partners. So, suppose you have a happy, respectful, mutually enjoyed three-way relationship, and the three of you sleep together. I wouldn't view that as infidelity because all three people are happy with the relationship, consent to having multiple people involved, and agree on the persons involved.

 

I'd view it as wrong if you were sneaking around and sleeping with other people on the side, though.

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or if anyone is going to try and justify FIDELITY, sleeping with more than one partner, smile.gif

 

I will, I was just distracted between putting the little one to bed and listening to Nin and Aisha argue over which one is the "first" wife. I'm supposed to ask you how to determine which wife I'm defiling.

 

Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.

 

Agreed -- please define adultery -- because God has, in Scripture, told Hosea to take a second wife, Gomer and her friend who is "beloved" to her represent the division between Israel and Judah. He also told David he "gave" him multiple wives. In your mind, is God telling people to be immoral or adulterous?

 

Another example is Joash --

 

And Joash did that which was right in the sight of YHVH all the days of Jehoiada the priest.

And Jehoiada took for Joash two wives; and Joash begat sons and daughters. (2 Chronicles 24:1-3. )

 

Most people expect marriage mates to be sexually faithful to each other

 

As do my wives.

 

How can anyone be married to more than one woman and say they have fidelity in the marriage. when a person sleeps with another so called wife, that is infidelity to me. That is being unfaithful to the first wife and you have defiled her plain and simple to me.

 

So how do you determine who the first wife is?

 

Let me put it this way -- marriage math

 

In a monogamous marriage, the point is 1 + 1 = 1, yes?

 

Likewise in my marriage the point is 1 + 1 + 1 = 1.

 

None of us would be complete without the other two. Aisha wouldn't be complete without Nin and I, Nin wouldn't be complete without Aisha and I, and I wouldn't be complete without Aisha and Nin.

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I am just wondering how many agree about the Fidelity part of it, or if anyone is going to try and justify FIDELITY, sleeping with more than one partner, smile.gif

 

If you're trying to argue that polygamy shouldn't be encouraged, then it's better to argue about the distribution of the sexes in relationships.

 

Lets use China as an example. In China, due to the one child policy and sex specific abortions, the ratio of males to females is about 1.2 for their population that is 15 or under. A lot of men aren't going find someone in life. China outlawed polygamy in 1953. It'd be even worse if polygamy was encouraged.

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Might I suggest if it doesn't already exist that there be a polygamy thread made? Because it seems that while this is a very interesting debate, it's not about gay marriage/rights. xd.png

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