Jump to content
MURDERcomplexx

Marriage Equality and Other MOGAI/Queer Rights

Recommended Posts

Here is an interesting article that carries my point of view better than I can:

http://carm.org/bible-homosexuality

 

 

Even though I haven't met many homosexual people in my life, I've never found the urge to condemn them for what they do, even if I believe differently. But in numerous places, the Bible explains that homosexuality is a sin. For instance, the wicked men of Sodom wanted to know the two angels that had come to warn Lot that God was going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. Lot had told them it was an abomination, which it is. Even though those words didn't come from the direct mouth of God in that period, they came from somewhere. And that somewhere is Leviticus 18:22.

 

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. (KJV)

 

That alone is proof enough for me, but then again, I'm a Christian, a Holy-Rolling Pentecostal at that. I'm entitled to my own beliefs, my own freewill, as any other person is. So please, if you are in ANY way offended by this, don't be. It's just own opinion in what I believe.

Edited by Skypool

Share this post


Link to post

Even though those words didn't come from the direct mouth of God in that period, they came from somewhere. And that somewhere is Leviticus 18:22.

 

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. (KJV)

 

That alone is proof enough for me, but then again, I'm a Christian, a Holy-Rolling Pentecostal at that.

Do you eat shellfish? Or wear polyester/cotton blends? Or fail to stone your neighbor when he works on the Sabbath?

 

If so, you're violating the laws laid out in Leviticus. And oddly enough, I see very few Christians picketing Red Lobster and The Gap.

 

If you're not following all the laws in Leviticus, why on earth should anyone (especially non-Christians) take you seriously when you claim that "oh, just SOME of them are good"? It doesn't look very convincing, especially when Christians use those laws (which don't apply to non-Christians anyway) to deny rights and freedoms to other people.

Edited by prairiecrow

Share this post


Link to post

Christians don't follow ALL of the laws of Leviticus ever since Jesus died on the Cross and gave us salvation, gave us freewill. No, we don't stone our neighbors, physically or verbally, just because they work on the Sabbath (Sunday). There are some people who have to work on that day to take care of their families. The Bible also deems that as important (1 Timothy 5:8). I personally HATE shellfish, but I know Christians do eat it and haven't been strucken down by God or cast out. And no, I and a lot of people I know, don't just choose out Bible verses that we think are good. I've been guilty of not following the Bible out of temptation and such and I've been convicted of doing such things by God and the Bible. I know a lot of people think we're just a big load of hypocrites, but we're not, well essentially. I've had hypocritical traits and sometimes I still possess them, but God has convicted me of them. At one point of my young life, I used to say that God loves the saint and not the sinner. But that's not true and I know that now. God loves everyone, saint and sinner, young and old, straight and gay. But the wages of sin are death, and not to sound condemning, but homosexuality IS considered a sin... I know I've sinned and so has everyone else, but I have to die to the flesh every day and ask for forgiveness because I know I'm in flesh, a sinner. It's human nature.... So really, what I'm trying to say is that no, most Christians these days don't follow every single word in Leviticus. And the only reason is because when Jesus died, He became the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. That's why we don't have to sacrifice bullocks or lambs any more. That's why we don't have priests mediating every sin or even every good thing to God, through sacrifices...

Edited by Skypool

Share this post


Link to post

Skypool, that's fine -- for Christians. But I am not Christian, and neither is about two thirds of the rest of the world.

 

Why should the society that I (and other non-Christians) live in be shaped by Christian morality to the extent that rights and freedoms are denied to some of us based on what YOUR holy book says? When even Christians can't seem to agree amongst themselves?

Share this post


Link to post

So what I don't understand, that if God decided that "okay, its alright to wear mixed threads and eat shellfish now", why didn't He also say that about homosexuality? It seems there's a lot of interpretation going on, with interpretation just suiting an individual's needs. And it doesn't explain why someone who isn't Christian should listen at all.

 

I would highly recommend reading "The Year of Living Biblically", by A. J. Jacobs. Its a true story about a secular Jew who decided trying to follow every single law in the Bible as literally as possible. To research it he read about 70 different Bibles, consulted a variety of Rabbis, priests, Imams and biblical scholars, and visited a variety of Orthodox, conservative and liberal groups of Christians, Jews and Muslims. Its quite funny, but also serious, as Jacobs's looked into the many rules laid out in the Bible, how you should know which ones are applicable, and how to get spiritual meaning from it regardless.

 

Edit: Auto-correct turned "Bliblically" to "Bionically". xd.png

Edited by Completely Different

Share this post


Link to post

You believe god created us all?

 

Then he also created gays.

 

Which means he wants us here.

 

How long will it take you to realize that?

 

Perhaps your god's word was misinterpreted, as the bible is pretty well, a long, written game of telephone.

 

And is not his direct words.

 

I myself, am atheist, living by my own morals. I do no harm, and live my life on a day to day basis, contributing to society as anyone else does, regardless of religion, race, sexuality, gender.. You name it. But again, atheist. I do not follow any religion or believe in an deity. Why should I be put in the metaphorical box or cage of a faith I do not care to follow? Am I not free as my nation says I am? Am I not a free person?

 

Or maybe I am less of a person because of who I love. That's just silly.

 

I myself, am tolerant of differences.

 

But the moment I see oppression, discrimination or bigotry. I am outraged.

 

And "crusading" against gay marriage, or gays in general is oppression.

 

Am I a bad person based on who I love? You choose an awfully stupid thing to judge an entire human being based on. You can judge their actions, their words, but judge who they love?

 

That hardly says a thing about them as a person.

 

What do you know about me from being a lesbian?

 

Nothing.

Edited by EverAll

Share this post


Link to post

Why should the society that I (and other non-Christians) live in be shaped by Christian morality to the extent that rights and freedoms are denied to some of us based on what YOUR holy book says? When even Christians can't seem to agree amongst themselves?

 

That, I don't know. xd.png All I know is that in Leviticus 18:22 I trust, but I will do my best to be kind and loving to all, even those who have beliefs that don't exactly match up to mine.

 

NOTE: I'm not trying to lash out at homosexuals or condemn them to any sort of death. I think I've said this before, but just to clarify... That's just what I believe and I'm entitled to my own beliefs JUST LIKE anyone else.

Edited by Skypool

Share this post


Link to post
You believe god created us all?

 

Then he also created gays.

 

Which means he wants us here.

 

How long will it take you to realize that?

 

Perhaps your god's word was misinterpreted, as the bible is pretty well, a long, written game of telephone.

 

And is not his direct words.

 

I myself, am atheist, living by my own morals. I do no harm, and live my life on a day to day basis, contributing to society as anyone else does, regardless of religion, race, sexuality, gender.. You name it. But again, atheist. I do not follow any religion or believe in an deity. Why should I be put in the metaphorical box or cage of a faith I do not care to follow? Am I not free as my nation says I am? Am I not a free person?

 

Or maybe I am less of a person because of who I love. That's just silly.

 

I myself, am tolerant of differences.

 

But the moment I see oppression, discrimination or bigotry. I am outraged.

 

And "crusading" against gay marriage, or gays in general is oppression.

 

Am I a bad person based on who I love? You choose an awfully stupid thing to judge an entire human being based on. You can judge their actions, their words, but judge who they love?

 

That hardly says a thing about them as a person.

 

What do you know about me from being a lesbian?

 

Nothing.

*applauds*

 

Very well said...

 

I have to agree with you, and I'm like you, in a way. I'm an atheist-agnostic, pansexual, and I do as much good as I can within my means.

 

But there are so many people around where I live that judge me just because I like other females. It saddens me to think that I'm judged and looked down upon because of who I'm open to falling in love with.

Share this post


Link to post

See, this is why I hate religion in general. It's stupid to hate/condemn a human being based on a book written thousands of years ago. Our human culture changes over time as we become more aware of things like morals and science and logic and look past what a certain religion tells us to believe in. Sure, yeah, the bible condems homosexuality - but it also wanted women stoned to death should they have sex before marriage, as someone above said. Does that still make it right because it's what that book said?

No. It doesn't. No matter the most logical explanation someone can come up with using the bible as THE source of information, I still cannot fathom how someone could justify denying another human being the same rights everyone else gets to enjoy.

Share this post


Link to post
That, I don't know. xd.png All I know is that in Leviticus 18:22 I trust, but I will do my best to be kind and loving to all, even those who have beliefs that don't exactly match up to mine.

 

NOTE: I'm not trying to lash out at homosexuals or condemn them to any sort of death. I think I've said this before, but just to clarify... That's just what I believe and I'm entitled to my own beliefs JUST LIKE anyone else.

You can believe whatever you want to believe. But don't be surprised when you post in threads with your beliefs and people debate them or are offended by them.

 

Because, people who believe the same things you do oftentimes are horrible to homosexuals, even if you personally aren't. Call it a bias if you will or even paranoia, but unfortunetly people have reason to be paranoid when Christians such as yourself who believe homosexuality is a sin have gone so far as to maim, rape and murder people simply for being born different.

 

I also find it kinda interesting that so many Christians condemn people as sinners for their sexuality, beliefs or their gender, when Jesus never had a problem with everyone, and taught people to love one another no matter who they are. So interesting that Christians like yourself don't follow the very beliefs set down in your own bible.

 

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." Mohandas Gandhi

Share this post


Link to post

See, this is why I hate religion in general. It's stupid to hate/condemn a human being based on a book written thousands of years ago.

What about religions that have no equivalent to the Bible (ie, experiential religions as opposed to revealed religions)?

 

Faiths like Wicca generally have no problem with homosexuality, much less with the concept of gay marriage. (Heck, as a marriage commissioner myself I'm pleased and proud to marry gay couples when they come to me, whether in a Pagan or non-Pagan context, and I've read several beautiful Pagan services for same-sex couples.)

Edited by prairiecrow

Share this post


Link to post

What about religions that have no equivalent to the Bible (ie, experiential religions as opposed to revealed religions)?

 

Faiths like Wicca generally have no problem with homosexuality, much less with the concept of gay marriage. (Heck, as a marriage commissioner myself I'm pleased and proud to marry gay couples when they come to me, whether in a Pagan or non-Pagan context, and I've read several beautiful Pagan services for same-sex couples.)

I'm sorry if this is a personal question, but might I ask where you're from?

 

I'm just curious as to whether you're from the United States, or from another country?

 

I myself, am Canadian. Same sex marriage is allowed nation wide here, which I am quite proud of. I was outraged when I heard of Harper's attempt to "reinstate the traditional definition of marriage" awhile back.

 

I'm quite glad our marriage law's equality remains intact here.

Edited by EverAll

Share this post


Link to post
I'm sorry if this is a personal question, but might I ask where you're from?

 

I'm just curious as to whether you're from the United States, or from another country

I'm a marriage commissioner in Manitoba, Canada. smile.gif

Share this post


Link to post
I'm a marriage commissioner in Manitoba, Canada. smile.gif

Ah, I see. That's interesting.

 

Do you deal with many same sex couples?

Share this post


Link to post
Ah, I see. That's interesting.

 

Do you deal with many same sex couples?

I've married one male same sex couple so far, but of course I'd be just as pleased and proud to marry lesbian couples. (I do one marriage a year, on average -- I'm not exactly out there selling myself, and people generally find me through Witchvox.)

Share this post


Link to post

Including Orthodox? If the Conservative branch is divided, then why wouldn't Orthodox?

 

Rabbis are required to be married. In the US, a ketubah requires a marriage license from the state. No ketubah? No marriage. No marriage? Not going to be a rabbi.

 

That alone is proof enough for me, but then again, I'm a Christian, a Holy-Rolling Pentecostal at that. I'm entitled to my own beliefs, my own freewill, as any other person is. So please, if you are in ANY way offended by this, don't be. It's just own opinion in what I believe.

 

One thing I often wondered. Why do people use the KJV when it differs so very much, in thousands of verses, from the original texts? Is it just because they can't read them to compare, or what? (No offense meant, just curious.)

 

For me, that verse:

 

וְאֶת-זָכָר--לֹא תִשְׁכַּב, מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה: תּוֹעֵבָה ,

הִוא

 

Has nothing to do with homosexuality, and everything to do with paganism. Look at the context:

 

And thou shalt not give any of thy seed to set them apart to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

 

 

Context is important. You can't just take one verse out of context and waggle it around. Those verses are about temple prostitutes, and gaining knowledge/forgiveness/enlightenment through sexual acts with sacred prostitutes. Similar to surviving Tantric practise. It has nothing, contextually, to do with a consensual, loving relationship.

 

That's why we don't have to sacrifice bullocks or lambs any more.

 

Can I just point out that blood sacrifices were never required in the first place? Please? Even when the sacrifices were legal (ie: tabernacle or Temple standing) -- there were always other options, that were in fact, more powerful and preferred. Blood sacrifice was the "cheapest" way of showing contrition. When the people relied on them too heavily, we had exile situations, o people would get away from the idea of blood sacrifice being important.

 

That's why we don't have priests mediating every sin or even every good thing to God, through sacrifices...

 

Again, um....that never happened.

 

 

[seriously, what do Christians think HAPPENED in Judaism?]

 

 

I've married one male same sex couple so far, but of course I'd be just as pleased and proud to marry lesbian couples. (I do one marriage a year, on average -- I'm not exactly out there selling myself, and people generally find me through Witchvox.)

 

 

So...theoretically, if a couple of friendly lesbians, with oh, two kids, were considering immigrating, would you be willing to do a (secular) vow renewal or do you just do your faith?

Edited by NobleOwl

Share this post


Link to post
So...theoretically, if a couple of friendly lesbians, with oh, two kids, were considering immigrating, would you be willing to do a (secular) vow renewal or do you just do your faith?

I've done secular vows, Wiccan vows, more generally Pagan vows and Shinto vows. smile.gif I'm sure I could accommodate you! Come on up! It's not REALLY as cold up here as they all say it is! (Much.) xd.png

Share this post


Link to post

Ah, I see. That's interesting. So it's not a full time thing for you eh? That's a neat thing to do on the side.

 

EDIT: It's not so cold ;D Summer here goes to 100 degrees Fahrenheit sometimes.. Don't worry about winter :U /slapped

Edited by EverAll

Share this post


Link to post
Ah, I see. That's interesting. So it's not a full time thing for you eh? That's a neat thing to do on the side.

My full-time gig is actually commercial art. I became a marriage commissioner in order to serve the local Pagan community, but have (as I noted) done ceremonies in a number of different styles over the years. I'm willing to give anything a shot provided that the couple in question is willing to recognize me as clergy and that my serving as clergy for the service wouldn't be disrespectful to the spiritual path in question. (For example, for the Shinto ceremony I underwent the required ritual purifications, such as abstaining from meat and sex, for three days prior to the rite.)

 

And as I also noted earlier, as a marriage commissioner in this province I legally have to be prepared to marry gay couples. That's part of what all MCs do now, at least around these parts.

Share this post


Link to post

For me, that verse:

 

וְאֶת-זָכָר--לֹא תִשְׁכַּב, מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה:  תּוֹעֵבָה ,

הִוא

 

Has nothing to do with homosexuality, and everything to do with paganism. Look at the context:

 

And thou shalt not give any of thy seed to set them apart to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

 

 

Context is important. You can't just take one verse out of context and waggle it around. Those verses are about temple prostitutes, and gaining knowledge/forgiveness/enlightenment through sexual acts with sacred prostitutes. Similar to surviving Tantric practise. It has nothing, contextually, to do with a consensual, loving relationship.

 

I fail to understand how is one verse related to the other except for the fact that they are written one after the other unsure.gif

 

To me it seems clear

 

וְאֶת זָכָר לֹא תִשְׁכַּב מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה תּוֹעֵבָה הִוא"

 

ועונשו המקראי מפורש בהמשך "וְאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר יִשְׁכַּב אֶת זָכָר מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה תּוֹעֵבָה עָשׂוּ שְׁנֵיהֶם מוֹת יוּמָתוּ דְּמֵיהֶם בָּם

 

And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them

 

Now I dont think it is saying a damn thing about loving relationships nor that someone should pay any attention to old books, but to interpret the texts as you see fit, and to claim it is speaking only of paganism ??

I dont see how can you reach that conclusion blink.gif

Edited by The Evil Doer

Share this post


Link to post

I fail to understand how is one verse related to the other except for the fact that they are written one after the other unsure.gif

 

Because before the trend of creating "verses" it was all one paragraph. Also the wording, relates it to the prior sentences. Much like how in English grammar, if you begin a paragraph with "he" or "They" it refers to the subject of the last sentence or paragraph.

 

If you get your hands on an older Torah, like one no longer "fit" to be used in a synagogue, where they don't do the "Christianized" thing of breaking it up, it flows one into the other.

 

You'll note that in the Hebrew, it doesn't even start with a capital. It starts with , a comma, or in other versions -- וְ - which means and, and therefore, also, then, or rarely, yet.

 

[Hebrew reads <-- this way ]

 

I've done secular vows, Wiccan vows, more generally Pagan vows and Shinto vows. smile.gif I'm sure I could accommodate you! Come on up! It's not REALLY as cold up here as they all say it is! (Much.) xd.png.png

 

Shiny and I have been discussing moving when she gets out of treatment, because of the concern for the little ones and what happens when she passes. (Hopefully a long time from now.)

Edited by NobleOwl

Share this post


Link to post

Clarification for the people who can't wrap their heads around the concept of same-sex parents:

 

I have two moms. I have had two moms since I was 18 months old, and now I am 18 years old. I call them both Mom, Mama, Mommy, and Mother. THERE IS NO CONFUSION. Children are not stupid, and frankly anyone who thinks that they'd get all messed up because they have two moms is really bordering on idiotic to me. There's my Mama Kris and my Mama Kim. If I need a specific Mom, I use "Mama Kris" or "Mama Kim". If I just need someone to answer, it's usually "MOOOOOOM". Or I just approach them.

Seriously. It's that easy. I really wish people would think a little more before opening their mouths/posting silly claims.

 

 

And by the way, my moms did not "influence" me to be a lesbian. When I was little, I was very convinced I was straight. My moms even told me once that they would prefer if I was straight just so I wouldn't have to put up with the BS they had to go through and face, but that no matter who I was, they would love me no matter what.

I seriously don't understand how you consider that "influencing".

 

Oh, and by the way, someone PLEASE explain to me this whole "needs a father and a mother" bs? What the heck can a mother do that a father can't, or vice versa?!

Share this post


Link to post

Rabbis are required to be married. In the US, a ketubah requires a marriage license from the state. No ketubah? No marriage. No marriage? Not going to be a rabbi.

 

That's interesting. Why would they peg it to the state, though?

 

However, why is it that a significant portion of Jews don't agree with same-sex marriage?

 

 

"New York State voters support 54 - 40 percent a law allowing same-sex couples to marry, with voters under 35 supporting the measure 70 - 26 percent, according to a Quinnipiac University poll released today.

 

Jews support it 67 - 30 percent, while white Protestants oppose the measure 54 - 40 percent, the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University poll finds. Voters who say they have no religion support the measure 78 - 17 percent. "

 

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/institutes-and-c...?ReleaseID=1618

 

Share this post


Link to post

I saw this thread and I had to say something.

 

I am a bisexual Christian female. I don't believe that my religion (I'm more spiritual than religious, but whatever) says that same sex relations are wrong. I believe that people interpret it wrong. But that is my opinion, and I don't expect other people to see things the same way.

 

I do, however, believe that it is wrong to deny same sex couples the right to marriage. The way I see it, it's the same as segregation, with the whole "separate but equal thing" all those years ago. Same sex couples can have civil unions or domestic partnerships, but they can't always get married. It's just like segregation. And segregation was deemed unconstitutional in the end.

 

While those two statements above are beliefs, here is something I know:

The government - federal and/or state - does not have the right to tell people who they can and cannot marry. They cannot ban same sex marriages on the statement that it violates the sanctity of marriage - that would make it a religious matter, and the first amendment to the Constitution states that the government shall make no laws concerning religion.

I actually explain that here, in my blog: here

 

By not allowing same sex marriages, the government (state and/or federal) is also infringing upon the rights of same sex couples. If two grown adults consent to a marriage, then it should be legal. They can go before a judge and get married. The church does not need to be involved in any way, therefore it shouldn't be an issue.

 

That is just my opinion on the matter. I think we need to work more on matters that are important (e.g. our country's spending, other important laws concerning safety, etc). Surely there are matters to discuss that are more important than who should marry who.

Share this post


Link to post

That's interesting. Why would they peg it to the state, though?

 

Part of it had to do with the laws during immigration, especially pre-WWII and directly after. The state required Jews to affirm that they were married and not related in any way to their spouse. The state requirement gew out of that.

 

However, why is it that a significant portion of Jews don't agree with same-sex marriage?

 

A significant portion of Jews go with what they "think" Judaism teaches without any actual study into it. It's part of then problem with so many people claiming Judaism, but never having stepped foot in shul since bar/bat mitzvah or learned Hebrew enough to read independently.

 

That's why Jews are trying to push education so much more in the last five years (not same-sex marriage, specifically, but general ignorance)

Share this post


Link to post

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.