Abortion

[Princess Artemis]

But they didn't die in that case. Parasitic masses and tumors are still alive. Some actually still breathe.

That certainly doesn't mean they weren't babies before they became masses or tumors. For a while, there is still something alive in a person who has died--in the case of someone who died because of a tumor, the tumor is very likely going to be the last part of them to go.

 

Point is, whether humans have babies or have things which can become babies is not a matter of fact. It's an opinion, wherein lies a good part of the debate.

[Syaoransbear]

For some people, it is. Shiny had a case once where someone adopted a baby and ended up giving up rights because she found herself unable to bond with it.

That seems kind of strange. Grandparents always seem able to bond with their grandchildren even though they never birthed it and don't really have that much genetically in common with it compared to its parent.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Syaoransbear

[NobleOwl]

That seems kind of strange. Grandparents always seem able to bond with their grandchildren even though they never birthed it and don't really have that much genetically in common with it compared to its parent.

Not always true either, and seen a lot of the time with adopted grandchildren -- they're often treated differently than biological grandchildren.

 

Even in my case, my grandparents treat my Pito (birthed by me) and Kai (not birthed by me) very different.

[Syaoransbear]

Not always true either, and seen a lot of the time with adopted grandchildren -- they're often treated differently than biological grandchildren.

 

Even in my case, my grandparents treat my Pito (birthed by me) and Kai (not birthed by me) very different.

That's so sad

[Brite]

That's a big ol' "Prove it" if there ever was one.  Given that's the crux of most of the issue, just stating your opinion like it's a fact won't fly.

 

And before you say, "It can be a tumor or a parasitic mass or a this or a that!"  Yes, it can.  But an adult can become a tumor too (if they lived long enough through the process).  Pretty ugly way to die.  An adult can become a petrified fossil under the right circumstances.  That doesn't mean they aren't an adult before they died.  So saying the results of human procreation can become these things en-route to becoming a neonate is not conclusive proof that they weren't a baby (a child, a human, a life, a ____) the entire time.  It could just as likely mean they died very young.

 

So.  Prove it.

Simple from what a baby really is, outside and dependent of it's mother's body and is pretty much a human infant, what a baby is, compared to a fetus which can be several things, as you guessed. I don't see an actual baby becoming any of those.

 

 

 

That certainly doesn't mean they weren't babies before they became masses or tumors. For a while, there is still something alive in a person who has died--in the case of someone who died because of a tumor, the tumor is very likely going to be the last part of them to go.

 

Fetus>>>tumor ect. Scary but possible

 

Fetus/Baby>>>>Tumor ect. Does not compute

Edited July 8, 2012 by GhostChilli

[babybluefire]

Don't be childish and educate yourself for goodness sake.  I really don't want to argue with you lot anymore because you're all just so wierd.  Wouldn't mind if it was an intelligent argument but it's not.  You're making yourselves look like idiots, so I guess, be my guest and go right ahead and do that while I get on with worthwhile things because you're too silly, too ignorant and too young to listen or to accept the facts.  I have been, as I said, aware of abortion methods for 22 years.  Try reading what I said properly because you're just looking sillier and sillier.

I am married, have children of my own. I have experienced childbirth and have miscarried. I had insurance refused to pay for a d and c when I miscarried because the sake had continued to grow with nothing in it so my blood hcg kept going up. I had to wait around for months until I miscarried on my own. It was longer more painful and traumatic then natural childbirth. I have seen my friends miscarried baby pictures taken right off facebook and used as pro-life propaganda. Some Catholic hospitals/OBGYNS will not even induce labor if a child has died and is decomposing.

 

 

 

I was asked to edit because it was considered rude.

 

I have vast amounts of both personal and medial experience. I would suggest politely that you reeducate your self using non pro life propaganda WRT the subject at hand. Your incorrect statements are extremely hurtful to those who have gone threw the circumstances.

Edited July 8, 2012 by babybluefire

[Princess Artemis]

Simple from what a baby really is, outside and dependent of it's mother's body and is pretty much a human infant, what a baby is, compared to a fetus which can be several things, as you guessed. I don't see an actual baby becoming any of those.

This does not appear to be proof that abortion doesn't kill babies, which is what you stated as a fact earlier and I asked you to prove.

[babybluefire]

I thought to add. Abortion is sometimes 100% necessary for wanted pregnancy's that have defects incompatible with life, fetal demise or have miscarried BECAUSE as long as health insurance in the US is for profit they will seek the best way for them to save and make money.

 

Insurance will turn down early induction and DandC because telling the mother to go spend a few hundred at a clinic saves the insurance company tens of thousands to the local hospital.

[_Z_]

Reminder: Rudeness is unacceptable, attack the topic not each other.

[Victini]

I wholeheartedly support abortion. Nobody should have the right to tell *anybody* what they can and cannot do with their own bodies.

 

I feel like I'm interrupting a debate so I'm just going to quietly leave okay bye

[Brite]

This does not appear to be proof that abortion doesn't kill babies, which is what you stated as a fact earlier and I asked you to prove.

 

It kills. Kills cells that can make up the same thing to my arm or finger. So it would be no different than me cutting off my finger.

 

Yup it's killing. But perfectly acceptable killing. Har.

 

I feel like I'm interrupting a debate so I'm just going to quietly leave okay bye

 

You're welcome to give your opinions and thoughts

Edited July 8, 2012 by GhostChilli

[Obscure_Trash]

It kills. Kills cells that can make up the same thing to my arm or finger. So it would be no different than me cutting off my finger.

 

Yup it's killing. But perfectly acceptable killing. Har.

I think what PArtemis is getting at is that whether or not abortion kills babies is an opinion and, in fact, the whole crux of the abortion controversy. You and I can say it isn't killing babies, but for others, the fact that something is being killed that could become a baby/is forming into a baby is killing a baby.

[Sorrowgrave]

abortion is good.

Prolife is bad.

 

I've been stalking our forum's resident social worker's posts for a year, she's talked about how some children as young as seven wish they were never born and had to be put on suicide watch. Shiny's also mentioned how once the kids age out of the system many kill themselves because they have no source of income, no real skills, and no one to take care of them.

 

people want healthy WHITE babies, with no special needs or the baggage older children bring, one out of every 100 maybe would adopt a older child, and I think I'm overestimating that number as it is.

 

what's worse,

putting a kid threw a short 18 year hell-ride, or aborting and sparing them that life?

 

Prolifers are like the PETA For people. I know some that adopt as many children as they can afford too, others hate kids and think they know what's best for a complete stranger's life.

 

 

 

And on the subject of rape babies,

 

it's all up to the mother there. I'm sticking my foot in my mouth on that subject.

 

personally if I got pregnant I'd go right to the planned parenting clinic and abort. I'm asexual, I HATE infants (the 2% of the time their cute and cuddly is fine, but that 98% of hell NO) and I'm even in a relationship with another woman who also does not want children.

heck my brother is more maturnal than I am, when I was seven I would stomp the heads off of baby dolls, he'd be the one putting them back together and in the craddle.

 

 

[Brite]

personally if I got pregnant I'd go right to the planned parenting clinic and abort. I'm asexual, I HATE infants (the 2% of the time their cute and cuddly is fine, but that 98% of hell NO) and I'm even in a relationship with another woman who also does not want children.

heck my brother is more maturnal than I am, when I was seven I would stomp the heads off of baby dolls, he'd be the one putting them back together and in the craddle

 

I could use this as a reason for sterilization but again, they'll just be saying things like "Lulz, you're silly, you'll want a baby soon even though you don't realize it. So...ACCESS DENIED"

[Princess Artemis]

I think what PArtemis is getting at is that whether or not abortion kills babies is an opinion and, in fact, the whole crux of the abortion controversy.

Yes, that would be exactly what I'm getting at. Stating one way or another as if it's a fact...proof plz. Opinion, well, we all have those.

 

abortion is good.

 

O_O

 

Even the most solidly pro-choice people I know don't go that far.

 

people want healthy WHITE babies

 

All except for the people who don't. There are even a good few white people who would love to adopt kids that are darker skinned than they, knowing those kids need homes, but have been refused because some people feel it is wrong and bad for a person to be raised by people of a different color. So you can blame the racists in every flavor of people who don't want kids adopted because there is a color mis-match for part of that.

 

what's worse,

putting a kid threw a short 18 year hell-ride, or aborting and sparing them that life? 

 

This is an argument too dangerously close to those that are used to support eugenics for me, personally, to allow it a foothold in my opinions on this subject.

[sheltielover1]

I'm Pro-life. I've come to accept that abortion will probably never be completely illegal, or that there will never be absolutely no abortions but I believe that things can and should be done to bring the number of abortions down as low as possible.

 

 

A few statistics and my opinions on them. This data is from 1998, couldn't find anything more recent.

25.9% Want to postpone childbearing

-I believe that they should be more careful about their sexual activity and birth control practices. Also, I believe in some cases this is a selfish motive. If having a baby will interrupt your "social life," and you get an abortion, I see this as being selfish. Take responsibility for your actions. I support the use of birth control (not necessarily public/taxplayer funded) but that people should take responsibility for their actions. If you are going to be sexually active and do not want a child at that time, use effective birth control. No form of birth control (except abstinence) will ever be 100% effective. If you cant afford it or want to definitely avoid, maybe you should choose not to have sex. Sex exists to create offspring. I think if all people took more responsibility, the amount of people having abortions for this reason would sharply decrease.

 

21.3% Cannot afford a baby

-as stated above, take responsibility for your actions and be smart. I was helping at a homeless shelter a few weeks ago and saw an unmarried woman there with six kids (I believe that there were at least 3/4 different fathers involved). I've heard stories of impoverished people having large numbers of abortions. While again, I do not support abortion in this case, personal responsibility and common sense is key. If you can't afford a baby and birth control, choose to have less/no sex. Don't be promiscuous, sex has its consequences. I think in several situations the parenting (or lack there-of) is an issue here, If children are raised in households where unprotected/young/unwed/casual sex is accepted or constantly occurs, they will be raised to believe this all is ok, especially if parents avoid the topic. (yes I said unwed, I am a christian and I am waiting until marriage and believe others should as well, God created sex for married people. This is my opinion and I am welcome to it).

 

14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy

-If your partner/spouse is abusive, GET OUT of the relationship. If they don't want to take care of or have children, this should be discussed before sexual activity occurs. If sex outside of marriage did not occur, the amount of abortions here would shrink tremendously as well. Those who are married are much more likely to agree/disagree on whether or not they want children. (another reason I believe sex is for marriage). Some of these disputes would not occur. Take more responsibility, be smart, and PLEASE do not stay in abusive relationships. If your partner will not support your pregnancy, maybe they are the wrong person to be with and they are the problem, not the baby.

 

12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy

-Again, we are in a sexual culture and people as young as 11 and 12 are having sex. If you don't necessarily believe that sex should be saved for marriage, I don't see why people support having sex this young. There is an age of consent (16-18) for a reason. Children should not be having sex. GOOD PARENTING is key here, if you're going to support/not oppose your teens having sex at least teach them about birth control. And never just assume that they aren't having sex. If they are pregnant, be supportive of them and teach them to be responsible about the baby, allowing your child to abort in most cases seems to me to be highly irresponsible cause it just teaches them that their actions don't have consequences and taking "the easy way out" in big situations is ok.

 

10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job

-Personal responsibility, not being promiscuous...ect (see where I keep going?). Look at other options, adoption, daycare, seeing if others will help to take care of the child.

 

7.9% Want no (more) children

-I believe if you know you don't want more children, you should get yourself sterilized. At the very least use several forms of birth control and be smart about your sexual activity.

*edit- TikindiDragon pointed out its difficult to get a doctor to agree to sterilize. I didn't know it was that difficult, I think it would be better if it wasn't so hard to find a willing doctor to do it for younger adults*

 

For all of the reasons above, adoption seems to me to be one of the best options. There are many couples willing to adopt, actively searching and finding an adoption agency/people willing to adopt/relatives willing to adopt is the best thing you can do, especially if you feel you can't give the best care to the child. So many couples and others want to adopt because they can't have kids or other reasons, all it may take is a little effort on your part and can be the best situation for you and your child!

 

3.3% Risk to fetal health

-This is one of the touchier ones. If the child is at a point where it can potentially live a healthy life outside the womb, perhaps consider an early birth (I'm no doctor but I know that abortion is not the only option here!!) If the baby has a medical condition or disability, I believe it is somewhat selfish to abort for that reason. Many disabled children can live near normal lives, and again consider adoption if you feel you can't adequately care for the child). In many cases these problems are found later in the pregnancy so the child may be able to live outside the womb. In the US, abortion is legal through the end of the 2nd trimester, many of these babies can survive outside the womb then and I personally believe that if the baby can live outside the womb, it should be illegal for it to be aborted.

 

2.8% Risk to maternal health

-Another touchy, hard to deal with case. If it comes to the point where the mother will die unless the baby is removed, I think all effort should be made to save them both, the baby as well, especially if there is a decent chance it can survive. This is one of the few places where it is hard for me to disagree on abortion 100% of the time as well.

 

2.1% Other

-Not sure what all of these "other" reasons are, so I can't really comment on them.

 

 

But overall, I believe that numbers of abortions can be reduced if more responsibility is taken and taught, and in about 75%-85% of the cases adoption should be considered. I am most against abortion in cases where it is because the parent(s) don't want to "deal with" the baby. If you can't afford it or take care of it, be more responsible.

 

I'm only 17 now, but when I am older and married I believe I will strongly consider adopting a child. I know I want to have children of my own but already I am thinking about adopting in the future as well.

 

Sorry for such a long post, didn't realize how long it would be

Edited July 10, 2012 by sheltielover1

[TikindiDragon]

7.9% Want no (more) children

-I believe if you know you don't want more children, you should get yourself sterilized.

I really, really, really, really wish I could find a doctor that would sterelize me. I'm on the autism spectrum - I *know* I'm never going to want kids, and I'm 28 now dammit by body clock isn't going to suddenly start ticking. Unfortunately because I'm under 35, and have no children (because I don't want them... circular logic on the doctors part) they won't do it.

[Syaoransbear]

Pro-lifers want people to be more responsible, but at the same time they want to ban commonly used forms of birth control. And doctors don't want to sterilize women until they are over 35 with multiple children already. Funny, huh?

 

I don't really see a big difference between aborting a fetus that isn't conscious and not getting pregnant at all. Seems like in both cases a life doesn't live, which seems like the issue people have the biggest problem with.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Syaoransbear

[7Deadly$ins]

Pro-lifers want people to be more responsible, but at the same time they want to ban commonly used forms of birth control. And doctors don't want to sterilize women until they are over 35 with multiple children already. Funny, huh?

 

I don't really see a big difference between aborting a fetus that isn't conscious and not getting pregnant at all. Seems like in both cases a life doesn't live, which seems like the issue people have the biggest problem with.

Every month we women selfishly destroy what could have been a life.

[sheltielover1]

I really, really, really, really wish I could find a doctor that would sterelize me. I'm on the autism spectrum - I *know* I'm never going to want kids, and I'm 28 now dammit by body clock isn't going to suddenly start ticking. Unfortunately because I'm under 35, and have no children (because I don't want them... circular logic on the doctors part) they won't do it.

I didn realize it was that difficult to get sterilized. I honestly don't understand or know why so many doctors are unwilling to do it.

[7Deadly$ins]

I didn realize it was that difficult to get sterilized. I honestly don't understand or know why so many doctors are unwilling to do it.

Because of course every woman wants to have babies, so what if you change your mind? Surely you will think different when you're older and that biological clock starts a-tickin', of course.

 

In many places it is equally difficult to adopt children, and most children don't ever get adopted.

[Dr. Paine]

 

For all of the reasons above, adoption seems to me to be one of the best options. There are many couples willing to adopt, actively searching and finding an adoption agency/people willing to adopt/relatives willing to adopt is the best thing you can do, especially if you feel you can't give the best care to the child. So many couples and others want to adopt because they can't have kids or other reasons, all it may take is a little effort on your part and can be the best situation for you and your child!

 

What about women who are legitimately terrified of being pregnant? Who can't stand the thought of giving birth, and are at risk for serious health concerns? What about women who are disgusted with the current state of the adoption system, where (to my last knowledge) only 3-4 out of every hundred are adopted out, and the remaining children are faced with ever-dwindling odds of finding a family, and are incredibly at risk to take their own lives?

 

Adoption doesn't improve as many lives as it might 'save'. Yes, it's a chance at life but what kind of life is it? A life where you're unloved and unwanted, and have to remember that every day? What about children born to uncaring or neglectful parents, who are too young or just can't/won't otherwise take the right steps to be a parent, and don't have any family to help? I'm sure some girls might be lucky in that regard, but for every one that gets help, there's sure to be another who's kicked out or disowned for getting pregnant. Especially with younger mothers-- their bodies might not even be properly formed to birth a child yet. And you can't pull the 'get sterilized' card for people who have no children, by the way-- as has been discussed, very few doctors will ever sterilize a woman if she's under 35 and/or doesn't have children yet. Should those who never want children just be forced to remain celibate until they're 36? Sex is for far more than reproduction when it comes to the human species-- if it were strictly to make children, we'd have heat cycles like many other animals. It's become a bonding activity as well, something to do for fun and pleasure, and there's nothing wrong with just enjoying it and not wanting a baby to come out of it.

 

How/why someone gets pregnant isn't something that should be focused on. Yes, some people have rather unsafe sex. That's their choice. Others do their best to stay protected, but sometimes it fails. Should those people be told 'sorry, but you knew the risks so now you have to pop out a baby whether you like it or not'? In a similar vein, should we deny medical service to victims of car crashes, job accidents, or... well, anyone who gets hurt in any activity that poses a risk of some form?

 

Abortion IS taking responsibility for a pregnancy. It is a woman recognizing that, for whatever reason, she is unable to provide the proper life for a child, and is for whatever reason, unable to carry it. The reasons don't matter. What matters is that all women should have access to safe termination of unwanted pregnancies, or we'll start losing more than fetuses.

 

ETA: And shetilover, I am aware you said that you're more for lowering the number of abortions than outright ending them ^^' I apologize if this came off as a bit confrontational, I'm just a bit touchy on the subject tonight after a couple of rather infuriating commercials << I'm just really sick of adoption being touted as some perfect alternate to abortion...

Edited July 10, 2012 by Dr. Paine

[sheltielover1]

What about women who are legitimately terrified of being pregnant? Who can't stand the thought of giving birth, and are at risk for serious health concerns? What about women who are disgusted with the current state of the adoption system, where (to my last knowledge) only 3-4 out of every hundred are adopted out, and the remaining children are faced with ever-dwindling odds of finding a family, and are incredibly at risk to take their own lives?

 

Adoption doesn't improve as many lives as it might 'save'. Yes, it's a chance at life but what kind of life is it? A life where you're unloved and unwanted, and have to remember that every day? What about children born to uncaring or neglectful parents, who are too young or just can't/won't otherwise take the right steps to be a parent, and don't have any family to help? I'm sure some girls might be lucky in that regard, but for every one that gets help, there's sure to be another who's kicked out or disowned for getting pregnant. Especially with younger mothers-- their bodies might not even be properly formed to birth a child yet. And you can't pull the 'get sterilized' card for people who have no children, by the way-- as has been discussed, very few doctors will ever sterilize a woman if she's under 35 and/or doesn't have children yet. Should those who never want children just be forced to remain celibate until they're 36? Sex is for far more than reproduction when it comes to the human species-- if it were strictly to make children, we'd have heat cycles like many other animals. It's become a bonding activity as well, something to do for fun and pleasure, and there's nothing wrong with just enjoying it and not wanting a baby to come out of it.

 

How/why someone gets pregnant isn't something that should be focused on. Yes, some people have rather unsafe sex. That's their choice. Others do their best to stay protected, but sometimes it fails. Should those people be told 'sorry, but you knew the risks so now you have to pop out a baby whether you like it or not'? In a similar vein, should we deny medical service to victims of car crashes, job accidents, or... well, anyone who gets hurt in any activity that poses a risk of some form?

 

Abortion IS taking responsibility for a pregnancy. It is a woman recognizing that, for whatever reason, she is unable to provide the proper life for a child, and is for whatever reason, unable to carry it. The reasons don't matter. What matters is that all women should have access to safe termination of unwanted pregnancies, or we'll start losing more than fetuses.

 

ETA: And shetilover, I am aware you said that you're more for lowering the number of abortions than outright ending them ^^' I apologize if this came off as a bit confrontational, I'm just a bit touchy on the subject tonight after a couple of rather infuriating commercials << I'm just really sick of adoption being touted as some perfect alternate to abortion...

For the women who are terrified or at extreme risk, therefore they know they definitely don't want children, that's why I put sterilization. I know now it is difficult for many in those situations to get, especially if they don't have other children. But for them, sterilization or long term birth control or abstinence seem to be the best options.

 

As for the adoptive children, I've looked at some statistics and from what I've seen nearly all infants who are up for adoption get adopted out, and into loving homes. Aside from a slightly larger percentage of them having health problems, they seem to live in homes that are just as or more loving and caring and do as well as other children. They are not unloved or uncared for.

http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/09/NSAP/chartbook/index.pdf

 

As for younger/teenage/unwed mothers. You pointed out that their bodies are not ready for childbirth, so in that case if they recognize that then they should recognize that they are not ready to be having sex. I know that seems more of an after the fact thought, which is why I also think we as a society need to become less "sexualized". Kids who are barely out of elementary school are having sex and becoming pregnant. When I was that age I was supervised and would have never even considered having sex with anyone. Parents need to take more responsibility for ther kids. As for these women who are raped, I know that the percentages of pregnancies and abortions as a result are in the low single digits, it is not anywhere near the majority. Instead of making abortion the huge issue, we need to focus more on our views. Sex at such a young age should not be supported, there is an age of consent for a reason.

 

I do understand that there is bonding and more of a purpose than children to sex. It is completely reasonable to not want to have a baby every time you have sex. The bonding part is a reason I believe God made it for marriage, to bring 2 people closer together. Sex is a human desire, lust is as well. (I know not everyone shares my views, and they dont have to,just stating my opinion.)

 

Unsafe sex is rather irresponsible, pregnancy and STIs can result and are much more likely to occur. I think some people fail to recognize how irresponsible it is because lots don't see abortion as ending a life. You said why don't we deny people help from car accidents/other inherently risky activities then. The risk and results are completely different . Surgery on a broken leg or arm from an accident is completely different from ending the life of an unborn child. Even if they are not fully developed with conscious thoughts and emotions when they are still in the womb in the first trimester, they are still fully alive. Comparing those two doesn make sense because it they are completely different

 

I don't get why so many talk about how horrible the life of a child may be outside of the womb or worry they will die or kill themselves young but while they are in the womb they dont see ending the life as bad. Is it because the baby isn't fully developed? What of it could survive outside of the womb?

 

And don't worry, you aren't confrontational! I hope I don't come off that way either, I just enjoy a good, reasonable debate. And yes, I believe that it is better to prevent the unwanted pregnancies in the first place. I know the world is not perfect and that legal or not, abortions will occur. I really think that reaching out and helping women with unwanted pregnancies search for other options, or helping prevent unwanted pregnancies from occurring is much more beneficial than outright banning all abortion. I dont agree with all the current laws, but I know some won't change. Adoption Isnt the 100% perfect solution nor will it ever be. To me focusing on preventing situations where abortion would be used/"needed" is key! Which is why I support people being on birth control, sterilization being available for those who want it, and an overall attitude supporting safer sex for those not wanting to get pregnant is necessary!

[7Deadly$ins]

Arguing the "what if it could survive out of the womb" point is moot. Not many people are in favor of such late term abortions. Most people get them done at or before eight weeks, at which point it is really barely there.

[TikindiDragon]

And yes, I believe that it is better to prevent the unwanted pregnancies in the first place. I know the world is not perfect and that legal or not, abortions will occur. I really think that reaching out and helping women with unwanted pregnancies search for other options, or helping prevent unwanted pregnancies from occurring is much more beneficial than outright banning all abortion. I dont agree with all the current laws, but I know some won't change. Adoption Isnt the 100% perfect solution nor will it ever be. To me focusing on preventing situations where abortion would be used/"needed" is key! Which is why I support people being on birth control, sterilization being available for those who want it, and an overall attitude supporting safer sex for those not wanting to get pregnant is necessary!

I just wanted to say thank you for this - I wish all the pro-lifers I spoke to were this sensible and reasonable about things!