Abortion

[hazeh]

If you don't want the baby use protection that is all I have to say.

Tell that to the people who use every form of protection they can, and still end up pregnant anyway.

[Wantdew]

Tell that to the people who use every form of protection they can, and still end up pregnant anyway.

I don't know or care...

[7Deadly$ins]

I don't know or care...

Out of curiosity, why are you participating in all of our debate topics if you are apparently a true neutral?

[Wantdew]

Out of curiosity, why are you participating in all of our debate topics if you are apparently a true neutral?

I feel the need to share my opinion.

[Fuzzbucket]

I feel the need to share my opinion.

But you seem not to have one; you seem neutral on everything. That isn't an opinion, that's more or less apathy.

[Rosedamai]

Today is the day that I get (finally!) discharged from the hospital-they had to do some last-minute checkups. The doctors told me to keep calm but I feel that I must join this discussion.

 

First things first-

Read an article in USA Today yesterday that talked about forced abortions in China. A woman was kidnapped by government workers while shopping. Her husband meanwhile was going around paying all the differant organizations you have to pay to have another child.

 

I don't have a link since I bought the paper but apparantly forced abortion is allowed and pushed for by the government as a way of keeping families in line. The woman in question was 8 months pregnant when the abortion was forced.

To the best of my knowledge, stuff like this is not uncommon in China, for example my Chinese instructor had two younger brothers, and she explained that with the brothers' birth, her parents had paid a steep price, and insinuated that her parents had to run away and hide for a period of time. So apparently, if you don't have enough fees to pay for the birth of your second or third child, government officials may...do that. But, it's not like the law is severely imposed on in some regions, and I heard that certain minority groups can have more than one child.

 

If you don't want the baby use protection that is all I have to say.

*rolls up sleeves*

 

First of all, that is only applicable if everyone in a society has enough knowledge about what protection means, which methods are the most effective, and which methods aren't effective, as well as ready access to them. As I've said numerous times, sex ed in some countries-hell, actually, most countries-aren't exactly up to date. (Not even in the U.S-look at this link) There are places where if a woman goes up to the counter and asks for pills or condoms, strangers will stare at her, the pharmacist will make a choice remark about your sex life, and so on. Personally I went through this first-hand when I purchased my first set of pills because I was having horrid menstrual cycle due to stress.

 

Secondly, there are cases where you do use protection and it doesn't work. As I've mentioned above, this includes "protection" that aren't really protection but people think that it is, such as the pull-out method, and protection that ARE really protection. The fact that you said:

I don't know or care...

really speaks volumes about how callous your attitude towards this whole issue is. Because guess what? There are countries where if a woman gets pregnant before getting married, they can get 1) killed for "dishonoring" her family 2) killed while trying to get an illegal abortion 3) strongly pressured to kill herself 4) lose all means of making money (being fired, no one will hire her, etc) 5) society will brand you as an uneducated harlot 6) random strangers will call her out on her promiscuity etc. Sweeping that under the rug by saying that you don't know or care isn't a good strategy. Oh, and did I mention, there are cases where one of the parties cannot use protection because their partner forces them to have a child? There was a recent case where a woman gave away 3 of her kids to adoption centers and killed the other one, because her husband was pressuring her to have kids on top of the 4 that they already had. These are cases where your rights to your body is being violated, because the person is in an abusive, controlling marriage/relationship.

 

Lastly, I accept the possibility that you're a true neutral. That said, I don't see why someone would be okay with a society-many societies, actually-that 1) jeopardizes women's lives 2) often makes them lose their jobs 3) brands them and their future child and 4) while at the same time putting the blame on a person that may have not known/not had access to proper birth control. And before you go on about how you can just take your kids for adoption, just looking too young and pregnant is a huge stigma in many societies, the fact that your body is just being used as a baby machine-"oh you don't want a baby? Well too bad. Just give birth to it and give it away"-is not acceptable, and that adoption centers don't always have a group of happy orphans always getting adopted. More like, I'm stuck until I'm 16/17/18 during which I go through identity crisis, depression, being bullied, maltreatment, etc.

 

Edit:

 

But you seem not to have one; you seem neutral on everything. That isn't an opinion, that's more or less apathy.

Edited July 28, 2012 by ylangylang

[Brite]

What about the fetuses that ARE wanted but have to be aborted?

 

Edit: Saw a video today, so I want to ask the same question that was asked in the video.

For those of you who believe abortion should be illegal, what should the punishment by law be for those women who get illegal abortions?

I've seen similar videos. Many behave like they're against their own belief. Then some answered "therapy" as a punishment. Like that will do anything but brainwash

Edited July 30, 2012 by GhostChilli

[Fuzzbucket]

 

What about the fetuses that ARE wanted but have to be aborted?

 

Edit: Saw a video today, so I want to ask the same question that was asked in the video.

For those of you who believe abortion should be illegal, what should the punishment by law be for those women who get illegal abortions?

I've seen similar videos. Many behave like they're against their own belief. Then some answered "therapy" as a punishment. Like that will do anything but brainwash

 

None.

 

The punishment should be reserved for those who made abortions illegal.

 

 

 

[Wantdew]

If everyone was more neutral on a topic the world would be way better. That is my opinion.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Wantdew

[St. Jimmy]

If everyone was more neutral on a topic the world would be way better. That is my opinion.

Then nothing would ever get done.

[Wantdew]

Then nothing would ever get done.

Exactly! We still would survive because I never said we would just stop everything.

[St. Jimmy]

Well, until there are no more oppressive laws, I can't be neutral.

[7Deadly$ins]

Until you become neutral on the subject of your own survival.

[~Kat~]

Some think that our taxs do not go to agencies that do abortion. Ever listen or watch the Mike Huckabee on Fox News.

 

Well, peoples tax money do go to the abortion agencies to fund abortions here in the USA. It really makes me mad that my hard earned money will go to help people who engage in sexual activity without a thought to getting pregnant. These are the irresponsible people that I detest.

 

Yes I do believe in abortion for the health of the mother, rape or a very retarded child that probably will not make it if that is the choice one choices to make.

Edited July 30, 2012 by ~Kat~

[prairiecrow]

Some think that our taxs do not go to agencies that do abortion. Ever listen or watch the Mike Huckabee on Fox News.

 

Well, peoples tax money do go to the abortion agencies to fund abortions here in the USA. It really makes me mad that my hard earned money will go to help people who engage in sexual activity without a thought to getting pregnant. These are the irresponsible people that I detest.

 

Yes I do believe in abortion for the health of the mother, rape or a very retarded child that probably will not make it if that is the choice one choices to make.

I wouldn't trust anything on Fox News as far as I could spit. Did you know that they've been refused permission to establish a station here in Canada because we have *gasp!* laws against news broadcasters lying to the public, and Fox News has admitted in a court of law that it lies to its viewers?

 

As to your main point... so basically it's "They should have kept their legs shut"? Even in the case of married couples who don't want children, used contraception, and suffered a contraception failure? Even in the case of people who (again) suffered contraception failure and are on medications that carry a high risk of defects?

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying sounds an awful lot like punishing women for having sex. If abortion is wrong, shouldn't it be equally wrong under all circumstances, and not more wrong in the case of people who offend your sense of sexual morality?

Edited July 30, 2012 by prairiecrow

[~Kat~]

prairiecrow,

 

Please read this, and tell me what you get out of it

 

"Well, peoples tax money do go to the abortion agencies to fund abortions here in the USA. It really makes me mad that my hard earned money will go to help people who engage in sexual activity without a thought to getting pregnant. These are the irresponsible people that I detest."

 

These are the people that don't use contraceptives that I am talking about. They have sex and oh well, if they get pregnant, I will just have an abortion. Well do it on your own dime and not mine!!!

 

Plus, that is taking an innocent life that the couple could care less about for the sake of enjoyment.

Edited July 31, 2012 by ~Kat~

[Slaskia]

These are the people that don't use contraceptives that I am talking about. They have sex and oh well, if they get pregnant, I will just have an abortion. Well do it on your own dime and not mine!!!

 

Plus, that is taking an innocent life that the couple could care less about for the sake of enjoyment.

And...forcing the woman to give birth, whom will then likely neglect/abuse the resulting kid, if not leave it in a dumpster somewhere to die, is any better?

 

"There's adoption!" I can hear you say. Yeah...about that, our adoption system here in the USA is a piece of -bleep-. First off, the kid pretty much has to be a perfect, white baby to have the best chance of getting adopted in the first place. Not white? Have a disbility of some kind? Chances drop dramatically. Chances continue to drop the older the kid gets as well, cause adoptees usually want a baby, not an older kid.

 

Not helping is the adoption process itself. Many places have restrictions on what kids you are allowed to adopt: race is a big one, but I believe religion (or lack thereof) is factor as well. Marriage status and sexual orientation are also limiting factors (gays and singles are usually shown the door).

 

Then of course, there's the pickiness of the agents themselves whom may do everything in their power to not let you have that kid in the first place. My adoption was an example of that: my parents had to move to another STATE before they could adopt me because the agent they were dealing with in Calf was a -bleep- that did NOT want them to adopt me. And here's the kicker: it was my grandparents that wanted to adopt me!

 

Fix the adoption/foster care system first and maybe we'll talk about restricting the 8% or so of the women that use abortion as their birthcontrol. Actually...before I'll even consider it then: allow women that absolutely, without a doubt never wants to have kids to have themselves sterilized without being forced to be 35 and/or have kids already first, then we'll talk.

[LascielsShadow]

prairiecrow,

 

Please read this, and tell me what you get out of it

 

"Well, peoples tax money do go to the abortion agencies to fund abortions here in the USA. It really makes me mad that my hard earned money will go to help people who engage in sexual activity without a thought to getting pregnant. These are the irresponsible people that I detest."

 

These are the people that don't use contraceptives that I am talking about. They have sex and oh well, if they get pregnant, I will just have an abortion. Well do it on your own dime and not mine!!!

 

Plus, that is taking an innocent life that the couple could care less about for the sake of enjoyment.

There is no federal funding for abortions. None. There are multiple laws preventing federal tax dollars from being used to fund abortions. Funding organisations like Planned Parenthood=/= funding abortions. The majority of services places like PP provide are NOT abortions. They provide a lot of preventative care, especially for the poor (and especially poor women), cancer screenings, contraception, STD screenings, and other services. Only 3% of what PP does is abortions and, again, those are not federally funded. They're paid for by the individual receiving the service.

[~Kat~]

Slaskia

 

You are young and I understand your way of thinking. I read what you posted and all you are doing is putting a bandaid on the irresponsible people having sex and not using anything to stop getting pregnant, so that is easy, I can just have an abortion, so what. The thing is, the irresponsible things people do today, are not held responsible for their actions and it is getting worse and worse, just like crime is. Live and let live is the younger generations way of thinking these days. I am not old by any means. I was once your age, lol.

 

Look at all the people on Welfare, and have child after child, why should my hard earned money have to take care of them for thier ignorance!!!

[Slaskia]

Slaskia

 

You are young and I understand your way of thinking. I read what you posted and all you are doing is putting a bandaid on the irresponsible people having sex and not using anything to stop getting pregnant, so that is easy, I can just have an abortion, so what. The thing is, the irresponsible things people do today, are not held responsible for their actions and it is getting worse and worse, just like crime is. Live and let live is the younger generations way of thinking these days. I am not old by any means. I was once your age, lol.

 

Look at all the people on Welfare, and have child after child, why should my hard earned money have to take care of them for thier ignorance!!!

One correction: I'm 35, so I hardly consider myself 'young'.

 

Yes, I agree that people this day and age have the 'entitlement' mentality and won't take responsibility for their actions (welfare abusers are one of my banes as well).

 

BUT.

 

I draw the line where forcing someone to take responsiblity would likely cause the suffering of a child. It's far better in my opinion, for a child to never have tasted the breath of life, than to to born and suffer under an abusive parent or languish in our -bleep-y adoption/foster care system until they turn 18 and are kicked out into the world (or they commit suicide).

 

Do some make it out fine? Yes, those are the lucky ones: most are not so fortunate. Too many, in fact, are not fortunate, which IMO far negates the positive of those that pull though. For that reason, abortion must remain an option for everyone.

[tyto_alba]

Look at all the people on Welfare, and have child after child, why should my hard earned money have to take care of them for thier ignorance!!!

Let the people on welfare have abortions and they wouldn't have child after child.

 

Wa-hey.

[hydrargyrum]

What you have to keep in mind though, is that what you're really talking about is forcing a woman to have a child. Do you really trust the life of another, entirely dependent individual to a woman who is so irresponsible that she can't figure out birth control? And it's already been said that adoption isn't really an effective solution.

 

You even say "Look at all the people on Welfare, and have child after child, why should my hard earned money have to take care of them for thier ignorance!!!" and yet you want to deny them services that could prevent children. So which do you want, for them to get an abortion (although I don't know about the funding for it, LascielsShadow says is not your tax money) or for them to have ANOTHER kid (which would require more welfare funding)?

 

Also, what is your opinion of women who do use other forms of birth control, but it fails?

Edited July 31, 2012 by hydrargyrum

[KageSora]

Slaskia

 

You are  young and I understand your way of thinking. I read what you posted and all you are doing is putting a bandaid on the irresponsible people having sex and not using anything to stop getting pregnant, so that is easy, I can just have an abortion, so what. The thing is, the irresponsible things people do today, are not held responsible for their actions and it is getting worse and worse, just like crime is. Live and let live is the younger generations way of thinking these days. I am not old by any means. I was once your age, lol.

 

Look at all the people on Welfare, and have child after child, why should my hard earned money have to take care of them for thier ignorance!!!

Just saying, but if a person is that irresponsible that they rely on abortion as their primary birth control method, do you REALLY think they'd be fit parents?

 

 

Additionally, there are a lot of reasons they're not using proper birth control. Some are afraid to buy it because people will be insulting to them if they do. Others don't know where to get it, how to use it, what works best, etc.

 

 

Tthere are places in America where sex ed consists of being told "having sex before you get married is 100% guaranteed to give you AIDS."

 

I think if we really improved education on STDs/STIs, how to prevent and treat them, as well as birth control and how it's used, what choices there are, etc, then a lot of those people could avoid a pregnancy.

 

 

Obviously that won't 100% fix the problem, but I think it could really help to start fixing the problem.

 

 

I got a passable education in school (it wasn't great, but at least they touched on the basics which is more than I can say for a lot of other places), and was able to learn a lot on my own, so I know enough on how to take every measure I could to protect myself in the highly unlikely event I did end up having consensual sex. But too many people aren't so lucky, and don't realize what they need to do to protect themselves from pregnancy and/or STIs/STDs.

 

 

 

About welfare... Well, I think that's a bit of a different issue. The welfare system could use reform to help curb some of the abuse, for sure. Though there's no perfect system, I'd like to see it improved somehow.

Edited July 31, 2012 by KageSora

[hazeh]

There is no federal funding for abortions. None. There are multiple laws preventing federal tax dollars from being used to fund abortions. Funding organisations like Planned Parenthood=/= funding abortions. The majority of services places like PP provide are NOT abortions. They provide a lot of preventative care, especially for the poor (and especially poor women), cancer screenings, contraception, STD screenings, and other services. Only 3% of what PP does is abortions and, again, those are not federally funded. They're paid for by the individual receiving the service.

Quoting because I want to be sure this is seen.

 

Abortion agencies are PRIVATE DONATION ONLY. No tax dollars go to funding abortions.

[Shadowdrake]

I'm pro-choice. Yes, it's a horrible thing to destroy a life, even one that isn't certain to start on its own, but would you rather give a relatively quick death or a lifetime of probable suffering? And having more people on this planet will only make suffering and unwantedness more likely. Pregnancy isn't always due to carelessness, and if it is the parents aren't going to be too careful about their child either, will they? I'm pretty sure taking care of a kid to adulthood costs more than an abortion as well.

 

And yes, sex-ed needs to be fixed. (As do the health classes but that's another topic.)

 

People don't have to be neutral, just less extreme.