Abortion

[Fuzzbucket]

Hm. Maybe she doesn't want a job in the private sector because the perks or pay is better in the public sector? That and/or she likes stirring the pot and getting reactions.

 

Even though I am anti-abortion myself, her actions are irrational. It's apparent that she will never win a case because the job she wants requires her to take part in activities her beliefs won't allow her to take part in. She should move on and seek the other options available to her that allow her to practice without compromise.

I agree. We got the same thing in the UK when same-sex civil marriages became legal, and a few registrars refused to perform them - and lost their jobs. The ONLY one who got anywhere argued that she had taken the job when they weren't a part of it, and they were effectively not in her contract.

 

As I recall they moved her to a different job.

 

If you aren't prepared to do all of a job - don't apply for it. It isn't rocket science.

 

I can see why someone who loves delivering babies would want to practise as a midwife, so i isn't necessarily a stirring thing - but if you can't do ALL of that job, you just have to bite the bullet. She should become a doula, perhaps. That said - some of the more militantly anti abortion, b/c and so on do do these things deliberately to try and get their own way. What really gets to me is - no-one has to have an abortion. You don't believe in it - don't have one. It's a bit like rabid vegetarians who try to say that EVERYONE should be vegetarian. Live by your beliefs - sure - but that doesn't give you (generic !) the right to tell other people whow to live theirs so long as it is within the law.

Edited June 24, 2017 by fuzzbucket

[CatCreature]

Hm. Maybe she doesn't want a job in the private sector because the perks or pay is better in the public sector? That and/or she likes stirring the pot and getting reactions.

Work in private sector usually gives more in salary (don't know about the perks. ^^') no matter what job you have. I took a peek on Google and found that midwives in private sector do indeed get more money.

 

The head lines make it sound like it's about her and her feelings (feeling offended and discriminated against) and not about saving unborn babies. She seems to be fine if someone else handles the contraceptive and abortions as long as she doesn't have to be there. At the same time she does want to be there...

 

She has become a bit of a laughing stock, I'm afraid. People understand why she refuse abortions but not why she demands a job she refuse to do when there are other options.

[Fuzzbucket]

You know - it occurs to me that a long long time ago before all the PC and "human rights" which aren't RIGHTS at all really came about, our local Brownies were desperate for a Brown owl. I volunteered (I had worked with the Guides as a tester for ages, and both my daughters had been through the whole thing.)

 

I was required to agree that I would say the Lord's Prayer along with my troop. I wouldn't, so they didn't take me.

 

And fair enough. I think the same applies to this midwife. But that is NOT to say that she hasn't a right to her views - just not the right to impose them on others, or on her employers. What happens the day she is the only one on call and an abortion is actually necessary (it can happen. Anencephaly is one case where surely NO-ONE could deny the need for abortion ?)

[CatCreature]

And fair enough. I think the same applies to this midwife. But that is NOT to say that she hasn't a right to her views - just not the right to impose them on others, or on her employers. What happens the day she is the only one on call and an abortion is actually necessary (it can happen. Anencephaly is one case where surely NO-ONE could deny the need for abortion ?)

And she wants to impose them not only on her employers but also her patients and co-workers. She's fine with some contraceptives, like the pill but she is against others, like the coil. So what happens the day one of her patients want to switch from the pill to the coil? Or when one of her pregnant patients suffers a miscarriage and have to recieve care? Or if the heart stops beating?

 

She can't just dump her patients onto her co-workers.

[Htt71]

On 6/24/2017 at 11:47 AM, fuzzbucket said:

What really gets to me is - no-one has to have an abortion. You don't believe in it - don't have one. It's a bit like rabid vegetarians who try to say that EVERYONE should be vegetarian. Live by your beliefs - sure - but that doesn't give you (generic !) the right to tell other people whow to live theirs so long as it is within the law.

(Sorry to resurrect a dead thread, but it's what I do best.)

 

The main issue is that unlike your decision to eat meat or not eat meat, people care about the morality of killing other people. Sure, I don't care about the cow that goes into my sandwich, but I do care about what I perceive to be murder. Even if you don't agree that it's murder to kill an unborn child, you have to understand the panic of people who do. Saying you can't understand why people are against abortion and can't be apathetic about it is just silly.

 

 You'd be similarly panicked if there was existing legislature allowing people to go and butcher up their neighbors, but the argument for it would be that if YOU don't personally support the killings you don't have to partake, but you can't stop them because people should be allowed to live within the law.

[CatCreature]

On 2017-08-18 at 9:34 AM, Htt71 said:

 You'd be similarly panicked if there was existing legislature allowing people to go and butcher up their neighbors, but the argument for it would be that if YOU don't personally support the killings you don't have to partake, but you can't stop them because people should be allowed to live within the law.

In US there are laws that give people the right to kill intruders in their home. But they can't kill intruders in their own bodies??

[StormBirdRising]

4 minutes ago, CatCreature said:

In US there are laws that give people the right to kill intruders in their home. But they can't kill intruders in their own bodies??

 

If you think a human baby is an intruder there is a preemptive remedy for that : don't get pregnant if you don't want to have a baby. Simple, common sense solution. It works for me.

[Predat0rs]

I'm Pro-Life myself. *shots fired* I do not agree with abortions, nor ever will to be honest. But being Pro-Life for me also means that I am Pro-Life...for the mother. If the abortion would save the mother's life, then I would support her decision to terminate. Otherwise, I will never support abortions as a whole. Yep, your body, your choice, but that doesn't mean I agree with that choice, nor ever will.

 

My anti-abortion thinking is not based on Religion (I'm Atheist), not based on controlling women, and is not based on anything other than the simple feeling of "compassion" towards the baby. I'm sorry, but abortion makes me sick to my stomach thinking about it. I think babies are so cute and adorable and whenever I hear of one being killed (whether through abuse or murder), I get an instant thought of sadness. And then I think about abortions being a legal way of murdering a baby and it sickens me. I have a beautiful son, and my mother wanted me to kill him because I was 16 and pregnant. I didn't listen to her, thank goodness, and now I have an amazing little toddler running about. I feel sick every time I think about how I would have not had this amazing little guy if my mother had gotten her way. That my little boy would have been nothing more than disposable, rotting flesh...and absolutely nothing now at this point. I look into his eyes and see his beautiful lifeforce and I wonder why anyone would ever kill a baby, breathing or still on the inside. He has no idea that he was an option and was not treated like a human being until he was actually born. He will never know until he gets older and I tell him how the world works. That thinking is not my fault in of itself; I am sorry that I have such strong feelings.

 

I know abortion will never be made illegal, so I have a set of ideas on how to improve the systems as it stands, even though I will still never fully support abortion.

• A way better Sex Education system. Speaking about my own country, The US education system as a whole is crappy, but really important things need to be revamped FIRST I think. Some Sex Ed classes I have taken were basically one week of "This is a vagina and this is a penis.", "God doesn't want you to have sex before marriage.", and the ol' "Abstinence only!" argument. That's not going to prevent unwanted pregnancy in the least bit, nor is it going to bring the number of abortions down. Take myself for example: I became pregnant at 16 because I didn't use preventive measures (I didn't even really know of them) and I was under the assumption that I wouldn't get pregnant on my period...and that was due to the lack of education.
• Easier to obtain resources. Contraceptives for one, whether that be birth control or condoms. This includes making condoms easier to obtain that doesn't require one to go into a hospital and ask for them. They should have free condoms everywhere. And while Grab & Go Condoms sounds catchy, simpler, and easier on people, I oppose that idea simply because someone could just poke holes in condoms for fun and leave them for others to take. There would still be an "asking for" system, but one that isn't as invasive as-is. Other resources like doctor's appointments throughout the entire pregnancy should be cost efficient and, hopefully, free one day (speaking as a US resident again). Also having children at the hospital should not leave a mother with lifetime debt. I think it was nearly 10 grand when I gave birth to my son. It's been 6 years and I still have that bill haunting me. Not to mention that the "prices" keep getting higher as the years go on.
• Child Support and forcing a parent to pay for a child born against their will should not exist and should be made illegal. *shots fired again* Speaking as if the parent paying is the father: If a woman can choose to keep or terminate a child, why should a man not have the same choices presented? Men should not be forced to be a father if they do not want to be a father. Using most pro-abortion people's logic: Sex ≠ consent to parenthood.

I'm sure I have other ideas, but at 5am in the morning with absolutely no sleep, I am not at my best regarding thinking.

 

Overall and ultimately, I do not agree with it, nor will I ever. If one day we are given a ballot in favor of making it illegal, I will vote "YES MAKE IT ILLEGAL". Until then, I keep my opinions to myself unless asked. I do not force my beliefs on others or beg them to keep a baby. I am a pretty relaxed Pro-Lifer. But when that day comes where we are presented with a vote, you damn well know I will express my opinion.

[hazeh]

6 hours ago, StormBirdRising said:

 

If you think a human baby is an intruder there is a preemptive remedy for that : don't get pregnant if you don't want to have a baby. Simple, common sense solution. It works for me.

If only it were that simple. 

Unfortunately, the world is messy and complicated and very few elements of life are ever that straightforward. 

[CatCreature]

7 hours ago, StormBirdRising said:

 

If you think a human baby is an intruder there is a preemptive remedy for that : don't get pregnant if you don't want to have a baby. Simple, common sense solution. It works for me.

It works for 90 to 99%. Imagine one million women on birthcontrol and 1%-10% get pregnant anyway. That's a lot of unwanted pregnancies.

 

Quote

 I have a beautiful son, and my mother wanted me to kill him because I was 16 and pregnant. I didn't listen to her, thank goodness, and now I have an amazing little toddler running about. I feel sick every time I think about how I would have not had this amazing little guy if my mother had gotten her way. That my little boy would have been nothing more than disposable, rotting flesh...and absolutely nothing now at this point. I look into his eyes and see his beautiful lifeforce and I wonder why anyone would ever kill a baby, breathing or still on the inside. He has no idea that he was an option and was not treated like a human being until he was actually born.

Abortion should never be forced upon anyone who doesn't want one.

 

The thing is this: You wanted your son. Not everybody want what's inside of them. You think abortion=killing YOUR baby. Every abortion that occur in the world is NOT about your baby, it's about every women desperate enough to seek one.

 

And you do know that making abortion illegal will not make them go away? It's easy to order abortion pills online and call it a miscarriage. And there will be people performing unsafe back-alley abortions because, as I said, women are desperate enough to seek one.

 

If you still want to think about your baby as an example to ban abortion, think about this: Give your baby to your mother. She didn't want him so forcing her to take care of him wouldn't make her a good parent. So why force others? And, please, don't say the word "adoption" because that has been covered in this thread over and over. Kids in the foster care system are more likely to kill them selves or end up homeless at 18, than to get adopted. (They bounce between homes and have a high risk of getting abused while feeling abandoned and like yesterday's garbage) Giving a child up for adoption is child abuse in my eyes.

[Zeditha]

You have to realise, sometimes the question isn't whether the child dies. It's when they die. And as much as it may hurt to admit it, having a fetus removed is far better than a toddler beaten to death by a parent that didn't want them to be born, or perhaps worse, driven to suicide because of the same.

 

It's sad that abortion has to be a thing. In a perfect world, abortions wouldn't happen. But in a perfect world, sex ed would be fully comprehensive, contraceptives free, and pregnancy care and birth free - everywhere. (They are here in the UK! I myself have an implant and am quite happy with it.)

 

You also have to remember that there is no 100% effective form of contraception. Some are more reliable than others, and some like the implant have near 100% success rates, but the failure rate still exists. I feel safe knowing that I have the implant, but if abortion was illegal, I'd still be terrified and probably would refuse to have sex. Knowing that if it ever comes to it, I can have an abortion, makes me feel safe.

 

I'm going to also note my opinion that forcing someone to not have an abortion would be just as bad as forcing someone to have one. It's about choice and consent.

[HeatherMarie]

On 8/20/2017 at 1:48 AM, StormBirdRising said:

 

If you think a human baby is an intruder there is a preemptive remedy for that : don't get pregnant if you don't want to have a baby. Simple, common sense solution. It works for me.

 

See, that's all fine and dandy, but what about the thousands of women who get pregnant by force, or by accident? If you have sex, there is a chance of getting pregnant, even if you are on the pill and use condoms and do *everything* you can to prevent it. And what about all the women who are raped? They certainly didn't choose to have sex, much less get pregnant. Should they be forced to go through nine months of torture to birth a child that was put there by force?

 

I certainly don't think abortion should be choice to be made lightly, but I completely understand that sometimes it's the best thing to do. So many pro-lifers seem to only care about the unborn fetus, and don't give a crap about what the women carrying it has to go through. Many, many women die each year from pregnancy or birth complications. Many women have diseases that makes carrying a fetus very, very risky. If a women is most likely going to die by carrying that baby, shouldn't she have the choice to terminate it so that she can live?

[StormBirdRising]

5 hours ago, Marie19R said:

 

See, that's all fine and dandy, but what about the thousands of women who get pregnant by force, or by accident? If you have sex, there is a chance of getting pregnant, even if you are on the pill and use condoms and do *everything* you can to prevent it. And what about all the women who are raped? They certainly didn't choose to have sex, much less get pregnant. Should they be forced to go through nine months of torture to birth a child that was put there by force?

 

I certainly don't think abortion should be choice to be made lightly, but I completely understand that sometimes it's the best thing to do. So many pro-lifers seem to only care about the unborn fetus, and don't give a crap about what the women carrying it has to go through. Many, many women die each year from pregnancy or birth complications. Many women have diseases that makes carrying a fetus very, very risky. If a women is most likely going to die by carrying that baby, shouldn't she have the choice to terminate it so that she can live?

 

I addressed only one issue " If you think a human baby is an intruder there is a preemptive remedy for that : don't get pregnant if you don't want to have a baby. Simple, common sense solution. It works for me." I don't mean to be rude, but I honestly don't know what you are talking about. I never mentioned anything about rape, or pro-lifers, or torture, or birth complications, or death and diseases. Why are you asking me if a woman is going to die from carrying a baby shouldn't she have an abortion?  I don't understand where all these horrible things are coming from because I took offense to a human baby being called an intruder. Maybe you were responding to someone else's post?

Edited August 22, 2017 by StormBirdRising

[hazeh]

10 hours ago, StormBirdRising said:

 

I addressed only one issue " If you think a human baby is an intruder there is a preemptive remedy for that : don't get pregnant if you don't want to have a baby. Simple, common sense solution. It works for me." I don't mean to be rude, but I honestly don't know what you are talking about. I never mentioned anything about rape, or pro-lifers, or torture, or birth complications, or death and diseases. Why are you asking me if a woman is going to die from carrying a baby shouldn't she have an abortion?  I don't understand where all these horrible things are coming from because I took offense to a human baby being called an intruder. Maybe you were responding to someone else's post?

I assume it's because those are all valid reasons why someone would consider a fetus an intruder if the fetus was not welcome in the first place. These are such instances how a person would find themselves in that situation and not necessarily have the choice on whether they get pregnant or not. 

[Fuzzbucket]

On 2017-08-20 at 6:22 AM, Metal-n-Monster said:

Overall and ultimately, I do not agree with it, nor will I ever. If one day we are given a ballot in favor of making it illegal, I will vote "YES MAKE IT ILLEGAL". Until then, I keep my opinions to myself unless asked. I do not force my beliefs on others or beg them to keep a baby. I am a pretty relaxed Pro-Lifer. But when that day comes where we are presented with a vote, you damn well know I will express my opinion.

 

I was with you till this point. You do not have the right to tell me what to do with MY body. To force me to carry an unwanted clump of cells till it becomes an unwanted human being.

 

On 2017-08-20 at 4:48 AM, StormBirdRising said:

 

If you think a human baby is an intruder there is a preemptive remedy for that : don't get pregnant if you don't want to have a baby. Simple, common sense solution. It works for me.

 

I'm very happy for you. I had an abortion because of contraceptive failure.  I did my level best not to get pregnant; any baby I had had at that point would have had one hell of a life - and I would probably have killed myself if I'd been told I had to carry it to term anyway (so we'd both have died.) The father (=sperm donor, really...) was not suitable for fatherhood in any way. And there is no way on this earth I would have given up a baby to the adoption system.

 

Your suggestion ? Abstinence for everyone who doesn't want to get pregnant that very day, perhaps ? NEVER going to happen. Reminds me of that old punchline: "And the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh did it FOUR TIMES ?"

 

On 2017-08-20 at 1:39 PM, Zeditha said:

You have to realise, sometimes the question isn't whether the child dies. It's when they die. And as much as it may hurt to admit it, having a fetus removed is far better than a toddler beaten to death by a parent that didn't want them to be born, or perhaps worse, driven to suicide because of the same.

 

It's sad that abortion has to be a thing. In a perfect world, abortions wouldn't happen. But in a perfect world, sex ed would be fully comprehensive, contraceptives free, and pregnancy care and birth free - everywhere. (They are here in the UK! I myself have an implant and am quite happy with it.)

 

You also have to remember that there is no 100% effective form of contraception. Some are more reliable than others, and some like the implant have near 100% success rates, but the failure rate still exists. I feel safe knowing that I have the implant, but if abortion was illegal, I'd still be terrified and probably would refuse to have sex. Knowing that if it ever comes to it, I can have an abortion, makes me feel safe.

 

I'm going to also note my opinion that forcing someone to not have an abortion would be just as bad as forcing someone to have one. It's about choice and consent.

 

Agree 1000%. EXCEPT that in a truly IDEAL world contraception would be 100%. I've actually had a tubal ligation - and even that isn't totally 100%... nor is vasectomy. NOTHING is. Even hysterectomy - vanishingly  small odds, but there has been at least one case of an ectopic pregnancy when there was no womb available... My sister - a doctor - absolutely believes in the doctrine of the flying sperm. And while she uses a silly term, she means it.

Edited August 22, 2017 by fuzzbucket
typo

[CatCreature]

On 2017-08-22 at 6:17 AM, StormBirdRising said:

I don't understand where all these horrible things are coming from because I took offense to a human baby being called an intruder.

Tricky questions:

What is the difference between a guest and an intruder? Both of them are in someone's home.

What is the difference between a lover and a rapist? Both of them are having sex with someone.

What is the difference between a fetus and an unborn child? Both are in someone's uterus.

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

5 hours ago, CatCreature said:

Tricky questions:

What is the difference between a fetus and an unborn child? Both are in someone's uterus.

What is the difference between an embryo and an unborn child? Both are in someone's uterus.

 

Well, for a start, an embryo has no hope of surviving if it is expelled from the womb - whether by abortion or natural miscarriage (at least 25% of pregnancies self-terminate before the embryo becomes a foetus which happens  at about 11 weeks.) It is therefore not a baby, no matter how you try to look at it. The lowest age of viability is 5 1/2 months - and that's pushing it. I have no problem whatever in removing a glob of cells from my body. Anyone who does have a problem with that doesn't have to do it. But neither that glob nor that embryo - are human beings, and it isn't murder, any more than a natural abortion is. You can't murder something that isn't capable of independent life.

[demonicvampiregirl]

On 8/20/2017 at 6:22 AM, Metal-n-Monster said:

Overall and ultimately, I do not agree with it, nor will I ever. If one day we are given a ballot in favor of making it illegal, I will vote "YES MAKE IT ILLEGAL". Until then, I keep my opinions to myself unless asked. I do not force my beliefs on others or beg them to keep a baby. I am a pretty relaxed Pro-Lifer. But when that day comes where we are presented with a vote, you damn well know I will express my opinion.

 

I already hide from the world out of fear I may get hurt, but if this is what happens in the future, I'll find a cave to hide in. Do I want a boyfriend at some point? Over all, no. If it happens it happens. Will I refuse sex until marriage? Bet your butt I will, but things happens as well with or without my control. I will try my best to not become pregnant before marriage and even after, however, should I become pregnant the man in question gets these options: either man up and help out with this child at all times or there will not be a child at all. I refuse to go through having a kid and taking care of it by myself. I do not like the thought of children at all, the reason why is complicated and I will not express it publicly. You can ask in private for all I care.

This may seem cruel and cold but I absolutely refuse to be a single mother and/or be a wife with to a dead beat dad. That is a giant fear of mine along with some other things. So making it illegal will not help, it seems more of a punishment to take it away even if they was trying to prevent it as much as they could. 

[Koroshiya-Ichi]

On 8/21/2017 at 11:17 PM, StormBirdRising said:

 

I don't mean to be rude, but I honestly don't know what you are talking about. I never mentioned anything about rape, or pro-lifers, or torture, or birth complications, or death and diseases. Why are you asking me if a woman is going to die from carrying a baby shouldn't she have an abortion?  I don't understand where all these horrible things are coming from because I took offense to a human baby being called an intruder.

That's exactly the problem: when you oversimplify this issue as you did in your original post, you miss the point of the debate. You HAVE to factor in all those other horrible variables, because life is not ever as simple as "don't get pregnant in the first place if you don't want a baby." I'm glad living by that black-and-white rule has worked out for you so far, but you can't expect that to be the answer for every single person, and there may come a time even in your own life when you could find that outlook shockingly inadequate to address the consequences when something doesn't happen according to what you want or have planned. Unexpected, cruel, weird, improbable, painful, scary things happen to women every single day that may leave them dealing with an unwanted pregnancy. There should be as many options to deal with that unpleasant reality as humanly possible, and safe, legal abortion is one of the most basic, least harmful and least resource-intensive options out there.

[Koroshiya-Ichi]

On 8/20/2017 at 5:22 AM, Metal-n-Monster said:

My anti-abortion thinking is not based on Religion (I'm Atheist), not based on controlling women, and is not based on anything other than the simple feeling of "compassion" towards the baby. I'm sorry, but abortion makes me sick to my stomach thinking about it. I think babies are so cute and adorable and whenever I hear of one being killed (whether through abuse or murder), I get an instant thought of sadness. And then I think about abortions being a legal way of murdering a baby and it sickens me. I have a beautiful son, and my mother wanted me to kill him because I was 16 and pregnant. I didn't listen to her, thank goodness, and now I have an amazing little toddler running about. I feel sick every time I think about how I would have not had this amazing little guy if my mother had gotten her way.

...

Overall and ultimately, I do not agree with it, nor will I ever. If one day we are given a ballot in favor of making it illegal, I will vote "YES MAKE IT ILLEGAL". Until then, I keep my opinions to myself unless asked. I do not force my beliefs on others or beg them to keep a baby. I am a pretty relaxed Pro-Lifer. But when that day comes where we are presented with a vote, you damn well know I will express my opinion.

 

(Sorry for the double post, I couldn't figure out how to quote 2 different users in one post on here anymore...)

 

How is eliminating access to safer, legal, more affordable abortion and making it a crime not forcing your opinion on others? How is it not about controlling women, when outlawing abortion strips away their bodily autonomy? I'm really asking, because I don't see how that is justifiable, especially when paired with your support of increased access to contraceptives and better sex education. Expressing your opinion is one thing, but voting to outlaw and criminalize a medical procedure that gives women greater reproductive choice and quality of life goes far beyond that in my opinion.

 

Also, I'm sincerely glad your son was born to such a loving mother, and that you got to make the choice you wanted and thought was best for you. For others the choice to terminate an unwanted pregnancy may be what's best for them. They should get to decide that for themselves, just as you decided for yourself despite even your own mother thinking differently.

[Fuzzbucket]

7 hours ago, Koroshiya-Ichi said:

 

(Sorry for the double post, I couldn't figure out how to quote 2 different users in one post on here anymore...)

 

How is eliminating access to safer, legal, more affordable abortion and making it a crime not forcing your opinion on others? How is it not about controlling women, when outlawing abortion strips away their bodily autonomy? I'm really asking, because I don't see how that is justifiable, especially when paired with your support of increased access to contraceptives and better sex education. Expressing your opinion is one thing, but voting to outlaw and criminalize a medical procedure that gives women greater reproductive choice and quality of life goes far beyond that in my opinion.

 

Also, I'm sincerely glad your son was born to such a loving mother, and that you got to make the choice you wanted and thought was best for you. For others the choice to terminate an unwanted pregnancy may be what's best for them. They should get to decide that for themselves, just as you decided for yourself despite even your own mother thinking differently.

 

This last, indeed. I'm glad your child has been born to a happy loving mother who wanted it. I can assure you that if I had carried to term, mine would not have been in that lucky situation. However,  the two children I did later raise to adulthood were wanted and had the lives they had at least in part because I had had an abortion of the child I could not have dealt with. Those two well-adjusted adults - one with children of her own - would never have existed if I'd not had the option to abort when I was 19. Very probably, nor would I. (And before anyone says "when it comes to mentioning suicide it's easy to say you would have done, but I bet you wouldn't "- I already had at least one failed but very genuine attempt to my credit.)

 

ETA to Koroshiya-Ichi  -  to multiquote, you use the little plus button next to ":quote"

Edited August 24, 2017 by fuzzbucket

[Cecona]

On 8/20/2017 at 6:22 AM, Metal-n-Monster said:

Child Support and forcing a parent to pay for a child born against their will should not exist and should be made illegal. *shots fired again* Speaking as if the parent paying is the father: If a woman can choose to keep or terminate a child, why should a man not have the same choices presented? Men should not be forced to be a father if they do not want to be a father. Using most pro-abortion people's logic: Sex ≠ consent to parenthood.

 

I know you seem to think you're clever in trying to use pro-choice logic like this, but there is a huge difference in forcing a woman to care for a child she didn't want and forcing a man to take part in caring for a child he didn't want. A man not wanting to be a father doesn't make the child go away the same way a woman making the decision to abort does. And the cost to have an abortion is far, far, far, FAR less than how much it would cost to go through pregnancy, deliver the baby, and raise the child for 18+ years (because there is never a guarantee they will move out when they become an adult)- Not to mention the effort it would take, and strain it would cause too. A man doesn't have to carry the child and risk his life and health to bring it into the world, he doesn't have to be the one to keep the child alive if there is already a mother, he doesn't even have to stay. The least a man like that can do is give a small portion of his paycheck so he can keep living his carefree, child-free life while someone else has to do everything. If the mother decides it's best to not keep it then no one has to pay for years on end, no one has to suffer, no ones life has to be ruined.

[Zeditha]

Sex =/= consent to parenthood, but helping to pay for a child =/= parenthood.

 

The man isn't the one who has to stay and care for the child. That job is almost always given to the woman.

[Daxillionyx]

Quote

Tricky questions:

What is the difference between a guest and an intruder? Both of them are in someone's home.

 

One thing I will never understand is when people (who are, let's be blunt, pro-abortion) compare a fetus to an intruder or parasite. To answer your question, a guest someone whose arrival is prepared for. And intruder is someone whose entrance was not prepared for. If someone breaks into my house, they are an intruder. If someone comes and I have at least an inkling of an idea that they will arrive, they are a guest.

 

The female body, whether the mother is in tune with her menstrual cycle or not, knows when a baby has the chance to come. The body prepares for it (ovulation, thickening of uteren walls, etc). It's more like an expected guest in that regard. The body does not prepare for things like, say, tapeworms. That's a true parasite. A nice place is not prepared for it to stay inside the body, like with a baby, and the body does not prepare a means of food and waste exchange to accommodate the tapeworm, like it does for babies and the placenta. The body is always caught off guard.

A parasite is exactly that. No one, the body nor the woman, prepares for it to come. It's where it is not supposed to be, eating what it's not supposed to.

A fetus is prepared for by the body, or by both the mom and the body, in a special place with special accommodations. It isn't a parasite in that regard, and no one has ever made that comparison make sense to me.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Daxillionyx

[Fuzzbucket]

7 hours ago, Zeditha said:

Sex =/= consent to parenthood, but helping to pay for a child =/= parenthood.

 

The man isn't the one who has to stay and care for the child. That job is almost always given to the woman.

 

To run with some of the logic in this thread - if you don't want to PAY for a child, don't create one. If you aren't prepared to chip in for any consequences of your horniness, don't have sex. But also - don't expect to have any say in whether or not a woman can have an abortion. MOST to the point, no man has to go through pregnancy. No man will ever understand what that's like. Even if a man wants to take on the child full time at the end of it - which some claim that they do - he does not have the right to force a woman to carry to term for him.