Abortion

[Rosedamai]

What I call 'irresponsible' is not taking advantage of whatever birth control is out there and available to prevent pregnancy in the first place, thereby preventing an abortion for the sake of convenience.

 

Can anyone agree with that statement above?

Agreed. But if they don't have the wits to figure that out, I wouldn't trust them to take care of any child. Hell, even my three hamsters take a lot of responsibility to properly care for, I can't imagine how much responsibility a child would need. Babysitting an already somewhat-grown kid is hard, and that's just for a day or so.

[LascielsShadow]

Abortion is gross though. Think about it for a minute.

 

Maybe so, but so what? Giving birth is gross, too. Ever see a baby covered in vernix caseosa ( a "cheesecake baby")? Can be seriously nasty, as can other birth-related stuff. Lots of things are gross. They're also necessary.

 

I remain thoroughly unimpressed by any and all real or alleged abortion photos. Surprise, a procedure that removes a developing fetus can result in bloody, unpleasant to look at things! I would *never* have imagined. I don't care much about the faked photos, or the ones that may be real but greatly enlarged. The thing that bothers me most is that there is portion of those photos which are real, but are of miscarried fetuses or fetuses that had to be aborted for medical reasons. I'm sure the grieving parents of said fetuses really appreciate a bunch of insensitive ***s using what are likely the only photos they have of their dead children in pro-life propaganda.

Edited August 17, 2012 by LascielsShadow

[MedievalMystic]

Actually, you did say that.

 

Allow me to be the first to congratulate you on your psychic powers. I've never met anyone on the planet that knew what was in my mind better than I do, and knows what I mean better than I do myself.

 

 

If you're not pro-choice when abortion is used as a primary method of birth control then I take you at your word that you're anti-choice. I don't see an inbetween there.

 

If you don't get what I was saying, and don't see a difference, there's no sense in trying to explain it any further.

 

 

 

However, I think what you meant was someone who knew how to get birth control, condoms, etc etc. (And knew how to use them, to) but didn't bother because they were lazy or they just thought they could get an abortion instead. To me, people like that are truly irresponsible, but not the ones who didn't have good sex ed or didn't know better.

 

Yes, this is exactly what I was talking about.

Edited August 17, 2012 by MedievalMystic

[~Kat~]

Maybe so, but so what?  Giving birth is gross, too. Ever see a "cheesecake baby"? *gags* Lots of things are gross. They're also necessary.

 

I remain thoroughly unimpressed by any and all real or alleged abortion photos. Surprise, a procedure that removes a developing fetus can result in bloody, unpleasant to look at things! I would *never* have imagined. I don't care much about the faked photos, or the ones that may be real but greatly enlarged. The thing that bothers me most is that there is portion of those photos which are real, but are of miscarried fetuses or fetuses that had to be aborted for medical reasons. I'm sure the grieving parents of said fetuses really appreciate a bunch of insensitive ***s using what are likely  the only photos they have of their dead children in pro-life propaganda.

Just wondering with some of the comments here if any of you have had children or like children, or never intend to have children? If so, I can understand why you make some comments you do,

 

As a mother who has given birth to two wonderful children who are now adults, I do not find a cheesecake baby gross or giving birth gross. This is a way of giving life, not killing or giving death.

 

The parents you refer to that miscarried fetuses or fetuses that had to be aborted for medical reasons and wanted their child, a lot of them I am sure would not mind if it changed a lot of minds that are having abortions, if it is not for those reasons, instead of

 

"What I call 'irresponsible' is not taking advantage of whatever birth control is out there and available to prevent pregnancy in the first place, thereby preventing an abortion for the sake of convenience". Yes, I am sure some never want to look at these pictures as it reminds them of their beloved child.

Edited August 17, 2012 by ~Kat~

[MedievalMystic]

"What I call 'irresponsible' is not taking advantage of whatever birth control is out there and available to prevent pregnancy in the first place, thereby preventing an abortion for the sake of convenience". Yes, I am sure some never want to look at these pictures as it reminds them of their beloved child.

 

It's late, I'm tired and maybe I missed something, but I'm not sure what my comment has to do with the situation you guys are discussing.. :S

 

And yeah, I have two boys, ages 20 and 23.

Edited August 17, 2012 by MedievalMystic

[~Kat~]

It's late, I'm tired and maybe I missed something, but I'm not sure what my comment has to do with the situation you guys are discussing.. :S

 

And yeah, I have two boys, ages 20 and 23.

Abortion.

 

Sleep well

[MedievalMystic]

Thanks. That really cleared things up. But whatever, I guess it really doesn't matter.

 

And I will. Thank you.

[LascielsShadow]

Just wondering with some of the comments here if any of you have had children or like children, or never intend to have children? If so, I can understand why you make some comments you do, 

 

As a mother who has given birth to two wonderful children who are now adults, I do not find a cheesecake baby gross or giving bith gross. This is a way of giving life, not killing or giving death.

 

The parents you refer to that miscarried fetuses or fetuses that had to be aborted for medical reasons and wanted their child, a lot of them I am sure would not mind if it changed a lot of minds that are having abortions, if it is not for those reasons, instead of

 

"What I call 'irresponsible' is not taking advantage of whatever birth control is out there and available to prevent pregnancy in the first place, thereby preventing an abortion for the sake of convenience". Yes, I am sure sopme never want to look at these pictures as it reminds them of their beloved child.

 

That's a matter of opinion, since different people find different things gross.

 

Really? You believe that parents who have endured the tragedy of either having to abort a wanted child or having that wanted child spontaneously miscarry might be happy to have photos of their dead children stolen and plastered on billboards, signs or pamphlets declaring that "abortion murders babies"? That doesn't strike you as likely to traumatise them further, or anger them that their personal tragedy is being used further the agenda of people who would probably have let the mother die? Even if they weren't pro-choice and therefore thought that abortion in any situation but theirs was wrong, I find it really unlikely that they'd be okay with their images being used without permission.

 

For the photos of miscarried fetuses, which have NOTHING to do with medically induced abortions, I can't even fathom that anyone would be remotely accepting of someone stealing a photo of their miscarried child and shouting to the world that it was the "victim" of an abortion, no matter their stance on the issue. I honestly can't wrap my head around the idea that someone whose miscarried fetus was used in pro-life propaganda would be perfectly fine with a miscarriage being falsely called an abortion, especially if it was a child they wanted. (I had an aunt who miscarried twins. I think that if they'd been developed enough to look like some of the "abortion" photos out there and someone had used them in propaganda, she'd have eviscerated the people who did it.)

 

Also, if a person is having an abortion, their fetus was probably not "beloved" (which is part of what the people who use those photos have a problem with, and something that is unlikely to change no matter how many photos of bloodied barbie parts and enlarged images of real aborted fetuses they wave around). If it was, then shoving such photos in their faces is horrifically insensitive at best. THAT is a huge part of why I object to the use of those photos, besides the blatant attempts at emotional manipulation.

Edited August 17, 2012 by LascielsShadow

[diannethegeek]

Allow me to be the first to congratulate you on your psychic powers. I've never met anyone on the planet that knew what was in my mind better than I do, and knows what I mean better than I do myself.

 

 

 

 

If you don't get what I was saying, and don't see a difference, there's no sense in trying to explain it any further.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, this is exactly what I was talking about.

I understood what you were trying to say. I'm suggeting that maybe you phrased it poorly.

[KageSora]

The parents you refer to that miscarried fetuses or fetuses that had to be aborted for medical reasons and wanted their child, a lot of them I am sure would not mind if it changed a lot of minds that are having abortions, if it is not for those reasons, instead of

I dunno, I know a lot of people would sure as hell mind if their tragedy was used as propaganda to guilt trip and scare people into doing something against their better judgment because other people disagree with them...

 

Not all of those people who lost their babies would have been pro-life, after all. Hell, some of them could be militant pro-choice people for all we know.

[Rosedamai]

The parents you refer to that miscarried fetuses or fetuses that had to be aborted for medical reasons and wanted their child, a lot of them I am sure would not mind if it changed a lot of minds that are having abortions, if it is not for those reasons, instead of

How do YOU know? You've taken a consensus? If my brother died of, say, drunk driving, I would NOT use pictures of his mutilated corpse to protest people who drink and drive. And that's for a non-controversial issue.

[~Kat~]

That's a matter of opinion, since different people find different things gross.

 

Really? You believe that parents who have endured the tragedy of either having to abort a wanted child or having that wanted child spontaneously miscarry might be happy to have  photos of their dead children stolen and plastered on billboards, signs or pamphlets declaring that "abortion murders babies"? That doesn't strike you as likely to traumatise them further, or anger them that their personal tragedy is being used further the agenda of people who would probably have let the mother die? Even if they weren't pro-choice and therefore thought that abortion in any situation but theirs, I find it really unlikely that they'd be okay with their images being used without permission. And for the photos of miscarried fetuses, which have NOTHING to do with medically induced abortions, I can't even fathom that anyone would be remotely accepting of someone stealing a photo of their miscarried child and shouting to the world that it was the "victim" of an abortion, no matter their stance on the issue.

 

Also, if a person is having an abortion, their fetus was probably not "beloved". If it was, then shoving such photos in their faces is horrifically insensitive at best.

The parents you refer to that miscarried fetuses or fetuses that had to be aborted for medical reasons and wanted their child, a lot of them I am sure would not mind if it changed a lot of minds that are having abortions, if it is not for those reasons, instead of

 

"What I call 'irresponsible' is not taking advantage of whatever birth control is out there and available to prevent pregnancy in the first place, thereby preventing an abortion for the sake of convenience". Yes, I am sure some never want to look at these pictures as it reminds them of their beloved child.

 

Please re-read what I posted up above, I do believe I covered what you posted below.

 

Some that have abortions because they are to lazy to use precautions, and know better, why should they care? They did not care enough to use anything. Some of have said on here the pictures do not bother them, remember!!!

 

The only way I would have ever of had an abortion is if my life was in danger, or the child was going to be so badly afflicted from something. Even if I had ever been raped, no matter what race, I would keep my child. So if I feel like this, I know others must. Not all though, and I covered that up above. I would not mind a picture of my aborted baby out there if it could help someone to use something and to avoid having an abortion.

Edited August 17, 2012 by ~Kat~

[Rosedamai]

The parents you refer to that miscarried fetuses or fetuses that had to be aborted for medical reasons and wanted their child, a lot of them I am sure would not mind if it changed a lot of minds that are having abortions, if it is not for those reasons, instead of

No, seriously, you keep saying this, but there's no statistics or whatever to prove it. For no matter what reason, you do NOT use someone's personal photos to prove a point without asking them first.

[KageSora]

No, seriously, you keep saying this, but there's no statistics or whatever to prove it. For no matter what reason, you do NOT use someone's personal photos to prove a point without asking them first.

This, so much.

 

Now, if those parents were approached and gave their consent, that's one thing. But to use them without permission? That's just never okay.

[LascielsShadow]

I honestly don't think that it would be "a lot". Some, yes, but not many. Why would most people going through something as awful as having to abort a child they want, a trauma that is significantly greater than a voluntary, early-term abortion, want their child used in scare tactics to try and make people be more responsible about using birth control? I fail to see what one even has to do with the other. Wanting/having a child does not preclude one from being pro-choice, and certainly not from being pro choice for everyone regardless of how they became pregnant. "I had to abort a child I desperately wanted" is not immediately and logically followed by "so I will use my personal tragedy to encourage people to use birth control in order to prevent unwanted pregnancies and abortions." "I had a miscarriage through no fault of my own" is even less logically followed by it.

 

Emotionally manipulating people is not helpful in any way, regardless of the source of the images. Convincing someone to keep a baby she doesn't want by scaring or guilt-tripping her is reprehensible. The choice is hard enough for some women without adding the attempts to make them feel like terrible people.

Edited August 17, 2012 by LascielsShadow

[DarkLadyNyara]

What I call 'irresponsible' is not taking advantage of whatever birth control is out there and available to prevent pregnancy in the first place, thereby preventing an abortion for the sake of convenience.

 

Can anyone agree with that statement above?

Oh god, the "convenience and irresponsibility" thing again. Where the hell did this meme start, and why won't it die? Abortions are not "convenient." They cost money, for starters (the average cost in the US is about $450- not exactly pocket change), then there's the time and hassle of setting up an apointment, the time taken up by the procedure itself (which isn't exactly fun), and then dealing with recovery (which, incidentally, takes sex off the table for at least a week.). And that's even if you don't have to walk through a crowd of the smug and self-righteous just to get into the damn clinic. But we're supposed to believe a substantial number of people get abortions because they looked at all the options and decided it was easiest?

 

The only way I would have ever of had an abortion is if my life was in danger, or the child was going to be so badly afflicted from something. Even if I had ever been raped, no matter what race, I would keep my child

 

Good for you. But just because you would make that choice doesn't mean other people should be forced to.

 

(Personally, there is no way in hell I'd willingly carry to term. But I don't go around telling pregnant women that they should abort.)

Edited August 17, 2012 by DarkLadyNyara

[AngelKitty]

Oh god, the "convenience and irresponsibility" thing again. Where the hell did this meme start, and why won't it die? Abortions are not "convenient." They cost money, for starters (the average cost in the US is about $450- not exactly pocket change), then there's the time and hassle of setting up an apointment, the time taken up by the procedure itself (which isn't exactly fun), and then dealing with recovery (which, incidentally, takes sex off the table for at least a week.). And that's even if you don't have to walk through a crowd of the smug and self-righteous just to get into the damn clinic.

Don't forget the ultrasounds that are now mandatory in many states. And some of those are the invasive trans-vaginal kind. And in some cases they force you to look at and listen to a detailed description of the fetus, and listen to its heartbeat.

 

They're not just inconvenient, they can be downright torturous for a woman already struggling with that decision, thanks to anti-choice laws.

[ShinyTomato]

Has anyone ever looked at pictures of an aborted fetus?

 

I've looked at pictures of an aborted fetus. I've also held one.

 

Just wondering with some of the comments here if any of you have had children or like children, or never intend to have children? If so, I can understand why you make some comments you do, smile.gif

 

Two, with no plans for more. A daughter, Kai, birthed by me, and a son, Pitivo birthed by Nascha.

 

I do not find a cheesecake baby gross or giving birth gross. This is a way of giving life, not killing or giving death.

 

I do. Giving life can be just as if not more ugly than death. And I'm a licensed midwife, I've been to more births than I care to count.

 

The parents you refer to that miscarried fetuses or fetuses that had to be aborted for medical reasons and wanted their child, a lot of them I am sure would not mind if it changed a lot of minds that are having abortions

 

Have you ever talked to one? Have you ever asked their opinion of such a thing? That's a very wild assumption to make.

 

Even if I had ever been raped, no matter what race, I would keep my child

 

Even if you knew your child would never live a happy life because you chose not to abort? Even if by forcing life on them, you were ensuring that they would be tormented for the rest of their lives and eternally believe themselves evil? Even if you knew they'd attempt suicide at five by drinking bleach?

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

No, seriously, you keep saying this, but there's no statistics or whatever to prove it. For no matter what reason, you do NOT use someone's personal photos to prove a point without asking them first.

For the record, at least one woman whose photo was used without her consent successfully sued. And the story that was attached to that image in the anti-choice campaign was completely untrue; it was the image of a foetus that had died in the womb, which she had then had to carry to term. A ghastly business, and not helped by seeing your dead baby (this was in fact a much wanted baby) plastered over billboards with a lie attached.

 

brairtrainer,

 

I was trying to find a good medical site. When I have more time, I will try. It would be nice if anyone else could come up with a good site like that if you can.

Foetus photos in the womb.

 

Rather better than aborted ones, which can be so easily manipulated by Right-to lifers.

Edited August 17, 2012 by fuzzbucket

[DarkLadyNyara]

For the record, at least one woman whose photo was used without her consent successfully sued. And the story that was attached to that image in the anti-choice campaign was completely untrue; it was the image of a foetus that had died in the womb, which she had then had to carry to term. A ghastly business, and not helped by seeing your dead baby (this was in fact a much wanted baby) plastered over billboards with a lie attached.

I wish I could say I was surprised by that. At least her lawsuit was sucessful.

 

Has anyone ever looked at pictures of an aborted fetus?

Yeah, I have. Mostly, they aren't very impressive- the vast majority of abortions are performed in the first trimester. (I've also seen pictures of stillbirths and late-term miscarriages passed off as aborted fetuses, as well as some truly remarkable acheivements in photoshop. Make of that what you will.)

 

Not that it would matter to me even if the majority of abortions did look like "pro-life" propaganda. No amount of blood and gore and "it's a (potential) BABY" will ever disgust me as much as the notion of forcing someone to carry to term and give birth against their will.

[Kestra15]

I do. Giving life can be just as if not more ugly than death. And I'm a licensed midwife, I've been to more births than I care to count.

You get more awesome every time you post. And your kids have cool names.

 

I might actually start pestering you while I train as an RN, since you seem to cover everything I won't :~P (Don't worry, I won't actually bombard you with PMs).

Edited August 17, 2012 by Kestra15

[prairiecrow]

Even if I had ever been raped, no matter what race, I would keep my child.

Wait, whoa, whoa, stop...

 

What the heck does race have to do with anything?

[ShinyTomato]

You get more awesome every time you post. And your kids have cool names.

 

I might actually start pestering you while I train as an RN, since you seem to cover everything I won't :~P (Don't worry, I won't actually bombard you with PMs).

 

Haha. Well thank you. <3

 

Kai means "Willow," and Pitivo means "Smooth rock" in Navajo and Romani respectively.

[Syaoransbear]

Wait, whoa, whoa, stop...

 

What the heck does race have to do with anything?

I second this.

[Rosedamai]

Wait, whoa, whoa, stop...

 

What the heck does race have to do with anything?

Third this.