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6 hours ago, Laryal said:

Thanks an sorry for  what went on an asking you this is it the babies fault of the rape? An there is ways to save both with what the doctors knows these days but i understand an will have to look further into it ok.:)

 

5 hours ago, Astreya said:

@Laryal

Maybe you could see it from the perspective of the baby, too. Imagine you are told you are the result of a rape. Maybe the mother will mistreat the child because she can't stand hir presence. Or even subtle psychological abuse could make that child's life hell.

How would you feel if your mother told you that you were the result of  rape?

 

As one who has a daughter who was told by some charming school mates who did the math that she was an accident (she was, in a way; she was totally unplanned) - and who has never got over it - she "knows" she was unwanted, no matter what I tell her - these things are not as easy as people think. Not everyone can get past this stuff. And she was wanted, just unplanned. IF she had been the result of a rape - I dread to think how she would have felt.

 

5 hours ago, Laryal said:

i really know how that feels having others  ridicule had that happen to me cause of my cerebral palsy i know it is different but hurts the same an if i can get thru it so can others. life is no bed or roses if it is there are still thorns. I can put myself  in their shoes so to speak really. i just can not put it in words have to really log out now sorry getting to tired to think.

 

Not everyone can get past stuff like this. It's nice if you are that strong. I know I'm not, and I also know that my daughter still hasn't got past that. And she's now in her fifties, and no-one has ridiculed her for it since grade school.

 

2 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

See, that's where your argument breaks down. You seem to think that because you have certain experiences, everyone else has the same. Everyone else thinks the same. Everyone else can handle the same. That's a basic flaw of assumption, and it makes it very hard to look at this issue in an unbiased way. If you believe that everyone experiences things the same, then of course you wouldn't understand why abortion is so needed for some people. But frankly it's rather insulting to view people that way, to assume that because you can do something obviously everyone else can as well. 

 

I have two mental disorders that affect my life in severe ways and have led to 12 suicide attempts in my life (so far). I have had multiple complete breakdowns that required hospitalization and 24/7 observation. I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I am not and will probably *never* be mentally stable enough to carry a fetus for 9 months. I can tell you exactly what would end up happening, and it includes a complete breakdown, multiple suicide attempts, and most likely my mother losing her daughter because I'd end my own life because I literally wouldn't be *able* to live that way. It's wonderful that you've been able to deal with hardships in your life, I'm glad for you. Not everyone has your experiences or that ability. Sometimes abortions *are* needed, for the health of the woman carrying it. I will *not* allow some stranger (doctor, politician, etc) to tell me that I *have* to put my mental health and my *life* at risk because of a parasite growing inside me. (Also, just to be clear, the *only* way I would ever get pregnant is through rape, so there is no being irresponsible or careless or anything like that at play here.)

 

This. I wouldn't be here posting this if I hadn't had an abortion at 19. It has to be the choice of the woman, who understands her own situation better than anyone else.

 

And surely even you would allow abortions in the cases cited in that National Post article ?

 

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/incompatible-with-life-one-mothers-account-of-her-difficult-decision-to-request-a-rare-late-term-abortion

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Oh, by the way, and you still haven't answered my question. How would you feel if your mother told you "You know,
i didn't actually want you because some debased criminal raped me and then I was forced to bring the pregnancy to term. Actually I can't even stand to look at you because you are the constant reminder of the violent rape I had to suffer."

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ok what about this say the victim does abort the baby  she still  fearful of what happened to her she has anouther baby she wants  she could have a set back an abuse that child even though she or he was wanted. Make some sense here in other words you guys want the  excuse  of abortion to be the only way out to me that s what you guys are saying really. everyone can get over tramitic things in their lives no matter what it is. so if what you guys say is true then everyone who has a dad way in life can not get over it.here is an example a driver who was almost killed by a drunk should that driver ever drive any more? See what i mean? I am done here you guys sorry carry on . In other words this is my last post so talk to others not me  kk.

Edited by Laryal

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Astreya, quite honestly, any mother who said that to her child would be an unfit mother. I don't think it's a valid argument. If she'd been forced to carry to term, she could have put the child up for adoption rather than subject it to that.

 

I may be pro-choice - I am, RABIDLY - but that doesn't  mean I would support what would in effect be child abuse. As an argument for choice, that's much like Laryal bringing in genocide as an argument for disallowing choice..

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3 minutes ago, Laryal said:

ok what about this say the victim does abort the baby  she still  fearful of what happened to her she has anouther baby she wants  she could have a set back an abuse that child even though she or he was wanted. Make some sense here in other words you guys want the  excuse  of abortion to be the only way out to me that s what you guys are saying really. everyone can get over tramitic things in their lives no matter what it is. so if what you guys say is true then everyone who has a dad way in life can not get over it.here is an example a driver who was almost killed by a drunk should that driver ever drive any more? See what i mean? I am done here you guys sorry carry on . In other words this is my last post so talk to others not me  kk.

 

Laryal - that is simply not true - as ANY psychologist can tell you. The fact that many of us cannot get through these things is one of the factors in the increasing rate of suicides.

 

And actually - I would favour lifetime bans for drunk drivers who kill, yes. And VERY long bans for all drunk drivers.

Edited by Fuzzbucket

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7 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

See, that's where your argument breaks down. You seem to think that because you have certain experiences, everyone else has the same. Everyone else thinks the same. Everyone else can handle the same. That's a basic flaw of assumption, and it makes it very hard to look at this issue in an unbiased way. If you believe that everyone experiences things the same, then of course you wouldn't understand why abortion is so needed for some people. But frankly it's rather insulting to view people that way, to assume that because you can do something obviously everyone else can as well. 

 

I have two mental disorders that affect my life in severe ways and have led to 12 suicide attempts in my life (so far). I have had multiple complete breakdowns that required hospitalization and 24/7 observation. I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I am not and will probably *never* be mentally stable enough to carry a fetus for 9 months. I can tell you exactly what would end up happening, and it includes a complete breakdown, multiple suicide attempts, and most likely my mother losing her daughter because I'd end my own life because I literally wouldn't be *able* to live that way. It's wonderful that you've been able to deal with hardships in your life, I'm glad for you. Not everyone has your experiences or that ability. Sometimes abortions *are* needed, for the health of the woman carrying it. I will *not* allow some stranger (doctor, politician, etc) to tell me that I *have* to put my mental health and my *life* at risk because of a parasite growing inside me. (Also, just to be clear, the *only* way I would ever get pregnant is through rape, so there is no being irresponsible or careless or anything like that at play here.)

Sorry that you are going thru this in your life an i wish  we could really talk in person to help each other out  see sometimes i feel like alll is lost at lest you have two good arms an two good legs.I never knew what it is like having them so see that is one bright side.Anouther is having a family that cares too an that loves you well wish i could help you out more only kind words i can give you.

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14 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

Laryal - that is simply not true - as ANY psychologist can tell you. The fact that many of us cannot get through these things is one of the factors in the increasing rate of suicides.

 

And actually - I would favour lifetime bans for drunk drivers who kill, yes. And VERY long bans for all drunk drivers.

 see i was a vitum of a driunk driver who hit my aunts car on prom night in 88.had to have a case on my leg for over two years. So yes i do know that you can get over stuff i know alot may think they can't. but i know they can if they find the help. Also the guy who did hit my aunts car seemed to only get a slap on the hand for it.But two years later he died in his own drunken car wreak karma not sure  but any one can i believe get over things that seem like nightmares if they have help.

 

Edited by Laryal

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Just now, Laryal said:

 see i was a vitum of a driunk driver who hit my aunts car on prom night in 88.had to have a case on my leg for over two years. So yes i do know that you can get over stuff i know alot may think they can't. but i know they can if they find the help.

 

Not everyone can. You really need to accept that. You must be stronger than many - including me. Though a leg cast for two years isn't quite in the same class as having to carry a rapist's child to term.

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2 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

Not everyone can. You really need to accept that. You must be stronger than many - including me. Though a leg cast for two years isn't quite in the same class as having to carry a rapist's child to term.

I know an understand but if i let that tragic event rule my life i would never go out in the world again. i guess i can see a way to over come what happens even if it is others who are going thru it is all.

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1 minute ago, Laryal said:

 see i was a vitum of a driunk driver who hit my aunts car on prom night in 88.had to have a case on my leg for over two years. So yes i do know that you can get over stuff i know alot may think they can't. but i know they can if they find the help.

 

Unfortunately, it's not that simple. Other people experience things differently. Just because you can get over something and endure a traumatic experience, does not mean that is an applicable outcome for all people. There are so many external (home life, support network, past history) and internal (emotional stability, mental health, cognition) factors that go into a person's ability to overcome obstacles in their life. We can never judge in absolute certainty that someone is able to "move on" just because your particular factors enabled you to do so. My little sister was diagnosed with cerebral palsy initially, but it's been changed to microcephaly and an array of mental disorders, and she likely has some mental illnesses as well-- no matter how much love and support we give this twelve year old girl, she is at high risk of killing herself. She just doesn't understand the world or the anger she has. So just because you had horrible experiences that you were able to muster through, does not mean that someone like my sister will ever find that within herself. 

 

 

On a slightly different note, there was a case I read about where a woman was eight weeks pregnant. Her 18 year old brother was actively dying in the hospital and needed a liver transplant. She was the only match that could give him part of a liver so he could survive, or else he would die waiting for someone else. But she was not allowed to donate part of her liver without having an abortion first. So, she made the decision to abort her fetus so that her younger brother may live. What would you say in this instance? What would be your judgment on her choice? 

My personal opinion is that there was really no choice between the two. Of course she should save her brother-- her embryo was hardly the size of a kidney bean, if that. It wasn't a child, was hardly even a pregnancy at that point. She had a living, breathing brother whom she'd had 18 years to develop a bond and memories with. That 8 week embryo? There's no history, no memories. It's literally no different than another embryo she could have later down the line. 

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4 minutes ago, Laryal said:

I know an understand but if i let that tragic event rule my life i would never go out in the world again. i guess i can see a way to over come what happens even if it is others who are going thru it is all.

 

And good for you. But my sister - badly emotionally damaged by our mother - is now in her 70s and hasn't managed to get over it - though she does live a full life - with grit and determination. But there is so much more she could have done in other circumstances. We are not all as strong as you must have been. I'd glad you were able to see a way forward. I'm glad she can too - but still.

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Guys ok know what how long ago was that? see now a days docs can preform surgery without harming a baby so saying that she had to decide maybe she did it depends on the year it was.Docs now can even do heart surgery on a fetus who would have died out side the womb if it was not done.So in other words it can an has been done where both baby son or duaghter who need say a ta liver can all be saved.

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1 minute ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

And good for you. But my sister - badly emotionally damaged by our mother - is now in her 70s and hasn't managed to get over it - though she does live a full life - with grit and determination. But there is so much more she could have done in other circumstances. We are not all as strong as you must have been. I'd glad you were able to see a way forward. I'm glad she can too - but still.

I still  cringe when i think of this my life could have ended an i would not be here talking to you right now. Do not think i do not understand i do ok.

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Not necessarily true. Removal of a chunk of liver could have affected the embryo just by disrupting its blood supply - quality and quantity. Not a simple matter of surgery - that could apply even if it were possible to do the surgery without anaesthesia.

 

From a medical journal: this was a mother trying to save her own child.

 

Quote

Pregnancy is often considered a contraindication to living related liver donation. There are serious medical and ethical considerations if a pregnant woman insists on undergoing partial hepatectomy to save her sick child. Herein we report a case of living related liver donation from a pregnant woman at 18 weeks of gestation to her 1-year-old child with decompensated cirrhosis due to biliary atresia. The left lateral segment of the liver was harvested for donation. Meticulous surgical technique and anesthetic management were mandatory in assuring a successful outcome. While this isolated case demonstrated that living related liver donation can be performed successfully with a pregnant donor, it should be undertaken only when there is absolutely no other donor and the recipient is in urgent need.

 

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11 minutes ago, Laryal said:

Guys ok know what how long ago was that? see now a days docs can preform surgery without harming a baby so saying that she had to decide maybe she did it depends on the year it was.Docs now can even do heart surgery on a fetus who would have died out side the womb if it was not done.So in other words it can an has been done where both baby son or duaghter who need say a ta liver can all be saved.

It was four years ago. Maybe it could have potentially been done, but the complications that arise from that are a lot greater. Sounds like the woman wanted to be sure her younger brother survived (as well as herself) and made the best choice she thought to ensure that happened. 

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8 minutes ago, Laryal said:

I still  cringe when i think of this my life could have ended an i would not be here talking to you right now. Do not think i do not understand i do ok.

 

And I cringe to recall that I would not be posting here today had I not had an abortion at 19. That's the thing with all this. There is no "one solution fits all" answer to this That's why choice is so very important. You would never have an abortion - I absolutely respect that. But you don't have the right to tell others that because you feel that way (and so does your friend) we who need an abortion should be denied that choice. Your choice fits you; mine fits me. We each have the right to our own opinion and our own moral standpoint.

Edited by Fuzzbucket

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1 hour ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Astreya, quite honestly, any mother who said that to her child would be an unfit mother. I don't think it's a valid argument. If she'd been forced to carry to term, she could have put the child up for adoption rather than subject it to that.

 

I may be pro-choice - I am, RABIDLY - but that doesn't  mean I would support what would in effect be child abuse. As an argument for choice, that's much like Laryal bringing in genocide as an argument for disallowing choice..

 

 

Yes, it would be abuse, and that's the point Astreya is making with her response....Which is a very valid argument as to why women should have the right to choose whether or not to carry a fetus, regardless of how it was conceived. But especially in cases of rape, because of this exact scenario.

 

Unfortunately, that scenario plays out in the real world daily, regardless of how distasteful it is to be done to a child. There a literally millions of children and grown adults, that grew up in such an atmosphere, where they were resented by the mother for having to carry to term. Of those mothers telling them exactly that, to remind them just how unwanted and an emotional burden on the mother. Where the mother wasn't only denied the right to abort, but also forced to raise that child by others in the name of 'it's not the child's fault' reasoning, and adoption not being an option afforded to them by those very same people. In many cases, it being the rapist. That is why it's so horrifying how regularly it happens, and when states or countries legalize rapists having rights to those children, further traumatizing the victim as well as her resentment towards the product of that rape 

It's one of those ugly truths about forced pregnancy and those children raised by those victims of rape. 

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32 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Not necessarily true. Removal of a chunk of liver could have affected the embryo just by disrupting its blood supply - quality and quantity. Not a simple matter of surgery - that could apply even if it were possible to do the surgery without anaesthesia.

 

From a medical journal: this was a mother trying to save her own child.

 

 

 

Got to love those that think that surgery, if it's 'common', is without risks at all....Heck, just had surgery Friday myself. A 'common' procedure that's considered 'non-invasive', yet very real risks that easily could have resulted in my death. But to ensure I live a few more decades, the surgery had to be done, so the risks were warranted, although seriously stressful. Luckily, I sailed through it without any complications luckily as well as they didn't find what they thought was there by the stress test, and will be returning to work tomorrow night since the incision is healing nicely. Although I'll have weight restrictions and have to be careful I don't injure it (which is going to be fun considering I'm accident prone) and bleed out on the work floor before I can get to a hospital. As well as worry of infection, for a couple of more weeks.

 

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11 hours ago, Astreya said:

@Laryal

What would you tell a women who tells you "I'll rather thrust a knife into my womb than being forced to carry a parasite to term that was begotten on my by a violent rape!" Would you chain her to a bed and force her to bring the pregnancy to term if she is clearly suicidal?

 

 

 

Actually have a friend that went through this.....She was raped by her wife's brother, to 'make her not be lesbian', and it resulted in an unwanted pregnancy....She became very suicidal and her family resorted to locking her in her bedroom at the early stages of her pregnancy, to keep her from self-aborting or attempting suicide....By her 3rd trimester they had her tied into her bed so she couldn't move at all till the delivery. All because they believed that abortion wasn't right....And she wouldn't have  thing to do with the baby for a long time afterwards, due to the trauma others forced onto her because her rape resulted in her becoming pregnant.

She still hasn't gotten over it, although she does love her daughter fiercely now, the result of that rape. But it took her years to be able to accept her daughter cause of the circumstances regardless. A few years ago, her and her wife talked about having another child, but her wife was the one who carried the child to term, because of the trauma she still experiences due to the rape and forced pregnancy. She's one of the strongest, loving, fierce protector and fighter I know....But the PTSD caused by the rape and pregnancy experience? She'll never overcome those points in her life, no matter how much she wishes otherwise. 

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I am an established person, with thoughts, feelings, friends, work, pets, family, therapists, games I like to play, a volunteer position that I contribute a lot to, a busy school schedule including travel. The embryo has none of that, and is not capable of having any of that.

 

I would not wish the adoption system on anyone.

 

I do not want pregnancy. This is not a time in life where the responsibility of a child would be good for me or the child.

 

If I were to get pregnant for any reason (failure of contraceptive, rape, or change of circumstances early in the pregnancy) I would abort. That is in the best interest of myself my life, and it is in the best interest of the embryo. It is an intruder to my body and my life. It does not have the capability to develop or retain any semblance of personhood, whereas I am already an established person. It is a simple choice and what's right for me. 

Edited by High Lord November

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Okay so you want to save them from abortion. Fine. I can understand that.

 

But what then? (All 'you' instances are generic and not aimed at a particular person.)

 

What are you doing to ensure the ones you save have a good life post-birth?

 

Are you supportive of a robust welfare system? Medicaid? Food stamps? Energy assistance (help paying for heating/cooling)? Daycare assistance? Housing assistance? Support with transportation? Because the reality is that children are expensive and sometimes people can't afford them without help, especially single-parent working families. 

 

Do you support comprehensive sex education, with the focus on real education and not only on abstinence? Free or low cost contraceptives for those who cannot otherwise afford it? We can reduce the need for abortions before they ever need to happen by teaching sex ed that is not only abstinence-based and by realizing that people have sex, accepting it, and throwing birth control their way. 

 

Are you supportive of doing something to rework the adoption and foster system so children are not sent to abusive homes or homes that only want them for the money? More regulation, stronger oversight, something? Abuse in these situations happens disturbingly often; there was a case reported about that very thing in the paper here (abq, nm) just last week! Adoption/foster is not the bed of roses people seem to think it is.

 

Are you supportive of all proposals that deny parental rights to rapists? Rapists get parental rights disturbingly often (even one instance is too many) and it needs to stop.

 

Because i see a lot of talking by anti-choicers, a lot of religious sentiment, but not a lot of walking their talk. Not a lot of substance. No care for what happens to it after they save it. Which is also why i say anti-choice instead of "pro-life"- because until you care about the lives of the saved after they are born, anti-choice is all this really is (at best it's "pro-(forced)-birth").

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3 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Astreya, quite honestly, any mother who said that to her child would be an unfit mother. I don't think it's a valid argument. If she'd been forced to carry to term, she could have put the child up for adoption rather than subject it to that.

 

I may be pro-choice - I am, RABIDLY - but that doesn't  mean I would support what would in effect be child abuse. As an argument for choice, that's much like Laryal bringing in genocide as an argument for disallowing choice..

I'm currently working in psychological support, and I guess you would not believe what cases I have encountered by now during that. There are indeed women who were so damaged by rape and violence that they decided to take their rage and aggression out at the children, just to be able to punish *someone* for their suffering.

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3 hours ago, Laryal said:

. everyone can get over tramitic things in their lives no matter what it is.

You are completely wrong. I do work in psychological support, and there are so many who can't cope at all, no matter how much support they get, even when admitted in hospitals where they get full time care by specialists for a year and longer.

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3 hours ago, Laryal said:

I know an understand but if i let that tragic event rule my life i would never go out in the world again. i guess i can see a way to over come what happens even if it is others who are going thru it is all.

 

 

Good for you, that you say you were able to overcome obstacles in your life....Unfortunately, that isn't the case in many other situations. Some may overcome tragedies in their lives, yet many others never do. 

Here's a bit about myself to highlight just how people react or overcome things in their lives....

 

I was born illegitimately. As were my two younger brothers. We didn't know this till much later in our adult lives, but the facts of how we came into this world explains a lot of why we experienced the abuse we did growing up....See, my mother married when I was 4 and my brothers were 3 and 2....Because of the circumstances of our births, our step father believed it was his right to sexually abuse all 3 of us, that because he took us in as 'his own' by 'marrying our mother', it gave him the right to try to make a sex slave of me starting at the age of 4, then sexually molest my brothers as well to teach them 'how to be men'.

 

Our mother? As far as we know was unaware of that happening, but then again she was actually physically abusive towards us because of her shame of having us out of wedlock and her anger at our birth father for deceiving her about his marital status and eventual abandonment of her and us. And since she choose to drown her anger in alcohol, had a love-hate relationship concerning us? Spent much time in the hospital psych ward? She may have chosen simply to bury her head in the sand just to keep up the appearance of 'respectability' that marriage to our stepfather afforded her....

Now, I could go into great detail about my experiences as well as my brothers about how we were forced to have sex with each other while he filmed it, how he 'gave' me to his friends or male family members who were pedophiles too, of how my suicide attempts started at age 6....But here's the thing....Even though there's millions of sexually abused children in the world? Even if some of their experiences are similar to mine or my brothers? Everyone reacts and 'survives' it differently....Heck, even among my brothers and myself, how we've gone on with our lives and our personalities of coping with those experiences are different, and we experienced the same things together. 

 

I'm just grateful that the abuse I suffered, didn't result in a pregnancy. But then again, our abuser was very 'pro-birth control' in that area. And he ensured that the males he 'loaned' me to, also used protection. 

I've spent most of my life working with thousands of rape and domestic violence victims over the decades....And although there's similarities? No two experiences or emotional reactions are the same, even if they were abused or raped the same as another. And how they cope with those experiences aren't the same either, each reacting differently or how they interact in the world because of what was done to them. 

It's real easy to sit on the outside looking in, saying 'well, get over it, I did' when you aren't that person or experiencing their exact emotions and ghosts....What may have worked for you, doesn't mean at all it's going to work for someone else. To assume such is ego on your own part, not understanding of the other person's circumstances or abilities to cope with situations unique to themselves due to it's about their specific mental and emotional response of their specific experience, not your own. 

 

Abortion is a personal experience, and the reasons differ for every woman, suited to what is needed to help them live their lives in the manner they see fit. What you'd choose or not choose, isn't basis of what others should or shouldn't choose, because their situations and strengths are different despite similarities you imagine exist. 

Edited by AlicornsPrayer
Typos

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9 minutes ago, Astreya said:

You are completely wrong. I do work in psychological support, and there are so many who can't cope at all, no matter how much support they get, even when admitted in hospitals where they get full time care by specialists for a year and longer.

 

 

BINGO! That's been my experience as well as a survivor and working with victims of sexual abuse or domestic violence. I can sit and listen to their stories, see similarities to what I experienced....But on a mental level, how I coped with what was done to me to how they cope? Like comparing apples to oranges in most cases. And instead of telling them HOW to cope or deal with it, the best thing is simply to listen and allow them to find the way of coping on their own. To support their choices, not condemn them because their choice may differ from my own choices....

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