Abortion

[Brite]

Most of what I've heard is that its the fear of being sued. That you'll later decide you want children but can't because of the procedure. While it is apparently easier to undo it for a male, getting your tubes tied is permanent.

 

That, and most people don't believe there are women or female bodied women who do not want children. They play it off as once you hit late twenties/early thirties your biological clock is going to kick in and suddenly you'll want kids.

Not to mention that men can freeze sperm for later without undoing anything. My father planned on doing this until my mother found out she was pregnant with me so he just decided to call it quite and get a vasectomy.

 

I've still thought about donating my eggs but the thought of something running around in the world with MY DNA shakes me to the core. That and I wouldn't want a child to suffer my genes of horrible ADD problems and needed medication.

[MedievalMystic]

Good tactics, but a few parents from my elementary school years ago tried that and ended up being investigated for abuse. One parent did what you did, and just walked away, and she was branded for abandonment.

 

You can't do good punishment anymore without someone crying "abuse, that's ABUSE! Get those kids away from those parents!" it sickens me

 

I'd have gotten a lawyer if anyone had hassled me or tried to get me in trouble with the law over it. I don't get intimidated easily. No kid of mine was going to rule this house, no matter what anyone else had to say. I knew where my son was at the mall and kept my eye on him. I'm sure those parents you mentioned did too. I mean, really? HE didn't know that though and that was the point. I'd have told someone yelling abuse to kiss my ass and do their worst.

 

My oldest son, Sean, tried to intimidate me once. He said, 'If you ever hit me, I'm calling the cops on you!'. I said, 'No, you wouldn't. I'd call them for you. And when they left, I'd beat your ass again'. He never said that again. lol

 

I can count on one hand how many times my two boys actually did get a whack on the butt. It just wasn't needed. Parents have the power, simple as that, to make their kids lives miserable in so many, many ways that have nothing to do with hitting them. More of them need to get with the program and take back control as far as I'm concerned.

 

And they can bring paddles back into schools, too, for all I care. Yup. That would be a joyous day. Some kid says 'F You' to the teacher? Fire em' up. Yes indeed. We had them in my day. You screwed up once, but you didn't do it again. lol Man, my teacher had a hole drilled in hers and you could hear it whistle right before it landed... I got in trouble and got a whack one time. That was more than enough.

 

And for those that scream 'abuse'...yeah, well, until the day my kid came home black and blue from head to toe with broken bones to match I wouldn't sweat it.

[Brite]

 

I can count on one hand how many times my two boys actually did get a whack on the butt. It just wasn't needed. Parents have the power, simple as that, to make their kids lives miserable in so many, many ways that have nothing to do with hitting them. More of them need to get with the program and take back control as far as I'm concerned.

 

And they can bring paddles back into schools, too, for all I care. Yup. That would be a joyous day. Some kid says 'F You' to the teacher? Fire em' up. Yes indeed. We had them in my day. You screwed up once, but you didn't do it again. lol Man, my teacher had a hole drilled in hers and you could hear it whistle right before it landed... I got in trouble and got a whack one time. That was more than enough.

 

And for those that scream 'abuse'...yeah, well, until the day my kid came home black and blue from head to toe with broken bones to match I wouldn't sweat it.

Yes I agree, but in these days a lot of parents expect teachers to raise their children instead of just teaching. My oldest sister is a day care teacher and has dealt with stupid parents. There was an incident where a child had a problem with throwing his lunch food everywhere and the parents asked my sister "Well, why didn't you teach him to stop? You're suppose to teach him that, right?" Not exaggerating here.

 

I see what kids can do and I couldn't deal with it, plus I don't like cleaning their mess. If I'm forced to watch a kid for only a week, I'd end up drowning them. Yea, go ahead and dog pile me for it, but it's the truth and my mind isn't changing. If I ever get pregnant, no matter how many times, (and yes, I DO use contraception) abortion will be my go to.

 

I couldn't even handle the crying dolls they have in school for an HOUR. I passed out from stress. It was removed from my care.

[DarkLadyNyara]

It is easy to throw a life away, the quickest solution but if you have ever had a baby in your arms then you could never abort one.

I love (by which I mean facepalm) when people make claims that are that so blatantly detached from reality. More than half of the women who get abortions (About 61%, in fact) already have children.

 

If a woman doesn't ever want to get pregnant, hates kids, etc, whatever, why not just get a hysterectomy?  Are there health reasons women wouldn't go that route?  I don't know.  I'm just asking.

You...um...are aware that a hysterectomy is a major surgery, right? And that it's very difficult for young and/or childless women to get sterilized? (because all women must want babies! And if they say otherwise, they're just deluded!)

[Obscure_Trash]

This is not the the thread to discuss disciplining children or corporal punishment. Edited October 13, 2014 by SockPuppet Strangler

[BlitzDrake]

Well...not sure what this entails.... Battle over abortion may return to the Supreme Court

[Lila]

Well...not sure what this entails.... Battle over abortion may return to the Supreme Court

Oh, how I love living in Texas, where the unborn are more holy than immigrant children.

[Koroshiya-Ichi]

From the above article:

Because these laws shorten the time frame in which women can seek a medical abortion, they make it more likely women will have to undergo a more-invasive surgical abortion. Requirements that women travel to a clinic or doctor's office to take each dose also often come on top of other state-mandated doctor visits — in the case of Texas, women receiving medical abortions must see the doctor three or even four times, per the state's 24 hour waiting period law. Abortion rights activists argue that these rules create substantial obstacles to abortion access, making them unconstitutional. But supporters of the legislation say using certain drugs "off label" — meaning not exactly to the FDA's original standards — to induce abortion is dangerous to women's health.

 

This is just so freaking petty and gross I can hardly stand it. If you want to throw up roadblocks to restrict access to abortion, at least be honest about it. Don't pretend to give one single crap about "women's health" in this context.

[Tazzay]

Since it's relevant to the topic, a little something I found on tumblr;

 

//Trigger warning for suicide and torture mention//

 

 

 

Gisella Perl was forced to work as a doctor in Auschwitz concentration camp during the holocaust.

 

She was ordered to report every pregnant women to the physician Dr. Josef Mengele, who would then use the women for cruel experiments (e.g. vivisections) before killing them.

 

She saved hundreds of women by performing abortions on them before their pregnancy was discovered, without having access to basic medical supplies. She became known as the “Angel of Auschwitz”.

 

After being rescued from Bergen-Belsen concentration camp she tried to commit suicide, but survived, recovered and kept working as a gynecologist, delivering more than 3000 babies.

 

//End of trigger//

_______

 

So basically, for every fetus Gisella aborted, a life was saved.

 

The laws that are around today regarding abortion and someone's reproductive rights are just...ridiculous. If a pregnant person wants an abortion, whether it be because it's life-threatening or they were sexually assaulted, let them have one. Seriously. The men trying to control what happens with someone's uterus really need to shut up.

[Nine]

The men trying to control what happens with someone's uterus really need to shut up.

And here I thought anyone trying to control someone else's body, regardless of their sex, was a bad thing.

[edwardelricfreak]

"We are looking to protect women from substandard care," says Denise Burke, the vice president of legal affairs at the anti-abortion public interest law firm Americans United for Life, which has crafted and pushed for many state abortion laws. "Abortion is an invasive surgical procedure. It's a procedure that carries a number of complications."

 

excuse me while I go have a laughing fit over how ridiculous this statement is

 

I mean, what about the complications during pregnancy??? Which is even MORE dangerous!

[lightbird]

You...um...are aware that a hysterectomy is a major surgery, right? And that it's very difficult for young and/or childless women to get sterilized? (because all women must want babies! And if they say otherwise, they're just deluded!)

Depends on where you live.

In my country (Latvia), they used to have the law according to which you could only get it, if you're 35+ years old and already have two children. A couple years ago they changed it, and now you can get laparoscopy if you're at least 25, regardless of whether you have children or not.

I think it's the same as in Scandinavian and a couple other European countries, but I don't remember exactly right now.

I'm considering this option, since I've known for most of my life now that I don't want any children, but I've yet to get the courage to deal with the mandatory counselling session, in which they'd likely try to brainwash me about how I'm too young at 27 to make the decision, should consider other options and gosh, would I think of this country's bad demographic situation, but I'm probably exaggerating, because I'm just socially anxious. :B

 

But, really, if I wanted to care for a child, I'd adopt... and I'd adopt an older child, not a baby.

Edited October 16, 2014 by lightbird

[Fuzzbucket]

Since it's relevant to the topic, a little something I found on tumblr;

 

//Trigger warning for suicide and torture mention//

 

 

 

Gisella Perl was forced to work as a doctor in Auschwitz concentration camp during the holocaust.

 

She was ordered to report every pregnant women to the physician Dr. Josef Mengele, who would then use the women for cruel experiments (e.g. vivisections) before killing them.

 

She saved hundreds of women by performing abortions on them before their pregnancy was discovered, without having access to basic medical supplies. She became known as the “Angel of Auschwitz”.

 

After being rescued from Bergen-Belsen concentration camp she tried to commit suicide, but survived, recovered and kept working as a gynecologist, delivering more than 3000 babies.

 

//End of trigger//

_______

 

So basically, for every fetus Gisella aborted, a life was saved.

 

The laws that are around today regarding abortion and someone's reproductive rights are just...ridiculous. If a pregnant person wants an abortion, whether it be because it's life-threatening or they were sexually assaulted, let them have one. Seriously. The men trying to control what happens with someone's uterus really need to shut up.

WOW. I had no idea. Thanks for that, Tazzay. Gisela is now one of my heroines.

[Koroshiya-Ichi]

Yes, thank you Tazzay. I'm doing some research on this woman and this is a fascinating and heartbreaking story.

 

edit: NY Times article about her from 1982

Edited October 16, 2014 by Koroshiya-Ichi

[BlitzDrake]

Found something on a lighter...note about american sex ed that, while funny, show's how bad the system is. Sex Ed in America

[Brite]

Found something on a lighter...note about american sex ed that, while funny, show's how bad the system is. Sex Ed in America

Ha! I'd post that all over my high school walls if I could.

[Fuzzbucket]

What's the safest way to teach....

[Brite]

What's the safest way to teach....

NOT AT ALL Teaching could lead to misinformation or misunderstanding, it's best to not do it at all.

[Fuzzbucket]

NOT AT ALL Teaching could lead to misinformation or misunderstanding, it's best to not do it at all.

Right. So let's all tell that guy to find a new job

[Brotato]

Sex ed is pretty decent from where I come from.

....by which I mean there are no Sex Ed classes, but the children are raised to be responsible and logical thinkers well enough that once they learn what sex is, they conclude on their own that doing the dirty can have disastrous consequences if they don't take precautionary measures.

 

But that doesn't mean teen pregnancy and unwanted pregnancy aren't an issue here. They are problems everywhere. So on the topic of abortion, I'm all for it. A woman must have every right to do whatever she wants to her body, even if it means removing a developing foetus from it.

 

No, I do not consider a Foetus a human being. It is something that CAN BECOME a human being, but not nearly close enough to being one to be protected by written or unwritten laws against it's mother's will.

 

In addition to which, on the topic of irresponsible sex, I think we need to give men the option to also disentangle themselves from parenthood after an unwanted conception occurs. Because if a man has unprotected sex, he's screwed. When the child is born, he's forced to pay alimony or he'll be sent to prison. Where as the woman has the right to abort the child on her own volition.

 

A man should have the right to financially disentangle himself from the responsibility of having an unwanted child, meaning that once this is done, he has effectively severed any relations with it. He can't see it, he can't talk to it, he can't tell anyone that he's it's father, it basically legally stops existing for him, should it's mother decide to keep it and raise it by herself, rather then abort it. But, this also means he doesn't have to pay a dime for it. It's simply not his any more.

 

I know that's a bit off-topic, but I just wanted to share this one thought with you all.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Brotato

[Kestra15]

In addition to which, on the topic of irresponsible sex, I think we need to give men the option to also disentangle themselves from parenthood after an unwanted conception occurs. Because if a man has unprotected sex, he's screwed. When the child is born, he's forced to pay alimony or he'll be sent to prison. Where as the woman has the right to abort the child on her own volition.

 

A man should have the right to financially disentangle himself from the responsibility of having an unwanted child, meaning that once this is done, he has effectively severed any relations with it. He can't see it, he can't talk to it, he can't tell anyone that he's it's father, it basically legally stops existing for him, should it's mother decide to keep it and raise it by herself, rather then abort it. But, this also means he doesn't have to pay a dime for it. It's simply not his any more.

...I suppose that is actually a fair point, though I'll admit now (before anyone starts judging me for the rest of the post) I'm not sure how I feel about such a scenario given how many absent fathers are in my family.

 

However...we spend a lot of time here discussing body autonomy for women, which is the prime argument - it's a woman's body, she can choose what she does with it. But we do factor in that it's not just about the woman's physical ability to bear children; it's their emotional/psychological ability, their financial state, whether they want to be a mother or not...and since the woman's right to her own body is paramount, then she has the final say on an abortion. Even if the man is ready to commit and wants the child, can afford for it and the woman, and really would be a fantastic father, if the woman says 'no' her decision is final.

 

Turning that on it's head, if the male is the emotionally and psychologically incapable one with no life prospects and is terrified of being a father, if the woman says she's keeping it then he can't stop or force her (nor should he), but he is then legally obliged to provide no matter what. And that is a bit unfair on men - basically, women get the say on whether a child is born and the man cannot force her decision one way or another, and there will be men who end up screwed by that decision; those who want to keep the baby but can't, and those who don't want to be a father but will be. So such an option would give men a kind of get-out clause.

 

There would naturally need to be strict regulation of that law, the most obvious being that at the time of conception it was a consensual act (though proving that may be difficult?). It would probably take the form of an initial pay-off, because women are restricted in what they can and can't work at the latter stages of pregnancy and after birth. It would have to be a decision made early in the pregnancy to avoid men just cut-and-running after the baby is born (which is what several fathers in my family have done). It would have to be proven that the woman is not under duress to keep the child and has been given the option of terminating the baby (to keep it fair and demonstrate that the woman does indeed want to keep the child, and she's not being unfairly forced/coerced into going through with pregnancy). And I'm sure we will undoubtedly come up with more if this aspect of the debate develops.

 

Bottom line? If a man doesn't want a kind but a woman does, it can end up screwing up the guy to a similar extent that an unwanted birth can emotionally, psychologically, financially and socially screw up a woman (though in my opinion women do get screwed over more in the case of an unwanted pregnancy coming to term, because it is more physically and emotionally tasking for them. Obviously). But if we want some form of equal opportunity I guess we do need to give men the opportunity to disassociate themselves and eventually have no more rights to the child than a sperm donor.

[edwardelricfreak]

When the child is born, he's forced to pay alimony or he'll be sent to prison.

I would just like to say that my father still gets off scott-free only because my grandmother (his mother) pays for him. I've never thought this was fair to her, but I just wanted to point out a situation where a father basically has no repercussions. At all. It's like that in a lot of situations.

[Fuzzbucket]

I would just like to say that my father still gets off scott-free only because my grandmother (his mother) pays for him. I've never thought this was fair to her, but I just wanted to point out a situation where a father basically has no repercussions. At all. It's like that in a lot of situations.

This. Men are as responsible as women when a pregnancy occurs, and shouldn't be able to swan off and leave her literally holding the baby.

[nlechoppa]

Except we don't have control over the birth of the baby. You have sex without a condom on accident. Your screwed over if you don't have enough money or you won't be a good father. We do have emotions and can be impacted the same way as women.

[Shienvien]

Moreso: A male *does* use condom while having sex, but it breaks, resulting in pregnancy. And possibly furthermore has been eating pills that are supposed to make sperm unviable (if such exist/existed), but those didn't have the intended effect, either. (So he *did* do everything in his power to avoid pregnancy occurring.) The female then decides to give birth no matter what.

 

- Since you really can't have sex without a condom "on accident" unless you are extremely undereducated or intoxicated to the point of being incapable of comprehending what is going on. If you claim having sex without a condom "on accident," I will most likely by scrutinizing your statements very heavily, since it sounds like somewhat dishonest claim of someone who just wants not to take responsibility.