Marriage Equality and Other MOGAI/Queer Rights

[Sadako]

You are a total idiot... Chik-fil-A is a family owned company they have nothing against gays they just don't support gay marrige!  If it all came down on a ballot the family that owns them wouldn't vote.

Everyone keep in mind that these people are intitled to their own opinions.

Haha, well, I have a right to my opinion too, and my opinion is that families and/or businesses who do, in actuality, fund organizations that campaign to deny rights to any certain group based on prejudice are being big meanie-poohs, and therefore I say snippy things about them and don't give them my money.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Sadako

[Kila]

I will not aswer that as the post said they went there on purpose. Will not play devils advocate.

 

Yes, gays can get marrried here, as you said in your post, and gays also divorce just like hetro couples.

Having not read the quoted post, I wasn't trying to get you to play devil's advocate. I was asking a legitimate question. A hotel's job to to provide lodging to those who need it. It's discrimination to decline service. If it had been a black couple turned away it would have been called racism, or if it had been a couple of another religion it would have been persecution.

 

The point is that it's not right.

 

Homosexuality is not always a choice (if it's a choice at all). It cannot be "cured".

 

I also never said that gay couples don't get divorced. But considering that, right now, only a handful of states allow gay marriage the statistic is still lower because the gay population is not allowed to get married and therefor cannot get divorced.

 

Can't have divorce without marriage, can you?

 

Edit: Spelling ;A;

Edited July 29, 2012 by Kila

[NobleOwl]

Kat, out of curiosity, do you believe it would be right for a hospital to refuse my wife or daughter medical care because of her ethnicity, on the basis of religion?

 

Just expanding on the hotel idea, is all. Should a hospital be equally allowed to not serve people?

Edited July 29, 2012 by NobleOwl

[brairtrainer]

Honestly I'd liken the homosexual couple getting thrown out of a hotel similar to Martin Luther King Jr.'s or Gahndi's talk of civil disobedience.

 

Though people have a right to choose not to do buisness with other people I more look at this as a right to not take buisness from disrespectful customers, people you are afraid may use your product in a harmful manner, or in the case of many rabbit/cavy/dog/cat/horse/etc. breeders out there, people who will not take good care of it.

 

Refusing to do buisness because of someones skin color, ethnicity, hair color, sex, etc. I think should be illegal, and I'm pretty sure it is. If it isn't it seems to me that limiting customers is a way to make running your buisness harder.

[~Kat~]

Lets take a case of someone that is gay going to a hotel, motel, and not doing it on purpose but being a normal person, yes I would have a problem if they were turned away, you bet I would. I have gay friends, if some of you do not know.

 

If I needed a blood transfusion, I would be glad for a gay person to donate it to me, as long as the blood was screened for aids, as all people who do donate here, it has to be screened for aids.

 

Going to a hospital, no one should be turned away. But, it would not bother me if people that murder in cold blood, a child rapist and the other bad people who harm others as long as they are sane and know what they are doing, (not the insane or afflicted that they do not know what they are doing), did not get medical care. Sorry.

 

brairtrainer

 

Refusing to do buisness because of someones skin color, ethnicity, hair color, sex, etc as you said, I agree with, I think should be illegal myself.

 

But if the business owner has a sign up that says we have the right to refuse anyone business, that is also their right as far as I am concerned. I see it here where I live, so I am prepared knowing this sign is up, they might not do business with me, and I accept that.

[7Deadly$ins]

As far as I'm aware only private businesses and organizations actually have the right to turn people away like that.

 

I'm also not sure if gay people are even allowed to donate blood at all, at least in some areas.

[hazeh]

As far as I'm aware only private businesses and organizations actually have the right to turn people away like that.

 

I'm also not sure if gay people are even allowed to donate blood at all, at least in some areas.

At least in the USA, it's gay men that cannot donate blood, or anyone who has ever had gay male sex.

[Alse15]

That's really dumb. Heterosexual couples have anal sex all the time, so why not just say "all individuals that have had anal sex cannot donate blood"?. It's silly really, having such intercouse does not actually increase your chances of getting AIDs. It's coming into contact with infected blood that passes it. I could touch some blood on the street and wipe my eye later because it itches and become HIV positive.

[hazeh]

It's also present in other bodily fluids other than blood. Not tears or saliva, but blood isn't the only one. And yes I agree with you, I don't see why gay men should be shunned especially if they are tested as HIV negative.

[Alse15]

when I say blood, I pretty much meant anything with DNA. At least, to my knowledge it's any fluid that contains DNA.

 

But like you said, it really is a shame they're shunned for their sexuality. Especially when there is no real proof that says "gays have a much higher risk of having HIV than heterosexuals". If a study says that, I have no doubt the sample is skewed or outdated.

[AriahMakhi]

All for same sex marriage. I have several friends that are gay and bi and they are awesome people and they deserve to have their happiness just like everyone else. Who is any state or federal government to say that their love is not as good as the love of straight people? Who has the right to say they can't legally be linked to the person they want for life? It doesn't have to be any more complicated than that. Live and let love.

[~Kat~]

I agree, gay people love just like anyone else.

[hazeh]

I made a comment on another website that I felt like I wanted to share with other people, since I think it sums up my feelings on the matter of religion and homosexuality well. Keep in mind I was directing this at someone on said website.

 

I, and I'm sure many other people, appreciate your well thought-out and heart-felt comment Jessica. I do like seeing comments from people on the opposing- well, you understand what I mean- side who are well-natured and really do put the effort into coming across as caring.

 

 

 

But I do urge you to understand that for someone who doesn't take the Bible to heart, or someone who does but in a *different* way than you- since there are many different translations of the Bible, and likewise many different faiths- that trying to appeal to them by using Christ can at times be a little insulting. Those of us like myself who aren't easily offended will understand that you believe it is your duty to try and save us, or something along those lines, but please do recognize that a good majority of us don't feel the need to be saved. I, for one, don't really have any interest in Christ or Christianity. I have never had any need or want to appeal to a spiritual deity. I used to go to Church as a little kid, and sometimes with my grandparents when I got older, but as I have progressed I have learned that I really just don't have any interest in it.

 

 

 

People of other faiths, or of different denominations, will likely feel the same way about Christianity. They've made their commitment to whatever religion- or lack thereof- because that's where they feel they are comfortable, just as you are with Christianity. I don't think you'd want me to convert to Christianity because I don't have the capacity to feel faith for an institution, book, or celestial being that I don't believe exists. I don't really believe it is possible to make someone believe in a higher power, or a different one- either they do or they don't. Sure, there are always people who change their mind during their lives. But I think that should be left up to them and their personal experiences with whatever religious needs/desires they have.

 

 

 

For myself, I've gotten curious about different religions a few times. I've had discussions and read books and listened to people talk about all sorts of different faiths. Again, none of them really held all that much interest to me, and I am quite happy with myself as an agnostic. My personal belief that if a God truly exists out there, that he cares more about a person's spirit and their actions- do they act out of kindness, compassion, do they help others, do they act out of happiness- instead of how well they pay attention to a piece of literature written thousands of years ago. I also believe that everyone's experience with God is different and that it takes many different forms with different people. That's a big reason I think organized religion is a bit of a strain, since to me that's pretty much telling people how to live their relationship with a God. Personally, I don't really believe in one; I try rather to believe in humanity as a whole, and that there is an innate goodness in everyone that can be brought out. Somehow. Whether or not that has anything to do with a spiritual entity is not my concern, nor interest.

 

 

 

Back on the topic of homosexuality, haha (I apologize for my giant wall of text, though I do hope someone at least takes the time to read it).

 

 

 

First of all, I'll point out something so perhaps you can see things from my side. I was born to a lesbian mom, who met my other mom when I was almost two years old. They've been together ever since, and not once has either of them faltered in their unconditional love and support. They are *incredible* parents. They have always been there for me, encouraging me, and helping me along the way. They know just as well as any "straight" parent how to raise a child, and I very firmly believe they did a superb job at it. I even had a little sister now, who, despite some medical issues that were not helped by her biological, straight parents, is doing wonderfully. This kid is happy and giggly and full of life, and there couldn't be better parents for her.

 

I'll remind you, I've been raised by two women my whole life. One of them went to school and became an ICU nurse, and saves lives and absolutely ROCKS at her job. My other mom used to be an airline pilot (isn't that cool?!) before going to school to become a nurse as well. These two, wonderful women have done absolutely nothing wrong with their lives. They have strong morals, great personalities, and are the best women I've ever known.

 

 

 

Every day of my life, I've been around them and seen the love and devotion they have for each other. I've seen the struggle we've gone through when one of them was away for long periods of time. Hell, I get stuck with the little one while they still go out on dates! After 17 years of being together, their marriage is one of the happiest I've ever seen. I really can't say a lot for some of the heterosexual couples I've come across. And sadly, a vast majority of my good friends have parents who are divorced. I'm curious, then, how people feel justified in telling me- yes, even as a little kid I had people telling me this- that my parents' relationship was wrong, awful, "perverted", etc. All I could ever do was laugh! Because honestly, do you realize how ludicrous that is to someone who's seen this her whole life? I see straight couples on the street and I see my moms. And you know what? I don't see a difference. I see people who are in love and deserve to be together because they treat each other with adoration, respect, and dignity. And that's how a relationship should be, no matter what gender, race, or religious identity your partner is.

 

 

 

So I appreciate your comment and your compassion, but I must tell you Jessica- my moms deserve to be together, they deserve to have their marriage recognized on the federal level (because honestly, the government is not a church, so why is that a big deal anyway?), and they deserve to have their relationship respected by everyone else.

 

 

 

Because that's our duty as human beings to each other, first and foremost. Not as Christians, or Muslims, or Atheists- humans.

 

 

 

We respect one another.

[AriahMakhi]

@ Shiny Hazard Sign

 

I took the time to read all of that, and I agree with you with ever fiber of my being. Thank you so much for being another logical voice for those who oppose the majority. You have my undying respect. Kudos.

[~Kat~]

I also read the story, and it was very moving.

 

 

[Princess Artemis]

That's really dumb. Heterosexual couples have anal sex all the time, so why not just say "all individuals that have had anal sex cannot donate blood"?. It's silly really, having such intercouse does not actually increase your chances of getting AIDs. It's coming into contact with infected blood that passes it. I could touch some blood on the street and wipe my eye later because it itches and become HIV positive.

There's a reason for it: In the US, statistically speaking, a man who has had sex with another man is sixty times more likely to carry HIV than any other demographic in the general population, and two-thousand times more likely in the population that repeatedly donate blood ( http://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodvaccines/...d/ucm108186.htm ). It's not that gay men cannot donate blood in the US, it's any man who has had sex with another man. The reason women who have had anal sex are not banned from donating blood is because women, in the US, in that situation are not at such a high risk of carrying HIV.

 

Basically, it would be absolute insanity to take that chance with the blood pool. There isn't enough as it is.

 

@Haze, that's very well articulated. Nicely done. Your moms must be proud of you and happy they raised such a daughter.

[NobleOwl]

*claps for Haze*

 

For me, personally, I'm always shocked when I get called perverted, or when someone says that homosexuality is all about sex. Talalitha and I were together years before we even thought about it. I would have insisted we got married first, but the law wasn't on our side at the time.

 

I think you're absolutely right, Haze. It is about love, devotion, respect and dignity.

 

Being in a relationship is hard for anyone. We've been together for ten years now, and we've had our ups and downs and hardships. Most people have no idea what it feels like to sit back and wait, knowing that the person you love is off being voluntarily tortured because people keep telling her what she is is wrong, and the aftermath of it, and that you're part of the reason because she never expected to fall in love.

 

During the Prop 8 thing, it was such a struggle, because here I was, getting ready for my wedding (the first time, since it was illegal again before we said I do) with all this drama around, and people telling me what G-d ordained as if they had spoken to him. We couldn't have our wedding in the shul, because people were picketing -- all I wanted to do was get married according to my faith, before G-d and my family and friends. When we tried to have our rehearsal (some of you may remember this) someone carrying a "G0d Says 1 Man 1 Woman' sign ruined my wedding dress by throwing a rotten tomato at it. I spent my rehearsal crying in a robe for the mikvah (Jewish ritual bath).

 

But you know what? We got through it. So many people fail to realise that according to the Christian church, marriage is different than matrimony -- but I'm not after the Christian's word -- according to G-d, I am married, and have the ketubah to prove it. At this point, what matters to me is the rights to protect my children and my wife.

 

Things like:

Taking family leave to care for my wife and daughter during an illness.

Taking bereavement leave if Talalitha were to die.

Visiting her or my daughter in the hospital.

Making medical decisions for my wife and daughter in case of emergency.

Making sure that they don't contravene Jewish law after death if she were to die

Making final arrangements for her, were she to die.

 

That's what I care about -- not even the stuff associated with money.

[KageSora]

I'm a Christian and I attend church, that's it. Everything else I do could make me seem very Athiest.

There are a number of people who attend church but have no faith. As an acquaintance of mine has put it, they believe in the institution of their religion rather than the deity of their religion. So, they believe in the church over God. It was these people I was referring to, who name themselves Christian solely because of their attendance of church.

 

Sorry, I should have been more clear on that.

 

 

Alas, the obnoxious tend to be loud as well.

Yes, isn't it always the case?

 

 

 

On topic:

 

Regarding the boycotting of Chick-fil-A:

 

I personally say go for it--as a consumer. That's the wonderful thing about our market--we, as consumers, can show support or distaste for companies and organizations with our money. We buy from those who we find agreeable/make products we cannot do with out. We don't buy from and find alternatives to those who we find disagreeable.

 

However, I think that it should be the consumers choosing to deny a company their business. A company should not be banned from a city. A possible exception being if the majority of the residents request that the company be denied space in their city, as that would be the people making that choice.

 

 

Also, I find it funny that some people are insulting those who have decided to boycott them, or saying they shouldn't boycott, or people who claim boycotting does nothing. I'd like remind Americans of the famous bus boycott that resulted from Rosa Parks refusing to give up her seat to a white person. While I doubt boycotting Chick-fil-A will have such amazing results in the end, and the gay rights movement is already well underway, it's still worth pointing out that sometimes, boycotting does bring results, and that it is a valid form of non-violent protest, as well as having played a role in shaping the USA today.

 

If you don't like the idea of boycotting, then keep spending money with Chick-fil-A. Nobody's stopping you (or, they shouldn't be--it's absolutely your right to support them if you want to).

 

Also, I'd like to say that while I find it distasteful, I will still defend the right to disagree with gay marriage. However, there is a very real difference between not supporting something and actively attempting to prevent/stop something.

 

Don't like gay marriage? Don't get one. But there's no need to support hate or actively anti-gay groups. And my understanding of the situation is that Chick-fil-A, as a company, donates money to actively anti-gay organizations. I therefore won't give my money to a company knowing full well that it could go to fund something actively working against what I stand for.

 

If the owners simply donated their own money on their own time, that'd be one thing. I wouldn't boycott or support a company simply because of what the owners/staff do in their personal time/with their personal resources, I think that'd be a little bit silly.

[Wantdew]

I'd just like to point out that most of you are only thinking from your side and not the others. I used to support Gay Marriage, then I became the devil's advocate. I'm neutral because I saw that some other people truly believe gays are evil.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Wantdew

[7Deadly$ins]

I'd just like to point out that most of you are only thinking from your side and not the others. I used to support Gay Marriage, then I became the devil's advocate. I'm neutral because I saw that other people truly believe gays are evil.

And lots of people thought the same thing about other races. I am not obligated to look at it from their perspective when I consider it a morally bankrupt one.

[Alse15]

I'd just like to point out that most of you are only thinking from your side and not the others. I used to support Gay Marriage, then I became the devil's advocate. I'm neutral because I saw that some other people truly believe gays are evil.

Okay, so I'm confused. Did you allow your opinion to be swayed by others or simply lower it so you wouldn't step on anyone's toes?

 

I think on my side because I can't understand the other side. How can people think a population is evil because of their sexuality. It's not like they are actively harming anyone. I could understand if the larger part of the homosexual population raped and murdered on mass amounts. But they don't.

[Wantdew]

I'll start off by saying that I am for gay marriage. That said, I am finding myself starting to feel conflicted on the movement itself. I am starting to feel that certain 'elements' of the movement are starting to cause more harm than good.

 

I'm talking about attacks on people and businesses that do not support the movement. The Chick-a-fila thing is one example: the family that runs it are entitled to their opinion and gays have the right to boycott the franchise if they want in protest. However, trying to block the company from setting up shop in a city is going to far and only hurts the cause, IMO.

 

Another, not so long ago, example is a gay couple purposely going to a Christain owned/run hotel and trying to get a room. When the hotel owners refused them, they 'lawyered up' and sued them. These two already knew they would likely refuse them service...so why did they do this besides to try to ruin the business? There was apparently a similar case in my own city with a 'mom and pop' store that were also very Christrian: the gay couple in this case forced them out of business (and again, they purposely went there and outted themselves when they already knew they would be denied: they had a 'we have the right to deny service to anyone for any reason' sign on their door to boot). That one is third hand, so no idea how true it is.

 

This next example is also third hand at best, and I haven't been able to find a source myself, so I don't know how old the story is (if it even happened at all), so take it with a heap of salt.

 

Apparently, in Canada, there was a church that was fully supportive of gays and marriage for them and a number of their membership was gay. That is until one of their gay members decided to firebomb it simply because the church was Christain. The pastor ended up kicking out all the gays, as he no longer could trust any of them (other gays in the congragation 'knew' about the planned attack, but did not warn the church) and is now anti-gay marriage.

 

It's those kinds of things that are hurting the gay rights movement. And, these attacks seem to be done to Christians most of the time: even on those that are supporters of their cause (if that one story is to be believed). I know this may be likely because the US is predominately Christian, but I have yet to see acts against say...Islam (where in some Islamic run countries, like Iran, where being gay is a death sentence flat out). Is it happening and I'm not just hearing about it?

 

Not that I condone attacking any religion on this issue that is. Attacking anyone for 'disagreeing' is wrong and only hurts your (general) position. So why is there a sect of homosexuals that are falling into this kind of trap? I know there's extremists in every group, but you'd think the non-extremists would condemn such actions to try to minimize the damage. My brother (whom used to be for gay marriage until these kinds of things start happening) claims the extremists gays are the majority and if that's true (which I personally find hard to believe), than gay rights movement will end up killing itself.

 

That said, I want to remain for gay marriage (and other rights), but these things are starting to waver my stance a little. Unfortunately, I am very bad at researching these things myself (as in: can never figure out the right search terms to use), so I am not having much luck in the way of reassuring myself.

This is my point! Gays aren't the all holy people you guys think they are.

[Wantdew]

Okay, so I'm confused. Did you allow your opinion to be swayed by others or simply lower it so you wouldn't step on anyone's toes?

 

I think on my side because I can't understand the other side. How can people think a population is evil because of their sexuality. It's not like they are actively harming anyone. I could understand if the larger part of the homosexual population raped and murdered on mass amounts. But they don't.

Religion.

[Alse15]

I don't think they're holy. I think they deserve a chance at happyness.

 

I thought history has taught us not to judge the actions of few as behavior of the whole. Sure, a lot of homosexuals act like self absorbed jerks, but a lot of them are also the sweetest people you'll ever meet.

[7Deadly$ins]

I don't think they're holy. I think they're people, and that they deserve the same rights as other people.

 

If you're going to change your opinions just because x religion says something is wrong, you'll have a lot of opinions to be changing.

Edited July 30, 2012 by 7Deadly$ins