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Are things like the mother's mental well-being, an assurance that the child will be well cared for after they are born, and so on important? Yes.

 

But that still does not ever make it ok to kill a baby.

Really? It's completely alright to absolutely BREAK the mother beyond repair, just so long as that baby doesn't get aborted?

 

 

Emotional well-being is as important as physical and sometimes more so, otherwise why would we have psych wards?

This, so much. I would rather have great emotional/mental heath but poor physical health than have amazing physical health but be mentally/emotionally damaged/broken.

 

Physical health declines very quickly when your emotional health is in ruins. Even discounting the harm you may intentionally inflict on yourself, you feel terrible when you're not emotionally healthy. Sick, tired. Have you ever been at that point where you feel utterly alone, helpless, hopeless, and that there will be no light at the end of your tunnel? That no matter how many people say they care, you cannot trust a single one, you don't remember the last time you were happy and your whole world is reduced to pain and self-loathing and the belief that nothing matters because you are so pathetic, so insignificant that your death would bring relief to those around you? And that was just brought on by stress from school--I can't even imagine how much harder it is for those who would be forced to carry a child against their will.

 

If my school-related depression was a living nightmare for me, I cannot even begin to imagine the hell a mother forced to give birth to a child she never wanted would/does go through.

 

I would have to be a heartless, inhuman monster to think somebody should be forced to go through that hell just for the sake of a potential person (who would have to grow up knowing they were never wanted in the first place, since that would then put that poor innocent baby through hell, too.)

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That sperm picture is rediculous in so many ways since there are people that actually believe that.

 

But that still does not ever make it ok to kill a baby.

 

Abortion=Terminating a pregnancy and the fetus from becoming a potential POTENTIAL child.

 

Where in this do you see an already born child being killed?

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That sperm picture is rediculous in so many ways since there are people that actually believe that.

 

There are people who seriously believe that?!

 

I just found a site that actually espouses beliefs that sperm and egg are alive, and that they must not be wasted.

 

http://www.alysion.org/truelife/drgamete.html

 

So again, when does human life begin? Do you equivocate like some and point to viability, implantation, quickening, or perhaps the initiation of a fetal heartbeat as the beginning of human life? Or perhaps, like Carl Sagan, you think that human life doesn't begin until the fetus develops distinctly human brain waves, since an adult without brain waves is considered by most to be dead? If you're uncomfortable standing on the slippery slope, and are looking for a firm place to stand, the erroneous notion that the 24-hour process of fertilization is the beginning must be abandoned. The view that must now be embraced, in light of scientific knowledge, is that life begins with gametogenesis. Since gametogenesis is the production of sex cells, you could, biologically speaking, say in brief that "life begins with sex."

 

What our supporters do, as a practical matter, is council abstinence and place their pubescent daughters on birth control pills to prevent premature ovulation. This is no different than millions of responsible parents do now days to avoid unwanted pregnancy.

 

Pubescent boys pose a greater challenge, as currently no technology exists to prevent premature spermatogenesis. We support research in male birth control that would inhibit sperm production, but until a male Pill is available, we council abstinence and teach our sons the self-control that will allow them to achieve sexual continence. We acknowledge, however, that loss of sperm will occur through masturbation and nocturnal emission in immature males. We are saddened by this loss, but also have compassion for the sexually challenged adolescent. Moral perfection is not obtainable in the short term, but must be learned. We need to know what is right and wrong, naturally, then strive as best we can to live the true, good, and beautiful life.

Edited by ylangylang

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There are people who seriously believe that?!

 

I just found a site that actually espouses beliefs that sperm and egg are alive, and that they must not be wasted.

 

http://www.alysion.org/truelife/drgamete.html

 

 

 

I'm thinking that's a parody.

 

Really? It's completely alright to absolutely BREAK the mother beyond repair, just so long as that baby doesn't get aborted?

 

Sadly, that isn't an uncommon belief. dry.gif Who cares about the mother, she's just some irresponsible censorkip.gif that got knocked up, and needs to face the consequences. Which is how a woman can be charged with murder because she tried to commit suicide while pregnant.

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mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html

 

Ask and ye shall recieve. <3

I liked the one where the guy told her he wasn't going to help her because she thought he was a murderer.

 

Also, I wonder what those people would do if their desire for abortion to be illegal came true?

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I liked the one where the guy told her he wasn't going to help her because she thought he was a murderer.

 

Also, I wonder what those people would do if their desire for abortion to be illegal came true?

Politically speaking, we've already seen laws like the Blundt amendment and candidates/groups (Santorum/FRC) have spoken out against Birth control. So I think it would be the logical next step. Beyond that, we've seen legislatures remove prenatal funding for illegal immigrants and other services for poor women. But given that the pope spoke against condoms, I doubt it would be limited to women. I suspect it's just easier to get those passed. But the idea of them limiting prenatal screening is scary. Example Article

 

Nebraska Prenatal Debate

 

Relevant point if you don't want to read the article: The legislature passed restoring funding. Governor Vetoed. They'll try to override it this coming week. The big point is:

Supporters of the bill have said the $650,000 cost is less than the $800,000 medical bill for one child - paid by Nebraska taxpayers - whose health problems were caused by the lack of prenatal care for an immigrant mother in one case since 2010.

 

I also think it's a case of, if they manage to make hurdles for one group, that gives them leeway to go after the next one.

 

2011 Relevant bills

Article

Too much to summarize in these two.

 

More recent article

Citation

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I liked the one where the guy told her he wasn't going to help her because she thought he was a murderer.

 

Also, I wonder what those people would do if their desire for abortion to be illegal came true?

They'd probably just go to illegal abortion clinics/doctors. After all, they're already special cases. Why should getting the law changed affect that? (Or, possibly, there would be a sudden and distinct increase in the sales of tansy and pennyroyal tea.)

 

 

I really don't understand it, what about phamtom pregnancies? those who implant in places other than the womb, ones that turn cancerous have major birthdefects, like a lack of functioning nervous system or other disabilitly that would make life frankly short and put guilt upon the mother if she had to deliever it. Would those still be considered babies?

 

Really any wanted pregnnancy, that stats that way after the 12 week mark where most abnormal defeats are either caught, or causes a miscarriage could be argued as a baby because the mother's kept it, and is probably day dreaming about what color to pain the nursery or baby names

On the ones like ectopic pregnancies, probably not, because they never really get a chance to develop far enough. Maybe to the mother (or a rabid pro-lifer)? I doubt anyone could call a cancerous mass a baby, though. Fetuses (fetii?) that have some kind of serious abnormality probably would be considered babies by their parent(s), mostly because if they'd developed that far, they'd very likely be wanted. A fetus without a brain is still a fetus even if it isn't ever going to live in the way a normal one would, so the parents in that case are probably still thinking baby.

 

Exactly. A wanted pregnancy could certainly be argued to be considered a baby even in the first trimester, no matter what science says. That's why it's so difficult for parents who find out after that point (or, at any point, really) that their very much desired fetus is not going to end up living past its birth or infancy, if it is able to survive that long. To them, it is already their much-loved baby.

Edited by LascielsShadow

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I will say this again: at what point going back from the moment of birth does a baby cease to be a baby?

 

Everyone I've seen arguing the pro-choice arguement is trying to justify the death of a baby. That is what you are doing. Are things like the mother's mental well-being, an assurance that the child will be well cared for after they are born, and so on important? Yes.

 

But that still does not ever make it ok to kill a baby.

 

You are trying to justify killing a baby.

 

Killing a baby.

 

Debate all you like, but that will never, ever, EVER be justifiable to me. If we as a human society have come to believe that killing an infant is the best possible option we can present in millions of cases, then something is incredibly wrong.

 

It might be understandable if you considered it an option in a few rare cases. But as justification for the millions of abortions that occur yearly? No, goodness no.

OK. Next unwanted pregnancy I hear of where abortion is on the cards, I'll email you. Kindly come and collect the baby - before 16 weeks, please.

 

You can have it, just so it won't be killed. That'll be OK with you - it's a LIVING BABY, an INFANT - right ? - so it will be OK as I hand it over...

 

I am not trying to justify anything. YOU are trying to guilt people in desperate straits. If anyone needs to justify anything, it is the people who want to force unwanted children to be born into horrible lives in an already overpopulated world...

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in an already overpopulated world...

 

Overpopulation is a joke, and one of the worst excuses for abortion. If that's your reasoning, genocide must be okay too then. The world's "overpopulated," just helping out. No.

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Overpopulation is a joke

i do believe people that consider overpopulation share a special detention of it.

 

Too many people+limited jobs+limited food, water, goods, other resources+limited homes and territory= Overpopulation (Took from page 28. on forum)

part of my quote from that page.

the easiest way to explain it. sometimes overpopulation can be over looked for years though it adds up if people keep pushing out babies like theirs no tomorrow. Overpopulation is a real problem because if your not careful it can kill a society faster than you can blink. 'Great leader' as they call themselves that shoot down abortion are not so Great it leaves the next leader to deal with the problem they sewn. that's America's greatest problem, mess it up today and leave it for the next person to handle. and before you shoot me down i am american. South Carolinian to be more precise.

 

if you ask me America's media encourages people to make offspring by showing shows with babies and not showing the negatives and the costs, they just make raising a baby look easy, not costly, and a OK. babies cost, they get sick, you have to watch everything they do, everything they eat, drink, play with, as well as the risks when they get sick, and you can't always keep them safe when your dirt poor and can't stay home to watch them if your single. note that i'm not trying to be harsh but its true. many females too will go out and have offspring just so they can get financial aid for their homes and go to colleges because their either lazy or they can't get a job because of no job openings.

 

this gives other counties something to sit down after a hard day of work something to laugh at knowing that their lucky to have health benefits, so don't have to worry about ever being homeless because their gov. provides and cares for them even if they have all these laws and have to work their fingers to the bone. i can't see how some of them can believe that america could be a world of opportunity, granted some do after hard work and luck become famous and rich.

 

3. a woman does not have control no matter how you spin it if they have to carry a child they do not want. a baby 'is' an body part till it comes out and/or developed a brain and starts breathing in some cases, depending on beliefs. though even after the cells mutate into another code that makes them the fetus its part of the mother because the mother has to carry it and feed it threw its connecting cord. and because of that the mother should be able to decide if she does not want it, sometimes if the mother does not want it very badly she will starve herself or her hormones will cancel the pregnancy. their are a lot of nasty unsafe ways to get rid of a offspring if abortion becomes illegal like drinking, starvation, drugs, punches to the stomach, sickness, ect.

 

4. yes but that is a risk to take to prevent it from feeling years of pain in a system or knowing that when it get older and it can't get a job it has to leech off of its parent or others in order to survive. that's not fun to feel that, knowing you don't add up to much because all the jobs you try for don't ever happen. feeling helpless as a child is not worth it if it can be ended before it starts with one quick end.

 

5. Handicapped changes nothing other than most can't, when they get older, work or support their selves alone. most creatures kill their handicapped offspring to protect their generations as well as save space for healthy ones that will survive. note though that most handicapped people have a advantage and can work effectively with others to use their gifts. though most just draw checks and contentiosly breed and produce more mentally or physicality damaged children.

 

6. yes it's the parents though the gov. can't just go clip every persons reproductive systems for producing these offspring because they can't tell if it was for fault of the parent or unfortant because the parent just learned they could not care for it.

fault by parents

note though too most children parents were not born in the states and are brought here just to protect the child from death because if any child is born in the state it becomes a citizen auto. nothing agents the children but this helps the over flow of children in the system but you can't just throw the child back to the parent even though there forced back into their country, this is by fault of the parent not child. or those that are in the states that don't believe in birth control that have sex and pushes out kids like no tomorrow. they can't keep all the children and DSS has to throw some of them into the system.

unfortant parents

decide to have a child and have everything planned. they get it on, and nine months it comes, bad day at work or parent dies leaving one parent to hold all costs as well as get a job to support themselves. they can't get a good job and bills go unpayed and their is no food in the house. they either decide to put it up for adoption and/or DSS has to take the child. might be rare though it can't be helped.

 

7. if it was me then i would say pull the darn plug in a matter of speech. i never wanted to be born and i can't even remember as far back as my first days so i now i new nothing then or really did not feel anything. i would respect my mom more if she had gotten the abortion though i would never exist so there would be no meaning to feel hate or love for what happened. having a chance to live is not humane if you can't support yourself, feed yourself, having to watch others suffer to keep you alive, get an second job in a gas station running the risk of getting robbed or becoming dangerously sleep deprived because their the only one with a education degree for the single parent that gets her child away from a man that would hit her, and remembering just enough as that you can't get the image of the man hitting your mom running out of the house and abandoning the two children even after trying to get the court order to get the children back and being turned down because she can stay home and take care of the kid because she has to got to the mills and make a living to support herself and try to support the children when the male neglects to feed them. now does that sound like something you would like to remember? i know its something i tried hard to unremember.

 

so yes i would have been happy for her to abort and if i could i would make it were she never met him. so please don't try and handicapped off the would you rather deny life to save it from mercy, i don't want to sound mean though a lot of people will agree.

8. not poking too much here though sometimes its not the mothers choice to get pregnant. she can use birth control though sometimes the male will tamper with it, i think someone else had pointed it out before on the thread, so that the female will be 'held down' and/or the child will be used to force the mother to stay with a abusive spouse. though sometimes the female can use it to hold down a male but its not as often. ((anyone correct me if i'm wrong))

 

no offence taken sense its your right to have your own thoughts, i'm just stating my opinion on your opinion.

 

sorry i could not see talking about it because it would talked just as long so i just copied about it. and around those pages you should see that those comments were somewhat about over population and things like that.

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I think it's quite an old belief. That picture depicts a homunculus if my memory serves me right. wink.gif And the belief was that the man actually carried the child, deposited it into the woman's womb, and then it grew. I'd find the source for this, but I'm lazy and on mu Zune ATM, so it wouldn't matter if I did find the source. If you search homunculus, there should be a Wiki page in it, though. tongue.gif

But that belief still persisting in this day and age is ridiculous. I actually find that point interesting because-we Asians (or at least in my country) the gender was supposed to be determined by the woman. Goes something like this: the man produces *ahem* "people seeds" (blushes at the crude analogy but let's continue) which can be divided to bad(girl) seeds and good(boy) seeds. The female, after recepting the seeds, depending on how...uh....well, uh.... well, if her "field" was fertile, she'd be able to grow the good(boy) seeds, and if not, a bad(girl) seed will take root. So, if a woman was unable to give birth to boys in our country, the woman was sometimes even kicked out. Nowadays this belief is, of course, largely debunked and I dare say no one believes in it, not to mention that gender discrimination in fetuses are not allowed. I should know. I was one of the last babies born before the ban, and subsequently the end of the trend for favoring boys. (My dad was actually happy that I was a girl, but that's another point)

 

I'm thinking that's a parody.

 

They say that they're deadly serious though. I'm not sure what to believe.

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Overpopulation is a joke, and one of the worst excuses for abortion. If that's your reasoning, genocide must be okay too then. The world's "overpopulated," just helping out. No.

I wasn't using it as an excuse for anything. I don't think the power to choose to have abortion needs an excuse.

 

But overpopulation certainly isn't a joke.

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Overpopulation is a joke, and one of the worst excuses for abortion. If that's your reasoning, genocide must be okay too then. The world's "overpopulated," just helping out. No.

Love the way you ignore the whole "born into being unwanted and thus having horrible lives" bit to jump right on the overpopulation thing.

 

 

I doubt many people get an abortion ONLY for the reason of overpopulation. :|

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But that belief still persisting in this day and age is ridiculous. I actually find that point interesting because-we Asians (or at least in my country) the gender was supposed to be determined by the woman. Goes something like this: the man produces *ahem* "people seeds" (blushes at the crude analogy but let's continue) which can be divided to bad(girl) seeds and good(boy) seeds. The female, after recepting the seeds, depending on how...uh....well, uh.... well, if her "field" was fertile, she'd be able to grow the good(boy) seeds, and if not, a bad(girl) seed will take root. So, if a woman was unable to give birth to boys in our country, the woman was sometimes even kicked out. Nowadays this belief is, of course, largely debunked and I dare say no one believes in it, not to mention that gender discrimination in fetuses are not allowed. I should know. I was one of the last babies born before the ban, and subsequently the end of the trend for favoring boys. (My dad was actually happy that I was a girl, but that's another point)

 

 

 

They say that they're deadly serious though. I'm not sure what to believe.

Definitely not just an asian thing as far as the woman being responsible for the kids gender or health. It depends on the time period as to what people thought was the reason for it to be one or the other. I think one of the more notorious examples was King Henry the VIII. Basically, the idea of men being impotent was out of the question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wives_of_Henry_VIII

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While I plan to never use abortion due to things I have heard/seen about it, I am still Pro choice. Every woman has the right to choose whether they want the baby or not. If the woman didn't want that baby in the first place (perhaps it was an accident), it would be better for the "baby" to be aborted rather than live with a mother that didn't plan it out and wasn't ready for one.

 

Either the baby be aborted or go up for adoption, which is always just as good of a choice as any. My mother was adopted, as well as many of my friends (I can think of at least 3, if I thought about it a little longer, I'd be able to think of more).

 

Also another reason for abortion:

Perhaps the girl was raped. Would you want a child by a man that raped you? Because I surely wouldn't.

 

The reasons I wouldn't choose abortion for myself go along with the following:

- I've seen horrendous pictures of horrible extremes of abortion that just make me squirm wacko.gif

- I personally don't want anything going inside of me and ripping me out (please don't pick at me because I said this. I know this isn't correct, but I'm entitled to my opinions and thoughts)

- I don't plan on getting pregnant until I get married and am financially stable enough to support my child(ren)

- While I know things can happen in the mean time, I still am not intending on using double protection, ie birth control and a condom

- If I had an accident, I still do not plan on using abortion. I would love the child nonetheless and treat it liked it was intended and planned for.

 

 

 

*While I know you may not have the same opinions as I do, please do not try to correct me, because I could quite possibly go berserk on you because this is quite the controversial topic. Thank you very much, I really don't want to offend you*

**I would love to hear if you have the same views at me though!**

Edited by thenameisgrover

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And, philpot123... I'm sure that, if you ask any woman why she's getting an abortion, it wouldn't be because of 'overpopulation.' I don't think fuzz was even suggesting that 'overpopulation' would be a valid excuse for an abortion. I personally interpreted it as, if you allow abortion, then you can help make a dent in overpopulation because not as many babies are being born and exhausting resources.

I think probably I like you - for actually reading my post, if for no other reason biggrin.gif

 

Then again maybe I don't like you at all. Time will tell... xd.png

 

Also thenameisgrover, for sheer common sense.

 

 

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Also thenameisgrover, for sheer common sense.

Aww! Why shank you!

There was more common sense to it.. But I'm not supposed to be on the computer right now and my madre got home xd.png

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And, philpot123... I'm sure that, if you ask any woman why she's getting an abortion, it wouldn't be because of 'overpopulation.' I don't think fuzz was even suggesting that 'overpopulation' would be a valid excuse for an abortion. I personally interpreted it as, if you allow abortion, then you can help make a dent in overpopulation because not as many babies are being born and exhausting resources.

agreed. not many people think of over population when they get an abortion its just a plus to abortion. not many people think of giving to the trees when we breath out so that the trees can turn that back into something breathable just like over population and abortion.

 

god.ofthedead: you'd think that they would figure it out but no, never a males fail, how could a male ever be responsible for infertility or siring daughters? dry.gif

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Overpopulation is a joke

 

Tell that to Japan. And it's not space we're lacking, it the food and things to provide. So it IS a serious matter.

 

Would you want a child by a man that raped you? Because I surely wouldn't.

 

You should hear the censorkip.gifs that say pregnancy from rape is a gift from G-d. A huge "WFT" moment

Edited by GhostChilli

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You should hear the censorkip.gifs that say pregnancy from rape is a gift from G-d. A huge "WFT" moment

I know. It makes me wanna punch one in the nuts.... I don't understand what they're thinking... Pregnancy in general is a gift from the Ol' Man upstairs... But not rape...

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While I plan to never use abortion due to things I have heard/seen about it, I am still Pro choice.

I wish all people who would not personally choose abortion thought like you. It drives me insane when people think, "I am opposed to this because of personal/religious reasons therefore I think it should be banned for everyone even though they don't share my opinion."

 

My 16 year old cousin just got pregnant. She's choosing to have it and keep it. It's the worst decision she could possibly make. I could not think of a worse mother than her, except like a serial killer or child molester. She repeatedly takes off for days and doesn't tell her mom where she is going. She is the most selfish, bratty, irresponsible kid I have ever known in my life. She's already failing high school and the baby isn't even here yet. In all likeliness her mother is going to be the one taking care of it and my cousin is going to continue taking off for days, getting drunk/doing drugs with random men, and skipping school.

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In all likeliness her mother is going to be the one taking care of it and my cousin is going to continue taking off for days, getting drunk/doing drugs with random men, and skipping school.

Well thank you biggrin.gif

I tend to think so that no one gets offended by what I say.

 

As long as she doesn't do that while she's pregnant. Because if a mother does that to their child, it is completely irresponsible and I can't stand people that do that. {Sorry if I offend anyone, but it is completely wrong for people to do that to unknowing living things inside of them.}

My cousin got his girlfriend pregnant, and they kept it. God bless that child, Brayden is so adorable. But he was 6 pounds and something, a very low weight, which could've been a very bad thing. I don't know if she did anything bad while he was in her.

Even though we don't think she's the best for my cousin, they're still doing the right thing for Brayden (they moved in with each other and are getting married this summer).

 

Also another thing I forgot in my opinion post:

People that say abortion "kills" the baby;

The baby isn't living yet. It isn't even completely formed already, ie it doesn't have a brain, can't move at all, doesn't have clear physical appendages... etc etc.

So you can't say that it "kills" the baby, because the baby doesn't even know it's alive because it doesn't have a brain and can't comprehend anything.

 

 

P.S. But I think you may have a biased opinion against extreme republicans (because they generally are the ones who are against abortion). But then again, I also have a thing against extreme republicans, but that's because I'm a democrat and.. it's a whole 'nother story... Hahaha

Edited by thenameisgrover

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