Abortion

[Twyro]

I'm also in med college but I just started, so I guess I haven't gotten into this yet. I'm merely stating a point as to what a parasite is by a brief scientific definition.

 

Though I do like the term saprophyte, being pregnant does cause some harm to the mother/host. As shown in the above post. But I guess if you're talking about severe harm, that is indeed rare. And yeah, you have a point, most of the minor ones you kind of have to deal with...if you actually want it that is

 

And yes. This is about abortion. If you want kids and are ready for it, go for it. If not, there's ways to prevent pregnancy. But other than that I agree with everything you've said. You need to be ready for that kind of responsibility. And to actually WANT to be a parent. I'm in no place to tell people what choice to make, if you want kids go ahead, if that's what you want. If they go to loving homes then that's hardly a bad thing. It's when people have kids that they aren't ready for that things get bad. Like financially, you need to provide for basic needs (food, etc). You need patience, and self sacrifice. I mean, waking up every few hours to feed/care for your infant, sacrificing your sleep and care for something else? Yeah, its tough.

But if you truly want kids then this isn't going to be a chore, or misery for you. You'll be happy to do it. Something not everyone could handle or just flat out does not want. That doesn't make them selfish though, they just have something else they want to get out of life.

But anyways I did find your post insightful.

All of this, that you just wrote and posted, is exactly what my point is. I congratulate you on your brave choice to be a doctor someday and admire the decision you have made. You are only at the beginning, and as you make progress through your studies you will see how beautiful it is to learn about the human life and everything about us as beings: anatomy, physiology, immunology, and so much more. It's not an easy college to study and finish someday, but it's a noble and appreciated profession and practicing it is one of the greatest rewards of all. Knowing that you saved a life, helped deliver a life or at least eased somebody's pain. I wish you a beautiful studying experience and a successful career.

I never meant to insult or attack anyone with my statements and I never did, I threw every possible part of my medical knowledge acquired so far as valid arguments just to support my beliefs because I rely on objective reality for my entire life. I can't rely on God for anything because it's not him I interact with, but people. So I rely on what humanity has learned and created. That's why I don't throw the Holy Bible at anyone's face to force someone to agree with me, but I turn to science to make sure that people at least understand proven facts, and how life really works, because no one lives in fantasy and one should accept it.

However, since this is not a topic meant to discuss religious affinities and beliefs, I will no longer speak of it. And since I refuse to let an ordinary book dictate my existence and tell me what to believe in and how to live my life I will never even bother to discuss the topic.

 

@Laryal: Beliefs and opinions are different just like human characters, and saying that someone who disagrees with you has no heart is heartless from your part. As I mentioned before, I rely on my knowledge and everything known to mankind to support my opinion and that doesn't make me cruel or heartless, it makes me realistic and aware of the world I live in, on what is good and what is bad, what can be forgiven and what cannot. I will never know everything about everything, but one thing I know is this: I will live my life my way and I will think with my own head instead of quoting empty words that I don't even understand or impersonate someone else who tried to implant their opinion in me. I never wanted to argue, and I don't want it now either, and I respect other opinions, but if I think that my way of thinking will get me somewhere in life or help me create healthier interactions with people, I will stick to them if I'm sure they'll do me good. Same applies to the topic of abortions which I commented on more than once, and I don't plan to repeat myself. If some people refuse to even try to understand, it's pointless. The fact that someone is pro-choice doesn't mean they're against life. It means that they want to live a life with the freedom to make choices of their own and not be forced to live the way someone on the side tells them to, including whether they would get an abortion or not. Pro-choice doesn't only apply to this topic. Pro-choice applies to someone's entire life.

[Laryal]

I'm also in med college but I just started, so I guess I haven't gotten into this yet. I'm merely stating a point as to what a parasite is by a brief scientific definition.

 

Though I do like the term saprophyte, being pregnant does cause some harm to the mother/host. As shown in the above post. But I guess if you're talking about severe harm, that is indeed rare. And yeah, you have a point, most of the minor ones you kind of have to deal with...if you actually want it that is

 

And yes. This is about abortion. If you want kids and are ready for it, go for it. If not, there's ways to prevent pregnancy. But other than that I agree with everything you've said. You need to be ready for that kind of responsibility. And to actually WANT to be a parent. I'm in no place to tell people what choice to make, if you want kids go ahead, if that's what you want. If they go to loving homes then that's hardly a bad thing. It's when people have kids that they aren't ready for that things get bad. Like financially, you need to provide for basic needs (food, etc). You need patience, and self sacrifice. I mean, waking up every few hours to feed/care for your infant, sacrificing your sleep and care for something else? Yeah, its tough.

But if you truly want kids then this isn't going to be a chore, or misery for you. You'll be happy to do it. Something not everyone could handle or just flat out does not want. That doesn't make them selfish though, they just have something else they want to get out of life.

But anyways I did find your post insightful.

So you want to be a doctor right which is saving peoples lives right? at what point do you not want to save a life then?

[Laryal]

All of this, that you just wrote and posted, is exactly what my point is. I congratulate you on your brave choice to be a doctor someday and admire the decision you have made. You are only at the beginning, and as you make progress through your studies you will see how beautiful it is to learn about the human life and everything about us as beings: anatomy, physiology, immunology, and so much more. It's not an easy college to study and finish someday, but it's a noble and appreciated profession and practicing it is one of the greatest rewards of all. Knowing that you saved a life, helped deliver a life or at least eased somebody's pain. I wish you a beautiful studying experience and a successful career.

I never meant to insult or attack anyone with my statements and I never did, I threw every possible part of my medical knowledge acquired so far as valid arguments just to support my beliefs because I rely on objective reality for my entire life. I can't rely on God for anything because it's not him I interact with, but people. So I rely on what humanity has learned and created. That's why I don't throw the Holy Bible at anyone's face to force someone to agree with me, but I turn to science to make sure that people at least understand proven facts, and how life really works, because no one lives in fantasy and one should accept it.

However, since this is not a topic meant to discuss religious affinities and beliefs, I will no longer speak of it. And since I refuse to let an ordinary book dictate my existence and tell me what to believe in and how to live my life I will never even bother to discuss the topic.

 

@Laryal: Beliefs and opinions are different just like human characters, and saying that someone who disagrees with you has no heart is heartless from your part. As I mentioned before, I rely on my knowledge and everything known to mankind to support my opinion and that doesn't make me cruel or heartless, it makes me realistic and aware of the world I live in, on what is good and what is bad, what can be forgiven and what cannot. I will never know everything about everything, but one thing I know is this: I will live my life my way and I will think with my own head instead of quoting empty words that I don't even understand or impersonate someone else who tried to implant their opinion in me. I never wanted to argue, and I don't want it now either, and I respect other opinions, but if I think that my way of thinking will get me somewhere in life or help me create healthier interactions with people, I will stick to them if I'm sure they'll do me good. Same applies to the topic of abortions which I commented on more than once, and I don't plan to repeat myself. If some people refuse to even try to understand, it's pointless. The fact that someone is pro-choice doesn't mean they're against life. It means that they want to live a life with the freedom to make choices of their own and not be forced to live the way someone on the side tells them to, including whether they would get an abortion or not. Pro-choice doesn't only apply to this topic. Pro-choice applies to someone's entire life.

Asking you the same at one point in life do you save a life then? You should know then what they realy do to unborn babies when they take them out for abortion right? Or have you not studied that part in doctoring? You all keep proving that the link from that guy is right no matter how hard you all try to prove it wrong.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Laryal

[BlitzDrake]

So you want to be a doctor right which is saving peoples lives right? at what point do you not want to save a life then?

So you can ask me questions and expect a response but when I ask you a question two pages back that you left unanswered, regardless of how often I posted it?

Sorry but when you reply to my question first then maybe I'll answer yours.

[Laryal]

So you can ask me questions and expect a response but when I ask you a question two pages back that you left unanswered, regardless of how often I posted it?

Sorry but when you reply to my question first then maybe I'll answer yours.

Like i said before you guys post so fast i could not keep up the last link i said was all my answers to everyone that had a question for me if you read it.

 

 

Posted: Sep 15 2015, 03:16 AM

I have been looking at sites and this link is the best i can find on what i have been trying to tell you all.Like i said i am not to good at explaining but here it is. So read this i hope it helps you to all understand what i have been trying to say all along. so now i rest my case and will no longer post you all have your answer here now.So carry on and thanks for being so Patient with me and my eddited messages.

 

Edited September 15, 2015 by Laryal

[Twyro]

So you want to be a doctor right which is saving peoples lives right? at what point do you not want to save a life then?

Yes, being a doctor considers providing a healthy life for your patient, which not only means saving a life when it's in danger, but also to improve its quality as much as it's possible and in your power / within your range of knowledge. And as far as I noticed, I see that you consider that even the freshly fertilized ovarian cell is a human being.

Let's say that there is a pregnant woman whose pregnancy is risky and might end up killing her because some other things got in the way and made it worse. The mother can't stay alive if the child isn't taken out, so the only way to help her is to end her pregnancy, and the baby isn't developed enough to survive on its own. So, either at least one of them stays alive or they both die. Would you still be against that form of abortion? If there is a chance that the mother stays alive, maybe even have a healthy baby at some point in her life, according to medical ethics the doctors have every right to do whatever it takes to save the mother. If the child had chances to stay alive, the doctors would, without a doubt, focus on helping the baby as well and not just let it die without even trying. If it isn't possible, then I'm sorry, but there was no other way. In that case, nobody killed anybody. A life that could be saved was saved. And no one has the right to judge it.

And don't you worry your pretty little head one bit, I'm a future dentist. And even if I were a doctor I wouldn't be going around killing babies, because that IS a crime. But if I were in a situation where I had more than one life potentially lost I would try my hardest to save at least one. And it would be the mother's. Because doing anything else would be against the sacred principles of medical profession and would get me banned from it, at least.

Edited September 15, 2015 by *Silver Fox*

[Omega Entity]

@Laryal-

 

Perhaps instead of replying rapidfire to everything posted, you could use that time to construct thought-out responses, rather than copy-pasting arguments and links that aren't your own words.

 

You can't demand answers of other people when you refuse to answer questions directed at you, regardless of the excuses.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Omega Entity

[Laryal]

@Laryal-

 

Perhaps instead of replying rapidfire to everything posted, you could use that time to construct thought-out responses, rather than copy-pasting arguments and links that aren't your own words.

 

You can't demand answers of other people when you refuse to answer questions directed at you, regardless of the excuses.

Maybe that is the only way i can point out my theory on it.So if i can not put links up to answer other;s question then is it wrong for all you to do the same? Like i said i can not think straight sometimes and i can not put words down right on what i really want to say.So me putting links to help me answer is wrong? Then i can not post any more on here in other words you are shutting me up then bye then have fun trying to prove that an unborn has no worth.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Laryal

[BlitzDrake]

Yes, being a doctor considers providing a healthy life for your patient, which not only means saving a life when it's in danger, but also to improve its quality as much as it's possible and in your power / within your range of knowledge. And as far as I noticed, I see that you consider that even the freshly fertilized ovarian cell is a human being.

Let's say that there is a pregnant woman whose pregnancy is risky and might end up killing her because some other things got in the way and made it worse. The mother can't stay alive if the child isn't taken out, so the only way to help her is to end her pregnancy, and the baby isn't developed enough to survive on its own. So, either at least one of them stays alive or they both die. Would you still be against that form of abortion? If there is a chance that the mother stays alive, maybe even have a healthy baby at some point in her life, according to medical ethics the doctors have every right to do whatever it takes to save the mother. If the child had chances to stay alive, the doctors would, without a doubt, focus on helping the baby as well and not just let it die without even trying. If it isn't possible, then I'm sorry, but there was no other way. In that case, nobody killed anybody. A life that could be saved was saved. And no one has the right to judge it.

And don't you worry your pretty little head one bit, I'm a future dentist. And even if I were a doctor I wouldn't be going around killing babies, because that IS a crime. But if I were in a situation where I had more than one life potentially lost I would try my hardest to save at least one. And it would be the mother's. Because doing anything else would be against the sacred principles of medical profession and would get me banned from it, at least.

^this.Silver phrased it better (and faster than I could)

 

Also Laryal then that tells me you're not reading what we're saying much at all. Youre picking key words out and focusing on that. Because you did not answer my question.

Ultimately it's not just a voice. It's an oppressive voice. One that doesn't take into consideration what the woman as an individual wants or needs. It's not about the woman. You could care less about the woman just as long as the fetus gets to live. It's her body. Not yours. Her choice she has to live with. Not yours. It's her business. Not YOURS

If prochoicers are heartless than its an abomination to make women give birth if they don't want to, if they don't kill themselves have mental trauma. Then to probably throw it in the god awful adoption system, or the child is raised inadequately or abused because the mother was forced to do something she didn't want.

 

Also

 

Firstly, I'm not an abortion doctor.

But if you want to know the procedures here you go http://americanpregnancy.org/unplanned-pre...ion-procedures/

 

I posted my question three times and here it is again

What should be done with women who have abortions? Since its murder yes?

Edited September 15, 2015 by BlightWyvern

[Laryal]

^this.Silver phrased it better (and faster than I could)

 

Also Laryal then that tells me you're not reading what we're saying much at all. Youre picking key words out and focusing on that.

 

I posted my question three times and here it is again

What should be done with women who have abortions? Since its murder yes?

Please read this i said my answers to all your questions was in my link as i quat.

 

Posted: Sep 15 2015, 03:16 AM

I have been looking at sites and this link is the best i can find on what i have been trying to tell you all.Like i said i am not to good at explaining but here it is. So read this i hope it helps you to all understand what i have been trying to say all along. so now i rest my case and will no longer post you all have your answer here now.So carry on and thanks for being so Patient with me and my eddited messages.

 

you all have your answer here now.So carry on and thanks for being so Patient with me and my eddited messages.

 

So now i will not post no more becouse my links which i try to answer all your questions at me ment nothing.So please do not post any more stuff to me for i will not answer no more.It seems that some of you do not like me linking becouse i can not put words right and those links i try to help me answer. I do have cerebral palsy and that makes me not able to think or put words down right is all.So i tried links.But you you guys put me down for that so like i said this is my very last post if you have a question do not direct it at me at all for i will not answer no more have a nice day.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Laryal

[BlitzDrake]

If i had the means yes there are places out there that will help mothers to be to help take care of their unborn baby.

Exactly. If you HAD the means. You don't and neither do a lot of people that wish they could help somehow, or take in every orphan.

 

So instead of wishfully hoping you could, why do you want to add even more to the adoption system if abortion was banned? Beings all they would be doing was suffer. But way more than what we have now

 

 

 

And that link told me nothing of how YOU feel. It's a link. It's not your words even if you say they are.

So how about this then, in simpler terms

 

Should she

Have capital punishment

Life in prison

Or just pray for her?

Edited September 15, 2015 by BlightWyvern

[Kith]

Please read this i said my answers to all your questions was in my link

I read it, and I find it to have an enormous flaw: it considers the life of the parent less valuable than the life of the embryo/fetus if the two should ever come into conflict.

[Twyro]

I wish this topic didn't turn into a battlefield between people who have different opinions, but sadly it got out of hand. One part is overly aggressive and I don't want to be like that so I won't argue any more. I will end my participation in this topic by saying: my attitude on this is that I'm pro-choice. I gave my reasons, sometimes even more than once, and that's all that's relevant at this point. This isn't a topic where people who disagree on abortion throw bombs at each other until someone with at least an ounce of common sense bursts in and ends it with a serious warning. And I hope it doesn't go any further from here.

I believe that we are all capable of expressing our opinions as civilized human beings without implicit insults that later escalate into a real dispute. Every opinion is appreciated as long as it's nicely formulated with a civilized language. Peace, people.

[CatCreature]

Wrong again my ancestor never were animals at all and i am not an ANIMAL do not say that i am at all again.

You do know that an embryo has gills and a tail right?

 

Edited September 15, 2015 by CatCreature

[Kith]

To clarify my last statement... If two lives are of equal intrinsic value, then the course of action to resolve the conflict must be considered in context.

 

For example, if too many embryos implant in a uterus, the decision must be made as to whether any will be removed and if so, which ones. A similar decision must also be made in the rarer cases of conjoined twins, whether to surgically separate them, and if so, how. Often, the decision is made to sacrifice a less well-placed embryo or the weaker of the two twins in order to give the other(s) a better chance at survival. Of course, the parent(s) can choose to do nothing and let nature or their chosen deity "decide," and as a result the outcome is anywhere between all survive and all are lost.

 

While objectively, the best outcome is the one in which the most equally-valued lives survive, that may or may not match the subjective determination of the parent(s). Even so, they're the ones who should be making the decision.

[DragonNighthowler]

or a semi-illiterate with zero understanding of basic scientific laws,

You can't take the part of science that you like while ignoring the rest. It doesn't work like that. It's either all or nothing.

 

At this point of the debate is clear to me that you're only thinking about the fetus. Why don't you take some time off the computer, try to empathize with those women without raging about "murder". Maybe you'll be able to understand their motives before condemning them.

 

As for the whole stuff with murder, just like SilverFox pointed out about the difference between an embryo and a fetus, it is NOT the same. Murder is one thing. Euthanasia and abortion are totally different things. The pro-birth propaganda keeps using strong words to raise emotions, but the hard, cold truth is that abortion and euthanasia are not murders. And stop avoiding my arguments. Killing in self defense is the same as killing for pleasure? Really?

Edited September 15, 2015 by DragonNighthowler

[Obscure_Trash]

Debate the topic, not the user. There is absolutely no reason for snippy or sarcastic comments directed specifically at another user.

 

Also do keep in mine that only one person needs to state an argument. It is very difficult to reply to a topic when half a dozen people have all piled on your comment saying the sane thing. So make sure if you're commenting to bring something new to the table, ^^

[Lady Artemis]

Human life IS insignificant. As of January 1, 2015, there were 7,214,958,996 people on the planet earth. People are reproducing faster than they are dying due to modern medicine.

Up-to-date figures on deaths, births.

We NEED population control. We need condoms passed around like candy, we need all teens able to get pregnant on birth control, we need all unplanned/unwanted/complicated pregnancies to be terminated (by carriers will). And most certainly we need abortions to be SAFE AND LEGAL! Our population is growing way, way too much for our world to handle and it's just a matter of time before we destroy ourselves. Humans are amazing creatures, and it's absolutely mind-boggling to think about all the progress we have made in just the last 50 years ALONE, but we still have not adapted to the dropping rate of death. We are still reproducing just as we always have. We are running out of living space to hold the growing amount of people.

 

All in all, I wholeheartedly do not bat an eye at abortions. I have no hesitations at the thought of terminating an embryo. It needs to be done, there are TOO MANY PEOPLE. But as I said, there ARE ways of preventing these pregnancies from even happening! Condoms should not be taboo for teens! Teens have sex, whether you like it or not, and if they're unable to get their hands on contraceptives they will STILL HAVE SEX. They will still get pregnant and they will still birth babies. What I'm pushing for most is free birth control pills for all teens over the age of 13 who are able to be impregnated. Pass out condoms to everyone. Seriously.

[High Lord November]

Laryal, here is my answer your question on how I can't consider a fetus or embryo equal to a full individual person. I hope you can see where I'm coming from, even if you don't fully agree.

 

 

If we met an alien race who were sentient, I would consider them people. If my dog suddenly had the intelligence and individuality of a human being, I would consider her a person.

 

If a person were born with the intelligence and sentience of a beetle, I wouldn't be able to call them a person, even if they were of human composition. If a human were born braindead, I would not be able to consider it a person.

 

 

 

So the composition doesn't matter, but the content inside the being is what matters, as well as individuality. A baby may not have intelligence right off the bat, but it is its own individual, and has the capability to start learning (a baby can survive as an individual, it doesn't need to be hooked up to something 24/7 to survive). A fetus or embryo is *not* an individual (I can't take it out of the womb and have it survive, it needs to be directly hooked up to the mother's body) and does not even have the capability to be sentient or intelligent or a person. Ergo I do not consider removing something like that early on to be the murder of a person, because it isn't a person based on my definition.

 

 

You don't need to reply if you find it overwhelming but I hope that addresses your point as to what other views exist.

[Kestra15]

Yes, being a doctor considers providing a healthy life for your patient, which not only means saving a life when it's in danger, but also to improve its quality as much as it's possible and in your power / within your range of knowledge. And as far as I noticed, I see that you consider that even the freshly fertilized ovarian cell is a human being.

Furthermore, we also have to make the decision when a life is worth preserving, and when it is time to let Death take it's course.

 

Prime example; my grandmother, who passed away last month. Massive midbrain hemorrhage meant she was left with only basic brain function, and in the process ended up swallowing her own vomit leading to bilateral mass chest pneumonia. Although normally a health individual with only some mild hypertension, the decision was made that she should be end-of-life care. Physically she could have survived; her brain could carry out basic biological commands of breath, beat heart, process nutrients, and we could have resolved her chest infection. But my Nana, the person that made it more than a biological processing plant, was essentially gone. To keep her alive would have been cruel to her and to us, as she had no quality of life. Thus all treatment (even IV fluids) were withdrawn, and she died within 60hrs of admission. Thankfully.

 

A lot of people think the medical profession is there to extend life indefinitely, while others think that they exist only for the paycheque. Yes, sometimes we have to act as judge and jury, but what drives it is not such extrinsic factors but instead the question "is it fair for someone to live that life?" The patient, where possible, will make that decision, but for those who cannot talk we must act as advocates and represent their best interests.

 

So for the unborn fetus and the very much alive mother, it will always present a moral dilemma. Weighing actuality against potential, the real cost versus the perceived effects. For me it is a simple call; the mother comes first. In texts on emergency care the life of the mother is always preserved ahead of the child, because of simple biology; if we can't keep the mother alive, the child will die. As noted a few pages back even an emergency Caeseran will generally only be undertaken if the mother will survive the procedure - in rare cases where it is accepted the mother will be lost either way, a Caeseran can then be performed to preserve the life of the fetus. But the mother will always come first, unless she has specified otherwise.

[philpot123]

So for the unborn fetus and the very much alive mother, it will always present a moral dilemma. Weighing actuality against potential, the real cost versus the perceived effects. For me it is a simple call; the mother comes first. In texts on emergency care the life of the mother is always preserved ahead of the child, because of simple biology; if we can't keep the mother alive, the child will die. As noted a few pages back even an emergency Caeseran will generally only be undertaken if the mother will survive the procedure - in rare cases where it is accepted the mother will be lost either way, a Caeseran can then be performed to preserve the life of the fetus. But the mother will always come first, unless she has specified otherwise.

But there is a clear difference between the sort of triage you are describing and setting out to kill someone, right? Choosing to prioritize the care of one patient over another in an emergency situation is not saying the other life isn't worth preserving, it's that this life is the more likely to be saved of the two, so a difficult decision must be made. The difference is intent. So yes, it is a mistake to say that the life of the child in the womb is "worth more" than the life of the mother, but it is also a mistake to say that the child in the womb is not a life worth preserving.

[Twyro]

But there is a clear difference between the sort of triage you are describing and setting out to kill someone, right? Choosing to prioritize the care of one patient over another in an emergency situation is not saying the other life isn't worth preserving, it's that this life is the more likely to be saved of the two, so a difficult decision must be made. The difference is intent. So yes, it is a mistake to say that the life of the child in the womb is "worth more" than the life of the mother, but it is also a mistake to say that the child in the womb is not a life worth preserving.

Every life is worth saving, every life is precious, but not every life has the same odds to be saved. It's better to at least save the ones that have a better chance than to argue until every life is lost. Then you have done nothing.

[Riverwillows]

Having an abortion is a very personal decision to make, and NO ONE has the right to judge another. You cannot know what led up to her decision to have one. Until you understand her journey, you cannot judge her. You are not God.

 

Sometimes, women don't really have any other option. And that's all I will say on it.

[JavaTigress]

A Someone on here... I forget who...said that there was a difference between 'pro-life' and 'pro-birth'.

This article I was reading states the difference pretty well, I think.

 

Thought I would share. CLICKY

( A fellow Christian's take on the thing that I thought was super good)

Edited September 21, 2015 by Silverswift

[Fuzzbucket]

A Someone on here... I forget who...said that there was a difference between 'pro-life' and 'pro-birth'.

This article I was reading states the difference pretty well, I think.

 

Thought I would share. CLICKY

( A fellow Christian's take on the thing that I thought was super good)

Super good indeed. Thanks for posting it.