Abortion

[olympe]

On 8/26/2018 at 9:47 AM, Fuzzbucket said:

 

Well, no, of course not - I am sorry you can't see the difference; I'm glad most people here have more discriminating minds. But as there ARE far too many humans in the world already, if a woman is carrying a pregnancy she does not want, there is no point whatever in forcing her to carry to term. I am assuming - I am certain I am correct - that there are abortions wanted, asked for and carried out among all races, religious groups, etc. You are completely distorting the discussion here - something that only those who favour forcing woman to carry babies against their will and at risk to their health - do. It is the woman carrying the pregnancy who asks for an abortion, not some war criminal. I object equally to women being barred from having abortions as I do to women being forced to have them - something which is rare to say the least.

So, since there are far too many humans in the world already, procreation should be prohibited. Or all countries should take the same route as China: One child only. Or infanticide should be legalized. Or murderers in general should be lauded, not imprisoned. Honestly, that argument in and of itself is not an argument for abortions.

 

While I'm most definitely pro choice, I feel that some people take said choice too lightly. About a year ago, a colleague of mine, a young woman in her mid-twenties, mentioned that she had had 7 abortions. Because, inexplicably, her birth control always failed.  Abortion =/= stand-in for regular birth control. Because even fetuses can feel, hear, see, smell, taste, move, swallow or get hiccups.

[Fuzzbucket]

10 minutes ago, olympe said:

So, since there are far too many humans in the world already, procreation should be prohibited. Or all countries should take the same route as China: One child only. Or infanticide should be legalized. Or murderers in general should be lauded, not imprisoned. Honestly, that argument in and of itself is not an argument for abortions.

 

While I'm most definitely pro choice, I feel that some people take said choice too lightly. About a year ago, a colleague of mine, a young woman in her mid-twenties, mentioned that she had had 7 abortions. Because, inexplicably, her birth control always failed.  Abortion =/= stand-in for regular birth control. Because even fetuses can feel, hear, see, smell, taste, move, swallow or get hiccups.

 

No, of course not. Twist not my words, olympe.  The idea that every baby born is a terribly good idea, and so every woman who gets pregnant, no matter how it happens and no matter how equipped she is to cope with a child, should be forced to carry to term because GENOCIDE (or at the very least, murder), in a world that is overpopulated, is madness. I do agree that abortion is not a sensible method of birth control. And embryos in the early stages do not have those feeling you cite. Most later (2nd trimester) abortions are the direct result of women having to jump through hoops to get them.

[olympe]

That's why I said fetuses, not embryos.  Personally, I can kind of agree with early-stage abortions, unless there are dire circumstances. But abortions after around the halfway point seriously freak me out. Because, with the things doctors can do nowadays, these can be saved (some of the time). Even outside their non-mother's womb.

[Fuzzbucket]

On the other hand there are: Women asking for an abortion very early on who have been hampered every step of the way (Northern Ireland is  a case in point); women who genuinely didn't know they were pregnant - when I worked for a doctor I knew a couple who hadn't known they were pregnant till they went into labour !; and - horribly - there are conditions that can only be detected late in pregnancy - conditions which mean the baby would probably not survive anyway, or would be permanently damaged in ways that would mean it had no quality of life at all. It is a tough road; that's why I find rigid laws on precise dates when abortions should be allowed unacceptable.

 

Suppose you had your 20 week scan and it detected anencephaly. Which cannot be detected, on the whole, before the 16 week scan. The baby will not survive more than a matter of hours. I know what I'd do. Ghastly though it would be.

[Laryal]

8 hours ago, purpledragonclaw said:

Laryal, I am not attacking you. At all. I am responding to your comments with facts. You are not responding to my arguments with any proof to back up your assertions. You are not explaining why you feel abortion is okay in the case of rape or incest. In the case of protection failing. Why there should be no exceptions. 

I know you were not an neither was Fuzbucket ok  here is your answer it is a son or daughter that you are killing.An a miscarriage is that the baby dies on it's own with out no help from a doc ok.Adortion is the taking of a life of a human a son or daughter. A family member that a doctor an the mother kills. Also my mom was very sick when she was having me so sick that her doc asked if she wanted to abort me .He said she could have anouther. My mom said no cause it would not be the same baby  she had rheumatic fever with me not sure if it was that or something else but i came out having cerebral palsy.Now did my mom reget it no she loved me for who i was an am today. Also you guys should count yourselvs lucky to be able to have kids.Me i was 21 or so when i had to have a  hysterectomy cause i had tumors an the doc said he was glad he did it thru my stomach cause it looked like a six moth pregnancy. all tumor so yea. sorry crying now.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Laryal

[Dekka]

33 minutes ago, Laryal said:

I know you were not an neither was Fuzbucket ok  here is your answer it is a son or daughter that you are killing.An a miscarriage is that the baby dies on it's own with out no help from a doc ok.Adortion is the taking of a life of a human a son or daughter. A family member that a doctor an the mother kills. Also my mom was very sick when she was having me so sick that her doc asked if she wanted to abort me .He said she could have anouther. My mom said no cause it would not be the same baby  she had rheumatic fever with me not sure if it was that or something else but i came out having cerebral palsy.Now did my mom reget it no she loved me for who i was an am today. Also you guys should count yourselvs lucky to be able to have kids.Me i was 21 or so when i had to have a  hysterectomy cause i had tumors an the doc said he was glad he did it thru my stomach cause it looked like a six moth pregnancy. all tumor so yea. sorry crying now.

you are entitled to your opinion, and it seems that you have been through experiences that have led you to believe what you do, but that still in no way allows you to tell anyone else they shouldn't do it.

[Laryal]

16 minutes ago, Dekka said:

you are entitled to your opinion, and it seems that you have been through experiences that have led you to believe what you do, but that still in no way allows you to tell anyone else they shouldn't do it.

I was not telling them to do anything she asked a question i answered ok. I can not seem to get a break .

Edited August 28, 2018 by Laryal

[Astreya]

Without joining the fray, I just stumbled over another very interesting article on the subject:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/27/inside-the-secret-network-providing-home-abortions-across-the-us

[AlicornsPrayer]

14 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

Actually - while I profoundly disagree with Laryal, this site has very many members whose first language isn't English. I do agree that Laryal's posts are hard to read, but her poor writing isn't a valid reason to dismiss her views as not worth considering. I disagree with her on the basis that much of what she says is factually and philosophically wrong, and also that her views appear to be religiously based - and many people don't happen to buy into the Ten Commandments (if that was what she meant earlier) or other religious tenets, not because of her spelling and punctuation. 

 

Though I have to add (because I can) that my father was an Anglican priest and very much pro choice. He actually helped a couple of his parishioners get terminations when it was harder to do than it is today. Humane religious officials see humans who need help, and - help them get what they need. Those who are blinkered by their religion are actually lesser people, in my view, and the exact kind of reason that I turned away from religion in the first place.

 

When someone is using text speak, it isn't an issue of language. It's an issue of them not being serious, but frivolous. And she was using text speak in what I was responding to. 

[Laryal]

15 minutes ago, AlicornsPrayer said:

 

When someone is using text speak, it isn't an issue of language. It's an issue of them not being serious, but frivolous. And she was using text speak in what I was responding to. 

Ok know it all  since you want to know i was typing i have no text speak at all on my computer so get over yourself oh higher an mighter than all. You got me mad now an you better learn not to be so rude an disrespectful of other players.👿

Edited August 28, 2018 by Laryal

[AlicornsPrayer]

11 hours ago, Laryal said:

You know what who cares if i spell wrong it is not about a player but abortion  you guys are discussing an like a mod said  earlier in this chat do not attack a player .So move along. i state my opinions but is seems like all that matters is your own opinions an so you attack a player so why are you attacking me for? An Fuzzbucket thanks even though my spelling is sometimes wrong i do speak English an like i said they are attacking me an not  going on about discussing what this chat is really about.Life is a precious thing not just for a chosen few but for every living human being not just me an you.

 

 

Actually, I attacked your method of argument, not yourself. There's a difference there darling. And your spelling does matter, in these types of discussions. If you have to resort to text speak, then you aren't investing any serious thought into the discussion to begin with. And we're not 'playing' here. This is a serious discussion and as such you should treat it in that manner, not in the frivolous way you've chosen to by not showing care in how you express your written thoughts. If you can't be serious enough to take the time to properly write out your thoughts, then why should what you say be taken seriously in the first place? 

But by all means, please continue to play the victim there....It just means that your whole argument is exactly what I've said repeatedly....Emotional outbursts rather then well thought out, rational thinking to begin with. And I actually know actual rational, well written pro-lifers....Who don't resort the emotional outbursts or black mail tactics you tend to favor....Who can argue their position without using false comparisons, not call it 'murder', or any of the other irrational tactics your posts have shown. 

You're right...Life is precious. But the most precious life is the life of the person already living in the world, not a potential life. When it comes to the individual? The woman is the more precious life, not the potential for life her body is hosting. And as such, it's up to her to make that decision of whether she should carry it or not, and not be vilified for choosing not to. 

Now me? I've had 3 miscarriages, very wanted pregnancies. Two of which, due to my health, I was advised not to carry but did so anyways. Nearly died both times, should have died but didn't....But it was my choice to make. And as such, it isn't my place to tell another woman that she should choose as I chose, simply cause I was willing to die to have a child. And that's the part you keep missing. Instead wanting to falsely label it 'murder', when it's not. Try to compare it to genocide, when it isn't. And you want to put a potential life above the life of the woman....And if they choose differently, you'll falsely label them murderers and compare them to mass murderers, while **** shaming them? 

 

Your position isn't backed by facts, but by your emotions.

[Laryal]

Just now, AlicornsPrayer said:

 

 

Actually, I attacked your method of argument, not yourself. There's a difference there darling. And your spelling does matter, in these types of discussions. If you have to resort to text speak, then you aren't investing any serious thought into the discussion to begin with. And we're not 'playing' here. This is a serious discussion and as such you should treat it in that manner, not in the frivolous way you've chosen to by not showing care in how you express your written thoughts. If you can't be serious enough to take the time to properly write out your thoughts, then why should what you say be taken seriously in the first place? 

But by all means, please continue to play the victim there....It just means that your whole argument is exactly what I've said repeatedly....Emotional outbursts rather then well thought out, rational thinking to begin with. And I actually know actual rational, well written pro-lifers....Who don't resort the emotional outbursts or black mail tactics you tend to favor....Who can argue their position without using false comparisons, not call it 'murder', or any of the other irrational tactics your posts have shown. 

You're right...Life is precious. But the most precious life is the life of the person already living in the world, not a potential life. When it comes to the individual? The woman is the more precious life, not the potential for life her body is hosting. And as such, it's up to her to make that decision of whether she should carry it or not, and not be vilified for choosing not to. 

Now me? I've had 3 miscarriages, very wanted pregnancies. Two of which, due to my health, I was advised not to carry but did so anyways. Nearly died both times, should have died but didn't....But it was my choice to make. And as such, it isn't my place to tell another woman that she should choose as I chose, simply cause I was willing to die to have a child. And that's the part you keep missing. Instead wanting to falsely label it 'murder', when it's not. Try to compare it to genocide, when it isn't. And you want to put a potential life above the life of the woman....And if they choose differently, you'll falsely label them murderers and compare them to mass murderers, while shaming them? 

 

Your position isn't backed by facts, but by your emotions.

Look i talked to a mod about you so better stop now attack me an yes you were saying my spelling was not right an you did it again so better stop now understood?

[AlicornsPrayer]

11 minutes ago, Laryal said:

Ok know it all  since you want to know i was typing i have no text speak at all on my computer so get over yourself oh higher an mighter than all. You got me mad now an you better learn not to be so rude an disrespectful of other players.👿

 

 

Text speak isn't a program. It's how you type your words. You write in text speak darling, by your choice, not a program. And not mad at you at all. Why in the world would I be 'mad' to begin with. I simply don't take you seriously, because your writing shows you aren't serious, just emotional. 

[AlicornsPrayer]

1 minute ago, Laryal said:

Look i talked to a mod about you so better stop now attack me an yes you were saying my spelling was not right an you did it again so better stop now understood?

 

ROTFPMSL! You're not being 'attacked'. Not by me or anyone else. If you can't handle being disagreed with, and if you view how your writing and choice of words show the lack of rationality of your posts as being an 'attack'? Then you really shouldn't get yourself involved in serious discussions such as this. Because the only thing I've done is disagree with you and explained why, from your own words. 

[Laryal]

7 minutes ago, AlicornsPrayer said:

 

 

Text speak isn't a program. It's how you type your words. You write in text speak darling, by your choice, not a program. And not mad at you at all. Why in the world would I be 'mad' to begin with. I simply don't take you seriously, because your writing shows you aren't serious, just emotional. 

Stop already ok you are trying to prove yourself right an it is not going to work understand so get over yourself. no your making me madder each time  you say something to me so stop understand? end of discusion now. yes then  kept saying it was becouse of my spelling who give a care it seems like only you on here that does so stop.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Laryal

[Laryal]

5 minutes ago, AlicornsPrayer said:

 

ROTFPMSL! You're not being 'attacked'. Not by me or anyone else. If you can't handle being disagreed with, and if you view how your writing and choice of words show the lack of rationality of your posts as being an 'attack'? Then you really shouldn't get yourself involved in serious discussions such as this. Because the only thing I've done is disagree with you and explained why, from your own words. 

Well it seems like your the only one bugging me about it so in truth you are attacking me an my spelling  you are the only one on here doing it so stop now understand?!!

 

[purpledragonclaw]

Both of you stop. AlicornsPrayer, you may disagree with how Laryal communicates, but that is no reason to be condescending. She is still conveying her opinion in an understandable way. Both of you, keep this on topic.

 

Laryal, so even if a woman is pregnant by rape or incest she should carry the baby to term? With the reminder of that trauma for the rest of her life (if it is traumatic for her)? What about the case where without an abortion a woman would die from the complications of childbirth? Is one death better, or two?

 

Thank you also for sharing your experience for why you feel the way you do. It gives me a better understanding of your position. I may not agree with you, nor you with me, but I at least wanted to know where your beliefs came from.

[Laryal]

5 minutes ago, purpledragonclaw said:

Both of you stop. AlicornsPrayer, you may disagree with how Laryal communicates, but that is no reason to be condescending. She is still conveying her opinion in an understandable way. Both of you, keep this on topic.

 

Laryal, so even if a woman is pregnant by rape or incest she should carry the baby to term? With the reminder of that trauma for the rest of her life (if it is traumatic for her)? What about the case where without an abortion a woman would die from the complications of childbirth? Is one death better, or two?

 

Thank you also for sharing your experience for why you feel the way you do. It gives me a better understanding of your position. I may not agree with you, nor you with me, but I at least wanted to know where your beliefs came from.

Thanks an sorry for  what went on an asking you this is it the babies fult of the rape? An there is ways to save both with what the doctors knows these days but i understand an will have to look further into it ok.:)

Edited August 28, 2018 by Laryal

[Astreya]

@Laryal

Maybe you could see it from the perspective of the baby, too. Imagine you are told you are the result of a rape. Maybe the mother will mistreat the child because she can't stand hir presence. Or even subtle psychological abuse could make that child's life hell.

How would you feel if your mother told you that you were the result of  rape?

[Laryal]

9 minutes ago, Astreya said:

@Laryal

Maybe you could see it from the perspective of the baby, too. Imagine you are told you are the result of a rape. Maybe the mother will mistreat the child because she can't stand hir presence. Or even subtle psychological abuse could make that child's life hell.

How would you feel if your mother told you that you were the result of  rape?

it would make me sad  that she was an an if i was old enuff then we could talk an get thru it together. If the mother did abuse the child it is still not the child's fult an if it was found out the child would be taken away from the mother. it is late here like almost 11 pm need to get some sleep need to help my mom with stuff tomorrow see ya guys.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Laryal

[Astreya]

Well, you are obviously very idealistic. In most cases the child services will never learn of children that are abused. And psychological abuse is even more difficult to determine.

 

But you haven't answered my question. How would you feel if you were told that you were the result of a violent rape? How would you feel if the children at school get to know that you are a rapist's child (and mind you, such stuff does tend to get out) and then make your life hell for it?

 

Wouldn't it be better to spare both the mother and the child the pain?

[Laryal]

2 minutes ago, Astreya said:

Well, you are obviously very idealistic. In most cases the child services will never learn of children that are abused. And psychological abuse is even more difficult to determine.

 

But you haven't answered my question. How would you feel if you were told that you were the result of a violent rape? How would you feel if the children at school get to know that you are a rapist's child (and mind you, such stuff does tend to get out) and then make your life hell for it?

 

Wouldn't it be better to spare both the mother and the child the pain?

i really know how that feels having others  ridicule had that happen to me cause of my cerebral palsy i know it is different but hurts the same an if i can get thru it so can others. life is no bed or roses if it is there are still thorns. I can put myself  in their shoes so to speak really. i just can not put it in words have to really log out now sorry getting to tired to think.

[Astreya]

@Laryal

I think it is cruel to say "if I can get through this, then others have to get through it, too". Why not allow others to decide differently?

 

What would you tell a women who tells you "I'll rather thrust a knife into my womb than being forced to carry a parasite to term that was begotten on my by a violent rape!" Would you chain her to a bed and force her to bring the pregnancy to term if she is clearly suicidal?

 

Or what would you say if a fetus is diagnosed having osteogenesis imperfecta type II where the bones already break in the womb of the mother and where the baby will most certainly die in horrible pain within the first year (if it survived the birth, that is) due to respiratory failure or intracerebral hemorrhage, while all bones break already from the lightest touch or movements? Would you really want all this senseless suffering for both the parents and the baby when you could prevent it by an abortion?

 

Edit: By the way, I just found an article that actually deals with such a case: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/incompatible-with-life-one-mothers-account-of-her-difficult-decision-to-request-a-rare-late-term-abortion

" when the fetus was diagnosed with a rare bone disease, Carol determined she had two options: Miscarry the baby naturally and deliver a child with a shattered skeleton that would live for a matter of seconds or request a rare late-term abortion."

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Astreya

[HeatherMarie]

2 hours ago, Laryal said:

i really know how that feels having others  ridicule had that happen to me cause of my cerebral palsy i know it is different but hurts the same an if i can get thru it so can others. life is no bed or roses if it is there are still thorns. I can put myself  in their shoes so to speak really. i just can not put it in words have to really log out now sorry getting to tired to think.

 

See, that's where your argument breaks down. You seem to think that because you have certain experiences, everyone else has the same. Everyone else thinks the same. Everyone else can handle the same. That's a basic flaw of assumption, and it makes it very hard to look at this issue in an unbiased way. If you believe that everyone experiences things the same, then of course you wouldn't understand why abortion is so needed for some people. But frankly it's rather insulting to view people that way, to assume that because you can do something obviously everyone else can as well. 

 

I have two mental disorders that affect my life in severe ways and have led to 12 suicide attempts in my life (so far). I have had multiple complete breakdowns that required hospitalization and 24/7 observation. I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I am not and will probably *never* be mentally stable enough to carry a fetus for 9 months. I can tell you exactly what would end up happening, and it includes a complete breakdown, multiple suicide attempts, and most likely my mother losing her daughter because I'd end my own life because I literally wouldn't be *able* to live that way. It's wonderful that you've been able to deal with hardships in your life, I'm glad for you. Not everyone has your experiences or that ability. Sometimes abortions *are* needed, for the health of the woman carrying it. I will *not* allow some stranger (doctor, politician, etc) to tell me that I *have* to put my mental health and my *life* at risk because of a parasite growing inside me. (Also, just to be clear, the *only* way I would ever get pregnant is through rape, so there is no being irresponsible or careless or anything like that at play here.)

[Fuzzbucket]

6 hours ago, Laryal said:

Thanks an sorry for  what went on an asking you this is it the babies fault of the rape? An there is ways to save both with what the doctors knows these days but i understand an will have to look further into it ok.:)

 

5 hours ago, Astreya said:

@Laryal

Maybe you could see it from the perspective of the baby, too. Imagine you are told you are the result of a rape. Maybe the mother will mistreat the child because she can't stand hir presence. Or even subtle psychological abuse could make that child's life hell.

How would you feel if your mother told you that you were the result of  rape?

 

As one who has a daughter who was told by some charming school mates who did the math that she was an accident (she was, in a way; she was totally unplanned) - and who has never got over it - she "knows" she was unwanted, no matter what I tell her - these things are not as easy as people think. Not everyone can get past this stuff. And she was wanted, just unplanned. IF she had been the result of a rape - I dread to think how she would have felt.

 

5 hours ago, Laryal said:

i really know how that feels having others  ridicule had that happen to me cause of my cerebral palsy i know it is different but hurts the same an if i can get thru it so can others. life is no bed or roses if it is there are still thorns. I can put myself  in their shoes so to speak really. i just can not put it in words have to really log out now sorry getting to tired to think.

 

Not everyone can get past stuff like this. It's nice if you are that strong. I know I'm not, and I also know that my daughter still hasn't got past that. And she's now in her fifties, and no-one has ridiculed her for it since grade school.

 

2 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

See, that's where your argument breaks down. You seem to think that because you have certain experiences, everyone else has the same. Everyone else thinks the same. Everyone else can handle the same. That's a basic flaw of assumption, and it makes it very hard to look at this issue in an unbiased way. If you believe that everyone experiences things the same, then of course you wouldn't understand why abortion is so needed for some people. But frankly it's rather insulting to view people that way, to assume that because you can do something obviously everyone else can as well. 

 

I have two mental disorders that affect my life in severe ways and have led to 12 suicide attempts in my life (so far). I have had multiple complete breakdowns that required hospitalization and 24/7 observation. I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I am not and will probably *never* be mentally stable enough to carry a fetus for 9 months. I can tell you exactly what would end up happening, and it includes a complete breakdown, multiple suicide attempts, and most likely my mother losing her daughter because I'd end my own life because I literally wouldn't be *able* to live that way. It's wonderful that you've been able to deal with hardships in your life, I'm glad for you. Not everyone has your experiences or that ability. Sometimes abortions *are* needed, for the health of the woman carrying it. I will *not* allow some stranger (doctor, politician, etc) to tell me that I *have* to put my mental health and my *life* at risk because of a parasite growing inside me. (Also, just to be clear, the *only* way I would ever get pregnant is through rape, so there is no being irresponsible or careless or anything like that at play here.)

 

This. I wouldn't be here posting this if I hadn't had an abortion at 19. It has to be the choice of the woman, who understands her own situation better than anyone else.

 

And surely even you would allow abortions in the cases cited in that National Post article ?

 

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/incompatible-with-life-one-mothers-account-of-her-difficult-decision-to-request-a-rare-late-term-abortion