Abortion

[Dekka]

1 hour ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

Those parentheses are why I very very much don't think abortion should be *illegal* at any stage. Because there are always going to be exceptions. If the fetus is viable outside the womb, maybe the actual delivery would be extremely risky to the mother's health or even to her life. If the fetus is 'normal' and healthy, that doesn't at all guarantee that nothing would go wrong during the rest of the pregnancy or that the fetus would be born alive. If the fetus is 'healthy' and the mother doesn't have any physical life-threatening pregnancy issues, there is still the possibility that the mother isn't *mentally* healthy enough to carry a fetus to term, and may end up having a complete breakdown and possibly even committing suicide if they are *forced* to carry to term. I completely believe that, ideally, an abortion should be done as early as possible, but there are soooo many reasons that may not be possible (especially given the hoops most women have to jump through to even be allowed one!) and I don't think making it illegal at a later time will do anyone any favors. Because of all those exceptions, what would a *fair* law like that even look like? 'Cannot have abortion if over this many weeks pregnant, except in this case and that case and if this happens and that happens'?

 

perhaps in a case of mental stability or such as that, there could be some sort of psych eval determining if she is fit or unfit to carry the child?  maybe better than nothing although i'm not too fond of that idea. but i'm also not a fan of the idea of killing a fetus that could live outside the womb.  perhaps -- instead of a late term *abortion* if the fetus is viable and it is safe for the woman carrying, maybe just an early delivery (if the fetus is old enough for that to work) and hope for the best, instead of just killing something that has the ability to survive.  

[HeatherMarie]

Psych evaluations are not always accurate or a good way of figuring out what someone can handle if it hasn't already happened. Most psych evals are done by professionals who have never met the person before the eval and certainly do not know as much about what they can handle as that person themselves. Honestly, in my experience, psych evals can be extremely insulting and are really just another way of controlling someone else's life... Do these complete strangers *really* know better then I do if I'll have a mental breakdown if I carry to term? Using some stranger's opinion as the basis for denying someone a medical procedure is ridiculous. Also, how can people be *sure* that the evaluator's conclusion is not biased because of their own personal feelings about abortion? 

 

And, again, 'safe' for the woman carrying comes with so many exceptions and caveats. Giving birth is not actually 'safe' in general, even for a healthy woman, completely healthy women can and do *die* while giving birth. I really don't think it's for anyone else to say that it's 'safe' for a woman to put her body and mind through that if the woman feels otherwise.

 

edit: I apologize if that sounds harsh, but I have personally had experience with psych evals that determined government support and I *know* they are not always accurate or in the best interests of the person being evaluated.

Edited August 25, 2018 by HeatherMarie

[Laryal]

16 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

This is not a  human.  In no way is it "unjust" to have it removed from my womb.

 

And until you can show me that this is can survive on its own, nor is this.

 

 

 

Absolutely. The mother's life is just as important as the clump of cells she carries, even up to the point that it is recognisably human.

 

@Laryal I assume you will be happy to adopt and raise every last unwanted baby there is, if we are forced to carry them all to term by Right to Lifers ? There are already far too many people in this world anyway.

So you are saying that life does not matter an there are to many humans in this world? Ok So here is what one person said or done to try an get rid of all the one he thought was not perfect Under Hitler's leadership and racially motivated ideology, the Nazi regime was responsible for the genocide of at least 5.5 million Jews and millions of other victims whom he and his followers deemed Untermenschen (sub-humans) or socially undesirable. Hitler and the Nazi regime were also responsible for the killing of an estimated 19.3 million civilians and prisoners of war. In addition, 28.7 million soldiers and civilians died as a result of military action in the European theatre. The number of civilians killed during World War II was unprecedented in warfare and the casualties constituted the deadliest conflict in human history. So like today humans are doing the same thing killing unborn babies they deem unworthy So your statement to many humans in this world is right up the alley with this guy's thinking ann to everyone who does think that an unborn baby no matter the stage of life is unworthy.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Laryal

[Astreya]

Well, some of the staunched anti-abortionists in the USofA show that an abortion is only evil as long as they do not have to get rid of unwanted kids they begat on their mistresses themselves: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/25/a-republican-theme-on-abortions-its-ok-for-me-evil-for-thee

[HeatherMarie]

..... Is someone really comparing terminating a fetus to genocide? Wow. I'm pretty sure multiple people in this thread have already posted why there is a difference between a *potential* life and a human being who has memories and experiences and history. Human beings are living, breathing beings that can (usually) survive on their own without literally stealing nutrients from another person, unlike a fetus. Fetuses are not able to live outside the womb at the time-frame where the majority of abortions take place. So yes, a *potential* life that cannot yet *live* without harming the mother is not as important as the *actual* life of the mother. (And yes, even completely healthy fetuses do actively harm the mother.)

[purpledragonclaw]

11 hours ago, AlicornsPrayer said:

My philosophy is this....

 

If you don't like it, then don't have one. But your choice isn't a reason to deny another the right to choose differently. Period.

 

This is the overarching principle I believe in. Your life, your choice. Why are we denying the right of a woman to choose? Why are we circumventing their free will? Why is your belief better than someone else's to the point where it should have legal standing to enforce it on others? What if not everyone believes in the reason you give for why they shouldn't have one? 

 

 

[AlicornsPrayer]

2 hours ago, Laryal said:

So you are saying that life does not matter an there are to many humans in this world? Ok So here is what one person said or done to try an get rid of all the one he thought was not perfect Under Hitler's leadership and racially motivated ideology, the Nazi regime was responsible for the genocide of at least 5.5 million Jews and millions of other victims whom he and his followers deemed Untermenschen (sub-humans) or socially undesirable. Hitler and the Nazi regime were also responsible for the killing of an estimated 19.3 million civilians and prisoners of war. In addition, 28.7 million soldiers and civilians died as a result of military action in the European theatre. The number of civilians killed during World War II was unprecedented in warfare and the casualties constituted the deadliest conflict in human history. So like today humans are doing the same thing killing unborn babies they deem unworthy So your statement to many humans in this world is right up the alley with this guy's thinking ann to everyone who does think that an unborn baby no matter the stage of life is unworthy.

 

You need to learn the difference between genocide and abortion. Your argument here isn't even comparing apples to oranges, but like trying to compare fruit to tar....Not comparable or associated in any manner. Your whole position here is an illogical fallacy.

[Fuzzbucket]

6 hours ago, Laryal said:

So you are saying that life does not matter an there are to many humans in this world? Ok So here is what one person said or done to try an get rid of all the one he thought was not perfect Under Hitler's leadership and racially motivated ideology, the Nazi regime was responsible for the genocide of at least 5.5 million Jews and millions of other victims whom he and his followers deemed Untermenschen (sub-humans) or socially undesirable. Hitler and the Nazi regime were also responsible for the killing of an estimated 19.3 million civilians and prisoners of war. In addition, 28.7 million soldiers and civilians died as a result of military action in the European theatre. The number of civilians killed during World War II was unprecedented in warfare and the casualties constituted the deadliest conflict in human history. So like today humans are doing the same thing killing unborn babies they deem unworthy So your statement to many humans in this world is right up the alley with this guy's thinking ann to everyone who does think that an unborn baby no matter the stage of life is unworthy.

 

Well, no, of course not - I am sorry you can't see the difference; I'm glad most people here have more discriminating minds. But as there ARE far too many humans in the world already, if a woman is carrying a pregnancy she does not want, there is no point whatever in forcing her to carry to term. I am assuming - I am certain I am correct - that there are abortions wanted, asked for and carried out among all races, religious groups, etc. You are completely distorting the discussion here - something that only those who favour forcing woman to carry babies against their will and at risk to their health - do. It is the woman carrying the pregnancy who asks for an abortion, not some war criminal. I object equally to women being barred from having abortions as I do to women being forced to have them - something which is rare to say the least.

 

3 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

..... Is someone really comparing terminating a fetus to genocide? Wow. I'm pretty sure multiple people in this thread have already posted why there is a difference between a *potential* life and a human being who has memories and experiences and history. Human beings are living, breathing beings that can (usually) survive on their own without literally stealing nutrients from another person, unlike a fetus. Fetuses are not able to live outside the womb at the time-frame where the majority of abortions take place. So yes, a *potential* life that cannot yet *live* without harming the mother is not as important as the *actual* life of the mother. (And yes, even completely healthy fetuses do actively harm the mother.)

 

Exactly.

 

3 hours ago, purpledragonclaw said:

 

This is the overarching principle I believe in. Your life, your choice. Why are we denying the right of a woman to choose? Why are we circumventing their free will? Why is your belief better than someone else's to the point where it should have legal standing to enforce it on others? What if not everyone believes in the reason you give for why they shouldn't have one?

 

3 hours ago, AlicornsPrayer said:

 

You need to learn the difference between genocide and abortion. Your argument here isn't even comparing apples to oranges, but like trying to compare fruit to tar....Not comparable or associated in any manner. Your whole position here is an illogical fallacy.

 

Thanks, guys. I wish more people took the trouble to think things through instead of dragging in "arguments" that have nothing to do with the issue.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Fuzzbucket

[Laryal]

Killing is killing no matter how you look at it.I guess you guys with you line of thinking will cry out  longer an louder if all the world decided that you had to get an abortion even if you did not want it like they do in China.So letts see who will start this cry or outrage couse of my post. See it starts small then it grows to where you have no idea what is right or wrong.Your rights are like ohhh woman have a choice.Well how about a murder he has a choice to kill who every he wants right it is his right to do what he wants is it? so if woman can kill a baby why not allow those who kill kill that way we can get rid of allot more poeple an the world will  have allot less.Oh but murder is wrong killing a baby is not killing a human being you guys  need to learn what is right an wrong but i guess you guy's rights are above those of a baby's who can not speak for themselves so all of us who aree for life do give them a voice.:)

 

[Fuzzbucket]

You really do not seem to understand the difference between a human being and a clump of cells living off a woman's body.

 

I'm not wild about China's system myself - Chinese women should have the right to choose abortion, but not be forced to have one.  But other than that I'm not aware of anywhere in the world that anyone is forced to have an abortion. If you don't want one, don't ever have one. If I wanted one, I would, and I should have that right. The right to remove a parasitic group of cells that cannot survive without leeching nutrients from my body, and which, if carried to term, mean I have to risk my life giving birth (it is a dangerous thing to do, you know, giving birth.) If you can show me that that clump of cells can be removed from its unwilling host and survive - fine. Then YOU carry it and give birth to it. If it can't survive independently it is not in fact a human. Human beings walk around, breathe, eat, laugh, cry... embryos do not.

 

Saying I should have the right to an abortion is NOT the same as saying I should have the right to murder a few of the politicians I would really like to take out. Much as I would love to.

 

I assume you have never found yourself pregnant in impossible circumstances. I have.

 

Edited August 26, 2018 by Fuzzbucket

[AlicornsPrayer]

1 hour ago, Laryal said:

Killing is killing no matter how you look at it.I guess you guys with you line of thinking will cry out  longer an louder if all the world decided that you had to get an abortion even if you did not want it like they do in China.So letts see who will start this cry or outrage couse of my post. See it starts small then it grows to where you have no idea what is right or wrong.Your rights are like ohhh woman have a choice.Well how about a murder he has a choice to kill who every he wants right it is his right to do what he wants is it? so if woman can kill a baby why not allow those who kill kill that way we can get rid of allot more poeple an the world will  have allot less.Oh but murder is wrong killing a baby is not killing a human being you guys  need to learn what is right an wrong but i guess you guy's rights are above those of a baby's who can not speak for themselves so all of us who aree for life do give them a voice.:)

 

 

 

No, it's not a case of "killing is killing" darling. And considering I can understand there's a huge difference between the two being of Jewish descent as well as don't personally believe in abortion? 

Your "comparison" is nothing more then a false comparison trying to insert emotionalism into a rational discussion. Since you don't have an actual reason to say abortion is wrong, other then you don't agree with it? You instead try to use false equivalency to falsely link it to emotional issues of genocide and mass murder. 

 

The facts are is it's a fetus, not a "baby. You keep trying to label it as such, for nothing more then emotionalism over factual discourse. Nobody is "Killing a baby" during an abortion. Killing a baby is killing a born person, not a fetus. Which killing a breathing baby is illegal already due to it's living outside a womb. Until the fetus reaches the stage of gestation where it can live outside of the woman's body? Your trying to label it murder or relate it to genocide is simply not factual and a red herring argument on your own part. When you have to resort to the tactics you're using? You show you actually have nothing to add to an actual discussion other then rhetoric, propaganda, and emotionalism rather then knowledge or facts.

 

Your type of 'discussing' is more suited to Twitter and Facebook that's more for the reactionary type of posts you are making here....Not an actual discussion thread focused on rationality and reason over emotionalist, knee jerk type of posting you favor .... 

[HeatherMarie]

2 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

You really do not seem to understand the difference between a human being and a clump of cells living off a woman's body.

 

I'm not wild about China's system myself - Chinese women should have the right to choose abortion, but not be forced to have one.  But other than that I'm not aware of anywhere in the world that anyone is forced to have an abortion. If you don't want one, don't ever have one. If I wanted one, I would, and I should have that right. The right to remove a parasitic group of cells that cannot survive without leeching nutrients from my body, and which, if carried to term, mean I have to risk my life giving birth (it is a dangerous thing to do, you know, giving birth.) If you can show me that that clump of cells can be removed from its unwilling host and survive - fine. Then YOU carry it and give birth to it. If it can't survive independently it is not in fact a human. Human beings walk around, breathe, eat, laugh, cry... embryos do not.

 

Saying I should have the right to an abortion is NOT the same as saying I should have the right to murder a few of the politicians I would really like to take out. Much as I would love to.

 

I assume you have never found yourself pregnant in impossible circumstances. I have.

 

 

(bolded for emphasis)

 

Yes. This. Exactly. Some people don't seem to understand what pregnancy actually IS. Pregnancy is a parasite, yes a *parasite* (look up the definition please), growing in your body and stealing your nutrients and forcing your body to do things it otherwise wouldn't do. Pregnancy is RISKY, and can and *does* lead to death in many cases. And that's not me trying to argue a side, either, that's simple FACTS. That's what pregnancy is. You can use terms like 'baby' and such to put an emotional spin on it, but that doesn't change what pregnancy actually does to a person's body.

 

It's not some innocent safe thing and people are not choosing abortions because they *want* to 'kill a baby'... I'd bet my life that not one person who has ever had an abortion was motivated by wanting to 'kill'. It really is comparing... fruit to tar, great way to put it. Murder is not in any way the same as ending a medical phenomenon that can *kill* the *woman*. A large number of abortions happen because it's just downright *risky* for the pregnancy to continue; There are complications and things happening in the woman's body that puts both her *and* the fetus at risk, things that have a good chance of killing them *both* during childbirth anyways. There are also abortions that happen because the fetus is deformed or compromised to an extent that it would never survive outside the womb for any actual length of time, or if it did it would be in unbearable pain for the short time it did survive. 

 

There are many reasons abortions happen, and *none* of those reasons involve wanting to kill a baby. That's just not how it goes. Abortions happen because they are *needed*, for many different reasons. And as long as pregnancy involves a parasite taking nutrients away from the mother and harming her and possibly killing her, abortion *needs* to be allowed. (I say 'as long as' because who knows, maybe someday in the distant future science will come up with ways to manipulate pregnancy so that there are no risks like that. But that's not the reality right now.)

[Naughtrish]

Late to the discussion, but here's my two cents.

I am from Argentina, and maybe some of you read in the news that we recently had our Congress debate the abortion law. It got the approval of the lower chamber and got rejected in the Senate. Our laws allow abortion (as in deem it non punishable) in case of rape, risk of the mother's life, be it physical or mental health. 

The people rooting for the rejected law had this slogan: "Sexual education to decide, free contraceptives to avoid abortion, legal abortion to avoid death". (“Educación sexual para decidir, anticonceptivos para no abortar, aborto legal para no morir” in spanish, maybe someone can translate it better than me)

 

Personally, I am pro choice. Even if you do take contraceptives, and are sexually well educated, the contraceptives can fail. In that scenario, I don't see why I should be forced to carry with a pregnancy that I tried by all means available not to happen. FYI, it happened twice to me. And I don't regret my choice. I'm 58 now. with two sons that I love more than anything in the world.

 

I do not agree with "ilimited" abortions paid for the State. I think that after the first, the ones that decided to abort should leave the clinic/doctor with a plethora of knowledge as to avoid another pregnancy. Even maybe with a IUD in place. But as I said before, it might fail. What would you do if a child is raped and got pregnant? Ruin her life making a girl become a mother at 9 yrs old? (happened here) 

 

As being said before, a law legalizing abortion is not going to force people to have one; but it will save the lives of people that go to desperate measures to get rid of something they don't want. It is a public health issue.

 

/gets off soap box

[Laryal]

5 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

You really do not seem to understand the difference between a human being and a clump of cells living off a woman's body.

 

I'm not wild about China's system myself - Chinese women should have the right to choose abortion, but not be forced to have one.  But other than that I'm not aware of anywhere in the world that anyone is forced to have an abortion. If you don't want one, don't ever have one. If I wanted one, I would, and I should have that right. The right to remove a parasitic group of cells that cannot survive without leeching nutrients from my body, and which, if carried to term, mean I have to risk my life giving birth (it is a dangerous thing to do, you know, giving birth.) If you can show me that that clump of cells can be removed from its unwilling host and survive - fine. Then YOU carry it and give birth to it. If it can't survive independently it is not in fact a human. Human beings walk around, breathe, eat, laugh, cry... embryos do not.

 

Saying I should have the right to an abortion is NOT the same as saying I should have the right to murder a few of the politicians I would really like to take out. Much as I would love to.

 

I assume you have never found yourself pregnant in impossible circumstances. I have.

 

This see what i mean the first of the prochoice people shouting louder an hardier.Now your just a clump of cells as well you not made up of anything else right or if so then what?So  you see your mom loved you allot more than you think couse she chose life instead of murder for you. Also why is it it wrong that we have a law staying you have to abort.When you know yourself your going to do it anyway? Also  murder is murder no matter how you look at it.so my statement is the truth i said if that was a law that you pro choice people would shout longer an hardier lol.XD In other words all you prochoicers proved my point lol an to me those who abort are just as bad as those who abuise their kids an kill them aftwards.You want to rip out a living human who has no right in your eyes to live.So  just like a murder who sees some one who he or she deems unfit to live same thing.So all you are doing like i said is proving i am right.:) Also say there was a law passed that you had to have an abortion there are childern out there ytou can adopt.:)

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2018 by Laryal

[AlicornsPrayer]

The simple fact is? Making abortion illegal doesn't lower the number of abortions. It simply means more unsafe abortions are done instead. It's best for society if abortion stays legal and safe, as well as available without the rigorous restrictions. In countries that provide comprehensive and factual sexual education, along with full and complete reproduction health care, and less restrictive abortion laws? They see fewer abortions instead of more, as well as a more productive and efficient and economically sound society. Countries that do the opposite tend to have greater numbers of unwanted pregnancies, as well as more economically stressed societies.

[AlicornsPrayer]

1 hour ago, Laryal said:

This see what i mean the first of the prochoice people shouting louder an hardier.Now your just a clump of cells as well you not made up of anything else right or if so then what?So  you see your mom loved you allot more than you think couse she chose life instead of murder for you. Also why is it it wrong that we have a law staying you have to abort.When you know yourself your going to do it anyway? Also  murder is murder no matter how you look at it.so my statement is the truth i said if that was a law that you pro choice people would shout longer an hardier lol.XD In other words all you prochoicers proved my point lol an to me those who abort are just as bad as those who abuise their kids an kill them aftwards.You want to rip out a living human who has no right in your eyes to live.So  just like a murder who sees some one who he or she deems unfit to live same thing.So all you are doing like i said is proving i am right.:) Also say there was a law passed that you had to have an abortion there are childern out there ytou can adopt.:)

 

 

 

Only one 'shouting' is yourself with over dramatized and false comparisons, as well as misuse of terminology for an emotional impact rather then a rational response....Perhaps if you lost the drama queen posts and phrasing, trying to compare mass murder and murder with the subject of abortion? Then one could have an actual discussion about this topic in a more reasonable manner with yourself....But instead, you'd rather make false comparisons and misuse the terms 'baby' and 'murder' instead....

 

Here's some definitions to help you get on the same page of those more rational and with well thought out responses not based off of emotionalism, unlike yourself. 

 

https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/murder

 

Murder

The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse.

Murder is perhaps the single most serious criminal offense. Depending on the circumstances surrounding the killing, a person who is convicted of murder may be sentenced to many years in prison, a prison sentence with no possibility of Parole, or death.

The precise definition of murder varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Under the Common Law, or law made by courts, murder was the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought. The term malice aforethought did not necessarily mean that the killer planned or premeditated on the killing, or that he or she felt malice toward the victim. Generally, malice aforethought referred to a level of intent or reck-lessness that separated murder from other killings and warranted stiffer punishment.

The definition of murder has evolved over several centuries. Under most modern statutes in the United States, murder comes in four varieties: (1) intentional murder; (2) a killing that resulted from the intent to do serious bodily injury; (3) a killing that resulted from a depraved heart or extreme recklessness; and (4) murder committed by an Accomplice during the commission of, attempt of, or flight from certain felonies.

 

https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=2091

 

Abortion: In medicine, an abortion is the premature exit of the products of conception (the fetus, fetal membranes, and placenta) from the uterus. It is the loss of a pregnancy and does not refer to why that pregnancy was lost.

A spontaneous abortion is the same as a miscarriage. The miscarriage of three or more consecutive pregnancies is termed habitual abortion or recurrent pregnancy loss.

 

https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=3424

Fetus: An unborn offspring, from the embryo stage (the end of the eighth week after conception, when the major structures have formed) until birth.

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/baby

1 a (1) : an extremely young child; especially : infant

(2) : an extremely young animal

 

A fetus that is a result of a wanted pregnancy, may be referred to as a 'baby' by the expectant parents...But as a term or endearment, not legitimate terminology. And in your case, you're using the term solely for emotional appeal, not factual terminology....So lets get on the same page, and lose the drama queen posts you seem so fond of, when you can't refute what's been said rationally or knowledgeably. 

[Laryal]

Still a human life that gets killed murdered so an abortion like you said is getting rid of a human a murder plain an simple you say oabortion like it is not killing a hu8man life or murdering a human life even thought that human is a fetus an i call it like i see it murder an you guys can not take the trurth an you have to twist it around just like everyone else.Ok you pro choicers  you cry murder if the baby is outside the womb but  that same baby was a fesatus before it  was out side the womb.Get your facts staigth killing is killing an you shall not kill. plain an simple so get it thru your thick minds not wanting to listen to the truth that is right murdering is murdering no matter if the baby is inside a woman or outside.  taking a human life is murder or is it ok in one way an not the other then why is it right to murder in one way an  then a person goes to jail couse he or she killed anouther human? you say it is like a miscarrage but a miscarrage is not pulling apart  or salting or sucking a baby out of a womb by a doc so there is your false hood being taken apart any more? Also was  just talking to my friend an she says i am right an says that if thety do not want a child then they should not play hooky pooky .:)

Edited August 27, 2018 by Laryal

[purpledragonclaw]

26 minutes ago, Laryal said:

Still a human life that gets killed murdered so an abortion like you said is getting rid of a human a murder plain an simple you say oabortion like it is not killing a hu8man life or murdering a human life even thought that human is a fetus an i call it like i see it murder an you guys can not take the trurth an you have to twist it around just like everyone else.

 

The slippery slope to calling an abortion murder to thinking that even a miscarriage can lead to murder charges since the miscarriage resulted in the death of the unborn. Miscarriages are natural and happen by accident. Is that worth putting a woman in prison for life for something beyond her control? 

 

29 minutes ago, Laryal said:

Get your facts staigth killing is killing an you shall not kill. 

 

Saying "you shall not kill" sounds like the biblical first commandment, "thou shalt not kill." Is the argument you're using against abortion a religious one?

 

30 minutes ago, Laryal said:

Also was  just talking to my friend an she says i am right an says that if thety do not want a child then they should not play hooky pooky .:)

 

Many pregnancies can happen by accident, despite both parties taking every possible precaution to prevent it. Birth control? It can fail. Condoms? They can fail. IUD? They can fail. So a woman should be doomed to motherhood for taking every possible precaution and getting pregnant anyway? Many pregnancies are also the result of rape. Should victims of rape be forced to carry the child to term if they don't want to? There are a lot of cases to how pregnancy can happen, it's not always about irresponsibility.

[AlicornsPrayer]

55 minutes ago, Laryal said:

Still a human life that gets killed murdered so an abortion like you said is getting rid of a human a murder plain an simple you say oabortion like it is not killing a hu8man life or murdering a human life even thought that human is a fetus an i call it like i see it murder an you guys can not take the trurth an you have to twist it around just like everyone else.Ok you pro choicers  you cry murder if the baby is outside the womb but  that same baby was a fesatus before it  was out side the womb.Get your facts staigth killing is killing an you shall not kill. plain an simple so get it thru your thick minds not wanting to listen to the truth that is right murdering is murdering no matter if the baby is inside a woman or outside.  taking a human life is murder or is it ok in one way an not the other then why is it right to murder in one way an  then a person goes to jail couse he or she killed anouther human? you say it is like a miscarrage but a miscarrage is not pulling apart  or salting or sucking a baby out of a womb by a doc so there is your false hood being taken apart any more? Also was  just talking to my friend an she says i am right an says that if thety do not want a child then they should not play hooky pooky .:)

 

If you can't bother to spell words correctly, then you're showing you have no argument worth considering and actually incapable of holding any rational discussion with by your sloppy writing skills....

 

A pregnancy doesn't always result in a human life. Most pregnancies actually self-abort (miscarry) within the first trimester due to the woman's poor health, improper planting in the uterus, or injury sustained before a woman even knows she's pregnant. All pregnancy is, is a POTENTIAL human life in the making, if the pregnancy progresses properly and in a healthy manner. As has already been explained to you numerous times, most abortions happen well before even a fetus is developed and there is nothing more then a collection of cells in an embryo stage....

And yes darling....A miscarriage is exactly a 'tearing apart' of a fetus, especially those within the first 14 weeks of pregnancy, when most miscarriages happen. The body expels it violently, just like a menstrual flow does, and looks exactly like a woman's period because of the undeveloped fetus' size (about 1 and a half inches). Torn uterus material and blood from that tearing inside caused naturally by the body during an early miscarriage.  

And most abortions aren't the type you are describing either. Most are chemically induced, and look and are experienced exactly like a period is. The type you are describing actually is rarely used (D&E) and are usually for the rare instances of abortions performed late in the 2nd trimester. Even rarer are those done in the 3rd trimester.

Your friend sounds as ill informed as you are about what abortion, miscarriage, and murder actually are....Two ill informed individuals doesn't make either of you right.....Just two ill informed individuals who garner their 'information' from poor research, poor writing and grammar skills, and over emotionalism and exaggerated drama dialog....

As Purpledragonclaw explained to you? Most abortions aren't from the result of irresponsible sex, but after every precaution was taken to prevent a pregnancy but failed, or the woman was raped. But I really don't expect you to even consider that, as your whole argument is to play on the emotions and engage in '**** shaming' anyways, rather then leaving the personal decisions of one's body up to the individual where it belongs.

Something tells me that you don't let others tell you what you can or can't do when it comes to how you want to live your life or pursue your future....Yet in the case of how a woman chooses how to plan her family? You think somehow it's your place to tell her how she should or shouldn't do what she feels is best for herself....And you'll use bullying, scare tactics, emotionally laden wording and false comparisons rather then logic, compassion, or reason. That dear, makes you a hypocrite. Period. 

[Fuzzbucket]

4 hours ago, Laryal said:

Also was  just talking to my friend an she says i am right an says that if they do not want a child then they should not play hooky pooky .:)

 

So married couples should never have sex unless they actively plan for pregnancy ?

Because:

 

3 hours ago, purpledragonclaw said:

Many pregnancies can happen by accident, despite both parties taking every possible precaution to prevent it. Birth control? It can fail. Condoms? They can fail. IUD? They can fail. So a woman should be doomed to motherhood for taking every possible precaution and getting pregnant anyway? Many pregnancies are also the result of rape. Should victims of rape be forced to carry the child to term if they don't want to? There are a lot of cases to how pregnancy can happen, it's not always about irresponsibility.

 

As mine was - contraceptive failure - and I was scrupulously careful. Indeed, as my first actual CHILD was - she too was totally unplanned (though I admit I was not as careful with my BC that day.) but because my situation allowed it, her I kept. If I had been forced to carry the embryo I aborted to term - I would actually have killed myself rather than give birth. The situation was that impossible. Two deaths rather than one. But I guess as I am pro-choice, my death would have been a blessed relief for you, Laryal.

 

For the record, I have no friends who would agree with you. Saying my friend agrees with me cuts no ice.

[Fuzzbucket]

5 hours ago, AlicornsPrayer said:

 

If you can't bother to spell words correctly, then you're showing you have no argument worth considering and actually incapable of holding any rational discussion with by your sloppy writing skills....

 

 

Actually - while I profoundly disagree with Laryal, this site has very many members whose first language isn't English. I do agree that Laryal's posts are hard to read, but her poor writing isn't a valid reason to dismiss her views as not worth considering. I disagree with her on the basis that much of what she says is factually and philosophically wrong, and also that her views appear to be religiously based - and many people don't happen to buy into the Ten Commandments (if that was what she meant earlier) or other religious tenets, not because of her spelling and punctuation. 

 

Though I have to add (because I can) that my father was an Anglican priest and very much pro choice. He actually helped a couple of his parishioners get terminations when it was harder to do than it is today. Humane religious officials see humans who need help, and - help them get what they need. Those who are blinkered by their religion are actually lesser people, in my view, and the exact kind of reason that I turned away from religion in the first place.

[Laryal]

You know what who cares if i spell wrong it is not about a player but abortion  you guys are discussing an like a mod said  earlier in this chat do not attack a player .So move along. i state my opinions but is seems like all that matters is your own opinions an so you attack a player so why are you attacking me for? An Fuzzbucket thanks even though my spelling is sometimes wrong i do speak English an like i said they are attacking me an not  going on about discussing what this chat is really about.Life is a precious thing not just for a chosen few but for every living human being not just me an you.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Laryal

[purpledragonclaw]

Laryal, I am not attacking you. At all. I am responding to your comments with facts. You are not responding to my arguments with any proof to back up your assertions. You are not explaining why you feel abortion is okay in the case of rape or incest. In the case of protection failing. Why there should be no exceptions. 

[HeatherMarie]

2 hours ago, Laryal said:

Life is a precious thing not just for a chosen few but for every living human being not just me an you.

 

Okay, let's run with that then. Life is a precious thing. So, when a *potential* life threatens the *life* of a woman, where do the priorities lie? When an *unborn* fetus will *kill* a woman if carried to term, is that not considered murder of the woman? You can't make blanket statements about all life being precious and all 'killing' being murder and then completely ignore the woman who is carrying that fetus in the first place. What you are saying sounds like all *fetus* life is precious but the *woman's* life doesn't actually matter. And frankly that's not an argument I could ever take seriously. If someone holds the view that *all* life is important, they need to understand that pregnancy can and *does* kill, and terminating a pregnancy which will *kill* the woman otherwise is in fact completely in line with 'life is precious'. But it seems from what you've said that it doesn't matter what happens to the woman as long as that fetus's life is preserved. 

 

(And I'm not even going to touch 'don't have sex if you don't want to get pregnant' because that is a horribly misinformed argument that has absolutely no basis in reality. As others have pointed out there are *many* ways to get pregnant that have nothing to do with being irresponsible or promiscuous or whatever.)

 

Edited August 27, 2018 by HeatherMarie

[Fuzzbucket]

5 hours ago, Laryal said:

You know what who cares if i spell wrong it is not about a player but abortion  you guys are discussing an like a mod said  earlier in this chat do not attack a player .So move along. i state my opinions but is seems like all that matters is your own opinions an so you attack a player so why are you attacking me for? An Fuzzbucket thanks even though my spelling is sometimes wrong i do speak English an like i said they are attacking me an not  going on about discussing what this chat is really about.Life is a precious thing not just for a chosen few but for every living human being not just me an you.

 

4 hours ago, purpledragonclaw said:

Laryal, I am not attacking you. At all. I am responding to your comments with facts. You are not responding to my arguments with any proof to back up your assertions. You are not explaining why you feel abortion is okay in the case of rape or incest. In the case of protection failing. Why there should be no exceptions. 

 

No-one is attacking YOU. We (most of us in this thread) disagree with you. And all you say is that it's WRONG, and that you conflate it with genocide, murder and the rest. You are not addressing the suffering of the pregnant woman with nowhere to go, nowhere to turn. I said before and I will say it again - if I had been forced to carry that embryo to term, I would have killed myself.

 

Quote

is seems like all that matters is your own opinions

 And it seems that all that matters to you is yours and that you have a friend who agrees with you. At least we have raised arguments other than genocide (it isn't) murder (which we believe it isn't) and the Ten Commandments - which don't apply to those who haven't  chosen to follow a religious path.

 

Life is precious. But I would have given mine up like a shot rather than carry that pregnancy to term.  What would you have suggested for someone in that position ? And I wasn't even raped.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Fuzzbucket