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I once commented here a few years back, blindly following a pro-life path...however I've changed my view.

 

I am 100% pro-choice. I recently got into an argument on Facebook on whether or not abortion is murder. Most of the arguments against me were "well they're idiots for having sex anyway!" no mention of things like birth control failing and sexual assault.

 

However, even if it is the woman's fault for not using some sort of birth control or contraception, I still don't think society should force them into motherhood when they're not ready to have a baby or don't want any kids at all, or even if they're not physically or mentally fit for becoming a mother in the first place. A woman has a right to her body, and an unborn, non-sentient fetus does not.

Not to mention forcing an unwanted child to be born.

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I'm not Christian and no expert, but I'm normally against abortion since I believe in karma. All life is equal and I'll avoid killing any living things. However I won't hesitate if I must.

 

Back on topic, I believe that it still depends on the situation. Maybe if you don't have the support you need to raise a baby or if you just aren't ready, or under situations like sexual assault as mentioned above then probably abortion is the only option. However, if you just don't want to have a baby or you're too lazy to raise it even though you can, then you're not taking responsibility.

 

No offense, but if you have sex voluntarily then you must know the risks and be able to accept any accidents that may happen, if you have the ability of course.

 

Anyway, that's just my view of the subject smile.gif

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@exaflare you're being very contradictory you know that?

However, if you just don't want to have a baby or you're too lazy to raise it even though you can, then you're not taking responsibility.
but you also say
Maybe if you don't have the support you need to raise a baby or if you just aren't ready

 

You're just not ready = you don't want to have a baby or you're too lazy to raise it

 

No offense, but if you have sex voluntarily then you must know the risks and be able to accept any accidents that may happen, if you have the ability of course.

 

Every time you go out of the house you can get hit by a car. So if you get hit by a car you must know the risks and be able to accept any accidents that may happen, if you have the ability to. Right? rolleyes.gif

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@ylangylang

Yeah, maybe I'm just a bit sleepy and got my head in the clouds xd.png

 

But back on topic,

 

Maybe if you don't have the support you need to raise a baby

By this I meant situations like people in relatively poor regions who don't have enough money to raise a baby.

 

However,

 

you just aren't ready

 

I meant that for girls who are rather young and do not have the ability to bear such a heavy responsibility such as having a baby. You do realize that there are also people out there who abort even though they are already adults and should be mature enough to be able to accept raising babies, right? So it's different than being too lazy to raise one.

 

And also

 

Every time you go out of the house you can get hit by a car. So if you get hit by a car you must know the risks and be able to accept any accidents that may happen, if you have the ability to.

 

I believe you meant by crossing a road you may be hit by a car, which is highly possible if you aren't alert of traffic conditions. So yes, you DO have to know the risks of crossing the road and accept any accidents that may happen due to your own recklessness if you happen to be jaywalking or not being alert.

 

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If one is too lazy to raise a child, then it is taking responsibility to not bring it into the world. And not wanting a baby is an excellent reason for NOT bringing one into the world - no one should bring into the world an unwanted child. People who don't want children or are too lazy to raise them should not be parents anyway as far as I'm concerned.

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I meant that for girls who are rather young and do not have the ability to bear such a heavy responsibility such as having a baby. You do realize that there are also people out there who abort even though they are already adults and should be mature enough to be able to accept raising babies, right? So it's different than being too lazy to raise one.

Officially being an adult does not in any way mean you're suddenly magically able to raise a child, a tiny human being, responsibly. I know 30 year olds I would let anywhere near a baby, just like I know 16 year olds who are better with babies than I'll ever be.

 

There are people having children who are too lazy to raise them. If I look at what those kids more often than not grow up into... it may sound cruel, but I often feel they would have been better off never having been born. They weren't raised with love and care and it shows in their entire being, often resulting in making the lives of others miserable.

 

I'm officially an adult and could technically raise a child, financially (though it'd be incredibly difficult on everyone involved, including the child). I have a loving partner, parents and in-laws who would be there for us if needed.

Still, were I to get pregnant right now, I wouldn't even have to think twice about it: I would abort. Neither me nor my partner are mentally ready for the huge responsibility of raising another human being. Heck, I'm still figuring out how to properly take care of myself, and I've been living on my own for about 5 years now!

We both know we want children eventually, preferably together, but now is simply not the time. We know that if we wait a few years, we'll be able to provide a child with the love and care it needs and deserves. I want the very best for my children, and that's simply not what I can offer them right now.

Edited by Rhynn Collins

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Officially being an adult does not in any way mean you're suddenly magically able to raise a child, a tiny human being, responsibly.

 

Of course, that's not what I mean when I said about adults taking responsibility of raising babies. I know that I'm not very good at expressing ideas, but oh well...

 

We both know we want children eventually, preferably together, but now is simply not the time. We know that if we wait a few years, we'll be able to provide a child with the love and care it needs and deserves. I want the very best for my children, and that's simply not what I can offer them right now.

 

I understand that. Raising a child is a huge responsibility, and I do know that it is a difficult decision to make. As you said, raising children without proper care could have disastrous results.

 

Anyway, as I've mentioned, whether abortion is appropriate really depends on the situation. Right?

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Of course, that's not what I mean when I said about adults taking responsibility of raising babies. I know that I'm not very good at expressing ideas, but oh well...

 

I understand that. Raising a child is a huge responsibility, and I do know that it is a difficult decision to make. As you said, raising children without proper care could have disastrous results.

 

Anyway, as I've mentioned, whether abortion is appropriate really depends on the situation. Right?

Abortion is "appropriate" if the pregnant woman wants an abortion. Simple as that. If she doesn't want a child, for whatever reason, she has the right not to have to bear one. And bringing an unwanted child into the world is never a good idea - and before you say it - the adoption and fostering services are completely broken, so no, that wouldn't be a good option, even if you think the woman should be forced to carry to term because she was irresponsible. Risking putting a child through that system - while it OCCASIONALLY works OK - is totally unfair on the child.

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I'm pretty sure I posted in this thread once a long, long time ago, but this seems like an appropriate time to bring back what I said back then.

 

There's this concept called bodily autonomy. What it means is that no one may use your body for anything without your consent. Even if someone needs a new kidney/liver/bone marrow and you're the only possible donor for them, you are not obligated to be a donor. It doesn't matter if it's a life or death situation, no one can force you to be a donor for the person in need.

 

 

That's also why people have to explicitly state their desire to be organ donors after their death. Without that consent, it is illegal to use their body for anything.

 

 

 

A fetus is dependent on the body of the person it's growing in. It needs the protection and the nutrients of said person's body. If the pregnant person does not consent to having the fetus growing inside them, feeding off of them and putting extreme strain on the host's internal organs...they should not be obligated to keep the fetus inside them for nine months.

 

 

To put it simply, right now in places where abortion is illegal, corpses have more rights over their bodies than pregnant people do.

Edited by Jackal

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I believe you meant by crossing a road you may be hit by a car, which is highly possible if you aren't alert of traffic conditions. So yes, you DO have to know the risks of crossing the road and accept any accidents that may happen due to your own recklessness if you happen to be jaywalking or not being alert.

You mean that people who get hit by a car have to live with the broken bones and internal bleeding because they knew about the risks? blink.gif

 

Because a pregnancy isn't a walk in the park. Neither is giving birth. And then we have a baby on top of it.

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I understand that. Raising a child is a huge responsibility, and I do know that it is a difficult decision to make. As you said, raising children without proper care could have disastrous results.

 

Anyway, as I've mentioned, whether abortion is appropriate really depends on the situation. Right?

Yeah, so if the person doesn't want a baby, that's a good enough reason to get an abortion. Or if they don't want to go through pregnancy, that's another very valid reason.

 

 

I hate it when people bring up this analogy :/ It's wrong. You are telling me that by getting in a car (or crossing the road or what have you), I accept that there is a possibility of getting into a car crash, even if I follow all the rules. Right. That's with everything in life, something can go wrong.

Now, by using that analogy to compare with how I shouldn't be able to get an abortion, you are telling me that I have no right at all to go to the hospital to get my injuries treated. Even if I was at fault, my status as a human being has just been degraded because I got into a car crash (even if it wasn't my fault, my status as a human being just got degraded). You are telling me that I have no right to being treated for my injuries because I got into a car crash (and this affects women only btw, all men have the right and ability to go to hospital after a car crash, although the man might have to support me financially for living as a cripple, I'm still unable to go and get fixed). Thanks, and if you didn't mean that, please do not use that analogy ever again.

Edited by High Lord November

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You mean that people who get hit by a car have to live with the broken bones and internal bleeding because they knew about the risks? blink.gif

@CatCreature

Of course not! I mean, if people cross the road without being aware of traffic (e.g. Wearing earplugs and not paying attention to cars) and get hit by a car because of it, by all means it IS their fault and they only get to blame themselves.

 

However, if someone got hit by a car because the driver was being reckless or drunk or whatever (which was mentioned), and the situation cannot be avoided by the pedestrian even if he/she was totally aware of traffic conditions, then of course it's the driver's fault, and the driver would most probably get arrested by the karma police. But that would be much rarer than reckless jaywalkers and whatnot. So yeah, if you DO get hit by a car even though you are perfectly aware of the road, of course that's not your fault but you still have to accept the cruel truth that is you got hit by a car driven by a jerk because it happened already and there's no way you could reverse time. That's just one of the risks, but we can't avoid crossing the road just because we're afraid of getting hit by a car, right?

 

But back on topic, I agree that being pregnant isn't a walk in the park, as well as giving birth and raising babies. But the main problem is, does a fetus count as a living thing? Because aborting would be no different than killing life if it does count. (Of course, you could say that a fetus may not have consciousness, but that's just speculation. Oh well...)

 

@High Lord November

There are people having children who are too lazy to raise them. If I look at what those kids more often than not grow up into... it may sound cruel, but I often feel they would have been better off never having been born. They weren't raised with love and care and it shows in their entire being, often resulting in making the lives of others miserable.

 

If you mean the reason about raising children without proper care could have disastrous results, I believe that point wasn't made by me.

 

And that analogy about the crossing the road wasn't made by me either. Of course, if you get hit by a car by all means you have the right to go to hospital and get your injuries treated. What I meant was if you got pregnant because of yourself you have to bear the consequences and there won't be any excuse.

 

I'm sorry if what I said turned out offensive-like, but that wasn't what I meant. Heck, I don't even knew that this thread would become a discussion about getting hit by cars xd.png

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(Of course, you could say that a fetus may not have consciousness, but that's just speculation. Oh well...)

A being needs a sufficiently developed nervous system (a brain, as it is) to be conscious; there is no "may" about it. A fetus does not have one that is even close to sufficiently advanced through most of pregnancy, and an early fetus does not possess one at all. You'd need a pregnancy to be about six months in before we can speak of there maybe being a primitive consciousness - and suffice to say, abortions aren't generally done that late unless there are severe health complications.

 

A life in and of itself means much less than whether or not someone is a person (and you cannot be a person unless you have the physical capacity to be conscious) - a mosquito has a live, a pot plant has a life... Plants can even feel pain, react to environment with movements and converse with one another, yet you only very rarely find a person who would defend a plant's right to live as one might a human's.

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@CatCreature

Of course not! I mean, if people cross the road without being aware of traffic (e.g. Wearing earplugs and not paying attention to cars) and get hit by a car because of it, by all means it IS their fault and they only get to blame themselves.

 

However, if someone got hit by a car because the driver was being reckless or drunk or whatever (which was mentioned), and the situation cannot be avoided by the pedestrian even if he/she was totally aware of traffic conditions, then of course it's the driver's fault, and the driver would most probably get arrested by the karma police. But that would be much rarer than reckless jaywalkers and whatnot. So yeah, if you DO get hit by a car even though you are perfectly aware of the road, of course that's not your fault but you still have to accept the cruel truth that is you got hit by a car driven by a jerk because it happened already and there's no way you could reverse time. That's just one of the risks, but we can't avoid crossing the road just because we're afraid of getting hit by a car, right?

And people don't stop having sex just because they are afraid of getting pregnant, right? wink.gif

 

And if they happen to be reckless or drunk or whatever and end up pregnant, they should still be free to choose abortion if they decide it's best for them.

 

I'm sorry if what I said turned out offensive-like, but that wasn't what I meant. Heck, I don't even knew that this thread would become a discussion about getting hit by cars  xd.png

 

That discussion pops up more often than you think. Some people keep posting here and telling us that people who have sex must live with the consequences of it, if they end up pregnant.

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What I meant was if you got pregnant because of yourself you have to bear the consequences and there won't be any excuse.

Getting an abortion is no less bearing the consequences than carrying the child to term and raising it, though. It's something that stays with you forever; you suddenly start thinking a lot more about what could have been, had I not.... Seeing a photograph of a child that's the age your child would have been had you chosen to go through with it is more than enough to start wondering if you've really done the right thing, no matter how rational the decision was in the first place.

 

And that's not to mention the physical consequences an abortion can have. There are always risks involved: the equipment used can be unclean (heard of it happening in the clinic in my old hometown, people went in for an abortion and came out with STDs because some idiot didn't clean the equipment used correctly), the abortion can be done incorrectly and leave bits and pieces which can make you incredibly ill, the procedure can potentially leave you infertile... if you know you want children eventually, having an abortion is a huge risk to take.

 

Pregnancy has consequences no matter what.

And besides... have to bear the consequences? Have to?! No. My body. My decision. My partner would have the privilege of giving his opinion and having me consider it if his is not the same as mine, but in the end no one else can tell me what to do with my body.

Edited by Rhynn Collins

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Of course, if you get hit by a car by all means you have the right to go to hospital and get your injuries treated.

 

What I meant was if you got pregnant because of yourself you have to bear the consequences and there won't be any excuse.

 

If the person at fault in a car accident has the right to seek treatment, then a person who is at fault for causing pregnancy by not using protection also has a right: the right to keep or rid themselves of it.

 

The only reason I see for denying a person this right is to impose one's moral/religious beliefs on someone else.

 

No offense, but if you have sex voluntarily then you must know the risks and be able to accept any accidents that may happen, if you have the ability of course.

 

The last clause here implies that people need to carry to term if they have the ability to do so, which is wrong on a number of levels. I mean people can get pregnant once their ovaries start releasing eggs, which can occur at ridiculously young ages, but is it really a good thing to force people to carry to term simply because their bodies now have the ability to do so, even if their mental state is capable of handling it? Ability to carry a pregnancy is not equal to the ability to be a good parent.

 

People should accept that accidents happen and that they could happen to them, but that's as far as it goes: knowing the risks and that that risk can happen to them. What should be left up to them is how to deal with it - no one should be made to carry a pregnancy to term simply because other people think abortion is taking the lazy way out. In many cases abortion IS taking responsibility; for example, when people abort because they cannot properly care for a child or when they simply don't want one, because no one should bring into the world a child they do not want or for which they cannot care.

 

But back on topic, I agree that being pregnant isn't a walk in the park, as well as giving birth and raising babies. But the main problem is, does a fetus count as a living thing? Because aborting would be no different than killing life if it does count. (Of course, you could say that a fetus may not have consciousness, but that's just speculation. Oh well...)

 

A fetus is alive, yes, but being alive is different from being conscious.

 

One of the biggest issues in the abortion debate, though, is that being against it/restricting it/making it illegal almost always hinges on people trying to impose their moral and/or religious views on other people. The other part is control.

 

Just as it is not okay to force people to get an abortion, it is not okay to force people to carry a pregnancy. It is not okay to take away someone's choice based on something you think is wrong.

Edited by Infinis

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the abortion can be done incorrectly and leave bits and pieces which can make you incredibly ill, the procedure can potentially leave you infertile... if you know you want children eventually, having an abortion is a huge risk to take.

 

Only if it's from a shady place. And it's 10x safer than giving birth. Soo...I'd chose the abortion.

 

I believe Shiny had a link to some pictures of what had happened to some women that gave birth. They got BAD damage..

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I believe Shiny had a link to some pictures of what had happened to some women that gave birth. They got BAD damage..

We have had members right here posting about how they suffered triple (!) prolapse from giving birth...

 

As for the "dangers of abortion" - that is predominantly true for shady places. Early abortion done in a proper clinic is provably much safer and complication-free than giving birth.

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As for the "dangers of abortion" - that is predominantly true for shady places. Early abortion done in a proper clinic is provably much safer and complication-free than giving birth.

Indeed, according to the Swedish Association for Sexuality Education does it occur in only 3-4% of all cases that there are still bits and pieces left in the uterus after the abortion, that needs to be scraped out afterwards.

Infection is more common than bits and pieces remaining post-abortion, but as long as the abortion is performed in a controlled, clean environment like a clinic, even infection shouldn't be a common occurrence. To note is also that medical abortion (which is the most common way of abortion) is also a lot less likely to result in bleeding and infection than a surgical abortion.

 

Finally, I quote their website as closely to the original text as I can:

 

"The risk that you who have made an abortion would experience difficulties conceiving in the future is very small, less than one in 1000."

 

Edit: It seems like the Swedish Healthcare Guide, which is an official homepage directly associated with hospitals and healthcare, offering medical advice and information, agree with this.

Edited by Ripan

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To be honest I am sick of the "you had sex! Live with the consequences" argument. You're treating having a child as a punishment. That's what it's called when you have unintended and unwanted consequences you have to live with)a punishment.

 

A person is not a punishment and should never be used as a tool for such. It's dehumanizing. What you are saying is that hey, have this baby as a punishment.

 

And not only is that frankly a disgusting sentiment towards whoever is going to have that child because omg how dare people have sex, but also towards the potential child that would come out of the world if people like you had their way.

Edited by ylangylang

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I think my favorite argument that some pro-lifers try to use against me is that supporting abortion means that I had the same mindset that existed during the Holocaust, segregation, slavery, etc.

 

I'm pretty sure racism and genocide are completely different than removing a non-sentient fetus from a living, breathing woman.

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Have you guys heard of 'Plan B Emergency Contraception'? It's supposed to be taken 72 hours after unprotected sex and I guess it's supposed to prevent pregnancy. I just saw the tail end of a commercial for it. I don't know if it's OTC or not...I think it is...anyway, it's an option that might help some women. I really don't know anything about it except what I caught on the commercial, which wasn't much. Just in case some hadn't heard of it I thought I'd throw it out there.

Edited by MedievalMystic

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Have you guys heard of 'Plan B Emergency Contraception'?  It's supposed to be taken 72 hours after unprotected sex and I guess it's supposed to prevent pregnancy.  I just saw the tail end of a commercial for it. I don't know if it's OTC or not...I think it is...anyway, it's an option that might help some women.  I really don't know anything about it except what I caught on the commercial, which wasn't much.  Just in case some hadn't heard of it I thought I'd throw it out there.

It *is* OTC, but I think you have to ask the pharmacist for it, like some of the cold medicines. More Plan B info. It can also be pricey-$35-$60 USD, but not as much as an abortion or pregnancy/childbirth.

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Have you guys heard of 'Plan B Emergency Contraception'? It's supposed to be taken 72 hours after unprotected sex and I guess it's supposed to prevent pregnancy. I just saw the tail end of a commercial for it. I don't know if it's OTC or not...I think it is...anyway, it's an option that might help some women. I really don't know anything about it except what I caught on the commercial, which wasn't much. Just in case some hadn't heard of it I thought I'd throw it out there.

It's OTC, and prevents pregnancy by delaying ovulation. So while it can be taken up to 72 hours after sex, the sooner the better, as it is more likely that the egg won't have left the ovary yet.

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