Abortion

[GeekyWitch]

Uh, that's a late term abortion. Most abortions happen before the fetus even *has* limbs. this image is of an 8-9 week old fetus. Unfortunately there's nothing there to show scale, but let me assure you that it wouldn't require being broken down to be removed.

 

You may wish to do a little more research into the development of a human embryo before you begin claiming 'lack of knowledge'.

That's not late term abortion...that's 12 weeks plus which is only 3 months. A woman won't even quite be starting to 'show' at this point. It's possible she might not even know she's pregnant at this point in the trimester if she does not have a regular cycle. A great deal of abortions, therefore, do unfortunately happen at this point in the trimester or later. Late term abortion involves inducing labour and giving birth to the child then letting it die. They are very often then just thrown in the trash. I have been doing research on this for 22 years. I am a 36 year old woman, I have a uterus, I know how pregnancy works and I have read just about all there is to read on it. I suggest you start doing some of your own so you don't end up making yourself look so darn silly.

[prairiecrow]

Just because you know at 19yrs that you will never have kids, doesn't mean that you really never want to have kids.

Actually, yes, sometimes it does. I knew at age ten that I didn't want to have kids. I'm now approaching fifty, and I still loathe the idea of bearing a child just as intensely.

 

There are plenty of women out there who don't want children and know it from a very early age. I see no reason why we should be denied the extent of reproductive choice provided by voluntary sterilization. (As for legalities, surely there's a lawyer out there somewhere who could draw up a waiver air-tight enough to protect physicians from legal repercussions? I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of the resistance to sterilizing women on request has a to do with a lingering "Hur hur hur, silly wimminz! She'll want to carry some man's child someday, she's just too stupid to know it!" attitude.)

 

ETA: for the record, I was sterilized at age twenty-six because I was lucky enough to find a doctor who would actually listen to me.

Edited July 6, 2012 by prairiecrow

[babybluefire]

Uh, that's a late term abortion. Most abortions happen before the fetus even *has* limbs. this image is of an 8-9 week old fetus. Unfortunately there's nothing there to show scale, but let me assure you that it wouldn't require being broken down to be removed.

 

You may wish to do a little more research into the development of a human embryo before you begin claiming 'lack of knowledge'.

Exactly. Almost all of abortions are not late term abortion. And those that are is usually when a massive defect incompatible with life is found. For example my health insurance will not cover an early induction. At all. So If in the case of fetal demise or a defect incompatible with life I could choose to let the pregnancy run its course, risking my life for a dead baby or I could choose to go to an abortion clinic to save my own life and give my current children and possible future children a mother.

 

 

Further more many of the pictures that pro-life activist use are not aborted baby's. They are whole and in one piece and very far along. They are often discolored. Those are not abortions. Those are miscarried often very much wanted infants. Those may be the only pictures the parents ever had of their child.

[GeekyWitch]

Exactly. Almost all of abortions are not late term abortion. And those that are is usually when a massive defect incompatible with life is found. For example my health insurance will not cover an early induction. At all. So If in the case of fetal demise or a defect incompatible with life I could choose to let the pregnancy run its course, risking my life for a dead baby or I could choose to go to an abortion clinic to save my own life and give my current children and possible future children a mother.

 

 

Further more many of the pictures that pro-life activist use are not aborted baby's. They are whole and in one piece and very far along. They are often discolored. Those are not abortions. Those are miscarried often very much wanted infants. Those may be the only pictures the parents ever had of their child.

The pro life pictures are of aborted babies. Miscarried children are not thrown in the trash they are often, if large enough, given a burial. I've known of quite a few ladies who have experience this. My next door neighbour was a nurse and used to be pro abortion but witnessed a late term abotion of induced labour and saw the child being thrown in the trash. She was distressed and picked it up and carried it to the doctors begging them to revive it but they refused so she ran out in tears and was anti abortion ever since. Even if most abortions are not late term you are still taking a life and the early term abortion suction method also involves shredding the child down a suction tube.

 

What do you mean bluefire by the rathr clouded terms like 'fetal demise' or 'defect incompatable with life'? If you mean by 'fetal demise': child already dead then inducing labour is not an abortion. That's a miscarraige. Removing an already dead child from the mother's womb is very different to killing a living child.

Edited July 6, 2012 by GeekyWitch

[Syaoransbear]

Even if most abortions are not late term you are still taking a life and the early term abortion suction method also involves shredding the child down a suction tube.

Early term abortion method involves you, a pill, and a toilet.

[7Deadly$ins]

Not very many people support late-term abortions, so arguing about it is sort of moot.

[GeekyWitch]

Early term abortion method involves you, a pill, and a toilet.

No...that's the morning after pill.

[Syaoransbear]

No...that's the morning after pill.

No, it's not.

 

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-to...ortion-4354.asp

 

"The abortion pill is a medicine that ends an early pregnancy. In general, it can be used up to 63 days — 9 weeks — after the first day of a woman's last period. "

 

You need to read more. You are too ignorant to effectively argue this topic.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Syaoransbear

[GeekyWitch]

No, it's not.

Don't be childish and educate yourself for goodness sake. I really don't want to argue with you lot anymore because you're all just so wierd. Wouldn't mind if it was an intelligent argument but it's not. You're making yourselves look like idiots, so I guess, be my guest and go right ahead and do that while I get on with worthwhile things because you're too silly, too ignorant and too young to listen or to accept the facts. I have been, as I said, aware of abortion methods for 22 years. Try reading what I said properly because you're just looking sillier and sillier.

Edited July 6, 2012 by GeekyWitch

[Syaoransbear]

Don't be childish and educate yourself for goodness sake.  I really don't want to argue with you lot anymore because you're all just so wierd.  Wouldn't mind if it was an intelligent argument but it's not.  You're making yourselves look like idiots, so I guess, be my guest and go right ahead and do that while I get on with worthwhile thngs because you're too silly, too ignorant and too young to listen or to accept the facts.

"The abortion pill is a medicine that ends an early pregnancy. In general, it can be used up to 63 days — 9 weeks — after the first day of a woman's last period. "

 

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-to...ortion-4354.asp

 

The morning after pill does not work for up to 63 morning afters.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Syaoransbear

[7Deadly$ins]

Don't be childish and educate yourself for goodness sake. I really don't want to argue with you lot anymore because you're all just so wierd. Wouldn't mind if it was an intelligent argument but it's not. You're making yourselves look like idiots, so I guess, be my guest and go right ahead and do that while I get on with worthwhile thngs because you're too silly, too ignorant and too young to listen or to accept the facts.

How about try actually addressing the information, instead of ad hominems?

[Princess Artemis]

Actually, yes, sometimes it does. I knew at age ten that I didn't want to have kids. I'm now approaching fifty, and I still loathe the idea of bearing a child just as intensely.

 

There are plenty of women out there who don't want children and know it from a very early age. I see no reason why we should be denied the extent of reproductive choice provided by voluntary sterilization. [...]

 

ETA: for the record, I was sterilized at age twenty-six because I was lucky enough to find a doctor who would actually listen to me.

I was pretty much the same way. Knew then, know now. Mind never changed at all. Some people really do just know. Some people, I imagine, don't. And they are the ones bringing the lawsuits. (I am assuming actual lawsuits have been brought, and that this is not a boogeyman

 

I don't see any reason why we ought be denied either (provided we've got the money to pay for all of what is absolutely elective--including in and especially in countries with socialized healthcare), but again, we must find someone willing to do it. It takes two to tango. I see no reason why women ought believe they are more special than the provider of an elective medical service--if the provider says no, move to the next one. If that one says no, move to the next one. Or try to convince them--if giving them air-tight legal refuge is what needs to be done, do it. Don't, instead, feel that just because you possess a vagina, that your will should override theirs.

 

Glad to hear you found someone. Seems to me that at twenty-five or twenty-six, people are past their "I know everything" teenaged years enough for doctors to feel they know themselves well enough to truly want an elective surgery. Seems to be the issue is societal feelings on the subject need to be adjusted, rather than, "I am me, therefore everyone must give me what I want!"

[Vhale]

Sadly, while it seems that most people here agree that abortions involving, well, dead unborn, aren't abortions, legislators are still working to stop them. I guess in order to prove Severely Conservative credentials, politicians keep upping the stakes in what they are trying to make illegal. For example.

 

In Iowa, Republicans are currently trying remove medicaid funding for poor women that get abortions in these circumstances. Citation

 

In fiscal year 2012, there were 22 Medicaid-paid abortions performed in Iowa. Fifteen of those abortions were the result of severe fetal anomalies, five were performed to save the mother, and two were for pregnancies that were the result of rape.

 

A very small number, but as other states found out, even if the child is born a quadraplegic vegetable the taxpayers get to provide the upkeep in the millions of dollars when it's born.

 

Or take Kansas, who has been placing anti-abortion activists in key government positions. One recent result is that a doctor who assisted a 10 year old in aborting her uncle's child, had her license to practice medicine revoked. Citation

 

 

[Princess Artemis]

Sadly, while it seems that most people here agree that abortions involving, well, dead unborn, aren't abortions, legislators are still working to stop them.

Vhale, your example did not include even one 'abortion' of a dead unborn. Unless you are seriously saying that severely disabled = dead, or that child conceived as a result of rape = dead, or child that threatens mother's health = dead.

 

I am not going to comment on the rest, because it's quite difficult to do so while feeling utterly repulsed by such an opening to a post.

[7Deadly$ins]

The problem with doctors fearing legal cases is that whether you say you wouldn't file or not, they can't trust that anymore than they trust that you 100% are never going to change your mind.

[prairiecrow]

The problem with doctors fearing legal cases is that whether you say you wouldn't file or not, they can't trust that anymore than they trust that you 100% are never going to change your mind.

Again, are you honestly contending that there isn't a law firm out there clever enough to write an iron-clad no-fault contract for woman to sign before the surgery?

[Kestra15]

Don't be childish and educate yourself for goodness sake.  I really don't want to argue with you lot anymore because you're all just so wierd.  Wouldn't mind if it was an intelligent argument but it's not.  You're making yourselves look like idiots, so I guess, be my guest and go right ahead and do that while I get on with worthwhile things because you're too silly, too ignorant and too young to listen or to accept the facts.  I have been, as I said, aware of abortion methods for 22 years.  Try reading what I said properly because you're just looking sillier and sillier.

As the nurse here with a pharmacist as my partner, I think you'll find that I am intelligent and educated. And I'm afraid most if not all of what you've posted is wrong or sensationalised.

 

I wouldn't make a legal case. However, I have known, like prairiecrow, that I was never going to have children from a very young age. Seven years old, in fact. I never played house, and I sure as hell didn't play with baby dolls.

That's not good enough for a doctor I'm afraid. And (also in response to Praire) you're right, some people don't change at all. But we can't tell who will and who won't, and we don't know ourselves if we will or when we will. So how can anyone trust us to remain the same? Sorry, but I wouldn't risk my registration on it, and neither would most doctors - even if you didn't put it down on a piece of paper.

 

(In case I haven't mentioned before; I am one of those who would love to have been sterilised at 18yrs and am mortally afraid of being a father. So I do understand where you are coming from with your opinions, trust me. I just also know that I wouldn't risk it from the other side ;~) )

Edited July 6, 2012 by Kestra15

[KageSora]

The pro life pictures are of aborted babies.

No, not all of them.

 

This was passed around as a picture of a "fetus aborted at 10 weeks with rusty knives". That is a picture of Lord Voldemort's soul from the last Harry Potter movie. :|

 

So no, not all of those pictures circulated as pro-life are accurate. Many are altered or, in this case, not even a freakin' fetus in the first place.

 

 

You sound like a person who has ONLY done research using pro-life sources. I've only seen people argue like you who have ONLY looked into pro-life sources.

 

Please, I'd like very much if you could provide reliable sources for this information--with 22 years of research, you must surly be able to provide widely-accepted credible sources for your statements. Try something other than personal/second-hand anecdotes, too, as those aren't always reliable.

 

 

(ETA: I will, however, consent that BOTH SIDES have people who spread lies and misinformation out of ignorance and/or intent to convert people to their cause with deceit. The pro-life side just seems a bit more blatant about it. But both sides do have those misinformers.)

Edited July 7, 2012 by KageSora

[NobleOwl]

Like I say, lack of knowledge is the best word for it really...lack of knowledge of the facts of abortion, what actually goes on and the reality of the situation is that unbron children are often torn limb from limb then have their heads crushed before being pulled out of the mother's body. This is medical fact. It is what is taught at medical school and yet pro abortionists are like 'oh that's propaganda'. Or abortion clinics will use terms like 'removing the pregnancy'. It's called being 'in denial'.

I'm sorry, but it does not work that way. Let's be real here -- there is no guarantee that early that a fetus can become a child. Nor are those abortion tactics usually used, nor do they cause any pain to the fetus.

 

Speaking as an adult who has been both pro-life and pro-choice, and who has done years of research of her own, on both sides, including working as an other options counselor -- you're not correct.

 

I am not trying to attack you, just making a point.

 

If a fetus at 24 weeks becomes a tumor, is it still wrong to abort? What if it becomes a parasitic mass? What if a twin kills the other in utero? Should the surviving twin be charged with murder? What if it becomes a calcified mass?

 

These are questions too -- because in most of these cases, the fetus is still alive, and still has human cells, but cannot become a baby.

[TikindiDragon]

I am a 36 year old woman, I have a uterus, I know how pregnancy works and I have read just about all there is to read on it. I suggest you start doing some of your own so you don't end up making yourself look so darn silly.

I'm 28, I *do* have a uterus, and because of my trans status I am mortally afriad of pregnancy and have thus done a huge amount of research into it myself. Please do not assume that I am young and uneducated simply because I do not happen to agree with you.

 

This website has a handy slideshow showing fetal development. You will note that at 12 weeks we are only talking 6cms long. Despite not wanting to be crude I will point out that something larger than that was required to help put the baby in there in the first place. At 12 weeks you would *still* not require dismemberment in order to abort the fetus. It would not be that large until gone 20 weeks - which I would like to point out is the legal limit on non-medically nescesary abortions in the UK anyway.

 

I can continue to provide pictorial and medical evidence countering your position if you wish. You may also feel free to post links to research that would counter my points, if you happen to be able to find it.

[Brite]

I am a 36 year old woman, I have a uterus, I know how pregnancy works and I have read just about all there is to read on it. I suggest you start doing some of your own so you don't end up making yourself look so darn silly

 

Do you? Are you aware that a fetus, even as late as having fully developed lungs and a heartbeat can become tumors, calcium masses or parasitic masses?

 

Why exactly ARE you against abortion? Religious reasons? Personal? Or do you think that there really is a baby being killed? Because there's not.

[Princess Artemis]

Or do you think that there really is a baby being killed? Because there's not.

That's a big ol' "Prove it" if there ever was one. Given that's the crux of most of the issue, just stating your opinion like it's a fact won't fly.

 

And before you say, "It can be a tumor or a parasitic mass or a this or a that!" Yes, it can. But an adult can become a tumor too (if they lived long enough through the process). Pretty ugly way to die. An adult can become a petrified fossil under the right circumstances. That doesn't mean they aren't an adult before they died. So saying the results of human procreation can become these things en-route to becoming a neonate is not conclusive proof that they weren't a baby (a child, a human, a life, a ____) the entire time. It could just as likely mean they died very young.

 

So. Prove it.

[Kestra15]

I'd have to ask the same question as prairiecrow, no matter if I'd file or not. Are there not law firms big enough (and smart enough) to write contracts without any loop-holes? It seems as if in this day and age, people do nothing but find loop-holes and sue each other, so there's got to be a way that a contract can be written up...

Therein lies the problem; you can spend as much time and money as you want trying to make that contract ironclad, but it's still just words on paper. And someone with more time, money and brains that the one who wrote can and will find a loophole. Hence why doctors won't consider such things; it'll just get expensive, messy, and not worth it, just to potentially satisfy a stranger.

[Syaoransbear]

I don't understand why women choose to sue their doctor who sterilized them instead of adopting if they changed their mind after the sterilization. Is it really necessary for a kid to shoot out of your vagina for you to love it? Personally I think I'd like a kid even more if it didn't cause me excruciating pain and demolish my lady bits at some point in its life.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Syaoransbear

[NobleOwl]

That's a big ol' "Prove it" if there ever was one. Given that's the crux of most of the issue, just stating your opinion like it's a fact won't fly.

 

And before you say, "It can be a tumor or a parasitic mass or a this or a that!" Yes, it can. But an adult can become a tumor too (if they lived long enough through the process). Pretty ugly way to die. An adult can become a petrified fossil under the right circumstances. That doesn't mean they aren't an adult before they died. So saying the results of human procreation can become these things en-route to becoming a neonate is not conclusive proof that they weren't a baby (a child, a human, a life, a ____) the entire time. It could just as likely mean they died very young.

 

So. Prove it.

But they didn't die in that case. Parasitic masses and tumors are still alive. Some actually still breathe.

 

Is it really necessary for a kid to shoot out of your vagina for you to love it?

 

For some people, it is. Shiny had a case once where someone adopted a baby and ended up giving up rights because she found herself unable to bond with it.