Abortion

[hazeh]

 

It is all dangerous, anything can go wrong when delivering a baby or abortion or having any type of surgery. You have blood pressure, and the list goes on. Abortion does not win out at all.

In terms of statistics, yes it does win out. I don't have the numbers but I do believe some of our esteemed members on here could cite them for me.

[~Kat~]

In terms of statistics, yes it does win out. I don't have the numbers but I do believe some of our esteemed members on here could cite them for me.

If this is what you want to think, you are entitled,

 

How many surgeries have you had, how many questions do you ask a dr. How often do you go to a dr. From your Profile, you are not that old, but yet you seem to know so much.

 

There are risks everytime you go under to have surgery.

 

My ex FIL was a head Dr in one of the biggest hospitals where I live, but I guess you know more than he does.

Edited August 3, 2012 by ~Kat~

[WereJace]

If this is what you want to think, you are entitled,

 

How many surgeries have you had, how many questions do you ask a dr. How often do you go to a dr. From your Profile, you are not that old, but yet you seem to know so much.

 

There are risks everytime you go under to have surgery.

 

My ex FIL was a head Dr in one of the biggest hospitals where I live, but I guess you know more than he does.

Known deaths from legal abortions, USA, 2008 (from the CDC Abortion Surveillance 2008): 6 of 825,564 cases.

 

"The pregnancy-related mortality ratio was 15.1 deaths per 100,000 live births for the period 2006–2007." -CDC Pregnancy Related Mortality linked here.

 

That is a very significant difference in fatalities, yes.

[ShinyTomato]

There is also adoption.

 

Speaking as a professional, adoption is only a good option if you are very rich, able to afford private adoption, and psychologically and physically able to carry to term. Otherwise it's playing roulette with a child's life, since only 2-3% of children put up for adoption are actually adopted.

 

Make them wake up, and abortion would go away for the most part.

 

No it won't -- it never has before. Even when abortion was legal, the rate was only slightly smaller. The abortion rate was higher in the 1850s than it is now. The Romans had an herb that was so useful for birth control and abortions, it's now extinct. G-d prescribed a method of abortion in the Numbers, for a man who doubted his wife's fidelity, I could go on.

 

Funny, I never got pregnant till I wanted a baby, and same goes with others. Maybe I am and the others are Unique for not having an abortion or getting pregnant till we wanted to be. Just kidding.

 

Considering that 1 in 3 people will have a partner tamper with birth control or lie about their fertility, statistically -- yes you are. The majority of children in this world were unplanned (as high as 82%). Obviously, the number that abort, unplanned goes up, but not by much (84%)

 

If this is what you want to think, you are entitled, smile.gif

 

You are 74% more likely to have any sort of complication with birth than with abortion. Of those that have complications from abortion, less than 5% affect sterility, and less than 1% pose any threat to life. That's much lower than with birth.

 

(US CDC National Center For Health Statistics, Risk of Maternal Complications During Birth, Spontaneous Abortion and Clinical Abortion, 2011)

 

How many surgeries have you had,

 

12.

 

how many questions do you ask a dr.

 

Between 20 and 30 at least.

 

How often do you go to a dr.

 

Every three months.

[hazeh]

If this is what you want to think, you are entitled,

 

How many surgeries have you had, how many questions do you ask a dr. How often do you go to a dr. From your Profile, you are not that old, but yet you seem to know so much.

 

There are risks everytime you go under to have surgery.

 

My ex FIL was a head Dr in one of the biggest hospitals where I live, but I guess you know more than he does.

Both of my moms are medical professionals (and have been for many years), as are my grandparents and a good handful of my aunts and uncles.

 

So yes, I do believe I know what I'm talking about. Just because I don't have the personal experience and am young, does not mean I am ignorant.

 

being a head Doctor of a hospital doesn't really mean much. I got the "pleasure" of meeting the former head doctor at the hospital my mom works at when I shadowed an RT. And from what I observed in one day with his interactions with the nurses and RTs, that man did not care much of anything for the patients he looked after. Just because someone's a doctor, doesn't mean they know everything they talk about. My mother has given me quite some wild stories about the doctors she's worked with and the ridiculous things they've said and done concerning medical knowledge.

[St. Jimmy]

RIGHT IS RIGHT AND WRONG IS WRONG, what is so hard to understand about that!!!

There are some things that are called Morals and Ethics, look it up in the dictionary. Some of the younger genereation, not all, are lacking greatly in that area.

What is right for one person may not be right for another, and vice versa.

 

I am not talking about backward countries like Ethiopia. I live in the USA and we are not backwards that is for sure.

Where are you getting this? Ethiopia isn't some Darkest Africa jungle country, it's quite a developed nation. A different culture doesn't make it backwards.

 

[hazeh]

 

 

Where are you getting this? Ethiopia isn't some Darkest Africa jungle country, it's quite a developed nation. A different culture doesn't make it backwards.

And to add to this, I live in the US and I think there's a good portion about it that's backwards.

[lightbird]

I taught both my boys about the bees and the birds from A to Z, I also taught them how to prevent having a baby as well.

 

Good for you and your kids.

And a lot of people are so emarrassed that they can't do it themselves and put that burden up to school sex ed classes, whose quality, as I have heard, is VEEEEEERY variable in the USA.

 

I am compassionate to those that want to do right and try to help themselves and lead a better life, and bring theirselves up, not trash theirselves for a moments pleasure. There are some things that are called Morals and Ethics, look it up in the dictionary. Some of the younger genereation, not all, are lacking greatly in that area.

 

As St. Jimmy said, you're trying to assume that there's a universal standard for what is acceptable and the "right" thing to do, without even assuming that for some people your measuring mile sticks might not even exist.

Just because the generation after yours is prone to make different decisions from ones you might, doesn't mean that they are worse.

 

You know, it is just not the parents to consider, their are grandmothers and grandfathers, you see where I am going with this?

 

Not entirely. I'm an Aspie and don't really read between the lines. You are, again, using a way of writing that assumes that the reader knows exactly what you're thinking.

 

I am not talking about backward countries like Ethiopia. I live in the USA and we are not backwards that is for sure.

 

...

Please define "backwards".

Then use examples (non-anecdotal, with press/study links etc.) to prove your point.

 

Thank you.

Edited August 3, 2012 by lightbird

[Kestra15]

When these people decide to get a little bit more Christian that have these poor babies aborted, then I will not judge so harshly.

By getting more Christian do we mean having sex with 14yr old boys and cheating on your partners? Because that's what my 'Christian' ex did. And so should I have just let my sister die due to the 'no abortion' rule, that I should have lost both her and my potential niece/nephew, due to those outdated laws?

 

And does that mean I therefore can never be as good a person as my ex, because what little faith I have is unorthodox at best? That I am happy to accept things like homosexuality and abortion? What makes you and your religion better than, say, Noble and her religion?

 

And while I appreciate that you apologised for your remark in my specific case, it doesn't rule out the fact that you made a horrendous blanket remark, that anyone who attends an abortion clinic is a 'loser.' That anyone who attends clearly didn't 'know the risks' or were not 'mature enough.' You are trying to say that 'right is right, wrong is wrong,' but sadly it is not so black-and-white when it comes to morality.

 

You're right, I do think people need to be more mature and responsible. I do think less of those whose primary method of birth control is repeated abortions, but I wouldn't want to stop them from having the abortions; I would rather they made that rather small strain on resources, than the strain of caring for a child on state-funding alone - be it hand-outs to the family or foster homes or adoption agencies.

 

Specifically addressing your remarks about your 'hard-earned cash' bailing out 'losers,' I also found this little nugget:

 

In the United States in 2009, the median price charged for a medical abortion up to 9 weeks gestation was $490, four percent higher than the $470 median price charged for a surgical abortion at 10 weeks gestation. In the United States in 2008, 57% of women who had abortions paid for them out of pocket.

 

One of the sources: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405...0289939490.html

 

So actually, half of the 'losers' are not being paid for by your 'hard-earned' cash.

 

You talk and act as if the only people getting abortions are consenting teenagers who take no risks. What about all those other possibilities? As Noble has repeatedly pointed out that particular demographic is not as large as you seem to think.

There are risks everytime you go under to have surgery.

 

My ex FIL was a head Dr in one of the biggest hospitals where I live, but I guess you know more than he does.

 

In the US, the risk of maternal death from abortion is 0.6 per 100,000 procedures, making abortion about 14 times safer than childbirth (8.8 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births).

(I originally spent about half an hour putting together an argument based on my combined fields of knowledge, but this was a simpler and more effective argument.)

 

Yes, there are risks in surgery. But most abortions are medically-induced. Given in ten years there were only ten reported deaths for the most common regimen of medical abortion, I'd say that's pretty darn safe. And as show in above posts, there's been more than 10 deaths related to child-birth. And then of course you factor in that in child-birth there are two lives to be preserved, not one - so already you have at least twice as many problems.

 

Oh, and being head doctor doesn't mean squat. Head doctors are managers who worry about resource allocations and balancing budgets - they don't know the ins and outs of every department and specialty. Unless he was the head of OBGYN or a maternity department, I wouldn't rely too much on what he has to say.

 

How many surgeries have you had, how many questions do you ask a dr. How often do you go to a dr.

Only one surgery but quite a few scans and procedures, and I see my doctor every month where I ask him a landslide of questions. But guess what? I'm an Intensive Care Nurse. In one week I will see more surgeries, more doctors and more problems than any one person will go through in a life-time. I have to deal with the 20 sickest patients in a hospital in that specific 12hr period, let alone at the end of a week of shifts where I can see up to a hundred. Each one of them will have entire teams of specialists seeing them a couple of times a day, with our own departmental team on hand 24/7. Given some patients will have multiple surgeries a day - let alone over their entire care - I think it's fair to say I have easily been exposed to more procedures and medical scenarios than anyone else here (bar those who are also in the health-care field such as Noble).

 

I live in the USA and we are not backwards that is for sure.

You live in a country where if you can't afford health-care - no matter how urgent or life-threatening - you will be left to die, where you can buy guns and ammo with very little to limit the type and amount, in a nation of fear where you think everyone is packing heat and you have shoot-outs in cinemas and schools. You want to proclaim you are not backwards?

Edited August 3, 2012 by Kestra15

[Brite]

When these people decide to get a little bit more Christian that have these poor babies aborted, then I will not judge so harshly.

 

The only poor babies I see are the ones tossed into the terrible system after being forced born

[~Kat~]

god.ofthedead

 

Thank you for at least trying to understand me.

 

Please do not wish you had been aborted. YOU ARE SOMEBODY AND YOU MATTER, don't ever forget that.

 

First of all, YOU did not ruin your mothers life, please understand that. Your mothers actions as long as she was not raped, if it was through ignorance or whatever determined her destiny. If you mother has told you repeatedly that you ruined her life, I sure wish I could talk to your mother, I could make her feel about as worthless as she seams to have made you feel. I can not even imagine telling my children who are grown now that they ruined my life. Some of your stories on here breaks my heart and I wish I could have been your mother. How different your outcome could have been.

 

Being a parent comes along with you having to forget yourself for a while and nurture that child/children. It is not impossible for a lot of parents to have understanding and patience for children. I am one example and all of my friends adore and love theirs. My son is about to get married to a wonderful female who has 4 children and they love him and he loves them. You would think he was their biological father if you did not know he wasn't.

 

It depends on how children are raised. If they are passed around they do not have a stable environment or discipline, and they get known as bad kids. This is so sad.

 

Please do not let what has happened to you, ruin maybe one day you having your own child if you want a child. Take from what has happened to you and you can change things on how you were raised, to how you raise your own if you have any, and this goes for the rest of you as well. You have a brain that you can pull yourself up one day from all the horrible things that have happened to many of you.

 

NOt all children who are not aborted, have a horrible life, yes some do, and I am sorry the sytem fails these children. You have good and bad parents in this world. If I ever know of parental abuse, I would be the first to tell on them to the right people and get it stopped.

 

I agree that a person should teach their children sex education, and if not, I am all for school doing it. At least this way you get educated.

 

I guess when it comes to abortion, I am talking about the people that KNOW how not to get pregnant and will not use some method of trying not to get pregnant, and then choose abortion.

 

Please do not hold it against me because I was raised with love, teachings, and of course I got my fair share of whoopins the right way, and I deserved everyone of them So see, I can understand what a lot of you have been through. Again, it breaks my heart.

 

Besides the horrible adopted families or your own family, there are good people who adopt and good parents out there.

[Kestra15]

It depends on how children are raised. If they are passed around they do not have a stable environment or discipline, and they get known as bad kids. This is so sad.

Umm...ouch. Thanks.

[ShinyTomato]

I'll throw my hat in with the "wish I had been aborted crowd."

 

I was supposed to have a twin. That fetus became a parasitic mass. My mother chose to carry me to term, and because of that, the mass could not be removed, and she died in horrible pain eight years later.

 

There isn't a single day that goes by that I don't hate her for that a little. Especially in our culture. It was a selfish choice she made for herself, rather than what was in my best interests, which she admitted to in a letter to me I was given on my sixteenth birthday.

 

NOt all children who are not aborted, have a horrible life, yes some do, and I am sorry the sytem fails these children. You have good and bad parents in this world. If I ever know of parental abuse, I would be the first to tell on them to the right people and get it stopped.

 

The majority do, let's be honest here.

 

I guess when it comes to abortion, I am talking about the people that KNOW how not to get pregnant and will not use some method of trying not to get pregnant, and then choose abortion.

 

So you're talking about 8% of abortions? You want to make decisions on abortion based on 8%?

[St. Jimmy]

For those who can accept forgetting about themselves, it is easy to have children. But there are people (like myself) who are VERY selfish.

Is not wanting to have kids really all that selfish? I don't think I am; they're just not my bowl of cheerios.

[~Kat~]

Thank you. I'm well aware of this now, but I wasn't before I'd met my boyfriend. I know that it wasn't my fault - I've known that for a while. It was her ignorance and stupidity that brings her at fault, not me.

 

Irregardless if there are good people or not, the system still can't support the influx of children it'd get if abortion wasn't allowed, or if it was discriminated. Neglect would be rampant. They just wouldn't have the funding. (Again, if American people donated to, oh, I don't know, American charities to help American children AND foreign charities, then things would have more funding. I, for one, believe charity starts at home. If you can't feed your own people, how can you try to feed the world?)

 

I am so glad that you met someone that made you realize it was not your fault. I hope you continue feeling good about yourself, and hopefully time will change that as well.

 

If you do not want children, there is nothing wrong with that either. If down the road, something changes that fact, good luck to you.

 

Maybe you could channel your anger and help in the ways only you know how you might could help. Put your anger toward a good cause if you can. Please do not let anger make you bitter, as it only hurts you in the long run. If it is a helathy anger for the right reasons, then that is good.

 

I will only donate here in the country I live in. I to beleive you take care of your own first.

Edited August 5, 2012 by ~Kat~

[teslakana]

one thing i don't get

 

if it's a woman it's an abortion

 

but when it's a chicken it's an omelette?

[Slaskia]

one thing i don't get

 

if it's a woman it's an abortion

 

but when it's a chicken it's an omelette?

The eggs we use for omelettes are not fertilized (in other words they don't even have a chance to grow into chickens). Big difference.

[lightbird]

My reasons are purely selfish. Some people think not wanting to have children is selfish.

Indeed. I think that, in part, for some parents it's the envy that the childless person is happy without making the sacrifices that they're making, because they chose to have children. At least from what I've observed on some local forums, those who don't want children, usually get accused of being greedy, materialistic scumbags who care for noone else because they're not fulfilling their life's "sacred duty" and thus (a sensitive topic because I live in an economically sensitive region) should be paid less and even qualified lower purely based on that fact. /facepalm

Honestly, I only see envy about someone not having chosen to be a parent and the burdens that come with it in this situation. :T

 

 

For myself, I have more or less always known that I don't want to be a parent. I'm pretty self-absorbed, and am a child of self-absorbed parents as well - and I can tell you don't need to be physically abused to grow up knowing that your upbringing was screwed-up, being ignored can be enough. Another thing is that I would also be scared about putting myself in an economically sensitive situation as well while being pregnant and/or having to care for an infant (yes, smells like trust issues, doesn't it). Third, I'm emetophobic, so morning sickness would be very stressing for me, have backbone issues and I'm generally horrified by the idea of something growing inside me. Lastly, I have bipolar issues, suspicions of being an Aspie (NOT diagnosed in adults where I live, so I can't confirm, although all signs point to that) and autoimmune issues that are likely to be passed on, so I'd feel uncomfortable about that, too.

 

If I really wanted to care for a child, I'd consider adoption, but in case of getting pregnant, I'd most likely want to abort.

 

ETA: Oh, wait. I've actually heard this in real life, too, about how I'm selfish, because I don't want to carry a child and give birth. From a girl in middle school who, yeah, has 2 kids now.

Edited August 5, 2012 by lightbird

[~Kat~]

I'll throw my hat in with the "wish I had been aborted crowd."

 

I was supposed to have a twin. That fetus became a parasitic mass. My mother chose to carry me to term, and because of that, the mass could not be removed, and she died in horrible pain eight years later.

 

There isn't a single day that goes by that I don't hate her for that a little. Especially in our culture. It was a selfish choice she made for herself, rather than what was in my best interests, which she admitted to in a letter to me I was given on my sixteenth birthday.

 

 

The majority do, let's be honest here.

 

So you're talking about 8% of abortions? You want to make decisions on abortion based on 8%?

I am so sorry for you, and that you hate your mother. I take it, you were healthy and your mother carried the mass and died from it. If I am wrong, please let me know.

 

I can say that being a mother twice now, I can not even imagine making a decision if I had to abort because of my life, or if my child was not going to be totally right. I have said many many prayers that my children were healthy.

 

I would say that it is not fair to judge a mother that is carrying a baby or twins who want their child or children. Until you are pregnant, and know this feeling of carrying a baby or baby's you want, you can't even imagine having to make a decison on something like that, that some mothers have to make, and it almost kills them having to make such a decision to abort that child they deperately already love and want.

 

No, I am not making any decisions on 8% abortions at all. It is personally the way I feel. I am sorry if it offends you at all.

[Kestra15]

Indeed. I think that, in part, for some parents it's the envy that the childless person is happy without making the sacrifices that they're making, because they chose to have children. At least from what I've observed on some local forums, those who don't want children, usually get accused of being greedy, materialistic scumbags who care for noone else because they're not fulfilling their life's "sacred duty" and thus (a sensitive topic because I live in an economically sensitive region) should be paid less and even qualified lower purely based on that fact. /facepalm

Ouch - that's a heck of an argument to be making for those people. I would like to know how many of the more 'righteous' parents are sitting around on a metric ton of benefits and do nothing to contribute to society.

 

Is not wanting to have kids really all that selfish? I don't think I am; they're just not my bowl of cheerios.

For some people, in part, yes. I know the main part of my reason for not wanting to be a dad is fear, and a smaller part is not wanting to lose my time, money and life. I want to do so much, and to do all that I need freedom. I need to be able to go to Everest or Antarctica for three months at a time and not feel guilty about missing out on my child's progress, or leaving all that work on Amerylis, or the child resenting me (like, in some ways, I resent my father for being away so much).

 

But for some people it is fear, or just a lack of interest, and frankly whatever your reasons I'm not going to judge you for your choice.

I will only donate here in the country I live in. I to beleive you take care of your own first.

Agreed.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Kestra15

[ShinyTomato]

The eggs we use for omelettes are not fertilized (in other words they don't even have a chance to grow into chickens). Big difference.

This is not true. You can go through any dozen supermarket eggs and find fertilized ones.

 

I am so sorry for you, and that you hate your mother. I take it, you were healthy and your mother carried the mass and died from it. If I am wrong, please let me know.

 

You are correct. The would-be twin became a mass. She could have saved her life

 

I would say that it is not fair to judge a mother that is carrying a baby or twins who want their child or children. Until you are pregnant, and know this feeling of carrying a baby or baby's you want, you can't even imagine having to make a decison on something like that, that some mothers have to make, and it almost kills them having to make such a decision to abort that child they deperately already love and want.

 

I have been pregnant. I have known what it was like to consider abortion. I can judge her, because she made that decision, according to HER, on what was easiest for HER, knowing that in the long run, she would be hurting me.

 

No, I am not making any decisions on 8% abortions at all. It is personally the way I feel. I am sorry if it offends you at all.

 

You're basically saying those intelligent enough to know they could get pregnant, how not to, and didn't bother. Statistically, that's about 8%

[7Deadly$ins]

Hm... I'm surprised so many people are accused of being selfish for not having children. I actually consider it slightly more selfish to have children, especially more than two.

[Sorrowgrave]

the only way I could think that would be selfish is if you fit all other critera, no medical reason otherwise saying you shouldn't have children, you can support them financtually and emotionally and the only reason you really have is not wanting them, supposing that your partner does BADLY and you refuse to adopt or have a bio*again assuming you could finacually afford it*

 

anything else and I don't see how it's selfish

Edited August 5, 2012 by Sorrowgrave

[Brite]

Hm... I'm surprised so many people are accused of being selfish for not having children. I actually consider it slightly more selfish to have children, especially more than two.

I thought selfish had to do with more than one person. If that's so, how is it selfish if that "child" hasn't even been conceived yet?

 

I know the main part of my reason for not wanting to be a dad is fear, and a smaller part is not wanting to lose my time, money and life

 

Similar to my reasons, except one of them is a fear of pregnancy. And I will most certainly not give up my good life to take care of something I naturally hate. I've explained that to some people and their only answers are "It pays off" how so? How does it pay off if I literally HATE kids. People don't think that exist. They just think "D'aaaw how could you hate such a cute babbyyyyy, when you give birth you automatically wuuuvvv it!!" people like this I want to smack

[prairiecrow]

the only way I could think that would be selfish is if you fit all other critera, no medical reason otherwise saying you shouldn't have children, you can support them financtually and emotionally and the only reason you really have is not wanting them, supposing that your partner does BADLY and you refuse to adopt or have a bio*again assuming you could finacually afford it*

You call it selfishness, I call it a woman having full bodily autonomy and the right to decide when and if she becomes a baby incubator.

 

The desires of one's partner should NEVER, in my opinion, be enough to force a woman into having a child against her will. If the partner in question wants children that badly, then let him or her go find someone who's willing to bear them. Trying to strong arm a woman into bearing a child because "there's no reason why you couldn't and YOUR PARTNER REALLY WANTS ONE, SO STOP BEING SO SELFISH" is just... awful, in my opinion.

 

Oh, and for the record I'm squarely in the "don't like kids, hate babies, never want one" camp. I had my tubes tied at the age of twenty-six to prevent exactly that, and the thought of being pregnant makes me shudder with revulsion. For that reason I have tremendous respect for women who are willing and able to go through the process of child-bearing and child-rearing, because it seems to be a difficult and noble profession that I could never aspire to myself.

Edited August 5, 2012 by prairiecrow