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Touchy feely subject, but a lot of good arguments. I like this.

My stance on this is pretty bland, unfortunately.

 

I believe in equal and unlimited reproductive rights.

If a mother wants to abort her pregnancy, then she should have every right to do so.

Also, it goes without saying, that banishing abortion is nothing but troublesome, seeing as the problem stems not from the practice but from people's irresponsibility with their 'junk'.

 

Rather then putting resources towards finding and taking down illegal abortion clinics (which are a real health hazard seeing as the majority are run by unqualified "professionals"). We should invest in better sex-ed and other measures towards avoiding unwanted pregnancies altogether. In addition, abortion clinics should be made available, but regulated to ensure that the people working within them are qualified and well equipped.

 

As for abortion as an act, be that moral or immoral, it's all very context sensitive. But I personally wouldn't feel any more guilty over a dead fetus then I do over swatting a mosquito.

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"This confuses me. Can you tell me what we're doing right now? Is it not debate? So you're allowed to say that you want to force people not to have abortions, but we can't say that it's ridiculous that people want to do so? Huh."

 

 

Also, if you want to quote people's posts, highlight everything you're quoting and press "Quote" up in the Code Buttons bar."

 

I mainly post from a mobile device, thus making it a pain to do when quoting multiple people.

 

"This confuses me. Can you tell me what we're doing right now? Is it not debate? So you're allowed to say that you want to force people not to have abortions, but we can't say that it's ridiculous that people want to do so? Huh."

 

I was saying its contradictory of being on the side of choice to believe pro lifers have no grounds to say its rediculous. Or does choice have a different meaning I wasn't aware of? She has the right to say so, I'm saying I felt as if I wasn't being allowed my right to say so. That's all I was saying. (Hmmm?)

 

 

"No one here is pro-abortion. The whole thing is emphasizing pro-choice. Your choice."

 

If you support the idea and practice of abortion (regardless of if you believe choice is first) then you indeed, ARE pro-abortion. Not saying you're forcing mothers into abortions, but that you firmly believe the practice is right. #Clarified

Also, what if my choice is to say that being pro choice is wrong? Shouldn't you support that choice? Or is it only your choice you support?

 

Well it's still out of Order... Oh well, I'll be watching. smile.gif

Edited by Htt71

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If you support the idea and practice of abortion (regardless of if you believe choice is first) then you indeed, ARE pro-abortion. Not saying you're forcing mothers into abortions, but that you firmly believe the practice is right. #Clarified

 

Then you'll see where we come from when we call pro-life as a euphemism for "pro-forced-birth".

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If you support the idea and practice of abortion (regardless of if you believe choice is first) then you indeed, ARE pro-abortion. Not saying you're forcing mothers into abortions, but that you firmly believe the practice is right. #Clarified

Also, what if my choice is to say that being pro choice is wrong? Shouldn't you support that choice? Or is it only your choice you support?

 

Well it's still out of Order... Oh well, I'll be watching. smile.gif

It is your choice. Your choice for you. But don't try to force it upon other people when their choice is different. The idea is not "Whoop-de-do, abortions for everyone!" It's that everyone has a different story and life and they should have the choice to get an abortion if they so desired it without shaming and berating of other people. You can have your choice. But forcing it on other people is like a religion walking up to you, handing you its holy book and shoving you into their respective place of worship. You should have the choice to practice whatever religion you want, not be shoved into a box you might not even agree with.

 

On a side note, back to brain death. Life is not determined by heart beat. It is determined by EEG. That is why brain death is a legal death, even when the heart caries on. Fetuses do not have EEG until about the 13th-ish week of development. Most abortions occur before the 9th week and over 90% before the 13th.. This means that abortion cannot be called murder because the fetus was never alive due to lack of EEG. Fetus cannot be murdered (Before this time), only disposed of.

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"This confuses me. Can you tell me what we're doing right now? Is it not debate? So you're allowed to say that you want to force people not to have abortions, but we can't say that it's ridiculous that people want to do so? Huh."

 

 

Also, if you want to quote people's posts, highlight everything you're quoting and press "Quote" up in the Code Buttons bar."

 

I mainly post from a mobile device, thus making it a pain to do when quoting multiple people.

 

"This confuses me. Can you tell me what we're doing right now? Is it not debate? So you're allowed to say that you want to force people not to have abortions, but we can't say that it's ridiculous that people want to do so? Huh."

 

I was saying its contradictory of being on the side of choice to believe pro lifers have no grounds to say its rediculous. Or does choice have a different meaning I wasn't aware of? She has the right to say so, I'm saying I felt as if I wasn't being allowed my right to say so. That's all I was saying. (Hmmm?)

 

 

"No one here is pro-abortion. The whole thing is emphasizing pro-choice. Your choice."

 

If you support the idea and practice of abortion (regardless of if you believe choice is first) then you indeed, ARE pro-abortion. Not saying you're forcing mothers into abortions, but that you firmly believe the practice is right. #Clarified

Also, what if my choice is to say that being pro choice is wrong? Shouldn't you support that choice? Or is it only your choice you support?

 

Well it's still out of Order... Oh well, I'll be watching. smile.gif

Pro-choice entails that each person chooses for themselves. Themselves is the key word. Pro-choice does not entail you being able to choose if you want to force your opinion on others, which I think where the confusion is coming from. Any time you force your opinions on others, it is no longer pro-choice. If you would never abort, then you dont have to. You have to recognize that others do not associate the same opinions towards abortion and that they might want to abort. Like me, for example. Everyone has their own opinions which they will apply to themselves, but no one else.

 

If you think abortion should be banned, then you are not prochoice.

 

Pro-abortion is the opposite of pro-life and therefore entails that all women should have an abortion, or should be encouraged to abort. Pro-choice means regardless of my personal opinion, you can do whatever's right for you.

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If you support the idea and practice of abortion (regardless of if you believe choice is first) then you indeed, ARE pro-abortion. Not saying you're forcing mothers into abortions, but that you firmly believe the practice is right. #Clarified

Also, what if my choice is to say that being pro choice is wrong? Shouldn't you support that choice? Or is it only your choice you support?

 

To believe abortion is wrong is fine. For you. I support your choice to be anti-abortion (I REFUSE to call that stance pro-life, because it isn't.)

 

What is NOT OK is to try and force that belief on others. I believe that it is right to have the choice. It isn't that abortion is good or bad in and of itself, but that we all have the right to see it as good or bad in our own situations, and to make that decision for ourselves, not on the basis of what someone else believes. In some circumstances I do believe abortion is the right thing to do; in others, not (for instance where a horrified parent forces a daughter to have an abortion when she doesn't want to.)

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Please do tell, if you're so passionate about abortion, why shouldn't anyone be able to debate how ethical or morally right/wrong it is? I can't control your body or anyone else's, but that doesn't mean I can't see different perspectives or attempt to have people see mine. In my opinion the fact that you question my right to freely debate abortion is idiotic. Why would you preach choice but be so narrow about the freedom of freedom of choice? Hmmm? Also, my brain is firmly inside of my skull, and I live in the USA.

It's not just an opinion when your opinion affects others lifestyles, or aspects of thereoff. wink.gif

Pretty much this:

If you were aborted you wouldn't be losing anything, because you never had anything. Fetuses don't know what life is like yet so if it is aborted it's not going to be losing some part of life it had. (e.g. memories) On the other hand, if the mother dies she will know she is dying and she has the ability to feel emotions. She will be leaving behind her family and friends, and everything she had in life. ~Sparkles

Edited by BlightWyvern

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Also, what if my choice is to say that being pro choice is wrong? Shouldn't you support that choice? Or is it only your choice you support?

You can believe whatever you like but the trouble/conflict arises when you attempt to force your opinions on someone else. So, just asking since I don't actually know your stance here, but do you personally believe abortions should be outlawed/not allowed to happen? If so, for everyone? etc. please provide details.

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If you support the idea and practice of abortion (regardless of if you believe choice is first) then you indeed, ARE pro-abortion. Not saying you're forcing mothers into abortions, but that you firmly believe the practice is right.

 

Except that there are people who hate abortion, think it's a sin, and is murder who are pro-choice. Because they have the basic level of human decency to respect that not everybody shares the same opinion on the matter.

 

I firmly believe that abortion is right in certain situations--namely any time the mother has considered her options and has made the decision that abortion is the best option for her current circumstances.

 

No matter if I personally agree or disagree with a decision made regarding aborting or not given the circumstances of the female in question, I will support their right to make that choice for themselves.

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Also, what if my choice is to say that being pro choice is wrong? Shouldn't you support that choice? Or is it only your choice you support?

It is your choice to have such an opinion.

 

It is our choice to disagree.

 

Respecting a person's choice and opinion does not mean agreeing with them, or supporting opinions that are damaging to others. Because once it starts hurting people it becomes Not Okay.

 

You may believe that abortion hurts fetuses and is therefore Not Okay. Many people disagree because abortions are typically performed before the fetus has the capacity to feel anything, let alone pain. But many who support choice recognize that forcing a woman to carry and deliver an unwanted fetus most definitely hurts her in a myriad of ways and is therefore Not Okay.

Edited by Lythiaren

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Not strictly related to abortion, but indirectly related since a lot of anti-choice people in the USA want to defund Planned Parenthood since it's "the abortion place" and totally don't understand how many other services they provide that are life-savers to people.

 

Here's a quote that's been passed around on Tumblr about some of the other, really good things they do in regards to birth control--like provide a safe, non-judgmental place where people can get help.

 

“I know I’ve told this story before, but my abusive ex refused to let me take birth control. I was on the pill until he found them in my purse.

I went to the Student Health Center—they were completely unhelpful, choosing to lecture me about the importance of safe sex (recommending condoms) instead of actually listening to my problem.

 

Then I went to Planned Parenthood. The Nurse Practitioner took one look at my fading bruises and stopped the exam. She called in the doctor. The doctor came in and simply asked me: “Are you ready to leave him?” When I denied that I was being abused, she didn’t argue with me. She just asked me what I needed. I said I need a birth control method that my boyfriend couldn’t detect. She recommended a few options and we decided on Depo.

 

When I told her that my boyfriend read my emails and listened to my phone messages and was known to follow me, she suggested to do the Depo injections at off hours when the clinic was normally closed. She made a note in my chart and instructed the front desk never to leave messages for me—instead, she programmed her personal cell phone number into my phone under the name “Nora”. She told me she would call me to schedule my appointments; she wouldn’t leave a message, but I should call her back when I was able to.

 

And that was it. No judgment. No lecture. She walked me to the door and told me to call her day or night if I needed anything. That she lived 5 blocks from campus and would come get me. That I wasn’t alone. That she just wanted me to be safe.

 

I never called her to come to my rescue. But I have no doubt that she would have come if I had called. She kept me on Depo for a year, giving me those monthly injections in secret, helping me prevent a desperately unwanted pregnancy.

 

I cannot thank Planned Parenthood enough for the work they do.”

 

Here's a link to the post

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anyone who believes abortion is ok should not only be steralized/fixed but they should also never be allowed to have children any other way and any they currently have should be removed from their care. if you think its ok to murder a child in the womb it is not a far step from believing those outside it are fair game as well. if someone were to do any of the things we believe it ok to to do unborn children to one who is outside the womb they would be arrested/imprisoned for life or executed. if the woman/girl is too young , unprepaired or w/e other reason they may have for killing a kid heres what they need to do suck it up stop being selfish give 9 months of your 70-90 year average lifespan to do the right thing so that child can have a life too. you dont even have to take the kid home from the hospital its legal to leave without them and the hospital can have them put up for adoption there are plenty of loving families looking for a child and you could be killing somones future pride and joy and/or the future husband/wife or best friend of another person you could be drasticly changing the futures of many people because youre too selfish to bring the baby into the world.

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anyone who believes abortion is ok should not only be steralized/fixed but they should also never be allowed to have children any other way and any they currently have should be removed from their care. if you think its ok to murder a child in the womb it is not a far step from believing those outside it are fair game as well. if someone were to do any of the things we believe it ok to to do unborn children to one who is outside the womb they would be arrested/imprisoned for life or executed. if the woman/girl is too young , unprepaired or w/e other reason they may have for killing a kid heres what they need to do suck it up stop being selfish give 9 months of your 70-90 year average lifespan to do the right thing so that child can have a life too. you dont even have to take the kid home from the hospital its legal to leave without them and the hospital can have them put up for adoption there are plenty of loving families looking for a child and you could be killing somones future pride and joy and/or the future husband/wife or best friend of another person you could be drasticly changing the futures of many people because youre too selfish to bring the baby into the world.

Except it's not a child, it's a fetus. And unless it occurs after the 13th week, a fetus cannot be killed, only disposed of. It's easy to say just give up 9 months when you aren't the one who's pregnant. The adoption crisis we are having is terrible and the last thing we need is flooding the system with more children. Some people do not want children. Do not force them to be subjected to your views.

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anyone who believes abortion is ok should not only be steralized/fixed but they should also never be allowed to have children any other way and any they currently have should be removed from their care. if you think its ok to murder a child in the womb it is not a far step from believing those outside it are fair game as well. if someone were to do any of the things we believe it ok to to do unborn children to one who is outside the womb they would be arrested/imprisoned for life or executed. if the woman/girl is too young , unprepaired  or w/e other reason  they may have for killing a kid heres what they need to do suck it up stop being selfish give 9 months of your 70-90 year average lifespan to do the right thing so that child can have a life too. you dont even have to take the kid home from the hospital its legal to leave without them and the hospital can have them put up for adoption there are plenty of loving families looking for a child and you could be killing somones future pride and joy and/or the future husband/wife or best friend of another person you could be drasticly changing the futures of many people because youre too selfish to bring the baby into the world.

*beepbeepbeepbeepbeep!* We've got a force birther here.

 

Edited: I see a lot of cruel statements in this post. It almost makes me shutter a bit. I believe I just did O_O

Edited by GhostChilli

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anyone who believes abortion is ok should not only be steralized/fixed but they should also never be allowed to have children any other way and any they currently have should be removed from their care. if you think its ok to murder a child in the womb it is not a far step from believing those outside it are fair game as well. if someone were to do any of the things we believe it ok to to do unborn children to one who is outside the womb they would be arrested/imprisoned for life or executed. if the woman/girl is too young , unprepaired  or w/e other reason  they may have for killing a kid heres what they need to do suck it up stop being selfish give 9 months of your 70-90 year average lifespan to do the right thing so that child can have a life too. you dont even have to take the kid home from the hospital its legal to leave without them and the hospital can have them put up for adoption there are plenty of loving families looking for a child and you could be killing somones future pride and joy and/or the future husband/wife or best friend of another person you could be drasticly changing the futures of many people because youre too selfish to bring the baby into the world.

Reasons for choosing an abortion differ case by case, are extremely complex, and often heart-rending. The decision is extremely personal and unless you are the one with an unwanted embryo in your uterus, it is not for you to decide.

 

If the mother is too young or she is not healthy, it could kill her.

 

If the mother is unprepared, nine months may not be long enough to prepare.

 

If complications arise during the pregnancy that could lead to severe deformities or negatively impact the life of the child, the parents may not be able to care for it under those circumstances, and if the government keeps cutting the social safety net, things won't get better for them.

 

A rape victim is far from selfish if she chooses to terminate a resulting pregnancy. If she is forced to carry to term, she endures a a constant reminder of the violence against her, and the child becomes a lasting symbol of her attacker's power over her. It becomes a victory for a rapist. This is extremely unhealthy for not only mother and child, but for society itself as it promotes victim-blaming rape culture.

 

The system for adopting children is horrifying, and there are far more children in it waiting to find homes than there are parents allowed to adopt them. And since far too many places do not allow GSM families to adopt, the pool of potential adopters is so small that the child's chances of finding a loving home through that system are depressingly tiny. I'd rather dump the unwanted zygote out of my system than allow it to develop and then put him/her into a broken system that would subject them to medical experimentation and abuse and then turn them out onto the streets should they not be adopted. Because I am not white, they would not be white, therefore chances are they would be overlooked by potential homes because statistically, children lucky enough to be adopted are more often white than any other race. I will not, ever, put a child into that system. If I cannot care for a child, I will not bring it into the world.

 

A woman who has to face the choice must be unimaginably strong, whatever the choice she makes: termination or carrying to term, keeping the child or adopting should she choose the latter. You do not know the circumstances behind any particular woman's decision.

 

Why should we punish her for having sex that you don't approve of? What gives you the right to control her body? A person can tell the doctors not to take organs from their body when they die, but you say a living woman cannot tell a clump of cells not to use her uterus?

 

By advocating forced birth, you are telling us that women deserve less respect than we give to a corpse. That's extremely disturbing. I may not have sex myself but I'm not seeking to take away the autonomy of those who do. Bodily autonomy is a human right.

Edited by Lythiaren

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anyone who believes abortion is ok should not only be steralized/fixed but they should also never be allowed to have children any other way and any they currently have should be removed from their care. if you think its ok to murder a child in the womb it is not a far step from believing those outside it are fair game as well. if someone were to do any of the things we believe it ok to to do unborn children to one who is outside the womb they would be arrested/imprisoned for life or executed. if the woman/girl is too young , unprepaired or w/e other reason they may have for killing a kid heres what they need to do suck it up stop being selfish give 9 months of your 70-90 year average lifespan to do the right thing so that child can have a life too. you dont even have to take the kid home from the hospital its legal to leave without them and the hospital can have them put up for adoption there are plenty of loving families looking for a child and you could be killing somones future pride and joy and/or the future husband/wife or best friend of another person you could be drasticly changing the futures of many people because youre too selfish to bring the baby into the world.

What about people who would die/kill themselves because of pregnancy? Do they not get a choice to live? What about people who are raped and don't get a choice to have sex?

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anyone who believes abortion is ok should not only be steralized/fixed but they should also never be allowed to have children any other way and any they currently have should be removed from their care. if you think its ok to murder a child in the womb it is not a far step from believing those outside it are fair game as well. if someone were to do any of the things we believe it ok to to do unborn children to one who is outside the womb they would be arrested/imprisoned for life or executed. if the woman/girl is too young , unprepaired  or w/e other reason  they may have for killing a kid heres what they need to do suck it up stop being selfish give 9 months of your 70-90 year average lifespan to do the right thing so that child can have a life too. you dont even have to take the kid home from the hospital its legal to leave without them and the hospital can have them put up for adoption there are plenty of loving families looking for a child and you could be killing somones future pride and joy and/or the future husband/wife or best friend of another person you could be drasticly changing the futures of many people because youre too selfish to bring the baby into the world.

A) Up to a certain point far along in pregnancy, it is literally just a group of insentient, growing cells. That's it. It isn't a person. It doesn't think. It doesn't register pain. It isn't self-aware. It's the equivalent to my arm. It is just a group of cells.

 

B ) If you want to call it a person, no person has a right to use my body and my organs against my will. It is a literal parasite. It is leeching off of my bodily resources, it is taking residence in my body against my will. If removing it kills the cells, then it kills the cells.

 

If it is a separate being (i.e. actually born), then there's no reason for me to "kill" it. It can survive on its own (i.e. not directly leeching off of my organs and nutrients), and is much more aware.

 

C) Go research pregnancy.

 

D) Go research your horrible adoption system.

D) Your attitude towards real, living individuals is absolutely horrifying. I was going to go through each point, but too many points in a discussion and they all get brushed aside or lost and I'm short on time. I'm sure others will cover, if I have the time I'll come back.

Edited by High Lord November

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-deleted because I am NOT having that content in my posts-

I honestly am in shock that anybody could even think it was okay to post something so incredibly rude, offensive, and downright horrifying.

 

I actually feel a little bit sick after reading that.

 

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

 

I just... I'm sorry, but the "not okay" level in your post is off the charts and I just don't think I can even properly respond to something like that.

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anyone who believes abortion is ok should not only be steralized/fixed but they should also never be allowed to have children any other way and any they currently have should be removed from their care. if you think its ok to murder a child in the womb it is not a far step from believing those outside it are fair game as well. if someone were to do any of the things we believe it ok to to do unborn children to one who is outside the womb they would be arrested/imprisoned for life or executed. if the woman/girl is too young , unprepaired or w/e other reason they may have for killing a kid heres what they need to do suck it up stop being selfish give 9 months of your 70-90 year average lifespan to do the right thing so that child can have a life too. you dont even have to take the kid home from the hospital its legal to leave without them and the hospital can have them put up for adoption there are plenty of loving families looking for a child and you could be killing somones future pride and joy and/or the future husband/wife or best friend of another person you could be drasticly changing the futures of many people because youre too selfish to bring the baby into the world.

I hate the very idea of abortion. Yet I also hate and am disgusted by the idea of controlling anyone else s body for whatever reason. It is just not ok. I do not believe anyone has the right to make any personal health choices for any other person. And by person I mean legal consenting adult.

 

 

So by your opinion I should be sterilized and have my loved and wanted children taken away from me?

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I honestly am in shock that anybody could even think it was okay to post something so incredibly rude, offensive, and downright horrifying.

 

I actually feel a little bit sick after reading that.

 

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

 

I just... I'm sorry, but the "not okay" level in your post is off the charts and I just don't think I can even properly respond to something like that.

You and me both. I try not to lose faith in certain people, especially in that post where they say that abortion is cruel, yet they post horrific "ideas" that are even more cruel.

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anyone who believes abortion is ok should not only be steralized/fixed but they should also never be allowed to have children any other way and any they currently have should be removed from their care. if you think its ok to murder a child in the womb it is not a far step from believing those outside it are fair game as well. if someone were to do any of the things we believe it ok to to do unborn children to one who is outside the womb they would be arrested/imprisoned for life or executed. if the woman/girl is too young , unprepaired  or w/e other reason  they may have for killing a kid heres what they need to do suck it up stop being selfish give 9 months of your 70-90 year average lifespan to do the right thing so that child can have a life too. you dont even have to take the kid home from the hospital its legal to leave without them and the hospital can have them put up for adoption there are plenty of loving families looking for a child and you could be killing somones future pride and joy and/or the future husband/wife or best friend of another person you could be drasticly changing the futures of many people because youre too selfish to bring the baby into the world.

 

Just...W..T....F?! o_o

Hey I'll get in line for sterilization sign me up! biggrin.gif

 

*Really screwed up post though tbh. This is a terrifying view/ hardcore forced birth statement.*

 

I would respond with facts and logic but I don't think you would be able to reasonably, or heck, I'll go as far as to say intelligently discuss that. wink.gif

Edited by BlightWyvern

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anyone who believes abortion is ok should not only be steralized/fixed but they should also never be allowed to have children any other way and any they currently have should be removed from their care. if you think its ok to murder a child in the womb it is not a far step from believing those outside it are fair game as well. if someone were to do any of the things we believe it ok to to do unborn children to one who is outside the womb they would be arrested/imprisoned for life or executed. if the woman/girl is too young , unprepaired or w/e other reason they may have for killing a kid heres what they need to do suck it up stop being selfish give 9 months of your 70-90 year average lifespan to do the right thing so that child can have a life too. you dont even have to take the kid home from the hospital its legal to leave without them and the hospital can have them put up for adoption there are plenty of loving families looking for a child and you could be killing somones future pride and joy and/or the future husband/wife or best friend of another person you could be drasticly changing the futures of many people because youre too selfish to bring the baby into the world.

Forced-birth, much?

 

What about the people who would DIE if they carried to term? Don't they matter? Or is it just about the fetus?

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Forced-birth, much?

 

What about the people who would DIE if they carried to term? Don't they matter? Or is it just about the fetus?

But sparkles, you already have the answer

 

if the woman/girl is too young , unprepaired or w/e other reason they may have for killing a kid heres what they need to do suck it up stop being selfish give 9 months of your 70-90 year average lifespan to do the right thing so that child can have a life too

 

Because clearly the woman has no say in that matter no matter what if she gets pregnant. All her rights are taken away the instant she does. Clearly she has no value or worth anymore. She already lived her life now she needs to give it up to spawn/be an incubator for something she doesn't want. Clearly. dry.gif

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She already lived her life now she needs to give it up to spawn/be an incubator for something she doesn't want. Clearly.  dry.gif

I know you're being sarcastic, but it reminds me about the woman in Texas who was braindead but her body was being kept alive as a corpse-incubator against the wishes of not only her but her entire family and I am now very sad. sad.gif

Edited by Lythiaren

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I know you're being sarcastic, but it reminds me that I am very sad when I remember the woman in Texas who was braindead but her body was being kept alive as a corpse-incubator against the wishes of not only her but her entire family. T_T

Oh geez, yeah, I was following that case the entire way. That was some screwed up stuff to say the least. All the crap the family had to deal with, etc. :|

Edited by BlightWyvern

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