Abortion

[Vhale]

People will take my tea from my cold dead hands.

 

Personally, I think there are a lot of different ways to raise kids. Some are minor differences and beliefs. But what it boils down to, is does the kid trust the parent more than society? I would be surprised to learn I'm the only person here who go offered drugs etc as a kid by friends that claimed they'd do no harm. Personally, I had a lot of very wild cousins, friends and I did not want to end up in the same troubles. I was 14 when two of my friends suicided over getting pregnant. I was in 6th grade when one girl was proudly showing off her birth control to everyone else in the school bathroom and one guy threw condoms all over the playground. I learned more from my friends mistakes than I did from my parents.

 

Personally, I think we need to get past trying to figure out how to punish people over abortion, and back to figuring out how to help people get from getting into that position in the first place. I think the health care coverage, covering birth control is a good step in the right direction there. A second good step (imo) would be getting better information out there so people can use it. The rest would be, a little more honesty with people debating the issue.

 

Speaking of which, this is commentary from the National Catholic Reporter about their choice to invite both candidates to a dinner. Apparently some are upset with Obama being there due to his abortion stance, so he is rebutting their remarks.

http://ncronline.org/news/politics/which-p...-truly-pro-life

[Kestra15]

'cept caffeine will not cause physical addiction and does a whole lot less lasting damage than almost any other drug out there.

No, but it is still a drug that can kill you or cause damage. There are people who have died from having too much caffeine in too short a time; it is a stimulant, so it accelerates (amongst other things) your heart, which can cause it to overwork and thus cause damage. We've had a couple of people in A&E the past year with heart palpatations caused from having too much Red Bull in one sitting, and there has been a couple of cases where people have had too much espresso and their heart has given out on them.

 

Yes, these cases are rarer that drug abuse deaths, I agree. I'm not saying caffeine is on the same level as, say, heroin. But it is a drug, it can be abused, it can cause damage...just like the other illicit drugs. And given alcohol is an even more prevalent killer - and moreover, it's not just the abusers who get hurt but those around them just as much - teaching a 'no drugs' stance becomes more than simply avoiding spliffs and hash-cakes.

 

Note: I did want to add some links up, but I do have to be out the door in fifteen minutes. While I have not checked into the background, this article does sum it up and give what sound like good case studies and incidents that, even if they themselves are not true, are certainly in line with what is taught and I have experienced: http://www.energyfiend.com/caffeine-overdo...ts-and-fiction)

 

As for those who say it is only a habitual addiction, bad news: http://www.nursingtimes.net/nursing-practi.../200735.article. It's a psychoactive drug, so the same large family of drugs as all those nasty illicit drugs, and you do get physical addiction and therefore physical side-effects and withdrawal.

 

Admittedly there is always contention over caffeine and what kind and type of addiction it carries, and every few years we flip-flop over it. But there is no denying the main points: it is a drug, it can harm and kill in large enough doses.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Kestra15

[Ashes The Second]

I'm addicted the Coke Cola. I can't go for more than a few days without it, or I start feeling physically ill. But enough about me -- Women could also do drugs to 'get rid of the baby'. I've heard it happen, and it's incredibly depressing, because drugs are so potent to someone like that.

[Rosedamai]

Speaking about abortion drugs-

 

http://io9.com/5933494/the-terrifying-hist...rtion-medicines

 

One thing is certain; they didn't ensure an abortion. Even silphium, a birth control method so supposedly foolproof that it was driven to extinction by the Romans, isn't thought to be practically useful. Generally early chemical abortifacients fell into two categories - herbs that induced uterine contractions and stimulated blood flow, and herbs that outright poisoned people.

 

Full size

The method used by most providers was the one that poisoned people. When the person took these the abortion was a the body's reaction to the damage it was taking. Women who couldn't get hold of anything else would dump turpentine in their tea and hope for the best. Restell, although reputedly running a safe surgical abortion clinic, was first arrested when a woman confessed to her husband that she had bought a phial of abortifacient from Restell that turned out to contain turpentine and tansy. Tansy is a flower that is a natural insect repellent. It has toxic chemicals that kill intestinal parasites, and so was used in medieval Europe as a way to kill intestinal worms. Today, its toxic properties cause it to be heavily regulated by the FDA. Ingesting it, and most guides suggested ingesting it daily for nearly a week to bring on an abortion, can cause convulsions, weakened pulse, and death.

 

Other such concoctions contained pennyroyal, which is a cooking herb when used fresh or dried. Pennyroyal oil, on the other hand, is toxic. Either through ignorance or as a deliberate attempt to ensure an abortion, sometimes women put the oil in their pills and either got very sick or died. Toxic abortifacients were not just harmful to women, but harmful to the fetus. If women who tried aborting this way carried to term, their children were likely to have birth defects. And even the most severe methods were nowhere near sure. The only thing any herb did was increase the odds.

 

Herbs that stimulated blood flow in the uterus would also, occasionally, bring on abortions. They were called emmanogogues, and the more well-known among them was parsley root, ginger, and chamomile. As most people reading this know, these are all foods, and food that are not warned against by doctors. Occasionally huge amounts of things like parsley might bring on contractions, but certainly don't do any such thing in normal amounts. Certain options, like cohosh, were used to bring on contractions, but also upped the chance of stroke, loss of blood pressure, extremely painful headaches, and pain in the arms and legs. At least these drugs didn't flat out poison people though.

 

Poisonings were incredibly common, both as a last-ditch method or as a way of getting to a hospital in such bad shape that the hospital itself would perform the procedure. Tragic misconceptions, however, plagued the population. Many women tried to abort with high doses of quinine. While this can be terrible for a person in high doses, it's actually relatively safe for a pregnancy. Very high doses wouldn't be at all likely to end the pregnancy, but would shut down a woman's kidneys. Women would still attempt it though, because it was some kind of over-the-counter medicine with some kind of vague reputation.

 

All possible abortifacients, even those given out by people who knew what they were doing and consciously tried to minimize the risks associated with them, were kept popular mostly out of desperation. With no other options, women would turn to anyone and anything that might help them. What dropped them out of circulation almost entirely has been the ability to get safe, reliable birth control both before and after conception.

 

I'm so glad I live in the 21st century and in a place where Abortion is illegal, but can be gotten.

[Shienvien]

No, but it is still a drug that can kill you or cause damage.

...as well as it [caffeine] won't do you any good if you have high blood pressure or heart problems. In the latter case, it can kill...

^Note that I actually largely pointed that out myself.

On the subject of whether or not it could cause physical addiction - it is indeed debatable as there are differing opinions on it, though several sources I've seen insist you don't get physical addiction from caffeine, or that those cases are rare/have comparatively mild withdrawal symptoms lasting a few days. As a side note, some types of habitual addiction also seem to have 'withdrawal symptoms'.

The general consensus seems to be that even when caffeine can cause actual physical addiction, the instances are by far less frequent and acute than say, addiction to nicotine, which is very prone to causing addiction. Or alcohol, for the matter. I myself appear to be a person who will not get addicted to caffeine at all, and I am not the only one as far as I know. (I can easily drink a half a litre of dark coffee per day for several weeks in the run, and then one day simply forget to make myself some, and not even realize something is off. Or go to hiking with no ability to properly boil water - I also won't miss it much then. And then there are long periods during which I simply do not drink a cup for no particular reason.)

 

- In the end, almost any substance/chemical will kill in large enough dosages. Water, salt, sugar, vitamins... It's often all about moderation and knowing what one personally can or cannot take. (Note that caffeine is the only drug I knowingly allow myself to consume, less than a handful of glassfuls of not-strong alcohol per year at social events not included.)

 

 

(We probably ought to move onto another thread if we wanted to continue debating on it, though.)

 

_ _ _

 

 

Wasn't there some abortificant the Romans used so frequently the plant went extinct?

[hazeh]

Wouldn't the headache withdrawals from going without caffeine count as a physical addiction? I just asked my mom, who's an ICU nurse (so I find her quite credible) and she said it causes physical addictions as well, hence why she gets severe headaches and feels really crummy if she doesn't have caffeine every 24 hours.

 

ETA: Cannabis really is one of the safest drugs out there (in terms of comparison with everyone else and with what's legal, like alcohol and others), which is why it boggles my mind that people are all up in arms against it.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Shiny Hazard Sign

[Kestra15]

^Note that I actually largely pointed that out myself.

On the subject of whether or not it could cause physical addiction - it is indeed debatable as there are differing opinions on it, though several sources I've seen insist you don't get physical addiction from caffeine, or that those cases are rare/have comparatively mild withdrawal symptoms lasting a few days. As a side note, some types of habitual addiction also seem to have 'withdrawal symptoms'.

The general consensus seems to be that even when caffeine can cause actual physical addiction, the instances are by far less frequent and acute than say, addiction to nicotine, which is very prone to causing addiction. Or alcohol, for the matter. I myself appear to be a person who will not get addicted to caffeine at all, and I am not the only one as far as I know. (I can easily drink a half a litre of dark coffee per day for several weeks in the run, and then one day simply forget to make myself some, and not even realize something is off. Or go to hiking with no ability to properly boil water - I also won't miss it much then. And then there are long periods during which I simply do not drink a cup for no particular reason.)

 

- In the end, almost any substance/chemical will kill in large enough dosages. Water, salt, sugar, vitamins... It's often all about moderation and knowing what one personally can or cannot take. (Note that caffeine is the only drug I knowingly allow myself to consume, less than a handful of glassfuls of not-strong alcohol per year at social events not included.)

 

 

(We probably ought to move onto another thread if we wanted to continue debating on it, though.)

 

_ _ _

 

 

Wasn't there some abortificant the Romans used so frequently the plant went extinct?

Even silphium, a birth control method so supposedly foolproof that it was driven to extinction by the Romans, isn't thought to be practically useful.

 

As for debate - I don't think there's much need to debate further on whether caffeine is an addictive drug. Amerylis says it's more habitual addiction than physical and she's a pharmacist, so I'm inclined to believe her. But as said, it's a bit of a flip-flop anyway. Either way it's still a psychoactive drug that can kill ;~)

[~Kat~]

Personally, I think we need to get past trying to figure out how to punish people over abortion, and back to figuring out how to help people get from getting into that position in the first place. .

 

I agree with you that finding a way to help people that have sex, to know how to avoid getting pregnant in the first place so they will not have to have an abortion.

 

Yes yes, I know sometimes taking precautions fail, that is a given.

 

Instead of keeping on fighting abortion is there, as we all know it is, concentrate on being postitive trying to help people so they are not put in the position to have to have an abortion.

 

Like said, I agree with abortions to some degree,

[AngelKitty]

Even silphium, a birth control method so supposedly foolproof that it was driven to extinction by the Romans, isn't thought to be practically useful.

 

Silphium actually had numerous uses, not just as an abortificant, according to Pliny the Elder.

[~Kat~]

For people who know they do not want children, I feel if they want to be steralized, that should be their option, not a dr's.

 

I know after we had our second child, I had to convince my dr to tie my tubes, because if I got pregnant again, I know I would not have had an abortion, and we would have kept our child. Later I had to have a total hysterectomy.

Edited August 16, 2012 by ~Kat~

[Rosedamai]

For people who know they do not want children, I feel if they want to be steralized, that should be their option, not a dr's.

I wish I could. The thing is, in many countries, you can't get sterilized unless under strict conditions, such as being over 40 and having two children, and even if you could, society will shun you. Not everything be done just on the behalf of an individual in some cases.

[Fuzzbucket]

For people who know they do not want children, I feel if they want to be steralized, that should be their option, not a dr's.

 

I know after we had our second child, I had to convince my dr to tie my tubes, because if I got pregnant again, I know I would not have had an abortion, and we would have kept our child. Later I had to have a total hysterectomy.

Yes - you had to convince your doctor. As I did mine when I was about 30 and had two children. MANY doctors take the view that "you might change your mind" or "what will you do if one of your children dies" - (well, I will grieve and then get on with my life; MAN that one annoyed me.) But women who have no children can almost never convince doctors to sterilise them. The know-it-all doctors, who know you better than you know yourself, it seems, always figure that they know best and that you WILL change your mind later....

 

At least it is a bit easier for men to get a vasectomy.... but then again - MEN don't need abortions

[Kestra15]

Yes - you had to convince your doctor. As I did mine when I was about 30 and had two children. MANY doctors take the view that "you might change your mind" or "what will you do if one of your children dies" - (well, I will grieve and then get on with my life; MAN that one annoyed me.) But women who have no children can almost never convince doctors to sterilise them. The know-it-all doctors, who know you better than you know yourself, it seems, always figure that they know best and that you WILL change your mind later....

 

At least it is a bit easier for men to get a vasectomy.... but then again - MEN don't need abortions

As mentioned before, it's to protect the doctors more than anything else. A vasectomy can be reversed if the man changes his mind as well.

[Fuzzbucket]

As mentioned before, it's to protect the doctors more than anything else. A vasectomy can be reversed if the man changes his mind as well.

So can a tubal ligation.

 

But still - if the woman is prepared to sign a release (as I had to) the doctor should NOT be at risk.

 

And I DID get lectures about how I would change my mind, because "women always do" - the implication being we were too feeble to know our own minds... This, I might add, was my GP - who should have known better - by the time I got to the OBGYN it was easy.

Edited August 16, 2012 by fuzzbucket

[SkylerFarrier]

Too many posts, so I will not be able to read them all.

I have very strong opinions and believe abortion is flat-out MURDER unless there is a rock-hard reason for it. And the only reasons I believe abortion is RIGHT is if the mother is in mortal danger due to her child.

I don't care if it was rape, put the child up for adoption. If abortion was the norm 50 years ago, I would not be here. My father's mother was attacked and raped, yet she carried him to term and then put him up for adoption. I won't say his adoptive parents were the best, since my immediate family (save for my father and my baby siblings) pretty much refuse to speak to them (they adopted another baby and she abused my father throughout his life).

And if that isn't enough, my best friend throughout junior and senior high school experienced at least one failed abortion while she was in her mother's womb.

Put simply, having children is a GIFT. I wish the human race had to EARN the ability to procreate.

[lightbird]

Too many posts, so I will not be able to read them all.

Pity, if you would have read a bit, you'd learn from an actual social worker that the adoption system in the US is horribly broken.

 

 

Now, though, I, too, wish you had to do something to actually get pregnant instead of avoiding it. It would make things so much easier to have Hainish physiology. /cookies, if you get the reference

 

On the murder bit, frankly, I think there can't be a death if there hasn't been a life.

Edited August 16, 2012 by lightbird

[SkylerFarrier]

Pity, if you would have read a bit, you'd learn from an actual social worker that the adoption system in the US is horribly broken.

 

 

Now, though, I, too, wish you had to do something to actually get pregnant instead of avoiding it. It would make things so much easier to have Hainish physiology. /cookies, if you get the reference

 

On the murder bit, frankly, I think there can't be a death if there hasn't been a life.

And how do you know it isn't alive?

What is the scientific and biological definition of life?

Except for the reproduction (and it will be able to reproduce when it grows older), a fetus is alive. Unless you wish to argue whether it is 'ensouled' or not, and that is a very tricky subject.

[AngelKitty]

I don't care if it was rape, put the child up for adoption.

 

That statement disgusts me in its coldness.

 

My father's mother was attacked and raped, yet she carried him to term and then put him up for adoption. I won't say his adoptive parents were the best, since my immediate family (save for my father and my baby siblings) pretty much refuse to speak to them (they adopted another baby and she abused my father throughout his life).

 

And this is why, if I were raped or otherwise ended up with an unwanted pregnancy, I would not put that child in the adoption system. I'd rather abort an unfeeling, undeveloped fetus than put an actual living, breathing child through what your father (and countless other kids) went through.

 

Put simply, having children is a GIFT.

 

Not to someone who doesn't want a kid. Not all women are preprogrammed to love teh baybees. I'm one of them. Older kids? Great in small doses. Babies? Get it away from me.

[SkylerFarrier]

And this is why, if I were raped or otherwise ended up with an unwanted pregnancy, I would not put that child in the adoption system. I'd rather abort an unfeeling, undeveloped fetus than put an actual living, breathing child through what your father (and countless other kids) went through.

And I've been abused by them. Would I rather be dead? HELL NO.

 

Not to someone who doesn't want a kid. Not all women are preprogrammed to love teh baybees. I'm one of them. Older kids? Great in small doses. Babies? Get it away from me.

Perhaps I should have said 'privelege', then. I am not fond of little kids, either, but having children is not a 'right' or an 'accident'.

[prairiecrow]

I don't care if it was rape, put the child up for adoption.

Yes, because forcing a woman to be a brood mare and carry the seed of the man who sexually violated her to term isn't hideously cruel at all.

 

[SkylerFarrier]

Yes, because forcing a woman to be a brood mare and carry the seed of the man who sexually violated her to term isn't hideously cruel at all.

 

So you'd rather kill off the innocent child?

[Zaxian]

So you'd rather kill off the innocent child? 

No, but I would rather remove a small lump of cells from a woman's womb before it becomes that innocent child.

[SkylerFarrier]

No, but I would rather remove a small lump of cells from a woman's womb before it becomes that innocent child.

Ah, but isn't that one of the most heated topics on abortion? When does it stop being a lump of cells and when does it start being 'life'?

[Kestra15]

So can a tubal ligation.

 

But still - if the woman is prepared to sign a release (as I had to) the doctor should NOT be at risk.

 

And I DID get lectures about how I would change my mind, because "women always do" - the implication being we were too feeble to know our own minds... This, I might add, was my GP - who should have known better - by the time I got to the OBGYN it was easy.

I would say that the 'change your mind' argument has nothing to do with what gender you are, but more human nature. I'm sure you can think of many things where you knew what was right for you, and then later on you've changed your tune ;~) But the sad case is that there is no such thing as a rock-solid legal document; someone, somewhere, will always find a loophole.

 

Now, I'm not saying this is something every woman who asks for sterilization will do. I will not try to tell you that you will change your mind. What I will argue is that someone coming for sterilization now may change their mind in five years, may want to push for legal action, and may be successful. There are sadly entire companies who do nothing bu chase ambulances (As the saying goes) and it just isn't worth the risk to the doctor for that to happen to them.

 

And GPs...well, they're a source of contention for me anyway ;~P

So you'd rather kill off the innocent child? 

Please prove to me that the fetus is in fact alive, and will be a child.

 

As Lightbird has pointed out, you really should read some of the thread (the last ten pages I would suggest) and you'll quickly realise that just because conception has occured doesn't mean that bundle of cells will become a life.

[prairiecrow]

So you'd rather kill off the innocent child? 

I'll choose a fully functioning, fully realized, suffering woman over a lump of cells which may or may not become a child any day of the week.

 

I challenge you to tell a woman who's been raped (and who wants to abort) that she must carry her rapist's child to term, and to enforce it, and then deal with them on a daily basis during the following months -- to see their anguish and their suffering, their grief and their despair, their fear and their disgust. To live that horrible journey along with them, without flinching and without looking away. To say they "should" do such a thing is one thing; to actually witness the aftermath is something else entirely.

Edited August 16, 2012 by prairiecrow