Posted July 30, 2012 The last thing anyone needs is more religion. Also, you seem to be under some sort of impression that we must be neutral if we've looked at all sides of an argument. It's entirely possible to look at all sides, and choose one. Nope, I just prefer neutrality over getting bashed by one side. I get bashed by both. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 30, 2012 Also, you seem to be under some sort of impression that we must be neutral if we've looked at all sides of an argument. It's entirely possible to look at all sides, and choose one. If you look at both and understand both your bound to go neutral. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 30, 2012 If you look at both and understand both your bound to go neutral. It's possible to understand something and still disagree with it. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 30, 2012 Wantdew, can you please not double post? Just edit the previous post if you want to add something to it. As for being neutral, that's not the case. I understand where the "other side" is coming from. I get their stance, I really do. However, I do not believe in treating any group of people as worth less than anyone else. I am not neutral even though I understand both sides. Same thing goes with abortion. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 30, 2012 (edited) My question is after all I've said against gays would you all truly believe me? This isn't spam because no one has efficiently answered my question. Well besides Alse... Yes. But I would wonder why you hated your own sexuality enough to hate other gays for it as well. And I would STRONGLY suggest you change your church (not religion, church !) I would also suspect you had been taught that you were hateful by a less than Christian minister. There are far too many of those. ETA I was AFK for a few minutes and you cross posted. I would now say this of your friend instead and suggest he contact Gene Robinson, poor guy. Edited July 30, 2012 by fuzzbucket Share this post Link to post
Posted July 30, 2012 If you look at both and understand both your bound to go neutral. Not true, I understand that many people oppose gay marriage because their religion says so, and they honestly feel that being gay is unnatural. That does not mean I am neutral. I cannot be, despite the fact that I fully comprehend that yes, some people are scared of me because I am gay. My question is after all I've said against gays would you all truly believe me? This isn't spam because no one has efficiently answered my question. Of course, my own wife was convinced for a long time that she was evil and bad because of her sexuality -- enough to let those people who believe being gay is wrong to put her through electroshock therapy and vomit therapy, that caused permanent physical damage and did nothing to change her orientation. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 30, 2012 Thanks guys, I appreciate that x) Wantdew, I'm curious then, are you neutral on slavery? There's a difference between understanding both sides of an argument and believing both sides of an argument. I can understand that people don't like homosexuality because they were raised to think it wasn't "ok", but that does not mean I believe the way they do just because it's someone's belief. But again, someone's personal beliefs do not get to dictate someone else's personal rights. Also, guys, Wantdew never said anything about hating gays. He said he was neutral. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 30, 2012 Do you guys think I hate gays? And if you truly understand both sides then you would be neutral. To truly understand you would have to be put in their situation. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 30, 2012 And if you truly understand both sides then you would be neutral. To truly understand you would have to be put in their situation. And what if you have been on both sides? I thought growing up my religion said being gay was wrong. I now know that isn't true. I am not neutral. With abortion -- I was Pro-Life, I vehemently believed that. I was as much on the Pro-Life side as anyone can be. I am now Pro-Choice. I understand both sides, I've been on both sides -- I cannot be neutral. In order to be neutral, you have to believe that both sides are equally right at the same time-- cognitive dissonance is not comfortable for me. It has nothing to do with understanding. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 30, 2012 (edited) And if you truly understand both sides then you would be neutral. To truly understand you would have to be put in their situation. No, that is not true. The only way a person would think like that is if they had no actual opinion of moral standpoint of their own, and simply can't make up their mind between which side makes a better argument. Issues like abortion and gay marriage have to do with morality, equality, and what is right. It is an issue that each individual has to decide for themselves, not just to "listen" to both sides and then try to pick which one sounds better. If you were truly neutral, it would be because you didn't care one way or another what happened to a minority's civil rights. Understanding both sides of an argument, in the way you see it, doesn't make you neutral, it makes you indecisive. Edited July 30, 2012 by Shiny Hazard Sign Share this post Link to post
Posted July 30, 2012 Do you guys think I hate gays? And if you truly understand both sides then you would be neutral. To truly understand you would have to be put in their situation. I have an Honors university degree and a minor in Philosophy that says you're rather badly wrong on that count. I was trained to research both sides of a question and come to a conclusion based on that research -- and that definitely meant making a choice between the two points of view in question. I can say with some confidence that in most cases, I came to understand both points of view. That certainly didn't stop me from choosing which one I felt had more logic and/or ethical value on its side. Or are you saying that two thousand years of Western philosophical methodology are fundamentally wrong? Share this post Link to post
Posted July 30, 2012 Do you guys think I hate gays? And if you truly understand both sides then you would be neutral. To truly understand you would have to be put in their situation. Some of us have been. I was a Christian. I was educated in a Catholic school and I BELIEVED. I believed so much. I loved Christ. I loved god. I believed in sin and in redemption through Jesus. I read the Bible and prayed feverently. I knew that all sorts of things were against gods plan, that sinners deserved compassion and direction to be redeemed from their sin. I knew that gays were confused and if they would just recognize their confusion, they would understand what god wanted for them and turn towards the light. I knew what they did was unnatural and wrong. I knew they shouldn't get married because it would harm their children and it would harm them. I lived and breathed 'the other side' for almost half of my life. I am an agnostic lesbian now. I don't believe in any one god, nor do I believe in all of them. I love humanity, my friends, my family, the people I don't even know who perform their own little miracles of survival and perseverance every day. I no longer pray, I act, speak, think, help. I don't think there is a 'plan', but I know there are agendas within the ken of the mortal world. I know that every day, gay people like me are fired, denied housing, denied EI, denied health care, denied a helping hand, verbally assaulted, beaten, starved, commit suicide, kicked out of their homes, stabbed, shot, strangled, burned, raped and murdered. I know that some of them are jerks and some are noble and some are sweet and some are sour and some are strong and some are weak and that they are all kinds of things-gay should be the least important. I know some are confused and some are not. I know they, and I deserve to be safe and equal, and their families do too. I truly understand both sides. I cannot be neutral. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 30, 2012 (edited) i really dont care. and dont hate on me! You guys all are picking sides and being biased to the side you picked, though. I relies all of your points but its not like these people are Hitlers. Edited July 30, 2012 by Wantdew Share this post Link to post
Posted July 30, 2012 I relies all of your points but its not like these people are Hitlers. That doesn't mean they can't do damage. I knew a six year old who drank bleach because he had a little crush on a boy and thought he deserved to die because of what his parents said. You guys all are picking sides and being biased to the side you picked, though. There's a difference between bias and a rational argument. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 30, 2012 (edited) Just remember that everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Here is an example of an opinion I am entitled to: Breast-Cancer is more serious than Gay Marriage. Edited July 30, 2012 by Wantdew Share this post Link to post
Posted July 30, 2012 (edited) Just remember that everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Here is an example of an opinion I am entitled to: Breast-Cancer is more serious than Gay Marriage. Yes you are. I agree, seeing as how I am in cancer research. That's what I do for a living. That does not somehow, however, make the fact that a lack of gay marriage rights costs lives unimportant. Edited July 30, 2012 by NobleOwl Share this post Link to post
Posted July 30, 2012 i really dont care. and dont hate on me! You guys all are picking sides and being biased to the side you picked, though. I relies all of your points but its not like these people are Hitlers. I don't hate you. I'm discussing what you are saying and answering your question honestly. Yes, I have 'picked a side' after a lifetime of evaluating experiences, scientific data, and living my own life. I know that many of the people on the 'other side' are normal folks just like me who, aside from this disagreement, are fine. But I can't just sit idly by and accept the life of silence and loneliness they expect me to lead just because. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 30, 2012 (edited) Do you guys think I hate gays? And if you truly understand both sides then you would be neutral. To truly understand you would have to be put in their situation. If you look at both and understand both your bound to go neutral. Neutral would mean you had nothing against either side. But you do seem to. I'm confused. You say you are neutral and then you say you are entitled to your opinion. Which is what ? If you were truly neutral, it would be because you didn't care one way or another what happened to a minority's civil rights. Understanding both sides of an argument, in the way you see it, doesn't make you neutral, it makes you indecisive. and In order to be neutral, you have to believe that both sides are equally right at the same time-- cognitive dissonance is not comfortable for me. It has nothing to do with understanding. What you are saying simply doesn't add up - even your posts don't fit together as a standpoint. It is nothing to do with "hating on you", it is to do with trying to get what you are saying. ETA you cannot compare breast cancer with gay marriage. Diseases are their own masters, and however much you feel that breast cancer should not be allowed - that will not affect those who have it one iota. Saying gay marriage shouldn't be is something that hurts those who believe in it, who want to make their relationship as official as a two-sex marriage. Edited July 30, 2012 by fuzzbucket Share this post Link to post
Posted July 30, 2012 (edited) I've efficiently stated my point I'm mostly done here. Neutral would mean you had nothing against either side. But you do seem to. No I don't! Edited July 30, 2012 by Wantdew Share this post Link to post
Posted July 30, 2012 Then - please excuse me - but why post in threads discussing them ? What you are effectively saying is that you don't mind either way. You only need to say that once. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 30, 2012 (edited) I've efficiently stated my point I'm mostly done here. Do you intend to address my question concerning whether or not you're claiming that 2000+ years of philosophical methodology are wrong? Because given the choice between what you're proposing and the methods of Socrates, Hegel, and thousands of other trained philosophers (not to mention plenty of highly experienced run-of-the-mill human beings)... well, guess which path I'm likely to pick? On topic: I'm quite capable of understanding the POV of anti-gay individuals. That doesn't stop me from judging their position to be (IMO) wrong and/or unethical and/or nonsensical. I also understand that people once believed the Earth was flat, and that some people still believe that black people are inferior to white people. I understand why they thought/think these things. Still doesn't make 'em right. Edited July 30, 2012 by prairiecrow Share this post Link to post
Posted July 30, 2012 Wantdew, we know you claim to be neutral on the subject but that is not contributing to the topic at hand. Let us now discuss something to do with gay equality, not what being neutral is. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 30, 2012 (edited) If you want to remain for [X] that you believe is right, do so, disregarding any extremism that may or may not be there. Because if you believe it is right, that is the important part. The obnoxious and the jerks DON'T change what is right. I apologize for the very late response to this. I have no good excuse . As I said, I want to continue supporting gay rights, but the lack of condemning the acts of the idiots in the movement is not helping me to stay that way. The silence leads me to wonder if the majority of the movement approves of the attacks. If they don't, they need to speak up (if they already are, louder!)! If they start doing that, it would help a lot to getting more support for the movement (and keeping the ones that already do). On another matter, I am surprised no one here has commented on the donation Amazon made to help the keep the same-sex marriage law in Washinton state (unless I missed it, somehow). I'd post link about it, but the only one I have about it right now is to theBlaze...and some of the comments in there are nasty! Edit: OK, did a quick google and found a version of the story on Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/28/...E86R01320120728 Edited July 30, 2012 by Slaskia Share this post Link to post
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