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Anyone's thoughts on the Planned Parenthood videos?

 

I mean, regardless of how you feel about abortion itself... it seems to me that SELLING for research, particularly IF they are giving out BC as well,represents a conflict of interests.

Are you talking about the badly-cut, anti-choice propaganda video that misrepresented what was happening or the real interview?

 

http://mediamattersforamerica.tumblr.com/p...ve-attack-on-an

 

This is from a USA Today article about what fetal tissue is used for in research:

 

What is fetal tissue used for?

 

Tissue from elective abortions and miscarriages is used for a wide variety of purposes. Scientists who want to regenerate organs and tissues may use it to learn how the human body makes them in the first place. Others look for defects in early development that can cause disease or miscarriage, or study normal development, which can guide therapeutic strategies. The tissue is also used to learn how medicines or toxins affect a fetus.

 

What diseases are being studied today?

 

AIDS and muscular dystrophy, for example. Some experimental treatments for spinal cord injury and macular degeneration involve transplanting fetal cells into patients. And European researchers recently began a study of putting fetal tissue into patients' brains to treat Parkinson's disease, a strategy that has had mixed results in the past.

 

Does the woman have to agree to using the tissue for research?

 

Yes, she has to give consent. And the matter can't be raised until after she has decided to have an abortion.

 

Can't researchers just use stem cells instead?

 

Stem cells, including those obtained with adult donors, can develop into a variety of tissues in the lab. The European researchers in the Parkinson's study and others hope to learn enough to use them someday for transplant tissue. Experts say stem cells have already substituted for fetal tissue for some purposes, but that scientists still need fetal tissue to learn basic information about how organs form, or help them simulate certain diseases in the test tube.

 

I've absolutely no problem with PP doing what they are doing. The patients give consent, the research is extremely useful, and PP is non-profit just working on ways to make sure they can continue to provide care to patients.

 

I am against abortion in all but cases of rape, a danger to the health of the mother or something wrong with the fetus.

 

So what is your plan for determining who has been raped so that they may have an abortion?

 

Many people are in situations where they do not feel safe enough to come out as being raped (ex. domestic abuse - they know that there is a large chance of being murdered if they try to escape; people denied an abortion are less likely to leave an abusive situation because now they have their own lives and the life of a child to get out). Many are not ready to admit they are raped. People who are raped who talk about it are often not believed or even disowned by family and friends. Police try to talk people out of reporting rape. It's not easy to tell people you have been raped.

 

Demanding proof of rape is only going to put unnecessary pressure on and harasses rape victims/survivors.

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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Are you talking about the badly-cut, anti-choice propaganda video that misrepresented what was happening or the real interview?

 

http://mediamattersforamerica.tumblr.com/p...ve-attack-on-an

 

This is from a USA Today article about what fetal tissue is used for in research:

 

 

 

I've absolutely no problem with PP doing what they are doing. The patients give consent, the research is extremely useful, and PP is non-profit just working on ways to make sure they can continue to provide care to patients.

You may well be referring to the same videos I am... I watched some of them ( Admittedly not all). Just to see...

 

Are there any UN-'cut'versions of the video available? Just curious.

 

I have heard the claim that, in some cases it is done WITHOUT consent.

I am not sure how much truth there is in that claim, though.

 

On an unrelated note, though... wouldn't a child make someone MORE eager to get out of an abusive relationship rather than less... seeing as IF they would abuse you, wouldn't they likely abuse the child as well?

( Again, that might depend on how bad the situation actually was).

Edited by Silverswift

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You may well be referring to the same videos I am... I watched some of them ( Admittedly not all). Just to see...

 

Are there any UN-'cut'versions of the video available? Just curious.

 

I have heard the claim that, in some cases it is done WITHOUT consent.

I am not sure how much truth there is in that claim, though.

 

On an unrelated note, though... wouldn't a child make someone MORE eager to get out of an abusive relationship rather than less... seeing as IF they would abuse you, wouldn't they likely abuse the child as well?

( Again, that might depend on how bad the situation actually was).

More likely they would fear for the child if they got away - in case the guy came after them... THAT kind of guy would use the child against the mother.

 

I'm 100% with PP on this one.

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On an unrelated note, though... wouldn't a child make someone MORE eager to get out of an abusive relationship rather than less... seeing as IF they would abuse you, wouldn't they likely abuse the child as well?

( Again, that might depend on how bad the situation actually was).

Nope. Often they are threatened with death if they even attempt to leave. Imagine having to not only look over your shoulder your whole life, but your child's as well - if you do even manage to make it out alive. Not to mention having to support your pregnancy and your child completely by yourself when chances are, you've been dependent either in two paychecks or just your abusers to get by. You have no one to run (isolation by the abuser is an extremely common abuse tactic) to and therefore nowhere to go. The bank account is probably in the abusers name, so you've little chance to secrectly save up money or get money out - you leave and you are leaving behind all that financial safety net. There are sooooooo many risks to leaving an abusive situation and we haven't even talked about how abuse is literally a disease - going through it changes you. These are risks that many abused people never have the chance to take, never work themselves up to taking. Throw in a child they are now responsible for? Ouch.

Which is why some in abusive relationships may go for an abortion - because they know the child will be hurt if it is born. Not to mention their own mental health and readiness for a child.

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On an unrelated note, though... wouldn't a child make someone MORE eager to get out of an abusive relationship rather than less... seeing as IF they would abuse you, wouldn't they likely abuse the child as well?
What sock said - a child will make escaping so much more complicated.

 

What Sock didn't mention much, is the legal side. It may mean courts will have to be involved in case the other side protests their child being taken away, in which case it's going through the justice system and either managing to prove the abuse or setting a homeless, incomeless person against one with a house *and* stable income. And proving abuse is not always easy (especially since sadly, there are also people who lie about things like that to get what they want).

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On my phone, so can't quote.

 

On the vids, PP isn't selling the tissue - the lady specific states that the money covers the cost of preparation and transport of the tissue. No profit is made. But many of those vids purposely cut out that last part, making it sound like they're turning a profit on it.

Edited by Omega Entity

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Hmm, I'm probably late to the party on this one, but I'm going to throw in my 2 cents anyway.

No person goes out there and says "I feel like getting an abortion today". No one *wants* to do it. It's a necessity, which often leads to guilt and shame (due in no small part to cultural attitudes). No one wants to get cancer operated on, either. They'd rather just not have the cancer! But when you need it done, you need it done. If abortion weren't safe and legally done by doctors, it would be done in back alleys with clothes hangers by people who've never been within ten miles of a medical school. That's why I think it should be legal and safe for everyone who needs it regardless of whatever the reason might be. Abortion being outlawed wouldn't result in no more abortions; it would result in unsafe abortions being done in back alleys. When pregnant people are desperate, it results in situations like the whole Kermit Gosnell incident. Abortion is a needed medical procedure and is no more immoral than someone getting a tumor removed.

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well whatever happened to the foetus with the clinic, is not my concern. if they use it for whatever research is needed, they are welcome to it. There is a lot to be learned from such material.

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Why ?

 

Of course, as a man, you aren't likely to have to make that decision, so I guess it matters less to you.

 

Mental health of the mother counts too, and that is something that many anti-abortionists cannot seem to understand.

 

TOTALLY pro choice here.

If you must know, my half brother was aborted and not carried to term. He was healthy, mom was healthy. She just couldn't be inconvenienced in having another child. I often wonder about my half-brother and the man that he could have been. I wonder if we would have gotten along. Mostly I wonder what it would have been like to have a brother.

 

But I guess, as a man that matters less.

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I don't think your opinion matters less, but you aren't taking into account the wider range of reasons females choose abortion and as a result it makes it seem like you care less about why they made that decision.

 

Medical and sexual assault are reasons abortion is chosen, but it is also extremely important to consider the living situation of the mother. If someone is pregnant and living in poverty on the edge of homelessness and they make the decision not to bring a child into that, why is that reason less okay than aborting due to sexual assault?

 

It's not just medical and sexual assault reasons that are important when deciding to keep or abort a pregnancy, and saying 'it's only okay for x, x, and x reasons' disregards any kind of life circumstances of the persons who would be involved with raising it.

 

It may seem flippant or cruel to you for someone to choose abortion for non-medical, non-sexual-assault reasons, but it seems flippant and cruel to me to force someone poor and on the edge of homelessness to give birth simply because both are currently healthy and capable of survival.

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Gruff, may I ask if there were some mitigating circumstances that led your mother to make her choice? Not that it matters, but perhaps you might think on what her situation was at the time she conceived. Most women have (what most would consider) good reason to decide to abort - indeed, few women are so careless as to use the procedure as a means of normal birth control. It is by no means a pleasant experience, be it via out-patient procedure or chemically-induced, and isn't a decision the vast majority take lightly.

 

Frankly, if by some fluke I did become pregnant (you kind of need another person to make that happen, lol), I really don't feel I could handle it. I have major clinical anxiety and depression, and I would have to discontinue taking the medications that make life bearable for me to live, let alone that I have no desire to reproduce whatsoever. In my case it'd be self-preservation if I did decide to get one.

Edited by Omega Entity

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There is absolutely no way I would carry to term if I got pregnant. I can't even imagine how much dysphoria that would cause me. It'd be me or the fetus... I choose me.

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If you must know, my half brother was aborted and not carried to term. He was healthy, mom was healthy. She just couldn't be inconvenienced in having another child. I often wonder about my half-brother and the man that he could have been. I wonder if we would have gotten along. Mostly I wonder what it would have been like to have a brother.

Well, there is the major surgery at two days in order to repair the imperforate rectum, but that was fairly routine. It was the repair to the ventricular septal defect that nearly killed him a month later. Sadly between that surgery and the pre-existing congenital heart defects there was some neurological damage, which when combined with the effects of Down syndrome means that there would be severe mental limitations should he survive to adulthood. However the continued collapses due to Fallot's tetralogy meant that the brain damage became so severe that he slipped into a permanent vegetative state within four months. The cost of keeping him on life support was so much that, before he was even six months old, he was removed from life support.

 

So having a brother would be six very stress-filled months full of false hope, unfathomable hospital visits, and if you are in the US a debt that will hang over your family for years on end, with only a sad funeral and a couple of depressing months to show for it.

 

---

 

This bought to you by someone who was supposed to have two little sisters, not one, and who should have two nieces, not one. So I do understand what you mean by wondering 'what if,' but the problem is we romantacise the 'what ifs' quite a lot and never consider that more negatives. We think we'd have another cool little brother or sister who would look up to us and respect us, have awesome times together with, etc, etc. But we never consider the negative possibilities. There's a a 1/1000 risk your brother could have had Down Syndrome, and could therefore have ended up with the above scenario - admittedly it's a worst-case scenario, but it happens to families. 289,000 women died of childbirth in 2013, so there's the possibility. Perhaps you're being a bit harsh on your mum; you could be well below the poverty line without the luxury of a computer connecting you to the DC forum, because you can barely afford three meals a day now there's an extra mouth to feed.

 

What if your brother grew up to be the abuser in a relationship, the drug-taker, the alcoholic, the child-molester, the thief...doesn't matter how you you turned out, siblings raised in the same household can turn out vastly differently as my own siblings have proven.

 

As guys we do get an opinion, and I would like to think we get some say. If my partner called me and told me she was pregnant with our child, I would let her know what I think and whether I believe we can support the child, and ultimately I would tell her whether I would rather we carried to term, or terminated. I would hope she'd listen to my concerns and take them into consideration, but ultimately the choice would be hers and I would stand by it even if it ran contra to what I wanted. I don't have to live with the physiological implications of child-bearing, it's not my life that is at risk, it's not me who will have months or years of damage done to my body if anything goes slightly wrong, so while I think I deserve to have my opinion heard (since we are a steady, long-term relationship with inter-dependability and respect for each other) I would not expect to have the final say. I do know I'd stand by her decision regardless, even if it meant raising a child that, at this point in time, I don't want to raise. It would still be my child, my responsibility - and I would probably fall in love with them anyway.

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If you must know, my half brother was aborted and not carried to term. He was healthy, mom was healthy. She just couldn't be inconvenienced in having another child. I often wonder about my half-brother and the man that he could have been. I wonder if we would have gotten along. Mostly I wonder what it would have been like to have a brother.

 

But I guess, as a man that matters less.

I am sorry about that - but it was still your mother's choice - and who knows what might have happened to your mother if she had carried to term ? She may well have had information you didn't.

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Imagine growing up knowing that you were unwanted. Imagine being snapped at every time you wanted help or comfort. Imagine knowing your parent(s) consider you annoying and a burden, not beloved. Imagine being that one thing which meant your parents couldn't afford anything they or your older sibling wanted. Imagine being the one "because" of whom your mother is dead. The lives of unwanted children tend not to be too nice.

 

She may well have had information you didn't.
Also this. Depending on your age, parents may opt not to tell their children everything.

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Abortion should /never ever/ be left in the hands of male politicians because they no /nothing/ about how the women getting an abortion feels. Abortion I believe in full-heartedly and it should always, and /only/ be the mother's decision.

 

Pro-choice forever.

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More likely they would fear for the child if they got away - in case the guy came after them... THAT kind of guy would use the child against the mother.

 

I'm 100% with PP on this one.

And don't get me wrong, I do get that concern.

 

Surely the woman in said scenario though would have SOME recourse to protection from the law IF she had legitimate reason to believe that her life was in danger? like in the case Sockie mentioned( Admittedly not fool proof, and probably a risk to try to get, but still) Perhaps that, in part at least, falls into the catagory of 'it changes you'.I guess I personally have a hard time imagining STAYING in a situation like that even IF getting out wouldn't be easy or even necessarily safe... it strikes me that staying where you were wouldn't necessarily be safe either.

 

I guess the lesson here is to try to avoid getting yourself into that sort of relationship in the first place.( Admittedly initially it might be harder to see, but I would THINK there would be red flags even then) because it pretty much is a no-win.

 

Sorry,off topic. :/

 

As for the question of the tissue being used for research it makes me wonder... how widely used is it? What kind of research?

That part was,so far as I could tell,never REALLY explained.

 

I mean... IF there is no profit in it, then why do it,KNOWING how some people will see it?

 

I mean, to be honest.... whether it is for profit or not, I find the idea of research using fetal parts sort of ... creepy.

Edited by Silverswift

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And don't get me wrong, I do get that concern.

 

Surely the woman in said scenario though would have SOME recourse to protection from the law IF she had legitimate reason to believe that her life was in danger? like in the case Sockie mentioned( Admittedly not fool proof, and probably a risk to try to get, but still) Perhaps that, in part at least, falls into the catagory of 'it changes you'.I guess I personally have a hard time imagining STAYING in a situation like that even IF getting out wouldn't be easy or even necessarily safe... it strikes me that staying where you were wouldn't necessarily be safe either.

Yeah ? There are COUNTLESS examples - in the UK and the US that I know of and no doubt elsewhere - where the cops were either powerless or simply did nothing when a woman turned to them for help. Cases where the man tracked the woman to a "safe" shelter and shot her.

I guess the lesson here is to try to avoid getting yourself into that sort of relationship in the first place.( Admittedly initially it might be harder to see, but I would THINK there would be red flags even then) because it pretty much is a no-win.

I know a very sane and sensible girl who got into an apparently ideal relationship. She was lucky; she phoned me, very unhappy, and not having been hit, just controlled, one night when the guy had gone out and what she said put up red flags for me; my own daughter was in the same city and I sent her straight round there to take the girl to her place. She still wasn't at all sure there was a problem, but I can be very persuasive. The next thing was he tracked her down and started throwing bricks through the windows; they took out a restraining order and then his mother tried to sue the two girls for false arrest and god knows what....

 

And until that point he seemed like such a nice chap....

 

As for the question of the tissue being used for research it makes me wonder... how widely used is it? What kind of research?

That part was,so far as I could tell,never REALLY explained.

 

I mean... IF there is no profit in it, then why do it,KNOWING how some people will see it?

 

I mean, to be honest.... whether it is for profit or not, I find the idea of research using fetal parts sort of ... creepy.

A lot of medical research sounds creepy. But a lot of those creepy things have done wonders in treating sick people. Stem cells for instance. Sounds gross - but there are people with cancer, CNS, Parkinson's disease and liver disorders who would be dead if that research hadn't been done. Fetal tissue will offer the same kind of hope for people with other illnesses.

Edited by fuzzbucket

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Yeah ? There are COUNTESS examples - in the UK and the US that I know of and no doubt elsewhere - where the cops were either powerless or simply did nothing when a woman turned to them for help. Cases where the man tracked the woman to a "safe" shelter and shot her.

 

A lot of medical research sounds creepy. But a lot of those creepy things have done wonders in treating sick people. Stem cells for instance. Sounds gross - but there are people with cancer, CNS, Parkinson's disease and liver disorders who would be dead if that research hadn't been done. Fetal tissue will offer the same kind of hope for people with other illnesses.

NOTHING!!!? How on earth can they do NOTHING?

As in not even TRYING?

 

Isn't their JOB supposed to be to do their best to prevent that kind of thing?

Just saying. I don't see an excuse for not even TRYING.

 

And that may be true... but isn't there other ways to do necessary research WITHOUT using baby body parts?

 

Edited by Silverswift

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I mean... IF there is no profit in it, then why do it,KNOWING how some people will see it?

Because it can help people, because there's nothing wrong with it, because medical professionals don't make decisions based on what makes uninformed people squeamish, because "eww, gross!" is neither a moral nor medical argument... I could go on. If we let medical progress be halted because some people find it "creepy", we're gonna have to go back to faith healing, because every medical advance ever has bothered large portions of the population at some point.

 

And that may be true... but isn't there other ways to do necessary research WITHOUT using baby body parts?

For a lot of it? No. Fetal tissue has several unique properties, and not using it would drastically curtail lifesaving medical research.

 

And frankly, I don't see why using fetus parts is any more creepy than using human tissue from other sources.

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Because it can help people, because there's nothing wrong with it, because medical professionals don't make decisions based on what makes uninformed people squeamish, because "eww, gross!" is neither a moral nor medical argument... I could go on. If we let medical progress be halted because some people find it "creepy", we're gonna have to go back to faith healing, because every medical advance ever has bothered large portions of the population at some point.

 

 

For a lot of it? No. Fetal tissue has several unique properties, and not using it would drastically curtail lifesaving medical research.

 

And frankly, I don't see why using fetus parts is any more creepy than using human tissue from other sources.

Actually I am NOT completely ignorant,so please do NOT make it sound like I am.

 

FIRST! I never said that the fact that some people find the concept 'creepy' was a moral argument per se.

However, I will say that I feel those who question the ethics of it may have a point.

 

I decided to satisfy some of my curiosity by reading about the subject.

 

I did find out some interesting things. First, apparently, elective abortions are NOT the only source for this... ectopic pregnancies and such are sometimes donated, too. ALSO,it sounds like the ethics of the thing have been kicked around, basically since this kind of research was even possible. ALSO,some scientists think that the need for it may, in time, die back due to other technology. What I diid find particularly interesting is that neither the practice itself OR the controversy around it are anything NEW necessarily... it is just that, because of those videos...there are a whole LOT more people thinking about it, right now.

 

Interesting. Link for linkness

 

I think part of the issue IS that if you have a cadaver that was donated to science, well that person probably gave consent for their body to be used that way... but a fetus can't really give consent.

Edited by Silverswift

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Children can't give consent. That's why a guardian has to sign their medical papers. The same logic applies for fetuses, even if they aren't people

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Actually I am NOT completely ignorant,so please do NOT make it sound like I am.

 

FIRST! I never said that the fact that some people find the concept 'creepy' was a moral argument per se.

 

I decided to satisfy some of my curiosity by reading about the subject.

 

I did find out some interesting things. First, apparently, elective abortions are NOT the only source for this... ectopic pregnancies and such are sometimes donated, too. ALSO,it sounds like the ethics of the thing have been kicked around, basically since this kind of research was even possible. ALSO,some scientists think that the need for it may, in time, die back dueto other technology.

 

Interesting. Link for linkness

I wasn't trying to call you ignorant, and I'm sorry that I came across that way.

 

I've been seeing a lot of aggravating arguments about this whole thing, and a lot of the people making the usage of fetal tissue into a 'controversy' are ignorant- willfully so. "Eww, gross" is the primary factor that is being brought up when most people attack fetal tissue research.

 

I think part of the issue IS that if you have a cadaver that was donated to science, well that person probably gave consent for their body to be used that way... but a fetus can't really give consent.

 

I guess I can see that, but since a fetus isn't sentient, it's really up to the mother to give consent to the donation.

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I think questioning whether it's ethical to use the corpse of a fetus for scientific research because they can't consent is kind of laughable considering it was just aborted without consent. Also, your parents can choose to donate your body to science until you become an adult without your consent, so it's pretty redundant.

 

If they weren't used for research, they would be thrown out. It would be a complete waste considering how much they help advance SO many different kinds of research. People are dying. There is no time to worry about people's feelings to hold back on research.

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If they weren't used for research, they would be thrown out.
May I just underline this little point. No one is being harmed by the research.

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