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I wanted to get away from the politicized views on abortion, and so I went and read a lot of first-hand experience accounts, in the "I had an abortion" group of ExperienceProject.com. It's a website basically dedicated to letting everyone and anyone post their personal experiences for -- sharing, posterity, catharsis, pride, whatever. I read dozens of firsthand accounts. Those women came from all different positions in life, all different belief systems, with different views on their abortion experiences, and it gave me a much clearer picture than I had before of who is having abortions and why, and what sort of situations could arise if abortion were banned.

Thanks for that. Very interesting site.

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Closed and I am a winner.

huh.gif I didn't realize that was for you to decide. And I'm still not convinced. Just because we could die and become a corpse at any second does not mean that we are not human.

 

And thanks for reminding me about the ways lesbians could have children. I was not thinking about that when I made that post.

Edited by Zephyrgirl

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huh.gif I didn't realize that was for you to decide. And I'm still not convinced. Just because we could die and become a corpse at any second does not mean that we are not human.

 

And thanks for reminding me about the ways lesbians could have children. I was not thinking about that when I made that post.

 

You're not getting it. I didn't mean dieing and becoming a corpse. I mean the fact that a fetus can become tumors, parasites, calcium masses, reabsorbed by the body, and some people STILL automatically label them as a legit person. I don't see any people walking around that have these possibilities. Not to mention a fetilized egg can consume another fertilized egg. If you think abortion is murder, apparently the kid needs to be trialed when born.

Edited by GhostChilli

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Just because we could die and become a corpse at any second does not mean that we are not human.

Not the same thing.

 

There's a difference between ceasing to be a person (dying and becoming a corpse), and never becoming a person (a fetus that doesn't make it to live birth). For anybody who doesn't believe that life begins at conception, then a fetus is a potential person, not an actual person, and therefore simply never becomes a person if aborted (or any of the number of other fates that would prevent it from being born a living baby happen to befall it).

Edited by KageSora

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What is so different between a baby that is in the end of the first trimester and one that is in the first day of the second?

 

To me, abortion is murder. There is no question in my mind of it. The only places where I can even see abortion as being a slightly feasible option is in cases where the baby is either going to be born with significant crippling health issues, born of incest, or born of rape.

 

And even then I would argue against it: I have had relatives who are severely disabled and they enjoy their lives. If a person's life is going to be so wretched that death is better, than only that person alone can make that call. Let them be born, and then if they decide that life isn't worth living, they themselves can decide to end it.

 

The same applies to incest. While it is a disturbing thing, most babies born of it won't actually have health issues. They may have mental struggles related to the cause of their birth, but again, only they can decide if their life is still worth living or not. Such a truly life-or-death chocie should not be made when they can not speak at all in their own defense.

 

And then, of course, there is rape. Surely the worst of all of the three cases I've mentioned... primarily for the mother. The child is not at all at fault for what one sick person did to their mother. Why should a healthy child die because of their father's crime?

Will it be emotionally charging for the mother to carry through a pregnancy conceived with rape? Certainly. But the point is that you are still ending an innocent life just to spare the mother further emotional pain. Emotional pain does not justify the ending of innocent life. I will have all the pity in the world for the mother and they should be given all possible support, but they should not suddenly gain the right to kill an innocent infant.

 

The other primary arguement I have heard in the case of abortion is that it is the mother's right to control her body. However, I argue that in all cases but rape, which I have already discussed, this is not the case. She does have control over her body--but by choosing to abstain from or indulge in sex, rather than by choosing whether or not to end her infant's life.

 

Biologically speaking, sex exists to create children. While sex certainly doesn't have to result in children (and can most definitely be enjoyed for reasons other than that purpose!), at the end of the day that is its one true intended purpose. By having sex, you are taking a chance that a pregnancy will occur. I have no problem at all with people using birth control as an attempt to prevent pregnancy. However, I also believe that people must take responsibility if a pregnancy occurs despite their precautions. There are ways to surgically halt your ability to have children, if you wish to freely enjoy sex without worrying about pregnancy... and if you simply don't want to be pregnant now but want to keep the option open for later, then you're simply going to have to accept the chance that you might get pregnant even while using birth control and be prepared to commit yourself to raising an unexpected child.

 

But while I can argue the finer details of abortion, my beliefs on it still arise primarily from what I said at the beginning at this post. A baby does not suddenly cease to be a baby simply because it's a few days farther away from birth than another baby. Abortion ends the life of a baby, and that is the cruelest form of murder.

1. much is different sense from trim. 1 it keeps developing into those bundles from Hell to most people that have a phobia of birthing. your more than likely looking at the mental diff. though not the physical or chemical from your comment, you seem to be sliding to a mental leverage in the debate.

 

2. being born unwanted or unneeded could be the worst thing in the world if your considering mental worse than physical, sense you said ask the kids if they want to be killed. that in itself is a good reason to have a abortion because adoption systems, where those unwanted children go, are no longer the better choice by many years.

 

3. your relatives are not a lot of people, yes they might enjoy their lives but a lot don't and that's only half the reason for abortions. being unwanted and knowing you were not wanted, probably even making your mother loath you, is far worse. some people will not come out and say anythings wrong but go kill themselves because they can't handle knowing that their unwanted, their causing horrible problems that there family is barely getting by, and want to make amends for those problems hoping to let the mother limp back from their downfall after the birth.

-you would want a child to live and suffer then chose to kill themselves when they can't cope with the facts? you think that a child should ever be in a situation that they would consider killing themselves? you know most religions, even atheists, frown on having to put someone in that type of subject that they would consider killing themselves. the mercy of a early abortion is that the infant does not know what life is and the pains involved with it, the question is 'how can you hate what you have been deprived of if you never knew about it in the first place?'. abortion is mercy for the fetus as well as the mother, so that murder is a mercy kill.

-just answer yourself these questions to yourself, you don't have to place it up here if you don't want to,

--Question 1= If you were that fetus and there was at lest 9 out of 10 chance that you would end up unsuccessful in a system sense your mother decided to keep you alive Would you respect her if you went threw a system that have you pending for years. including mental problems on knowing your unwanted http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_for_families/foster_care problems included in bullet form.

About 30% of children in foster care have severe emotional, behavioral, or developmental problems. Physical health problems are also common. Most children, however, show remarkable resiliency and determination to go on with their lives. Children in foster care often struggle with the following issues:

 

blaming themselves and feeling guilty about removal from their birth parents

wishing to return to birth parents even if they were abused by them

feeling unwanted if awaiting adoption for a long time

feeling helpless about multiple changes in foster parents over time

having mixed emotions about attaching to foster parents

feeling insecure and uncertain about their future

reluctantly acknowledging positive feelings for foster parents

--Question 2=If you were subjected to the suffering of the system, and you were one of those that consider killing themselves, and someone came up and told you of abortion could have been a option for your mother and that they supported you getting the chance to life Would you hate that person or hate your mom because they did not want to show you mercy of missary aborting you instead of fallowing their heart because they thought quick death would be more cruel"

 

4. incest in any species is a problem over generations and gets worse moving deeper along. when two unrelated, or very much distant relatives, they provide new genes codes to make up for the 30% mutation, lose of code. when two related, children of the same parents, your not getting new traits or new genes in its the same ones over and over and they lose more and more as they go down because of this mutation loss. [Correct me if i'm wrong its been a long while sense it read that artical.]

 

5. not going to comment everyone else has beaten me to the punch.

 

6. you tell someone they have to carry to term against their will they have no rights. simple. you can't say the 3 + 3 does not equal six. you take their rights and give it to the child no questions asked. its not always the mothers fault.

 

7. i see sex as a means for children and never had the desires for it myself though it is not only for reproduction for a lot of people. sex helps bond couples, see examples for before post by others.

 

8. abortion ends the existence of a fetus. a child does not stop being a child when it is a child and not a fetus. a fetus is always changing building up to becoming a child. early fetus can't feel pain because they have not developed enough, they could be soul less for all we know. religious can't back it and science can't either. killing a child is a horrible thing but its not the cruelest thing in the world defiantly sense its a fetus we are talking about and not a full developed organism. i find it crueler to make a child grow up deprived of the most basic of things than to kill one that is oblivious to everything outside of the womb.

 

non of this is meant as insult.

 

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You're not getting it. I didn't mean dieing and becoming a corpse. I mean the fact that a fetus can become tumors, parasites, calcium masses, reabsorbed by the body, and some people STILL automatically label them as a legit person. I don't see any people walking around that have these possibilities. Not to mention a fetilized egg can consume another fertilized egg. If you think abortion is murder, apparently the kid needs to be trialed when born.

I understand perfectly what you are saying. However, just because a fetus could change from one thing to another does not mean that it isn't a person in my book. First of all, there is no real way to prove that it is a person or isn't. I don't think there is much difference in a person dying and a fetus turning into a tumor. After all, our bodies will all turn to dirt one day.

As to a fetus being reabsorbed back into the mother's body, I do not consider that to be murder, at least, not intentional murder. In that case she wouldn't have been able to have helped the death of the fetus so it is not intentional like abortion is.

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I understand perfectly what you are saying. However, just because a fetus could change from one thing to another does not mean that it isn't a person in my book. First of all, there is no real way to prove that it is a person or isn't. I don't think there is much difference in a person dying and a fetus turning into a tumor. After all, our bodies will all turn to dirt one day.

As to a fetus being reabsorbed back into the mother's body, I do not consider that to be murder, at least, not intentional murder. In that case she wouldn't have been able to have helped the death of the fetus so it is not intentional like abortion is.

Intentional? And you still label her as a murderer whether she meant to or not? If we all turn to dirt, why do some people act like the earth has stopped turning if someone aborts? After all, everyone will apparently have similar fate

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I don't really care if it's murder, no human has the right to use any other human's body against their will to save their own life. You can't even use a human corpse unless they gave consent while they were living.

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Intentional? And you still label her as a murderer whether she meant to or not? If we all turn to dirt, why do some people act like the earth has stopped turning if someone aborts? After all, everyone will apparently have similar fate

No, I am not labeling her as a murderer, since the fetus would have died from natural causes. I apologize, I should have been more clear on that.

If we all turn to dirt, why do some people act like the earth has stopped turning if someone is murdered? After all, everyone will apparently have similar fate?

So, Syaoransbear, you are saying that you're comfort and emotions are more important than someone else's life? If the fetus is actually threatening to take away your own life, as in actually killing you, than I could see ignoring the fact that it is murder. Aside from that, the fetus can't help that it must use some other body to live. In fact, it is pretty much given an open invitation in the first place.

Edited by Zephyrgirl

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So, Syaoransbear, you are saying that you're comfort and emotions are more important than someone else's life?

 

....

 

In fact, it is pretty much given an open invitation in the first place.

So, you're saying that a potential (but not guaranteed) life is more important than the emotional and mental well-being of a person who is currently living and contributing to society? Nice. :| (What if it's not physically killing the mother, but is driving the mother into depression and she is at risk for harming herself or killing herself? Since she'd be the one killing herself and not the fetus, would that be considered a murder-suicide if she ended her own life?)

 

 

Also, no. It is not. What if the parents are using birth control and it fails? That's them doing their damnedest to keep an unwanted pregnancy from happening and it happening anyway. That's hardly an "open invitation". Same thing for rape--that's hardly an open invitation from the mother to have that thing leech off her body for 9 months. :|

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So, Syaoransbear, you are saying that you're comfort and emotions are more important than someone else's life? If the fetus is actually threatening to take away your own life, as in actually killing you, than I could see ignoring the fact that it is murder. Aside from that, the fetus can't help that it must use some other body to live. In fact, it is pretty much given an open invitation in the first place.

They sure are! Especially if that someone has no friends, family, memories, life experiences, consciousness, etc. Would you donate an organ to a perfect stranger that would die without it? I doubt it, and they actually have people who care about them. And the government shouldn't force you to either.

 

It's fine for the fetus to use someone's body if the person actually wants it and consents to that. That isn't taking away any rights.

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So, Syaoransbear, you are saying that you're comfort and emotions are more important than someone else's life? If the fetus is actually threatening to take away your own life, as in actually killing you, than I could see ignoring the fact that it is murder. Aside from that, the fetus can't help that it must use some other body to live. In fact, it is pretty much given an open invitation in the first place.

Chiming in here: If that "someone else" is using someone's body against their will/wishes? Hell yes. A living, breathing, born woman's emotions and comfort are most certainly more important. A living, breathing pregnant person is actually contributing to society. A fetus only has the potential to, if they do not become something other than a living person. The physical, emotional and mental well-being of an actual, living, born person will always take precedence over the life of a potential/unborn person. Women are not incubators with legs. They are people, and their emotions and thoughts have value, which is utterly dismissed by this weird canonisation of fetuses which reduces women to walking vessels.

 

Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy, and there is most certainly no consent involved in pregnancy by rape, either, unless you think possessing a uterus is, in itself, "an open invitation" to unwanted pregnancy.

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So, you're saying that a potential (but not guaranteed) life is more important than the emotional and mental well-being of a person who is currently living and contributing to society? Nice. :| (What if it's not physically killing the mother, but is driving the mother into depression and she is at risk for harming herself or killing herself? Since she'd be the one killing herself and not the fetus, would that be considered a murder-suicide if she ended her own life?)

 

 

Also, no. It is not. What if the parents are using birth control and it fails? That's them doing their damnedest to keep an unwanted pregnancy from happening and it happening anyway. That's hardly an "open invitation". Same thing for rape--that's hardly an open invitation from the mother to have that thing leech off her body for 9 months. :|

It sounds harsh, but, yes, I do put someone's life before emotions and mental well-being. It is possible to get counseling and help if you are going through depression. If you use birth control properly and take every precaution you can, then the chances of it failing are very slim. I realize that rape is also a problem, but this site (http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html) shows that only 1% of all abortions are due to rape.

Syaoransbear, I might not be able to donate an organ because I wouldn't be able to live without it, but I would give up 9 months of comfort, both physical and emotional, to save a life.

LascielsShadow, I believe that a woman's emotions are important, too. I'm not dismissing them. I believe people ought to support her and help her, I'm not against that. I am only against putting feelings and comfort above life. There are those who are not contributing to society, those that are mentally retarted, for example, or paralyzed. People have to care for them each and every day, should we kill them because those that take care of them have to go through emotional and physical discomfort?

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It sounds harsh, but, yes, I do put someone's life before emotions and mental well-being. It is possible to get counseling and help if you are going through depression. If you use birth control properly and take every precaution you can, then the chances of it failing are very slim. I realize that rape is also a problem, but this site (http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html) shows that only 1% of all abortions are due to rape.

Syaoransbear, I might not be able to donate an organ because I wouldn't be able to live without it, but I would give up 9 months of comfort, both physical and emotional, to save a life.

LascielsShadow, I believe that a woman's emotions are important, too. I'm not dismissing them. I believe people ought to support her and help her, I'm not against that. I am only against putting feelings and comfort above life. There are those who are not contributing to society, those that are mentally retarted, for example, or paralyzed. People have to care for them each and every day, should we kill them because those that take care of them have to go through emotional and physical discomfort?

Are you aware that counseling is not in any way guaranteed to prevent somebody from taking their own life or harming themselves?

 

I have been seeing a therapist for quite a number of years now, and have been on and off medication as well. However, I still ended up harming myself several times, and have more than ones seriously considered suicide and was only convinced not to because I had a few people who needed me. If I hadn't had those people who required my help to make it through their own personal hells, I would almost certainly have taken my own life--despite medication and counseling.

 

So no, seeing a therapist for depression isn't some magically cure-all to make that pregnancy suddenly bearable.

 

 

Also aware that birth control fail rates are low--but they DO happen. If abortion were illegal then those people who did take steps to prevent it would be censorkip.gif ed.

 

Also, that's not a guaranteed accurate statistic on rape. Did you know that not everybody who is raped will report having been raped? That's only for the REPORTED cases--there may very well be people who had abortions due to rape but were unable to come forwards and say that it was because of the rape. Again, even if the number is small, those people would be censorkip.gif ed if it were made illegal.

 

(So, just because you don't like abortion doesn't mean that everybody should be forced to live by YOUR values. Suppose it was flipped--would YOU want to be forced to abort a baby you really wanted because of somebody else's values?)

 

 

 

And, actually, depending on the organ you COULD live. You only need one kidney, for example. But most people are not willing to give up part of their body--even if they don't require it to live--for a total stranger.

 

 

And would you still believe that it's better to give up some of your comfort for a life to be "saved" if that life is just going to be hell? There are most definitely people out there--people on this very forum who have posted in this topic on the matter--who, if they could, would go back in time and advise their mothers to abort them because they've suffered that much.

 

Also, there's a difference between a person who has a mental or physical defect once they're born and a potential life which has no lived yet. Additionally, those people who care for them are generally those who have opted to care for them--unlike a mother who is carrying a child that she in no way wants at all. And if they don't want to care for them, then they shouldn't be forced to--though I realize that due to various situations it's not always possible to put them in the care of others who do want to care for them, which is sad IMO.

Edited by KageSora

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It sounds harsh, but, yes, I do put someone's life before emotions and mental well-being. It is possible to get counseling and help if you are going through depression. If you use birth control properly and take every precaution you can, then the chances of it failing are very slim. I realize that rape is also a problem, but this site (http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html) shows that only 1% of all abortions are due to rape.

Syaoransbear, I might not be able to donate an organ because I wouldn't be able to live without it, but I would give up 9 months of comfort, both physical and emotional, to save a life.

LascielsShadow, I believe that a woman's emotions are important, too. I'm not dismissing them. I believe people ought to support her and help her, I'm not against that. I am only against putting feelings and comfort above life. There are those who are not contributing to society, those that are mentally retarted, for example, or paralyzed. People have to care for them each and every day, should we kill them because those that take care of them have to go through emotional and physical discomfort?

You wake up in the morning and find yourself back to back in bed with an unconscious violinist. A famous unconscious violinist. He has been found to have a fatal kidney ailment, and the Society of Music Lovers has canvassed all the available medical records and found that you alone have the right blood type to help. They have therefore kidnapped you, and last night the violinist's circulatory system was plugged into yours, so that your kidneys can be used to extract poisons from his blood as well as your own. [if he is unplugged from you now, he will die; but] in nine months he will have recovered from his ailment, and can safely be unplugged from you.

 

So, this would be fine with you?

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LascielsShadow, I believe that a woman's emotions are important, too. I'm not dismissing them. I believe people ought to support her and help her, I'm not against that. I am only against putting feelings and comfort above life. There are those who are not contributing to society, those that are mentally retarted, for example, or paralyzed. People have to care for them each and every day, should we kill them because those that take care of them have to go through emotional and physical discomfort?

Yes, you are. You're handwaving the potential serious emotional, mental and physical damage being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy can have on a woman with "Oh, well, there's always therapy for that". You are saying that a woman's feelings and bodily autonomy are not as important as the life of another person, whom they DID NOT ask or consent to use their body and whom they DO NOT want inside their body. Why do you feel that the long-term repercussions of a forced birth upon the mother are not as important as ensuring that a fetus is allowed to be born? NO other person in the world would be allowed to force someone to allow them to use their body for any reason. You cannot be forced to give up an organ because "Oh, well, there's always counseling" for the emotional and/or physical repercussions of having your body violated that way, and because the life of the person who would be saved by that organ is more important than your feelings on the matter. Why should a fetus, if it is indeed a person, be afforded that right?

 

Oh, and here we go again with the "should we kill mentally/physically disabled people, too" thing. People with physical and mental disabilities are alive. They are born people with all the rights of any other born person. The difference there is that they are not leeching off of someone else's body to sustain their own lives, and that the people caring for them usually CHOOSE TO. I'm kind of offended that you're comparing being a caretaker of a disabled person to being a pregnant woman, BTW. Last time I checked, a caretaker, though they may indeed have tremendous mental and physical issues associated with caring for a disabled person didn't have their patient attached by an umbilical cord, and caring for a paraplegic didn't pose the risk of an amniotic fluid embolism or preeclampsia. Disabled people can and do contribute to society in multiple ways, and by virtue of being actual, living, born people, are also far, far more important than any fetus ever.

Edited by LascielsShadow

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Yes, you are. You're handwaving the potential serious emotional, mental and physical damage being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy can have on a woman with "Oh, well, there's always therapy for that". You are saying that a woman's feelings and bodily autonomy are not as important as the life of another person, whom they DID NOT ask or consent to use their body and whom they DO NOT want inside their body. Why do you feel that the long-term repercussions of a forced birth upon the mother are not as important as ensuring that a fetus is allowed to be born? NO other person in the world would be allowed to force someone to allow them to use their body for any reason. You cannot be forced to give up an organ because "Oh, well, there's always counseling" for the emotional and/or physical repercussions of having your body violated that way, and because the life of the person who would be saved by that organ is more important than your feelings on the matter. Why should a fetus, if it is indeed a person, be afforded that right?

THIS.

 

Why should we give a fetus more rights than the people who are currently alive and contributing to society?

 

Or do you advocate allowing somebody else to forcibly take an organ/blood/plasma/tissue/whatever donation from you, no matter how opposed you are to it, because you could get therapy?

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It sounds harsh, but, yes, I do put someone's life before emotions and mental well-being. It is possible to get counseling and help if you are going through depression. If you use birth control properly and take every precaution you can, then the chances of it failing are very slim. I realize that rape is also a problem, but this site (http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html) shows that only 1% of all abortions are due to rape.

Syaoransbear, I might not be able to donate an organ because I wouldn't be able to live without it, but I would give up 9 months of comfort, both physical and emotional, to save a life.

LascielsShadow, I believe that a woman's emotions are important, too. I'm not dismissing them. I believe people ought to support her and help her, I'm not against that. I am only against putting feelings and comfort above life. There are those who are not contributing to society, those that are mentally retarted, for example, or paralyzed. People have to care for them each and every day, should we kill them because those that take care of them have to go through emotional and physical discomfort?

Just being alive isn't enough. I think you are still dismissing not only the feelings of the mother who will be forever physically and mentally changed after the pregnancy, but the feelings of the child who will be born into a world that didn't want them and can't afford to care for them. If the parents don't want it, off it goes to the orphanage where the chance of it getting adopted are abysmal and the life it will live until it's old enough to leave will likely be full of abuse, loneliness, and thoughts of suicide.

 

If the mother doesn't want to give birth I think both parties, the mother and the child, are emotionally better off with abortion. This is totally ignoring the fact that no living person is able to commandeer another's body the way some governments and groups want a fetus to be allowed to.

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It sounds harsh, but, yes, I do put someone's life before emotions and mental well-being. It is possible to get counseling and help if you are going through depression.

 

Oh sure, it's possible to get counseling. It's possible that counseling may help. But guess what? Counseling costs money (which not everybody has), and isn't 100% guaranteed to work. Emotional scars don't just disappear with some therapy sessions and a bottle of pills. They really, really don't. Trust me.

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Counseling costs money (which not everybody has)

This is a very good point.

 

What if the mother wants to abort because she can't afford to take care of the child? She most certainly won't be able to then magically afford both caring for the (possibly highly unwanted) child and then her counseling (for both the unwanted pregnancy and potentially for also now having to raise a child she never wanted and would prefer dead if she could have had that abortion).

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And one more thing about fetuses that has mean mentioned often enough in this thread but strangely not in this part of the discussion.

 

A fetus - even a fertilized egg - is certainly alive, it is by no means similar to a stone or something like that - but there are many things that are alive, bacteria, for example, or other single-cell organisms.

 

But, despite being alive, it is not an individual. If you take it out of the womb, it will die. End of the story.

I think the youngest baby that survived was 22 weeks old when it was born. Before that they will inevitably die, and even at that time a whole lot of luck is needed for it to survive.

 

A living thing that cannot survive as an individual is not a person.

 

(The question of siamese twins taken aside. Siamese twins do not necessarily depend on the other to survive, it's just that they usually bleed to death if surgically separated. There are those that do share some important organs, but they are equally dependent on each other, you can't make out to whom the organs in question actually belong. There are siamese twins where only one is dependent on the other, and those are rightfully calles parasitic twins. That parasitic twin is NOT considered a person.)

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I assume that it isn't OK to kill cancer cells ? They are alive too, in exactly the same way as a foetus. And they grow inside you, and leech your nutrients - they are parasites, just like a foetus is. And what about a molar pregnancy. Is it not OK to terminate that, just because it started out as a pregnancy ?

 

What about anencephalic foetuses ? Does a woman have to carry to term and watch the thing die ? Which can take a while., but which WILL happen.

 

The National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS) describes the presentation of this condition as follows: "A baby born with anencephaly is usually blind, deaf, unconscious, and unable to feel pain. Although some individuals with anencephaly may be born with a main brain stem, the lack of a functioning cerebrum permanently rules out the possibility of ever gaining consciousness. Reflex actions such as breathing and responses to sound or touch occur."

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Yeah Zephyrgirl I think the issue here is that you have been largely disregarding people who are already living, who already feel and suffer as compared to a thing that has never suffered. You see a thing that has not lived as equal to a person who lives and and suffers and cries, not just equal, but actually superior to. You are saying a fetus has more rights than any person on the planet, for they have a right to a person's body. That is the problem, that is what I argue against, and that is why I must disagree with you.

 

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Look, I realize that there can be mental pain associated with unwanted pregnancy and I do think that something should be done about it. I just don't agree that killing is the answer.

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You don't have to kill the body to kill a person. If you put a woman through something emotionally devastating and thus render the would-be mother a mental wreck, you essentially have killed her as a person. Those wounds inflicted on the mind might never permit her living a human's life again, if she'll even live to the end of the pregnancy without slashing her throat or hanging herself. And after giving birth? See post-partum depression. See post-natal psychosis.

 

And the would-be child? Let's assume it does not miscarry. If it does not suffer from its mother eating random medicine, drinking herself onto the verge of passing out, throwing herself down the stairs, all in an attempt to rid herself of the thing inside her, if it does misdevelop from simply the stress-hormones in the mother's body, then it will be birthed to become unwanted. It is more than probable that it will suffer through enough abuse to never become a functional member of society. Likely, it would have killed itself before reaching adulthood.

Edited by Shienvien

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