Abortion

[Kestra15]

And how do you know it isn't alive?

What is the scientific and biological definition of life?

Except for the reproduction (and it will be able to reproduce when it grows older), a fetus is alive. Unless you wish to argue whether it is 'ensouled' or not, and that is a very tricky subject.

You're a vegan then?

Ah, but isn't that one of the most heated topics on abortion? When does it stop being a lump of cells and when does it start being 'life'?

Spot on. And since we don't have a point at which life begins that is universally, scientifically accepted, hence the debate. You may of course believe life begins at conception, that is your right. However, be aware that it's not as simple as conception -> baby.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Kestra15

[SkylerFarrier]

I'll choose a fully functioning, fully realized, suffering woman over a lump of cells which may or may not become a child any day of the week.

 

I challenge you to tell a woman who's been raped (and who wants to abort) that she must carry her rapist's child to term, and to enforce it, and then deal with them on a daily basis during the following months -- to see their anguish and their suffering, their grief and their despair, their fear and their disgust. To live that horrible journey along with them, without flinching and without looking away. To say they "should" do such a thing is one thing; to actually witness the aftermath is something else entirely.

Already done. That is my grandmother. And she put him up for adoption the moment he was born.

I challenge YOU to tell the offspring of rape, or a failed abortion, that they are at fault for their mother's suffering and should never have ever been born; that they are better off dead.

[Vhale]

Not sure if there are any other Farkers here, but there was a very snarky followup to an abortion topic a day or so ago that followed the whole, is it alive thing. The following story as thus:

 

Original Link

 

Update: Whenever I get into an abortion/"when does life begin" debate with someone, I always throw this simple hypothetical at them:

 

    You're in a burning building with a 5-year old child and a canister of a dozen frozen fertilized human eggs. You only have time to save one of them. What do you do?

 

    If you choose the canister, congratulations; you're not a hypocrite. You can feel proud of your ideological purity as you're carted off to jail for negligent homicide.

 

    If you choose the child, good for you; you recognize that the life of a living, breathing, self-aware child is worth at least 12 times as much as the "life" of a tiny spec of organic matter.

 

    And what's the cut-off point? What about 50 fertilized eggs? What about 100? 1,000? 10,000? If you choose to save the child's life over "saving" a whole freezer-full of fertilized human eggs, you're admitting that the kid is a human life, but fertilized eggs are not.

 

    Of course, the response to this is invariably "that's a ludicrious situation that would never happen. It's not as simple as that!"

 

    To which I reply, "You're absolutely right. It's NEVER that simple. Life doesn't work that way; pregnancy, and how to handle it, is the most private, personal, emotional decision a woman can make, and isn't subject to anyone else's value judgments. Which is why it's not something that should be legislated."

 

The snark came in the follow-up comments:

Original Comments

 

Vodka Zombie [TotalFark]

  2012-08-15 08:33:32 AM

Pocket Ninja: DammitIForgotMyLogin: Pocket Ninja: Not that I'm arguing with the basic premise of that example, but I don't understand why I couldn't take the canister under one arm, take the child's hand with my other, and save them both.

 

Peanut Gallery1: It's a heavy canister, and i've just broken both of your child's legs with a baseball bat

 

Pocket Ninja: Wait, you're there too? Fine, I draw my Glock and force you to pick up the canister and march you out while I carry my child on my back. Then I Glock-whip you.

 

Peanut Gallery2: But, nobody likes your child. Hopefully, in that canister, one of the dozen potential kids in there might not turn out to be a dick.

 

Do you keep the child you have, or do you gamble for a better one?

 

Pocket Ninja: Oh, I completely agree, and I know he's a little ----. But until I find out for sure that the ones in the canister aren't all equally bad (like, they might all be girls or something), it just makes practical sense to keep him around. Always cover all your bases. And anyway, there's always another fire or guy with a baseball bat around to take care of him if a good replacement opportunity presents itself.

 

Peanut Gallery3: An even funner twist: the power is out in the region and the fertilized eggs will die at room temperature. Does every woman in the area age 15-45, including your own family, have a moral responsibility to implant the eggs and carry them to term? After all, the eggs are human beings and we all should do everything possible to help them survive, right?

 

I admit it. I laughed.

[prairiecrow]

Already done. That is my grandmother. And she put him up for adoption the moment he was born.

I challenge YOU to tell the offspring of rape, or a failed abortion, that they are at fault for their mother's suffering and should never have ever been born; that they are better off dead.

I'd never do such a vicious thing, but there are certainly people who do that to such children anyway (which is, IIRC, one of the causes of the disgracefully high suicide rate among foster children).

 

And what about cases where the unwanted child DOES bring about poverty and misery because the mother/parents didn't want it and can't afford to take care of it? What about the thousands of children who are abandoned to suffer in the adoption system? Doesn't all that pain amount to something that should be avoided if possible?

 

A rape baby might be a blessing in some rare circumstances, but to say that ALL women should endure such an ordeal is, to me, an extremely cruel and needless proposition. Under those circumstances I believe that a woman who has already had her right to choose brutally violated MUST have choice concerning her reproductive status.

Edited August 16, 2012 by prairiecrow

[SkylerFarrier]

I'd never do such a vicious thing, but there are certainly people who do that to such children anyway (which is, IIRC, one of the causes of the disgracefully high suicide rate among foster children).

 

And what about cases where the unwanted child DOES bring about poverty and misery because the mother/parents didn't want it and can't afford to take care of it? What about the thousands of children who are abandoned to suffer in the adoption system? Doesn't all that pain amount to something that should be avoided if possible?

 

A rape baby might be a blessing in some rare circumstances, but to say that ALL women should endure such an ordeal is, to me, an extremely cruel and needless proposition.

And yet you want me to say such horrible things to a woman already suffering. I never claimed she should enjoy it, but do you check advice columns? Have discussions with therapists about general mental health issues?

A life, once taken, cannot be restored. Many women, after their abortion, suffer from their choice and wish to do it over.

On that topic, have you read the book "Unwind"? It deals with this exact issue in a future where "pro-life" and "pro-choice" go to war, eventually reaching a completely asinine (from our perspective) agreement from a sarcastic remark by a third neutral party.

[Kestra15]

Many women, after their abortion, suffer from their choice and wish to do it over.

Source please.

[SkylerFarrier]

Source please.

College Psychology textbooks. If you wish me to give the exact one my class used, and not the ones I found in my Psych major aunt and uncle's house, I regretfully cannot do that.

Advice columns.

Conversations with the assorted therapists I've had. On that note, some of my issues can be attributed to the fact that my father's birth mother wants nothing to do with him or his family. Are you going to suggest that he should have been aborted to spare me and him this slight pain in a wonderous world?

[Kestra15]

College Psychology textbooks. If you wish me to give the exact one my class used, and not the ones I found in my Psych major aunt and uncle's house, I regretfully cannot do that.

Advice columns.

Conversations with the assorted therapists I've had. On that note, some of my issues can be attributed to the fact that my father's birth mother wants nothing to do with him or his family. Are you going to suggest that he should have been aborted to spare me and him this slight pain in a wonderous world?

No, I'm just wondering how you're going to substantiate such a claim, given that this thread involves social workers, nurses, and those with extremely personal experiences, all of which have thus far said the exact opposite.

[diannethegeek]

College Psychology textbooks. If you wish me to give the exact one my class used, and not the ones I found in my Psych major aunt and uncle's house, I regretfully cannot do that.

Advice columns.

Conversations with the assorted therapists I've had. On that note, some of my issues can be attributed to the fact that my father's birth mother wants nothing to do with him or his family. Are you going to suggest that he should have been aborted to spare me and him this slight pain in a wonderous world?

You seem to be confusing pro-choice with pro-abortion. No one is suggesting that your father should have been aborted, merely that your grandmother and all women should have the choice to abort if they want to.

[Fuzzbucket]

And yet you want me to say such horrible things to a woman already suffering. I never claimed she should enjoy it, but do you check advice columns? Have discussions with therapists about general mental health issues?

A life, once taken, cannot be restored. Many women, after their abortion, suffer from their choice and wish to do it over.

On that topic, have you read the book "Unwind"? It deals with this exact issue in a future where "pro-life" and "pro-choice" go to war, eventually reaching a completely asinine (from our perspective) agreement from a sarcastic remark by a third neutral party.

And many women are deeply relieved. And many women bitterly regret having given birth - some even women who thought they wanted that child.

 

Anecdotal tales mean nothing. And the ADOPTION SYSTEM IS BROKEN.

 

I have worked in the health services for years and know many therapists and counsellors well. I don't know ONE who would take your line. Not one single one.

 

BY the time someone writes to an advice column they are already in pain. The people - myriads of them - who do NOT have issues don't write in. Amazing but true. And I have seen many advice columns where woman have bitterly regretted having had children and keeping them, and also having had children and giving them up.

 

I am sorry to see such a closed mind here, to be honest. You don't have to HAVE an abortion, but I am sad that you would deny the choice to others who do not share your view.

[SkylerFarrier]

No, I'm just wondering how you're going to substantiate such a claim, given that this thread involves social workers, nurses, and those with extremely personal experiences, all of which have thus far said the exact opposite.

So my extremely personal experience is invalidated, simply because I am outnumbered?

Even if the majority rules, the minority still has the right to their opinion.

[Kestra15]

So my extremely personal experience is invalidated, simply because I am outnumbered?

Even if the majority rules, the minority still has the right to their opinion.

No, just that you are, as you said, the minority. You said 'many women' initially, now you say you are the minority. You said 'many women' and yet so far, most women I have met/heard of/seen in case studies/reports show the opposite - that it is a smaller percentage of women who actually would go back and do it again. So no, yours is not invalidated by any means - it is simply, as you said, the minority.

 

Interesting that thus far you seem to believe only in absolutes though.

[Snowytoshi]

Have discussions with therapists about general mental health issues?

Actually I'd imagine that quite a few people here do. Who knows- some of them might have been raped.

 

Some people have extreme phobias of being pregnant, would you force them to go through that trauma? If you were raped would you want to carry a child through nine months of labour, well overcoming the psychological trauma of being raped? Being raped can cause suicidal thoughts, multiple personality disorder, and a lasting sense of insecurity- now add a child to the mix.

 

I personally would never want to inflict that on a living, breathing, conscious woman. If you were placed in all the scenarios that a woman requesting abortion might be in, would you choose to keep the child? If you can't see yourself doing what you're requesting others to do, then I'd like to hear a concrete reason about what makes them different from you.

[Zaxian]

Ah, but isn't that one of the most heated topics on abortion? When does it stop being a lump of cells and when does it start being 'life'?

Yep, I agree. And I personally draw the line at roughly the same point the law does (which is approximately the point where a fetus becomes viable without extreme medical care).

 

Were I in the position where I was pregnant and decided to abort (for whatever reason) then it's my right to make that choice (about a lump of cells in MY body). If you find yourself in that position, then it's your right to keep it. But please don't attempt guilt trip, coerce or force me into keeping said lump of cells because of your ideology - it's my body, not yours.

[AngelKitty]

So my extremely personal experience is invalidated, simply because I am outnumbered?

Even if the majority rules, the minority still has the right to their opinion.

Your extremely personal experience is just that - an extremely personal experience. It's individual to you and your family, and you and your family ALONE. Every woman and every family who has to deal with the same situation is going to deal with it differently and feel differently about it, and it is in no way possible to say that because YOUR grandmother did something, every other woman should do the same, or that your grandmother's choice is the only right one for everyone.

 

You have a right to your beliefs and opinions. You don't, however, have a right to force everyone else to live by those beliefs and opinions.

 

Ah, but isn't that one of the most heated topics on abortion? When does it stop being a lump of cells and when does it start being 'life'?

 

To me, it fully becomes a person when it's capable of surviving outside the womb, when there's no doubt that it will become a child, and not a tumor or something else. At that point, I consider abortion for any other reason aside from saving the mother's life to be immoral.

 

And, most abortions that occur at that point ARE for the purpose of saving the mother's life, and they're heartbreaking for the mother, who WANTED that child. Your average woman isn't going to carry a fetus for seven months and then decide "oh, I don't want it" and have an abortion.

[IsmaielDeath]

Just seeing news about that.

 

Really? They kill doctors because they abort babys (legally)? What crude logic is this? 'They kill so we can kill them too!' ? Just horrible...

 

 

I would wish those people a situation where they are forced to decide between their health and life and the life of their unborn child. Maybe they would be less radical when they would have been in the same situation at least once.

 

Nothing against demonstrating... but not to this degree and not in front of those clinics.

I'm against people killing animals for fur and fun and that animals get better living standards. Yes I demonstrate too. But I don't threat to murder someone or insult people working in those farms. They usually would work anywhere else also and are not the problem.

 

I'll so angry hearing about all this. My hands are litterally shaking as I write this. How can someone really think it would be okay to kill some doctor for dooing his job? Do they run aroud shooting soldiers too? Because it is the job of a soldier to kill a foe? And what to do with the killers? Kill them too ecause they killed someone? That is insane..

 

I know a women that was 'forced' into abortion too. She would be jobless and most likely homeless now if she had not.

Her fiancé and she both wanted the child till he decided he would like another women to be the mother of his children. So he left her. Her family(mother) wasn't approving of that... telling her how stupid she was to get a child from that unresponsible guy and that she had no part in the family anymore.

Her boss would have used some bad excuse to fire her as he had done before with other workers he didn't like anymore. In that hard time she had to decide what to do with the rest of her life. She knew what would happen when the child got in a orphanage (as her mother - yeah the old heartless dragon I mentioned - before worked in one!) so she decided to get a abortion. I know how shaken she was. And that was an almost 'normal' situation. What is with women getting raped?

 

I can fully understand why she did it. I think I would have done the same if I was her.

I know how many children growing up/living in orphanages turn out from another friend (she lived near one and played with those kids as child, became friends with them).

Some try suicide and many more become criminal.

From her 13 friends she knew back than 6 tried suicide. 4 of them succeeded while she(and they) were still in school. One got over his depression and the other killed himself recently. From the other 7: 4 are in jail right now. For mayhem, sexual abuse and one for murder. 2 Vanished without a trace from the orphanage (at age 13 and 15). Just 3 of them live a halfway normal life. Why halfway? Because the one that tried suicide is now paralyzed past his hip and hates himself for it. The other two don't want any children at all because they know they never learned to be a (good)parent.

All I hear of orphanages is that they are hell on earth. And that even IF the personnel is nice. I don't want to know how much worse it would be if you have the 'luck' to land in one where the people treat you like trash.

 

You have all right to think abortion is wrong. You have the right to demonstrate against it and offer a better solution (yes I also mean better than orphanages, as I don't think american orphanages are so much better than west european ones).

You don't have the right to terrorize woman in a harsh situation with screaming 'Mommy lef me live!' or something like that. You definitely don't have the right to threaten to murder someone or to threaten them with violence in any way.

 

 

I really hope I didn't step on too many peoples toes.

[ShinyTomato]

I have very strong opinions and believe abortion is flat-out MURDER unless there is a rock-hard reason for it.

 

Is it then, in your opinion, murder to remove a tumor?

 

I don't care if it was rape, put the child up for adoption.

 

That requires you to survive through the pregnancy, which as a rape victim who had a child by her rapist, is one of the hardest things in the world to do.

 

If abortion was the norm 50 years ago, I would not be here.

 

The abortion rate has not really changed since the 1800s. Next.

 

put the child up for adoption.

 

Only 2-3% of kids placed in the system are adopted. The rest stay in the system until they die or age out, statistically going through at least one abusive foster home.

 

Further, adoption is prohibitively expensive:

 

Average cost for pre-natal doctor's visits: 1,862-3,543

Ultrasound: $100-400 for the cheap ones. From $500 up if complications are involved.

Pre-natal tests: $1,100-$2,000 assuming standard tests only and no reason for more expensive ones.

Vaginal delivery without complication: $6,200 -$7,500

Vaginal delivery with complication: $8,200 - $10,500

C-section without complication: $11,500 - $13,000

C-section with complication = $15,500 - $ 18,200

Hospital stay: $4,000 - $6,000

Neonatal and pediatric care: $900 - $2,000 (no complications)

Neonatal and pediatric care: 1,500 -4,000 (with complications)

 

Average cost to give a child up for adoption, with fees included, at birth, not including all the above $7,000-10,000

 

And how do you know it isn't alive?

 

Alive does not make it a person. A fetus can still become a tumor, aparasitic mass, or be reabsorbed until after the legal cut off for abortion. There is no guarantee it will become a baby.

 

nless you wish to argue whether it is 'ensouled' or not, and that is a very tricky subject.

 

Not if you know Hebrew.

 

And I've been abused by them. Would I rather be dead? HELL NO.

 

The majority of children in foster care disagree with you.

 

1 in 3 will tell a social worker that they wish they had been aborted. 16% of those under 12 will attempt to commit suicide and fail. another 9% will succeed. Of those that fail, 86% will attempt again, even if removed from the foster family they were with at the time. In foster kids 12-18, 82% will attempt suicide before aging out, of those who do not die prior to reaching 18. in 94% of these cases, they will state that they wish they had never been born, or wish they had been aborted.

 

(United States Child Protective Services Inter-State Study of Child Welfare in Foster Care, 2010)

 

Ah, but isn't that one of the most heated topics on abortion? When does it stop being a lump of cells and when does it start being 'life'?

 

"Life" is different from "human" is different from "baby." If a 22 week fetus becomes a tumor, it will still have a heartbeat, it will still be alive, it is the same in all ways but one -- it can no longer become a person.

 

I was supposed to be a twin. My identical twin became a parasitic mass that years later killed my mother. My sister, in all ways, was still alive.

 

And what makes it "innocent?" Twins will kill each other in utero, if they can, sometimes even eating the other.

 

I challenge YOU to tell the offspring of rape, or a failed abortion, that they are at fault for their mother's suffering and should never have ever been born; that they are better off dead.

 

People HAVE told my daughter this, and will tell her this, and it is something she struggles with, at her very young age, even now. She has told me multiple times that she sometimes wishes she was never born. It is something she has to deal with,

 

I have to deal with my hatred toward my own mother for not aborting me. Can I forgive her for it? No. Do I have to deal with the fact that I am considered my mother's murderer? Yes.

 

A life, once taken, cannot be restored. Many women, after their abortion, suffer from their choice and wish to do it over.

 

Many, yes, but this is, in fact, the minority. More women regret giving children up for adoption, or choosing not to abort than regret an actual abortion. A life, once given, cannot be taken away either.

 

So my extremely personal experience is invalidated, simply because I am outnumbered?

Even if the majority rules, the minority still has the right to their opinion.

 

No, your experience is not invalidated, you do have a right to your opinion, but when you're talking about the law and tossing around anecdotes as facts, you need to source.

 

Have discussions with therapists about general mental health issues?

 

Yes, I do. I am, after all, a social worker with a degree in psychology, who works as an "other options" counselor. I am also a rape victim who carried to term, someone who works in the foster and adoption systems for the state.

 

You made a point of saying that a life, once taken, cannot be given again -- a life, one given cannot be taken either. Who are you to say that it is better for a child to be brought into the world? Should it not be the parent's choice as to what is in the best interest of the child?

 

 

[prairiecrow]

And yet you want me to say such horrible things to a woman already suffering. I never claimed she should enjoy it, but do you check advice columns? Have discussions with therapists about general mental health issues?

1) That first sentence doesn't make much sense to me in the context of our conversation.

 

2) Advice columns? Yes. Your point being?

 

3) I've been in therapy for treatment-resistant depression for going on twenty-five years, and have done extensive research into various topics surrounding that subject (including PTSD and trauma), so: Yes.

[KageSora]

I challenge YOU to tell the offspring of rape, or a failed abortion, that they are at fault for their mother's suffering and should never have ever been born; that they are better off dead.

You realize there are, in fact, people who wish their parents had aborted them because they was how much they were unwanted and hated because they were the result of rape, right? Or that their mother didn't get an abortion for some reason but they wish she had because they'd never have wanted to be born if they had been given that choice?

 

Many women, after their abortion, suffer from their choice and wish to do it over.

There are women, too, who after giving birth with they could have gone back and aborted--and even tell their offspring to their faces that they wish they'd aborted them.

 

So my extremely personal experience is invalidated, simply because I am outnumbered?

Even if the majority rules, the minority still has the right to their opinion.

Why should the majority be restricted by the minority, when if the majority have their way the minority are not harmed at all? You could easily not abort if you don't want to get one. That doesn't mean I should be forced to turn over all rights to my body because I was forced into bearing a child.

[MedievalMystic]

I'm pro-choice for the most part. The only time I'm not pro-choice if it means abortion is the prime method of birth control. That's just...wrong to me.

[Snowytoshi]

I'm  pro-choice for the most part.  The only time I'm not pro-choice if it means abortion is the prime method of birth control.  That's just...wrong to me.

Agreed. If your mindset is 'oh I don't need protection because if I get pregnant I'll just get an abortion' well... I suppose that would be their choice, but I'd find it unsettling to say the least.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Snowytoshi

[Kestra15]

Agreed. If your mindset is 'oh I don't need protection because if I get pregnant I'll just get an abortion' well... I suppose that would be their choice, but I'd find it unsettling to say the least.

Agreed.

[KageSora]

Agreed. If your mindset is 'oh I don't need protection because if I get pregnant I'll just get an abortion' well... I suppose that would be their choice, but I'd find it unsettling to say the least.

This, very much so.

 

That said, though... Those are also some of the people I'd least trust with a child.

[diannethegeek]

I'm pro-choice for the most part. The only time I'm not pro-choice if it means abortion is the prime method of birth control. That's just...wrong to me.

I don't mind that you disagree with their mindset, but the fact that you'd take their choice away and force a child on someone who's either irresponsible or incredibly naive is a little more wrong to me.

[Rosedamai]

Oh, spare me the "abortion is murder put it up for adoption" c***. Seriously this annoys me to no end.

 

You even know how unmarried pregnant women are treated like in patriarchal societies? Nooo? I thought so. Yes there are plenty of places where just BEING pregnant AND unmarried is a huge social stigma. You can-

1. Be criticized for your "promiscuity" and sexual habits by complete strangers everywhere

2. Be kicked out from school

3. Lose your job-and never manage to get another one that was equal to what you've had, maybe a job at McDonalds

4. Be a frequent victim of sexual violence, because hey, "she was loose so it doesn't matter"

5. Be persecuted by the authorities

 

Oh, and yesterday I got a papercut. It probably killed some of my skin and blood cells. Yes they were alive. I'm now officially a murderer.

 

*snort*

 

Did I mention that I have monthly periods too, and so I kill off alive egg cells that could have been fertilized and become human? I am a serial killer then.

Edited August 16, 2012 by ylangylang