Posted July 1, 2012 ETA2: Fetuses would be equivalent to oak saplings, you realize. You might not feel bad about plucking one out of the ground because it's growing in a bad spot, but you are killing an oak sapling. Or I could be wrong, maybe you, personally, do have an established point in mind when a seedling becomes "alive" and is able to be killed. Perhaps once it has put on its first branch, then it qualifies as alive? Killing is technical. Killing cells. I kill cells all the time just by scratching an itch or cutting my fingernails. My body kills cells all the time Share this post Link to post
Posted July 1, 2012 Killing is technical. Killing cells. I kill cells all the time just by scratching an itch or cutting my fingernails. My body kills cells all the time Basically this. If we can kill cells, and our body kills cells, then why would taking a point of view and saying 'this is no different' be so shot down by the general population? That's what abortion is. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 1, 2012 Killing is technical. Killing cells. I kill cells all the time just by scratching an itch or cutting my fingernails. My body kills cells all the time Yeah, I know. But some very pro-choice people don't like it if one uses the word in reference to abortion. That's from whence come unsustainable ideas like "potential life" and many euphemisms. It's alive. You kill it. If you do not like this cold hard fact, revise your position, don't revise the world to make the fact go away. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 1, 2012 Yeah, I know. But some very pro-choice people don't like it if one uses the word in reference to abortion. That's from whence come unsustainable ideas like "potential life" and many euphemisms. It's alive. You kill it. If you do not like this cold hard fact, revise your position, don't revise the world to make the fact go away. I'm very pro-choice and will use the word "kill". I just know what I'm killing if I ever got one Share this post Link to post
Posted July 1, 2012 Perhaps I should've just stated my point without my allusions. Basically, if the doctor isn't willing to provide the service, they should refer the patient to a doctor who will, and without any qualms. I had more things written, but I was on a tablet and Darrow decided that it'd be a good idea to bat at my fingers, which in turn closed the browser. Either way - I would provide a source, but the everything I'm finding right now are questions on Yahoo! and Ask, and those aren't reputable sources. I have a personal source from my mother, who worked for a urologist and prepped a number of patients for vasectomies each week, and a couple of those patients every few months were under the age of 25, and were getting them without having any cysts, cancer, etc. I'd write more, but I really don't feel like doing so. I've read a few things that've turned my mood rather sour, and I feel as though it'd affect (effect?) my tone right now. It probably would have helped, yeah : ) I've got no issue with that, and I'm sure many doctors do try to help get people what they are looking for, if they know of anyone. Interesting about how often men under 25 get vasectomies. I'll take your anecdote as worth a source. 25 seems just about right, man or woman. Hope you feel better. (Affect was the right one.) Share this post Link to post
Posted July 1, 2012 Yeah, I know. But some very pro-choice people don't like it if one uses the word in reference to abortion. That's from whence come unsustainable ideas like "potential life" and many euphemisms. It's alive. You kill it. If you do not like this cold hard fact, revise your position, don't revise the world to make the fact go away. I agree with you here. I think a fetus is a potential human life, but before it becomes a human it is still alive. Not in the same way as people often think of life, but still technically alive. People don't think it's horrible to kill bacteria, but they're alive, too. Killing in and of itself is not always wrong--it greatly depends on the circumstances. Like, killing a parasite that's eating away at you. Or killing bacteria, or killing plants for food. Most people wouldn't argue that's horrible. Killing animals for food isn't murder (in the general public mind, I understand that some people DO view it as such). IMO, killing a fetus is in the same category as killing a parasite or bacteria. Provided it's before the point when it becomes viable. Once it could survive outside the womb (with or without medical intervention), I feel it's a bit different, but still not something that should be outlawed as there are numerous reasons why a person might choose to do it. Perhaps more restricted, but not outright illegal. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 2, 2012 I know what you're saying, KageSora, and while I don't entirely agree with you, I respect that opinion and understand it. Still, I feel I must say something about this... I think a fetus is a potential human life Human women have human ova. Human men have human sperm. When they get together, the result isn't non-human until proven otherwise. When a human gets cancer cells, the cancer cells are human cancer cells. They are not dolphin cancer cells, nor canine cancer cells. Anyhow, yeah, killing doesn't necessarily mean murder. That's just not what the word means. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 2, 2012 If the abortion was baned worldwide what wuld you go to say to a girl that was RAPED, well i`m sorry lady but you must give birth to a child and be reminded for your whole life that the worst thing posible happned to you to, one monster violated you and now you must bear his child becouse it was a gift of god. It is true that she can later give the child up for adoption, but giveing birth to monsters child is the worst posible thing i can imagine right after rape itself. I know that if that wuld happen to me and i culd not go to abortion i wuld cut up myself and remove the SEED of EVIL, as it is not created out of love but from pure evilness and something like this shuld never be born. Hey! Those of us with children who were products of rape do not appreciate you calling our children "SEED of EVIL" and saying they should never be born. My daughter is brilliant and beautiful and not at all evil -- goodness can come out of an evil action. This is not evil. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 2, 2012 Hey! Those of us with children who were products of rape do not appreciate you calling our children "SEED of EVIL" and saying they should never be born. In addition, I find that when people always pull out the "well, what about rape" card, it's a little...irresponsible. It's an extreme situation. We should use examples that are in the middle, not at the extreme ends. Yes, abortion because of a rape is a valid situation, but not an extremely common one, from what I know. (Also, Noble, your daughter is so adorable. D'awwwwwwww!) Share this post Link to post
Posted July 2, 2012 I know what you're saying, KageSora, and while I don't entirely agree with you, I respect that opinion and understand it. We'll just have to agree to disagree on the point, I doubt either of us will budge on our views. I just more see abortion as stopping something before it has the chance to start rather than ending something that has already begun, I suppose. But, for the record, I don't like abortion. That said, I think it needs to be legal because everybody needs to choose, not be forced into something they don't want. Still, I feel I must say something about this... I think a fetus is a potential human life Human women have human ova. Human men have human sperm. When they get together, the result isn't non-human until proven otherwise. When a human gets cancer cells, the cancer cells are human cancer cells. They are not dolphin cancer cells, nor canine cancer cells. Anyhow, yeah, killing doesn't necessarily mean murder. That's just not what the word means. Sorry, I think I worded it awkwardly. I meant more... Until it's actually born, there's no guarantee that it will come out of the womb a living, viable baby. Any number of things could go wrong, depending on the stage of pregnancy. More like, it's has the potential, if nothing goes significantly wrong and it's carried to term, to become a living human baby capable of surviving outside of the womb*. But, should something significantly go wrong or it is terminated, it won't become a living human baby capable of surviving outside of the womb*. *With or without medical help. Both count, IMO. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 2, 2012 ^Raping is getting a lot more common these days, Sock... I don't know about where you are, but it's getting WAY more common here in Georgia. And not even at night. It's starting to happen before it's even fully dark. I didn't say rape wasn't common. Even conservative estimates are scary. However, getting an abortion due to rape isn't so common, if stats are to be believed. http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html Why women have abortions 1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient). http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/reasonsabortions.html Social Reasons (given as primary reason) - Feels unready for child/responsibility 25% - Feels she can't afford baby 23% - Has all the children she wants/Other family responsibilities 19% - Relationship problem/Single motherhood 8% - Feels she isn't mature enough 7% - Interference with education/career plans 4% - Parents/Partner wants abortion <1% - Other reasons <6.5% TOTAL: 93% (Approx.) "Hard Cases" (given as primary reason) - Mother's Health 4% - Baby may have health problem 3% - Rape or Incest <0.5% TOTAL: 7% (Approx.) Of course, stats can't portray everything accurately, so maybe it is more common than that. However, point stands that it is an extreme example which I believe people really use to make the debate emotional (just like different terminology people use - parasite or baby or murder or whatnot). There are all kinds of reasons to get an abortion. Being raped is not the only valid reason and I dislike when people use the example and it gets implied that it is the only valid reason for an abortion. 3= Share this post Link to post
Posted July 2, 2012 (edited) Hey! Those of us with children who were products of rape do not appreciate you calling our children "SEED of EVIL" and saying they should never be born. I think she means evil beings like that shouldn't be allowed to spread their gene, I don't know, that's how I see it. The child isn't to blame, that's for sure A child cannot control the way they are born Hell if it was that easy... Edited July 2, 2012 by GhostChilli Share this post Link to post
Posted July 2, 2012 Hey! Those of us with children who were products of rape do not appreciate you calling our children "SEED of EVIL" and saying they should never be born. My daughter is brilliant and beautiful and not at all evil -- goodness can come out of an evil action. This is not evil. I was just waiting for you to come and deliver because you could do it better than anyone else here. (Aaaa such a beautiful young lady you have there!) We'll just have to agree to disagree on the point, I doubt either of us will budge on our views. I just more see abortion as stopping something before it has the chance to start rather than ending something that has already begun, I suppose I getcha and respect your views : ) Sorry, I think I worded it awkwardly. I meant more... Until it's actually born, there's no guarantee that it will come out of the womb a living, viable baby. Any number of things could go wrong, depending on the stage of pregnancy. More like, it's has the potential, if nothing goes significantly wrong and it's carried to term, to become a living human baby capable of surviving outside of the womb*. But, should something significantly go wrong or it is terminated, it won't become a living human baby capable of surviving outside of the womb*. *With or without medical help. Both count, IMO. OK, that makes much more sense. Thanks for putting it a bit more clearly. In addition, I find that when people always pull out the "well, what about rape" card, it's a little...irresponsible. It's an extreme situation. We should use examples that are in the middle, not at the extreme ends. Yes, abortion because of a rape is a valid situation, but not an extremely common one, from what I know. I completely agree with this. Arguing the edge cases makes sense at times, but that's what they are--edge cases. "I should be allowed to use abortion as day to day birth control because WHAT ABOUT RAPE" is the way it comes across to me when people head straight for the edge cases. Not that that's really what they're saying, but... Share this post Link to post
Posted July 2, 2012 ETA2: Fetuses would be equivalent to oak saplings, you realize. Not really. Oak saplings are biologically independent of their parent; a fetus must be supported to survive. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 2, 2012 Hey! Those of us with children who were products of rape do not appreciate you calling our children "SEED of EVIL" and saying they should never be born. My daughter is brilliant and beautiful and not at all evil -- goodness can come out of an evil action. This is not evil. I did not ment to offend any one, or say that childern are evil, as they are not to blame here as they did nothing wrong, nor did the victims. But those kind were procreated from an evil act and not from love as it is common. Your baby girl is totaly beoutifull and i bet she will tur into a wonderfull person when she gets older. But not all women can deal with rape the same, and for many of the victims only thinking about it is to much, i knew a girl that has taken her own life becouse it was ilegal to abort where she lived, she cryed daily till the day that she said she will take things in her own hands, and one week later her sister messaged me that she killed herself. Once again i`m sorry if offended you or any one else, and i did not ment to say that children were evil, but my words came out wrong, and again i`m sorry for all i said and for the fact that it came out wrong. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 2, 2012 (edited) Not really. Oak saplings are biologically independent of their parent; a fetus must be supported to survive. Hmm. So a 279 day and 23 hour old fetus must be supported inside a mother to survive? This is why I say an oak seedling (I used the wrong word--saplings are the toddlers of the tree world) is, as far as the acorns = babies analogy goes, the better equivalent. The very first sprouted oak seedling would find it exceedingly difficult to survive without its parent (the acorn is part of its parent!) while a more established one that had used up most of the acorn is pretty well along its way to being a viable, separate individual oak. Kinda like how fetuses are definitely not able to live without further gestation to the point where they could but it would be hard and further on to the point where if you don't let them out, you'll be the worst sort of overprotective, smothering mom : ) Edited July 2, 2012 by Princess Artemis Share this post Link to post
Posted July 4, 2012 Granted, ANY type of contraception is being responsible. Just as having an abortion is being responsible. Sterilizing yourself is one of the extremes of responsibility, though I don't think it should ever be frowned upon There's a lot of people including me wanted to be sterilized but apparently theres an age acceptance. Apparently males can since they're sperm can be stored for up to five years. Do they really think the population will die out? Because I'm pretty sure that's far from happening... Share this post Link to post
Posted July 4, 2012 There's a lot of people including me wanted to be sterilized but apparently theres an age acceptance. Apparently males can since they're sperm can be stored for up to five years. Do they really think the population will die out? Because I'm pretty sure that's far from happening... Pretty sure sterilization restrictions are more based on people changing their minds when they get older and suing rather than population dying out. It sucks, I know - I'd love to get sterilized, but until we better protect doctors... Females is around 35 with two kids before they really consider, I believe. (Not completely sure and it probably varies by doctor.) Share this post Link to post
Posted July 4, 2012 Usually, Sock, doctors will only sterilize women if they're 35 and have 2 kids. I had my own doctor tell me this when I said I never wanted to have children. Ever. However, she never told me that I'd change my mind. I WAS being very adamant about it, though... Do you think SHE'LL change her mind about helping sterilize me if I told her the only way I wanted kids was through adopting them? Share this post Link to post
Posted July 4, 2012 Do you think SHE'LL change her mind about helping sterilize me if I told her the only way I wanted kids was through adopting them? If you're in your late 20's early 30's, possibly. If you're 19, no. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 6, 2012 (edited) This is simply because the thought is still well ingrained into society that, when a woman "settles down" with a man she loves, she is supposed to have his children. I HATE that stereotype. I do. I can't stand it when women are expected to have children... Which is why abortion should always be legal and allowed, because women should not have to carry an unwanted child simply because it's EXPECTED of them... Wrong. It's because it's not worth the legal case you can bring against that doctor in ten years time in case you do change your mind between now and then. Take it from someone who was an arrogant nineteen-year-old who though he knew exactly what he wanted from life, and is now an arrogant twenty-five-year-old who thinks he knows what he wants from life - you have *no idea* about what is ahead. Just because you know at 19yrs that you will never have kids, doesn't mean that you really never want to have kids. Ask anyone over the age of 25yrs whether they're doing what they thought they would do at teenagers, and you'll be surprised how many of us are now doing something different to what we knew at 19yrs was the way our lives would turn out. Edited July 6, 2012 by Kestra15 Share this post Link to post
Posted July 6, 2012 I'm against abortion, always have been, don't believe in it at all but I wouldn't judge anyone for having one as such as in my experience most women who get abortions do so either out of ignorance (well, lack of knowledge would be a better word) or because they guenuinely feel it's the right thing, what I mean is, they don't usually do it out of maliciousness or a lack of empathy for the child. However I do know of many people out there who are simply in denial about the reality of abortion and stick their head in the sand when they know fully well it's wrong. It's people like that I can't forgive. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 6, 2012 I'm against abortion, always have been, don't believe in it at all but I wouldn't judge anyone for having one as such as in my experience most women who get abortions do so either out of ignorance (well, lack of knowledge would be a better word) or because they guenuinely feel it's the right thing, what I mean is, they don't usually do it out of maliciousness or a lack of empathy for the child. However I do know of many people out there who are simply in denial about the reality of abortion and stick their head in the sand when they know fully well it's wrong. It's people like that I can't forgive. What do you mean by 'ignorance?' And what is your perception of the 'reality of abortion' that people supposedly 'stick their head in the sand' over? Share this post Link to post
Posted July 6, 2012 What do you mean by 'ignorance?' And what is your perception of the 'reality of abortion' that people supposedly 'stick their head in the sand' over? Like I say, lack of knowledge is the best word for it really...lack of knowledge of the facts of abortion, what actually goes on and the reality of the situation is that unbron children are often torn limb from limb then have their heads crushed before being pulled out of the mother's body. This is medical fact. It is what is taught at medical school and yet pro abortionists are like 'oh that's propaganda'. Or abortion clinics will use terms like 'removing the pregnancy'. It's called being 'in denial'. Share this post Link to post
Posted July 6, 2012 Like I say, lack of knowledge is the best word for it really...lack of knowledge of the facts of abortion, what actually goes on and the reality of the situation is that unbron children are often torn limb from limb then have their heads crushed before being pulled out of the mother's body. This is medical fact. It is what is taught at medical school and yet pro abortionists are like 'oh that's propaganda'. Or abortion clinics will use terms like 'removing the pregnancy'. It's called being 'in denial'. Uh, that's a late term abortion. Most abortions happen before the fetus even *has* limbs. this image is of an 8-9 week old fetus. Unfortunately there's nothing there to show scale, but let me assure you that it wouldn't require being broken down to be removed. You may wish to do a little more research into the development of a human embryo before you begin claiming 'lack of knowledge'. Share this post Link to post
Recommended Posts