Marriage Equality and Other MOGAI/Queer Rights

[KageSora]

And I still don't have an answer from the first kid on why they quoted me in the first place - their post had nothing to do with what I'd said and I still don't know their opinion on it other than they like hitting the quote button. That would be you, KageSora.

???

 

I thought I responded to specific things in your post?

 

Tell me what I haven't responded to so I can?

[edwardelricfreak]

As for validation... why would you want validation from people who hate you?

I believe this was the question specifically for you.

[KageSora]

I believe this was the question specifically for you.

Ahhh, must have thought I covered that.

 

Re: validation from people who hate you:

 

Honestly, because if you can force them to admit that your identity is, in fact, completely valid then they really have no ground to stand on when hating you.

 

Additionally, sometimes forcing them to realize that who you are is just as valid as who they are can, in fact, change how they see you and get them to realize that hating you is actually not only pointless but harmful.

 

That, and not everybody who doesn't initially consider who you are valid actively hates you for it--they just haven't really thought about it enough and once you talk to them and interact with them they can acknowledge that who you are is just as valid as who they are without ever having gotten to the "I hate you for what you are" stage.

[Obscure_Trash]

Devil's advocacy isn't me playing with people's emotions.  If that's how you'd do it, then gosh, what an awful person you'd be.  And heads up - I didn't say you were an awful person, I said that anyone playing the devil's advocate for that reason is an awful person.

 

What I'm doing is giving your stance (the stance of the person I am countering) more clarity.

 

You should be grateful - someone on the internet not only actually cares what you think but is trying to figure out WHY you think it.  If you hate backing up your opinions so much, why do you even have one?

 

I'm not trying to "break" my target.  You people really don't understand other people very much if you think anyone with an opinion that differs from yours or conversational habits that aren't identical to how you talk is suddenly evil, bad, or otherwise out to get you.  Gee that sounds a whole lot like... prejudice.  I do however appreciate that fuzzy doesn't hate me.  I don't hate you either, I just find it disappointing when people don't actually read what I say.

 

And I still don't have an answer from the first kid on why they quoted me in the first place - their post had nothing to do with what I'd said and I still don't know their opinion on it other than they like hitting the quote button.  That would be you, KageSora.

 

TL;DR

What I'm doing with throwing out controversial opinions which I may or may not agree with (you guys really have no way of knowing) is seeing how you feel on a wider scale than just talking to people who do nothing but agree with you.  It's easy to believe something or feel something or have an opinion of something if everyone around you is saying the same thing.  And yes, I realize that many many people disagree with you to the point of causing psychotic breaks, suicide, ect. but my POINT is - how do you respond in a situation where the person disagreeing with you isn't being hateful or rude, but just... disagreeing.

 

I have to hand it to the thread though - while you do have a little bit of the knee-jerk reaction, you also do more thinking than just spouting diarrhea from your mouth when things don't go your way.  It helps that we are all protected from each other by the barrier of the internet.

 

Also - since we seem to want an all comprehensive name to the thread - why not make it "Controversial Rights" and get it over with?

Please don't tell me I have to be grateful to anyone, particularly not when someone deliberately toys with my emotions.

 

Getting clarity is: "I don't understand why marriage rights are so important, can someone explain?"

When you 'clarify' by going: "You shouldn't even want marriage rights. You're trying to hard. Just do [these extra 50 steps] instead. Geez." It's not asking for clarity, it's challenging people who are asking for and demanding equal rights. It's telling us you're not on our side - you're another potential danger to us. =\

 

Yeah, I do not appreciate anyone who looks down on the right for social justice. It's not just because they disagree with me. It's because they're fighting to uphold institutions of power which support the murder, torture, rape, and genocide of whole groups of people. And I refuse to be shamed out of standing up for equal rights.

 

We're quite aware of differing opinions without people playing "devil's advocate" us. We're quite aware of it because our parents or grandparents or friends scream it in our faces when we come out, when they disown us and kick us out of our homes. We're quite aware of it when we're fired from our jobs for it. We're quite aware of it when one of our own defends themselves from a hate crime and they are the one that gets jailed for it (see CeCe McDonald for one example). We're quite aware of it when strangers we've just met leer at us and threaten corrective rape. We don't NEED devil's advocates around to "help clarify". If you want clarification, ask questions, please.

 

When you come in talking about marriage equality saying "I don't see what's so hard about this, just do this [extra long, more work on us] workaround", you have merely touched the tip of the iceberg. The fight for rights and equality includes (these are USA-based stats):

-Anti-discrimination laws for jobs and schools (did you know, not every state protects you from being fired based upon your orientation/protects you from not being hired due to your orientation - 21 - and a mere 17 states have laws on this that extend to protecting trans people?). That's not even close to half the country. (I believe these are the most recent numbers. 21 might be up to 28.)

-Rates of suicide for GRSD people are higher than non-GRSD people, the highest being among bi women (46% - and note that 61% of bi women have been abused) and trans women (49% - and note that 98% of violence against trans people is targeted at trans women and 70% of them are trans women of color).

-GRSD people are much more likely to be raped or murdered. This rate is especially high for trans women of color (10x more likely to be murdered than the average person, facing a 1 in 12 chance of being murdered).

-GRSD youth, particular youth of color, make up a large percent of the homeless population (18% of trans youth being homeless even though only 1 in 1000 people is trans according to statistics)

-GRSD youth are also more likely to have problems with illegal drugs

-GRSD youth have much higher rates of depression than the average youth

-GRSD people are also more likely to contract an STI - there's less education and health care out there being provided to them

-GRSD people are more often survivors of abuse

 

All of these come down to how GRSD people are being treated. A system that tells us we are sick and wrong and that doesn't treat us as people is a system that justifies the violence we face everyday. And THAT is why we not only want, but NEED, "validation". Because if people continue to not accept us, these numbers will never go down. And that's not okay.

Edited May 17, 2014 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Asteimma]

Nice I love topics like this:) All for the topic, A+

[Kestra15]

But I hate hate hate categorising everyone.

Agreed. And the insistence that everyone feels should be categorized as well. Why not simply "I'm X, and I love Y," instead of convoluted massacres of language, idioms, and pronouns.

 

Honestly, so long as you respect the one you love, I don't care who it is.

[stupid_idiot_plant]

What is wrong with this world is that everything bad goes. You can not spank your kids anymore. You can not say prayer in school etc, etc.

 

It always worries me when people yearn for the days when you could hit kids and force your religion upon impressionable young minds. A child is a fraction of your size. If the only way you can get them to do what you want is by hitting them, then you are a horrible parent.

 

When I was growing up, we did not have the crime, kids killing kids or parents and all the rest of the bad stuff going on to day.

 

Yes you did. You just didn't always hear about it. Statistically, the world is getting less violent.

 

Religion has caused more war, violence, and bigotry than anything else in human history. The problem isn't that people don't hit kids enough. Come on.

[Moonlight_Eevee]

It always worries me when people yearn for the days when you could hit kids and force your religion upon impressionable young minds. A child is a fraction of your size. If the only way you can get them to do what you want is by hitting them, then you are a horrible parent.

I'm a Christian that is kind of laidback. I play video games and do some streams, but one thing you'll never here from me is you need to do this and you need to do that which it says in the Bible. If someone needs some advice or help, I'll gladly talk to them about it. I'm not one if the people who try to force my religion on others.

 

The thing is for me, I don't like this. In fact I hate it, but I do love the people. And the fact that the rainbow, a huge part of history from the Bible, is being defiled for human wants. For me, it is always a reminder of God's promise not to flood the Earth ever again. Not some people for gay pride. Why do you think we only see a rainbow only after it rains?

[Moonwick]

Why do you think we only see a rainbow only after it rains?

 

"A rainbow is a meteorological phenomenon that is caused by reflection, refraction and dispersion of light in water droplets resulting in a spectrum of light appearing in the sky. It takes the form of a multicoloured arc. Rainbows caused by sunlight always appear in the section of sky directly opposite the sun."

 

A rainbow, metaphorically speaking, can be used as anything someone wants it to mean because it is, in fact, just a pretty and colorful phenomenon in the sky. So great that it means that to you, but keep in mind that it is absolutely possible it could mean something different to someone else, or nothing at all.

 

Also, if you say we're "defiling" a rainbow with our "wants", then does that mean you're also angry about Skittles using rainbows for their advertisements? Or is it just gay people that makes you uncomfortable because we use a rainbow as symbolism for our flag? lol

Edited September 12, 2016 by Silverwinter

[Switch]

"A rainbow is a meteorological phenomenon that is caused by reflection, refraction and dispersion of light in water droplets resulting in a spectrum of light appearing in the sky. It takes the form of a multicoloured arc. Rainbows caused by sunlight always appear in the section of sky directly opposite the sun."

 

A rainbow, metaphorically speaking, can be used as anything someone wants it to mean because it is, in fact, just a pretty and colorful phenomenon in the sky. So great that it means that to you, but keep in mind that it is absolutely possible it could mean something different to someone else, or nothing at all.

 

Also, if you say we're "defiling" a rainbow with our "wants", then does that mean you're also angry about Skittles using rainbows for their advertisements? Or is it just gay people that makes you uncomfortable because we use a rainbow as symbolism for our flag? lol

bahahaha yeah isnt it worse "defiling" that skittles is selling and commercializing rainbow symbolism?? although ive never really thought that any religion had a monopoly on rainbows to begin with...

 

anyway the whole "oh being gay is a sin and i hate it but i dont hate the people for it " is like... comes off as really passive aggressive to me tbhhhh

Edited September 17, 2016 by Switch

[Wildmoon]

So, I have nothing wrong with someone choosing to be a christian. Or any other religion, actually. You're free to your own opinion, if you believe there's a god up there, then fine. No problem, you do you.

 

But what I do have a problem with, is when people say they "100% follow the teachings and rules of the bible", because frankly, thats bull.

That whole Leviticus thing about not lying with a man as you would a woman...

 

By using That quote from the bible, Do you agree with slavery being ok, too?

From the almighty bible of bull we have this lovely paragraph:

 

Leviticus 25:44 "And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have-from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves."

So basically, that would make it perfectly ok for me to buy one of you as a slave.

 

And I'm pretty sure plenty of christians eat prawns, shrimp, crab, lobster, ect, despite Leviticus also quoting that it's an "abomination unto you"

 

Also, the vicar of the local, christian, church actually supports gay rights. He is always friendly to me, even though he know's i'm gay, and he knows i'm not religious, in his words he basically said:

 

"yes. being gay is a sin, but I don't hate gays. Wether they get married does not affect me. It's not as if I'm going to wake up one morning and also be gay. They're not forcing us to be gay, it is their choice to sin and be gay, it doesn't mean that you're sinning, if you choose to befriend them, or support gay rights, ect, because you're not the gay one. Whilst I myself would not marry a gay couple - I see no problem with them being married by someone else. It is only fair you should get to be with the one you love"

 

well, he said a bit of a longer speech than that, but I tried to summarise it. So the basic thing is: no one's forcing YOU to sin, it's the other people that are sinning, and if they're happy to do so, what's the problem?

 

Personally, I don't believe it's a sin though, but if you do - fine, because I don't care. I'll be a happy little sinner and be happy with the woman I love.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Trickseh

[nekoinu525]

Oh hey there thread which I used to frequent...

 

~~~~~

 

Okay. Let me preface this post by saying that I'm a Christian.

 

I don't believe that being gay is a sin.

 

I believe that, if it were, God would have done something about it on one of the many occasions I cried out to Him over it.

I have been more interested in females than males since childhood. Originally, I thought it was normal, kids thinking that the opposite sex has cooties and whatnot. Then, as I got older, I began to realise that maybe I was different. Other girls were noticing boys. I would rather watch anime or roleplay with my friends.

Still, even with those friends, the girls were into boys, albeit fictional ones. I wasn't super into boys, but, to try to fit in, I found a few to talk about. (Seto Kaiba and Joey Wheeler from Yu-Gi-Oh...I ended up preferring them together. x3 Whoops...)

 

Then, I met a girl.

 

Suddenly I understood everything that everyone was talking about with this romance thing.

I met her after a church play that I was in and I was on an adrenaline high. We shared a mutual friend (who was also in the play) so we chatted for a bit while waiting for our friend to change out of costume. This girl was the most beautiful person I had ever seen, but as I talked to her, I realised that she was so much more.

We talked via telephone for a few weeks, with me falling more in love with each conversation. Eventually, I decided to take a chance and ask her out. She accepted and my life changed. She was my world. I thought she was perfect and I wanted to be with her forever. We were only together for a few months. She broke up with me via MySpace message. That sucked, but c'est la vie. There was worse, and better, to come.

 

Our mutual friend got really into church.

I was pretty into it, too, participating in everything, but I had nothing on her.

My friend decided to go with the church doctrine that being gay is bad...and so she told the youth group leader (we were all in the youth group at this time. I had just turned 18.) about my ex and I. My ex had started dating a boy in the youth group, so she was okay. I was forced out of church, though. They never said out loud that I wasn't welcome, but they made it clear in their actions. I left the church and I abandoned Christianity for a while. I couldn't move past the hurt the church had inflicted.

 

Luckily, through DC and other places on the internet, I found affirming Christians. They helped heal my wounds. Though, I didn't return to Christianity, and subsequently church, until late '13.

 

Now, when I started to return to Christianity, I struggled. Despite the wonderful affirming Christians I knew online, I still wasn't sure being gay was compatible with being a Christian. I mean, look at the Bible! So I prayed. If being gay was wrong, I wanted God to take it from me.

Nothing happened. I was still really gay. I mean, if anything, I was gayer than before.

 

And thus, I could only conclude that being gay is not a sin.

 

~~~~~

 

Anyhoo, sorry for the long wall-o'-text post... it's sort of in reply to the last few posts, but I think it could also stand alone... maybe..? Because those posts are over a month old, so I doubt anyone's waiting on a response to them...

Edited October 30, 2016 by nekoinu525

[sroo]

I think a religion has it's rights to deny the right of their marriage rituals to pairs it deems not suitable. (As Abrahamic religions (usually) don't want to marry gay couples). However a state or government can not deny that, as loving and living with some one does not affect the state, so shouldn't a marriage between those people. Every one has the right to marry whom ever they seem best fit.

 

I've always been against "state church" and/or other government institutions/laws that rely on a religion. Sure religion can give good moral guidance but it should have no place in modern politics. However a religion does not have to change it views on the world and marriage according to state policies.

 

 

[zorua9]

I do agree @sroo, a church should be able to deny a marriage if they wish (wether straight or homosexual), and state/government should be able to "sternly suggest" that the church be able to marry homosexual couples.......... (I probably phrased this poorly and offensively, which isn't my goal.)

 

If anyone doesn't know, Australia has recently done a "survey" that if it proved people want marriage equality that the government will push through to debate wether or not to vote to legalise equal marriage, and it worked, an overwhelming amount of people replied yes, it went through parliament as a yes as well and come this year marriage equality will come to Australia, and I am absolutely thrilled about this.

[HeatherMarie]

The Australia thing was all over my Facebook feed, I was so happy about that! I only know one person who lives there but she was very happy as well. ... And yet there continue to be places in the world where people can be jailed or even killed just for being gay. It amazes me how completely far apart some places are in terms of acceptance and social tolerance. 

 

I'm gay, and many of my friends are as well, but I do agree that religious institutions should not be forced to perform marriages that go against their beliefs. Religious places like churches and synagogues and whatever are considered holy spaces and 'safe' spaces for many many people, and the government should not screw with that by forcing them to do something against their teachings. However I also firmly believe that religion has no place in government, and that there should never be any law passed (or repealed) on the basis of religion.

[JavaTigress]

I have a question.... not SURE if this is the correct place to ask, but I thought folks on here might know. I noticed that a fellow DC forum user noted in sig that Xe, Xir Xem pronouns were preferred. I hate to sound IGNORANT BUT.... if I were to use those pronouns I'd LIKE to make certain I am using them correctly?

 

I presume that Xe would be used where he/she normally would? And that Xir would replace His/Her, and Xem would replace them? Or am I wrong?

Edited January 12, 2018 by JavaTigress

[brisingrrider1]

3 hours ago, JavaTigress said:

I presume that Xe would be used where he/she normally would? And that Xir would replace His/Her, and Xem would replace them? Or am I wrong?

Yep, that's correct. I included an example below:

Xe likely doesn't feel like other pronoun sets fit xem, so xir solution was this set.

They're pronounced just like they would if there was a z in front of them!

[DuskOfTheStars]

@JavaTigress

 

As brisingrrider1 said, those are correct. Don't worry about not knowing - you asked, and I'd say that's what counts. (The xe set's an alternate selling of the ze set, to expand on why they're prounced with 'z' if you were curious.)

 

(There's 2 topics talking about gender (Gender Identity Safe Space and Gender And Gender Identity in case you ever need the titles), but they got a bit buried. Apologies for not responding earlier - I didn't see this earlier, and sometimes I have issues coming up with what to say.)

Edited January 11, 2018 by DuskOfTheStars

[JavaTigress]

7 hours ago, brisingrrider1 said:

Yep, that's correct. I included an example below:

Xe likely doesn't feel like other pronoun sets fit xem, so xir solution was this set.

They're pronounced just like they would if there was a z in front of them!

Ah! OK! I wondered about how those would actually be SAID,

[Yubelchen]

I usually refer to people online with 'they'/'them' unless i know thier gender, saves the problem with most names you encounter and the guessing what to use. (also as a non-native english speaker, its easier for me. And here in germany we have no good sounding neutral pronoun)

 

And since i see @DuskOfTheStars with 'xe/xir/xem': Do you feel its rude when someone (like me) would use 'they'/'them' instead of your prefered pronouns? I mean, as a complete stranger, not as a friend.

(besides the fact that i would **** it up to 200% to use them correctly in more than 3 lines)

[DuskOfTheStars]

1 hour ago, Yubelchen said:

I usually refer to people online with 'they'/'them' unless i know thier gender, saves the problem with most names you encounter and the guessing what to use. (also as a non-native english speaker, its easier for me. And here in germany we have no good sounding neutral pronoun)

 

And since i see @DuskOfTheStars with 'xe/xir/xem': Do you feel its rude when someone (like me) would use 'they'/'them' instead of your prefered pronouns? I mean, as a complete stranger, not as a friend.

(besides the fact that i would it up to 200% to use them correctly in more than 3 lines)

 

They/them is cool if you remember that set better/prefer to use it to me. Same with most people I run into - they/them's considered the big neutral set. It's he/she/it sets that I personally have issue with, heh.

 

(Sorry for missing the ping earlier!)

[Yubelchen]

No problemo for missing the ping!

I understand and thank you for answering such a possible private question how you feel about it.

I´m still not sure what i prefer or what i am, for now, i simply dont care for myself, so i just hope nobody gets angry when i just use they to not make assumptions. (if i still do, everyone has the permission to slap me so i get it drilled into my brain)

[Gluria]

I'm a bi/pan woman from Germany, and even though I'm absolutely not interested in romantic relationships at the moment, I am very happy same-sex marriage is now possible in Germany.

 

I just do not understand the problem some people have with homosexuality. Never in my whole life have I heard a single good argument against it.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Gluria

[Gluria]

5 minutes ago, Ruby Eyes said:

I think you meant to say "is now possible in Germany"

 

Thank you!

[Kyath The Dream Worker]

Well, I realized I'm surely aromantic. But I'm still questionary too.

(I guess... maybe I am apothiromantic, asexual, genderfluid.)

 

I get annoyed when some idots keep rushing singles make gf/bf, treating them as losers. And people whining because they don't have girlfriend / boyfriend too.

Romantic relationships can't solve everything.

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by Kyath The Dream Worker