Marriage Equality and Other MOGAI/Queer Rights

[sparkle10184]

Just because groups of people consent, does not mean the rest of the population agree with their choice is all.

 

Again, I see marriage between 2 people, a man and a woman.

So what if the rest of the population doesn't agree? It's none of their business!

[NazrinTsunMouse]

Going to butt into this conversation for a second....

 

I am the eldest child of a lesbian woman and decided to post here since the discussion very much pertains to me and my family.

 

You see, every time gay marriage gets discussed, it's always about the couple getting married. But what about their children? Many gay couples do have children, children who could benefit from having married parents. By denying gay couples the right to marry, you're denying their children the right of having married parents and the benefits that come with that marriage.

 

Children are the future right? Then why deny the children of gay couples such an important part of their future? Everyone deserves to grow up in a stable household with something a little more solid to bind them all together.

 

I would love to see my mother someday married to someone she loves. There's nothing wrong with gay marriage and we shouldn't let some old religious text decide the laws of our country. Not in a country as diverse as ours with many other religions floating about.

 

That's my view on the matter.

[hazeh]

Going to butt into this conversation for a second....

 

I am the eldest child of a lesbian woman and decided to post here since the discussion very much pertains to me and my family.

 

You see, every time gay marriage gets discussed, it's always about the couple getting married. But what about their children? Many gay couples do have children, children who could benefit from having married parents. By denying gay couples the right to marry, you're denying their children the right of having married parents and the benefits that come with that marriage.

 

Children are the future right? Then why deny the children of gay couples such an important part of their future? Everyone deserves to grow up in a stable household with something a little more solid to bind them all together.

 

I would love to see my mother someday married to someone she loves. There's nothing wrong with gay marriage and we shouldn't let some old religious text decide the laws of our country. Not in a country as diverse as ours with many other religions floating about.

 

That's my view on the matter.

Wonderfully written. I'm also the daughter of a lesbian (well, two, since they're married) so I understand you wholeheartedly.

 

I hope some day you get to see your Mom get married to the woman she loves, too

[Wantdew]

Going to butt into this conversation for a second....

 

I am the eldest child of a lesbian woman and decided to post here since the discussion very much pertains to me and my family.

 

You see, every time gay marriage gets discussed, it's always about the couple getting married. But what about their children? Many gay couples do have children, children who could benefit from having married parents. By denying gay couples the right to marry, you're denying their children the right of having married parents and the benefits that come with that marriage.

 

Children are the future right? Then why deny the children of gay couples such an important part of their future? Everyone deserves to grow up in a stable household with something a little more solid to bind them all together.

 

I would love to see my mother someday married to someone she loves. There's nothing wrong with gay marriage and we shouldn't let some old religious text decide the laws of our country. Not in a country as diverse as ours with many other religions floating about.

 

That's my view on the matter.

I don't view this way, I'm neutral, but this made me tear.

[Princess Artemis]

Prayer has no place in schools. We have a separation of church and state for a reason. Public schools are not a place for religion.

I don't believe you understand what separation of church and state in the US means.

 

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

 

Show me where in that sentence it says that "prayer has no place in schools" or that religion has no place in any public school. Go on, show me.

 

Sorry for the aside, but it's tiresome to see people post, as if it were a fact, that prayer does not belong in schools. What an abridgment of the rights of children :/

 

Just because groups of people consent, does not mean the rest of the population agree with their choice is all.

 

Yeah. Nevertheless, the law shouldn't be based on whether or not a lot of people agree with something.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Princess Artemis

[7Deadly$ins]

Valid.

 

That said, as we are not supposed to establish a religion, organized prayer does NOT have a place in schools. A child praying over their meal before lunch is fine. A teacher leading the class in prayer is another.

[~Kat~]

If the two people consent, what business it is of the rest of the population? It's their choice, not the population's. No one is getting hurt or harming anyone else. It's no one else's business.

Sometimes things are other peoples business.

 

Like abortion, polygamy and the list can go on.

 

When you work, and have to pay tax's and then pay for other peoples problems because they can not afford the children they have, or will not use protection or could care less if they have an abortion or like gays getting married, (which it does not bother me in the long run if gays marry), but to many people this is not what they believe and then have to pay for say medical care if gay married do not have medical care. I do not know if you realize that everything ties in together in this world.

 

There are rules and regulations to keep a society in running order to keep a country healthy and a persons means to be productive.

 

I see both sides of it. When I was young and even in my 20's I thought a lot of the way some of you do here. Live and let live. I have found out since I got married and had children of my own, things do matter in every aspet of life. I worked hard for my money to give my children a good comfortable life, put them through school and to be productive citizens and to have morals and ethics. I do not want to pay for other people when I know this is not what our country was based on and for things I do not believe in, such as uncalled abortions or polygamy. Marriage is berween one man and one woman, not to have multiple partners. I would not want my husband to have other females in our bed, sorry. If any of you would want to be married and have multiple partners, ok then, but those of you who don't, how can you see this as right? Why should I have to pay for someone in a polygamy marriage, or they get benefits, this is just wrong to me. I was not raised to believe in many partners in marriage. Now that I can think for myself, I still do not believe in it. My parents were racist, I am not.

 

With every aspect of life, there are consequences, that do sometimes affect others.

[hazeh]

Sometimes things are other peoples business.

 

Like abortion, polygamy and the list can go on.

 

When you work, and have to pay tax's and then pay for other peoples problems because they can not afford the children they have, or will not use protection or could care less if they have an abortion or like gays getting married, (which it does not bother me in the long run if gays marry), but to many people this is not what they believe and then have to pay for say medical care if gay married do not have medical care. I do not know if you realize that everything ties in together in this world.

 

There are rules and regulations to keep a society in running order to keep a country healthy and a persons means to be productive.

 

I see both sides of it. When I was young and even in my 20's I thought a lot of the way some of you do here. Live and let live. I have found out since I got married and had children of my own, things do matter in every aspet of life. I worked hard for my money to give my children a good comfortable life, put them through school and to be productive citizens and to have morals and ethics. I do not want to pay for other people when I know this is not what our country was based on and for things I do not believe in, such as uncalled abortions or polygamy. Marriage is berween one man and one woman, not to have multiple partners. I would not want my husband to have other females in our bed, sorry. If any of you would want to be married and have multiple partners, ok then, but those of you who don't, how can you see this as right? Why should I have to pay for someone in a polygamy marriage, or they get benefits, this is just wrong to me. I was not raised to believe in many partners in marriage. Now that I can think for myself, I still do not believe in it. My parents were racist, I am not.

 

With every aspect of life, there are consequences, that do sometimes affect others.

You don't have to pay for anyone's marriage. Yes, you have to pay taxes. That's part of being an American citizen. But our government is there to protect everyone, not just those you agree with. Do I want criminals in prisons to have TVs and computers and nice things? Probably not. Do they get it? Yeah. So what? You are not directly funding anything, so it's not your problem.

 

If you were raised not to like something, then fine. Don't like it. But it's not your place or anyone else's to keep other people from practicing something that doesn't hurt or infringe on someone else's rights.

[Sadako]

Just because groups of people consent, does not mean the rest of the population agree with their choice is all.

 

Again, I see marriage between 2 people,  a man and a woman.

1. You =/= the rest of the population. Yes, some people share your opinion, but some don't. Whether you're talking about polygamy specifically or still talking about gay marriage here your own morals, even the morals of a large group of people who all follow a certain religion, are not universal.

 

An example: some people are bothered by the idea of their kids being exposed to religions other than their own. Yes, enforced prayer-time was removed from state-funded schools, but, because the morals of the people who wanted prayer to be reserved for church were not universal, parochial schools were not outlawed. You can send your kids to a religious private school where they can pray at school all day long if you like. It has to be at your own expense, but then so does every other religious activity.

 

2. I like peanut butter and dill-pickle sandwiches on toasted rye bread. The rest of the population (or at least a huge majority) does not like them, but no one bothers to pass a law telling me I can't eat them, nor should they. My eating weird sandwiches has never trod on anyone's rights and aside from perhaps a little mild discomfort at seeing me eat something so strange it does no harm to anyone. Passing a law telling me I couldn't eat them would be unnecessary, rude, pointless, and would infringe on my pursuit of happiness, which, whether anyone likes it or not, is guaranteed to me.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Sadako

[Fuzzbucket]

1. You =/= the rest of the population. Yes, some people share your opinion, but some don't. Whether you're talking about polygamy specifically or still talking about gay marriage here your own morals, even the morals of a large group of people who all follow a certain religion, are not universal.

 

An example: some people are bothered by the idea of their kids being exposed to religions other than their own. Yes, enforced prayer-time was removed from state-funded schools, but, because the morals of the people who wanted prayer to be reserved for church were not universal, parochial schools were not outlawed. You can send your kids to a religious private school where they can pray at school all day long if you like. It has to be at your own expense, but then so does every other religious activity.

 

2. I like peanut butter and dill-pickle sandwiches on toasted rye bread. The rest of the population (or at least a huge majority) does not like them, but no one bothers to pass a law telling me I can't eat them, nor should they. My eating weird sandwiches has never trod on anyone's rights and aside from perhaps a little mild discomfort at seeing me eat something so strange it does no harm to anyone. Passing a law telling me I couldn't eat them would be unnecessary, rude, pointless, and would infringe on my pursuit of happiness, which, whether anyone likes it or not, is guaranteed to me.

 

Thank you for exposing me to something new. Unlike many of the closed minded people in this thread, instead of instantly dissing you for being strangely different, I shall try one as soon as I get hold of some dill pickles.

 

If I like them, that is a new good thing in my life. If I don't, I will still defend your right to eat them. Don't make me no never mind.

 

Says it all, really Including rights in terms of morality. Unless you poison my pickles, what the heck does it matter to anyone else ?

[Alpha1]

Show me where in that sentence it says that "prayer has no place in schools" or that religion has no place in any public school. Go on, show me.

 

Sorry for the aside, but it's tiresome to see people post, as if it were a fact, that prayer does not belong in schools. What an abridgment of the rights of children :/

 

The Fourteenth Amendment extended the First Amendment to the state level.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abington_Scho...rict_v._Schempp

 

8 - 1

 

"In writing the opinion of the Court, Justice Thomas Clark stated, "This Court has decisively settled that the First Amendment's mandate [in the Establishment Clause] has been made wholly applicable to the States by the Fourteenth Amendment . . . in a series of cases since Cantwell (Eastland, 1993, p. 151; Davis, 1991, 91)."

[Princess Artemis]

The Fourteenth Amendment extended the First Amendment to the state level.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abington_Scho...rict_v._Schempp

 

8 - 1

 

"In writing the opinion of the Court, Justice Thomas Clark stated, "This Court has decisively settled that the First Amendment's mandate [in the Establishment Clause] has been made wholly applicable to the States by the Fourteenth Amendment . . . in a series of cases since Cantwell (Eastland, 1993, p. 151; Davis, 1991, 91)."

And where in that does it say that "prayer does not belong in schools"? No where, exactly. 7Deadly$ins got my point and I'm satisfied with that.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Princess Artemis

[~Kat~]

Same goes with prayer in school. It is not hurting anyone. You have people that like prayer and then you have the Athiests.

 

So let prayer back in schools then.

[hazeh]

Same goes with prayer in school. It is not hurting anyone. You have people that like prayer and then you have the Athiests.

 

So let prayer back in schools then.

People can pray on their own time in school, no one stops them from doing that. But teacher-led prayer, is in fact, wasting my time as a student who does not pray. So yes, it is in essence, harming some.

[~Kat~]

People can pray on their own time in school, no one stops them from doing that. But teacher-led prayer, is in fact, wasting my time as a student who does not pray. So yes, it is in essence, harming some.

Is it going to kill you or what?

[hazeh]

Is it going to kill you or what?

Is physical harm the only harm you care for? Public schools are meant for education about facts, not religious views. Religion is a personal thing, and as an atheist I am not interested in having my school time wasted by something that does not pertain to me. I go to school to learn, not to pray. If you want to pray, do it on your own time, or when it isn't going to disrupt the learning time for others.

[-platinum-draco-]

Same goes with prayer in school. It is not hurting anyone. You have people that like prayer and then you have the Athiests.

 

So let prayer back in schools then.

Wait a moment. I know this is probably veering off topic but no. It is hurting the people who are atheists and pay taxes so that children may learn. They don't want money going off so that we can be taught something our parents don't beleive in, and what prayers to teach? Christian ones? No. No prayer taught in school.

 

It is respecting an establishment of religion if government funded schools teach prayers. The government gives money to the school, to pay teachers, to do work. If their work includes teaching prayers, then that is money going from the government to teach kids about religion. Indirectly, yes, but still wrong. Religion shouldn't be forced.

 

Now back onto the topic of the thread, this is the same principle. What are the primary arguments against gay marriage? Religious ones. Religion has no place in government. Religion is made up of beliefs deeply held, but not necessarily logical ones. The beliefs of one person shouldn't affect the rights of another. From a logical standpoint, there is no reason two people who love each other shouldn't gain the rights of being married. It hurts no one.

[~Kat~]

Is physical harm the only harm you care for? Public schools are meant for education about facts, not religious views. Religion is a personal thing, and as an atheist I am not interested in having my school time wasted by something that does not pertain to me. I go to school to learn, not to pray. If you want to pray, do it on your own time, or when it isn't going to disrupt the learning time for others.

It takes less than 3 minutes to say a prayer.

 

Like I said, I have an athiest friend that says prayer does not hurt her, but there again she is older and wiser than a lot of others. She and I understand that we are all different.

 

I went to school to. Seems to me that I remember other students being bad and wasting my precious time in school, that had nothing to do with prayer,

[hazeh]

It takes less than 3 minutes to say a prayer.

 

Like I said, I have an athiest friend that says prayer does not hurt her, but there again she is older and wiser than a lot of others. She and I understand that we are all different.

 

I went to school to. Seems to me that I remember other students being bad and wasting my precious time in school, that had nothing to do with prayer,

For one religion, maybe. If you want prayer back in school, you better include 3 minutes for EVERY religion out there. And then another 3 minutes of silence for atheists to explain, day in and day out, why such-and-such deity may/does not exist.

[WereJace]

It takes less than 3 minutes to say a prayer.

 

Like I said, I have an athiest friend that says prayer does not hurt her, but there again she is older and wiser than a lot of others. She and I understand that we are all different.

 

I went to school to. Seems to me that I remember other students being bad and wasting my precious time in school, that had nothing to do with prayer,

So whose prayer gets said? Or would a 'silent reflection period' be acceptable enough? I wasn't really on board with praying in school either (didn't want to honor people who hated me and wanted me to not exist), but got in trouble for not praying out loud.

[-platinum-draco-]

It takes less than 3 minutes to say a prayer.

 

Like I said, I have an athiest friend that says prayer does not hurt her, but there again she is older and wiser than a lot of others. She and I understand that we are all different.

 

I went to school to. Seems to me that I remember other students being bad and wasting my precious time in school, that had nothing to do with prayer, 

And it is not hurting anyone keeping it out of schools.

 

We are all different, which is why we shouldn't be taught just one belief as if it is better than the rest. I don't want to waste three minutes of my life praising a being I don't believe in, and it would be worse if I was of a different religion (as opposed to of none), because then beliefs conflict.

 

This should maybe be a different thread.

 

EDIT: WereJace brought up "Silent Reflection," which I believe is okay. A moment of silence would hurt a lot less, maybe even be helpful. I know that even as an atheist I can appreciate a moment to just think about things.

Edited July 28, 2012 by -platinum-draco-

[hazeh]

 

EDIT: WereJace brought up "Silent Reflection," which I believe is okay. A moment of silence would hurt a lot less, maybe even be helpful. I know that even as an atheist I can appreciate a moment to just think about things.

I agree. At my elementary school, we used to have a moment of silence. I remember just sitting there being a little bored, but it only lasted for about 60 seconds. Since no one is directing what anyone says or does in that moment, and it's completely personal, I have no qualms. It's the teacher-led prayer, the out-loud and outright biblical things that don't have a place in public schools.

[Sadako]

Oh, I clearly shouldn't have made that comparison... I was saying that it doesn't infringe upon anyone's rights to remove prayer from school (because the way our laws and constitution are written no one ever had any right to make anyone pray their way, in school or anyplace else) just as it doesn't infringe on anyone's rights to allow gay marriage (because no one has ever been guaranteed the right to say which committed relationships are valid).

 

Also, having Christian prayer enforced in school does not only hurt them gull-durned atheists, it's also pretty uncomfortable and a total waste of learning time for people of the country's many other diverse religions which are all valid and constitutionally permitted.

[BirdSpirit]

It takes less than 3 minutes to say a prayer.

 

Like I said, I have an athiest friend that says prayer does not hurt her, but there again she is older and wiser than a lot of others. She and I understand that we are all different.

 

I went to school to. Seems to me that I remember other students being bad and wasting my precious time in school, that had nothing to do with prayer,

I'm atheist and I went to a Catholic private school. No prayer doesn't hurt me, but it does waste my time in my opinion.

 

As for misbehaving students, their form of behavior is not encouraged. However, you are encouraging prayer and that makes the difference.

 

(oh dear we are getting off topic)

 

Back to gay marriage. I have no qualms about people who do not support it. Their opinion is theirs. However, I do have an issue with people who do not support it AND act on it.

[Alse15]

Okay, so I feel like there's a lot of points I would like to make and I'll try to keep it as organized as possible without ranting.

 

On the subject of prayer in school:

 

As an agnostic, I don't want to be forced to pray. I feel awkward when I'm forced to bow my head down and close my eyes when eating dinner at a friends house. I have nothing against religion, but it feels wrong to me to be actively doing something you don't believe in. Why force other people to be uncomfortable for the sake forcing everyone to pray in school? I don't mind the idea of "thinking time", since people will pray to whatever god they believe in and people who don't have a god might just sort their thoughts.

 

Abortion:

 

Personally, I disagree with this being used as a birth control method, but who am I to force children to suffer because of their parent's mistakes. If a parent is unable to care for a child financially/emotionally/mentally, then do not force them to keep the children. Also, to completely ban abortion really sucks for the people who get pregnant and find out that having the baby could kill them, or get pregnant because of rape.

 

Gay Marriage:

 

I don't care if you're gay, straight, black, white, or even yellow with purple polkadots and I highly doubt God gives a crap either. Otherwise, why would you see examples of homosexuality in the animal kingdom? I think it's wrong to condemn people strictly because of their sexuality. Them being with their own gender does nothing to you. They do not need to be saved. And contrary to some of the beliefs here, they do not feed off the government.

 

I've been hit on by a number of my friends who are bi or lesbian and it doesn't bother me. No, I don't like girls. I take it as a compliment and tell them that I'm not interested. Then, it's over and we're back to normal.

 

I think people who go out and physically harm homosexuals because they think it's evil, are disgusting. We've gotten past the issue of skin color (mostly) and religion (mostly), so why can't we brush aside the fact that people like other kinds of people?

 

On another note, I think gays should be allowed to marry. I understand that it is seen as a religious thing and being homosexual goes "agaisnt" Christianity, but it's so much more than that now. It's a matter of legality. It's not right to prevent someone from giving another the health insurence they need to save them, visit them in the hospital or rights to children in case of a break up simply because they aren't married.

 

No matter what, we are all human and deserve to be treated as such.