Abortion

[Fuzzbucket]

And there are a lot of abusers out there who have a lot invested in gaslighting their victims.

 

Telling someone that being offended when they've been attacked/oppressed is THEIR fault is typical behaviour from people who want to get away with the attacking and oppressing. It's a blatant silencing technique, which completely invalidates the pain or upset of the person who's been hurt.

Right on.

[High Lord November]

its only that, if you make it that, or want to see it as that.

No it isn't. That is 100% emotional manipulation (thanks for defining it for me, Sock). Pro-choice is the neutral option, allowing the woman to choose for herself. As soon as you put a personal agenda or put your personal opinion in there, especially when counselling someone who's looking into options, you are manipulating. You are forcing them to second-guess, and could make doubts appear in their mind, especially if you continue to press. You have to support their decision, no matter what it is, and counsel if asked but only if asked and only as far as needed. Because the consequences of emotional manipulation, in this situation, could be drastic.

 

[Cecona]

The fetus a no point in time harvests an entire organ, takes more blood than it needs or would kill the mother

I just wanna address this right here- PREGNANCY CAN KILL THE MOTHER. PREGNANCY IS A VERY VERY SERIOUS CONDITION THAT COMES WITH COUNTLESSS SIDE EFFECTS THAT ARE IN FACT HARMFUL AND CAN KILL THE HOST JUST LIKE ANY OTHER KIND OF PARASITE.

[Brite]

I just wanna address this right here- PREGNANCY CAN KILL THE MOTHER. PREGNANCY IS A VERY VERY SERIOUS CONDITION THAT COMES WITH COUNTLESSS SIDE EFFECTS THAT ARE IN FACT HARMFUL AND CAN KILL THE HOST JUST LIKE ANY OTHER KIND OF PARASITE.

Pretty much. Pregnancy was and still is dangerous for a lot of women.

[_Z_]

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[whitebaron]

No it isn't. That is 100% emotional manipulation (thanks for defining it for me, Sock). Pro-choice is the neutral option, allowing the woman to choose for herself. As soon as you put a personal agenda or put your personal opinion in there, especially when counselling someone who's looking into options, you are manipulating. You are forcing them to second-guess, and could make doubts appear in their mind, especially if you continue to press. You have to support their decision, no matter what it is, and counsel if asked but only if asked and only as far as needed. Because the consequences of emotional manipulation, in this situation, could be drastic.

again, assumptions. all counselling must be emotional manipulation and driven by the will to force birth.

 

except - not. I'll go search the brains in the trashcan now, thank you.

[Obscure_Trash]

again, assumptions. all counselling must be emotional manipulation and driven by the will to force birth.

This was the original quote which I put a name to:

 

So no, thank you very much, I don't need some more restrictions on my abortion, or for someone to ask "are you really sure?" People already do that, and it's called guilt-tripping and forcing a second-guess.

 

If that is your version of counseling, then yeah, that's emotionally manipulative and it belongs in the garbage.

 

I am all for family planning. But family planning is worlds apart from abuse like "sidewalk counseling" and restrictive, anti-reproductive rights laws that seek to tell pregnant people what's really best for them suggested by people who literally have no clue why someone might want an abortion.

Edited February 7, 2014 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Alpha1]

again, assumptions. all counselling must be emotional manipulation and driven by the will to force birth.

 

except - not. I'll go search the brains in the trashcan now, thank you.

 

So what do you want? Those "crisis pregnancy centers", which just guilt and coerce women to go through with the pregnancy? From what you've said previously, it sounds like it's out of bitterness. Their reasons are fine. It's none of their business to try to get them to reconsider. The sad part is that many of these people who want them to go through with it also won't hesitate to call for taking away all the stuff that helps them like HUD, SNAP, EITC, etc.

 

[High Lord November]

again, assumptions. all counselling must be emotional manipulation and driven by the will to force birth.

 

except - not. I'll go search the brains in the trashcan now, thank you.

No. Like Sock said, the page before you were talking about restricting abortions more because we'll apparently throw the fetus away without a second thought. If you're version of doing that is asking "Are you really sure?" (which is honestly the only way I can think of you doing that), then that's emotional abuse and not counselling.

 

Since you seemed to miss this part of my post, I'll quote it:

You have to support their decision, no matter what it is, and counsel if asked but only if asked and only as far as needed.

 

I know what real counselling is. Being there as an honest source of accurate information and supplying it as asked is counselling. Giving them a completely accurate range of open options that they currently have, without bias, is counselling. "Are you really sure" isn't counselling, it's trying to force them to change their opinion.

 

Or would you prefer to elaborate on just how you plan to "restrict" abortions more for people who'd "throw them away without a second thought"?

[KageSora]

Also and I'm just sayin', but...

 

If they'd "throw it away without a second thought"... Do you REALLY think they'd be good parents?

 

Or, for that matter, that they'd handle the pregnancy well and not possibly screw up the fetus with poor choices?

Edited February 7, 2014 by KageSora

[whitebaron]

I know what real counselling is. Being there as an honest source of accurate information and supplying it as asked is counselling. Giving them a completely accurate range of open options that they currently have, without bias, is counselling. "Are you really sure" isn't counselling, it's trying to force them to change their opinion.

I am pretty sure, that most of the fervent pro-choice people here would object to being given information on,how to raise kids//what they'd be in for if they don't abort. No matter how its given. Because clearly, thats "emotional abuse" already. Hence why I called it pro-abortion, not pro-choice, a few pages back.

 

 

Also, putting it as just "are you sure?"-counselling is what was implied by OTHERS. Noone ever asked me how I'd envision such a thing, and even if,they did, it probably would get invalidated by having no uterus.

 

 

Its literally impossible in this thread to voice an opinion, without getting run over at least five times.

[KageSora]

I am pretty sure, that most of the fervent pro-choice people here would object to being given information on,how to raise kids//what they'd be in for if they don't abort. No matter how its given. Because clearly, thats "emotional abuse" already. Hence why I called it pro-abortion, not pro-choice, a few pages back.

Again, did it ever occur to you that we are pro-choice, knowing we would abort, because we already have enough information to know that we would not be a good match for pregnancy and/or parenting?

[High Lord November]

I am pretty sure, that most of the fervent pro-choice people here would object to being given information on,how to raise kids//what they'd be in for if they don't abort. No matter how its given. Because clearly, thats "emotional abuse" already. Hence why I called it pro-abortion, not pro-choice, a few pages back.

 

 

Also, putting it as just "are you sure?"-counselling is what was implied by OTHERS. Noone ever asked me how I'd envision such a thing, and even if,they did, it probably would get invalidated by having no uterus.

 

 

Its literally impossible in this thread to voice an opinion, without getting run over at least five times.

I just did ask you how you would envision such a thing, but you haven't provided anything. I would like you to tell me what you meant, action-wise, then, because I don't see any other alternative.

 

I'm going to repeat this again, seeing as you somehow failed to understand it. I'll bold the important part that rebutes your comment:

 

I know what real counselling is. Being there as an honest source of accurate information and supplying it as asked (ETA: and needed) is counselling. Giving them a completely accurate range of open options that they currently have, without bias, is counselling. "Are you really sure" isn't counselling, it's trying to force them to change their opinion.

 

What part of giving all of the options and supporting my opinion no matter what is "pro-abortion"? I'd suggest looking up the dictionary definition of a counsellor.

 

If I am set on not having a baby, a counsellor needs to respect that choice and not do anything that could be seen as trying to influence me away from that decision. That is called manipulation. If I am unsure and ask what options are available to me, the counsellor needs to give me all of the options honestly and accurately. If I'm thinking of aborting, but aren't sure, then the counsellor needs to do the above as well. The counsellor should always stress that it is my own decision, and mine alone. I don't see how any of that is "pro-abortion".

 

 

 

It's you who's putting the "I'm getting shut down because I'm a guy" stigma on yourself. Please stop that and jump back into the discussion, please.

-We will debate with you 100% regardless of your gender

-In real life, outside of debate (i.e. this thread), your thoughts should not have as much of an effect/as heavily weighed because you are not stuck or affected with the consequenes

Edited February 8, 2014 by High Lord November

[Alpha1]

I am pretty sure, that most of the fervent pro-choice people here would object to being given information on,how to raise kids//what they'd be in for if they don't abort. No matter how its given. Because clearly, thats "emotional abuse" already. Hence why I called it pro-abortion, not pro-choice, a few pages back.

 

 

Also, putting it as just "are you sure?"-counselling is what was implied by OTHERS. Noone ever asked me how I'd envision such a thing, and even if,they did, it probably would get invalidated by having no uterus.

 

 

Its literally impossible in this thread to voice an opinion, without getting run over at least five times.

 

So what would they be told?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilty:_Liber...ault_on_America

 

"Arguably the most prominent chapter in the book is entitled, Victim of a Crime? Thank a Single Mother. In this chapter, Coulter argues that liberals passionately deify single mothers as though they are victims of happenstance who plod through their tough life experiences, when in reality, as she sees it, they are victimizers of the young children they bring into the world with the worst possible life chances by their engaging in willy-nilly and deviant sexual behaviors. She is also critical of the decision of single mothers not to give up their children for adoption when research shows that adopted children fare markedly better than non-adopted children of single mothers."

 

 

[Kestra15]

No, but they are reliant for almost everything as a fetus would for survival too. So please answer the second question.

 

Edit: Good to know at least some people aren't sexually biased it means a lot.

A brain-dead person is dead. There is no brain function. They are not trapped in their body or unable to communicate (as per locked-in syndrome or permanent vegatitive state). They are as dead as someone who has had a fatal heart attack or total respiratory collapse. A brain-dead person only 'lives' because we are animating their corpse through machinery. So it is very morally right to withdraw support.

They are a separate living being from the mother.

Completely separate - except for, you know, being implanted in the uterus and completely reliant on the mother biologically.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Kestra15

[Trope]

I am pretty sure, that most of the fervent pro-choice people here would object to being given information on,how to raise kids//what they'd be in for if they don't abort. No matter how its given. Because clearly, thats "emotional abuse" already. Hence why I called it pro-abortion, not pro-choice, a few pages back.

 

 

Also, putting it as just "are you sure?"-counselling is what was implied by OTHERS. Noone ever asked me how I'd envision such a thing, and even if,they did, it probably would get invalidated by having no uterus.

 

 

Its literally impossible in this thread to voice an opinion, without getting run over at least five times.

If younger me were to become pregnant and if I would not want to know what to do in that situation, I'd want someone to explain all my options to me: keeping the child, giving it up for adoption or aborting it. I would want the simple facts presented to me and then time to think it over and make my own choice. Cause that's what pro-choice is, keeping all the options open so the woman in question is able to choose.

 

However, the current me has already had a pregnancy scare and I've already thought over my options. Had my pregnancy test come back positive, I would have aborted. No, I don't want you to give me information on how to raise kids. I've thought over my options, made my own decision and don't want any more info. I most certainly don't want to be guilt-tripped or pressured into doing something I don't want to do.

 

You see the difference here? When someone asks for advice, give it to them: explain all the possible options to them; That includes keeping the baby. However, when someone has already made up their mind let them go through with that decision. Not respecting a choice already made is abuse in my book.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Trope

[Syaoransbear]

I am pretty sure, that most of the fervent pro-choice people here would object to being given information on,how to raise kids//what they'd be in for if they don't abort. No matter how its given. Because clearly, thats "emotional abuse" already. Hence why I called it pro-abortion, not pro-choice, a few pages back.

 

 

Also, putting it as just "are you sure?"-counselling is what was implied by OTHERS. Noone ever asked me how I'd envision such a thing, and even if,they did, it probably would get invalidated by having no uterus.

 

 

Its literally impossible in this thread to voice an opinion, without getting run over at least five times.

Why do you call it pro-abortion? Pro-abortion is wanting to force mothers to have abortions regardless of what the mother wants.

[whitebaron]

Why do you call it pro-abortion? Pro-abortion is wanting to force mothers to have abortions regardless of what the mother wants.

Because its how many people in here cone across when discusding - not to say that abortion is the most valid option,for just them, but also for everyone else. I've gone into detail on that a few page back, so I wont continue that line of thought any further because its my opinion on how others present their case - I cant change that anymore than many of the assumptions here that think because I said more counselling, I meant the guild-trip-type.

 

 

@alpha: that book might be a bit over the top, but I cam agree with the "we are thr poor victims" part very much. While its in NO WAY the majority, its still plenty (of women, in,general, not just single mothers) who try to play the victim catd.

Edited February 9, 2014 by whitebaron

[7Deadly$ins]

Find me one person who has said that abortion is the most valid option for everyone else. That isn't the same thing as everyone should have the option to abort.

[Htt71]

"Yes, this is a problem. The fact that the rights of women who are pregnant and their choice to possibly terminate a pregnancy occurring in their own body are even QUESTIONED is completely ridiculous. There must be so many brains in trash cans for such a ridiculous line of thinking. You can control someone else's body and decisions regarding private matters? Completely idiotic!"

 

Please do tell, if you're so passionate about abortion, why shouldn't anyone be able to debate how ethical or morally right/wrong it is? I can't control your body or anyone else's, but that doesn't mean I can't see different perspectives or attempt to have people see mine. In my opinion the fact that you question my right to freely debate abortion is idiotic. Why would you preach choice but be so narrow about the freedom of freedom of choice? Hmmm? Also, my brain is firmly inside of my skull, and I live in the USA.

[Htt71]

"@ssumppg-So you're totally OK with the opposite-someone with your mother's health problems is told, whelp, you're preggers, too bad it will probably kill you, you have to carry it anyway until you die/it's born?

 

I'm happy for you that your mom *CHOSE* not to, but if she had, it would've been so early, you *never would've been aware* of anything, let alone "life"."

 

Since I am sick and tired of hearing this, let me get it through, please! JUST BECAUSE YOU ARENT AWARE OF YOUR DEATH DOESNT MEAN YOU ARENT DYING! I have heard the, "Well you/I wouldn't be aware to be able to care..." We'll excuse me, but knowing I am alive is a miracle, and knowing that I might've been dead right now in another timeline, let's me have the knowledge to say you would be at least a little grateful to be alive rather than dead. Or is it just me who values life over death? Honestly I'm tired, tired of hearing this excuse for an argument. If your going to say abortion is morally right then don't play on the side of the people you're killing. It makes absolutely no sense, and is getting old.

 

((And a side note, can you people just not butcher someone's life story and opinion just once? I mean, she took the time to write and vividly tell us why she is grateful to be here, and of course you have the, "But this!" and the, "But that!" People who just completely negate the point this person is tryin to make. Take it for what it is once in a while. Dont be so defensive. Thanks ))

 

Edit:

"Its literally impossible in this thread to voice an opinion, without getting run over at least five times."

 

Amen, lol.

 

Thank you. I'll be watching as usual

Edited February 9, 2014 by Htt71

[KageSora]

Since I am sick and tired of hearing this, let me get it through, please! JUST BECAUSE YOU ARENT AWARE OF YOUR DEATH DOESNT MEAN YOU ARENT DYING! I have heard the, "Well you/I wouldn't be aware to be able to care..." We'll excuse me, but knowing I am alive is a miracle, and knowing that I might've been dead right now in another timeline, let's me have the knowledge to say you would be at least a little grateful to be alive rather than dead. Or is it just me who values life over death? Honestly I'm tired, tired of hearing this excuse for an argument. If your going to say abortion is morally right then don't play on the side of the people you're killing. It makes absolutely no sense, and is getting old.

I am sick and tired of hearing people argue that a I should care about the death of something that doesn't even have enough brain power to ever have comprehended that it ever had any sort of life at all, much less to be aware of the fact that it's dying.

 

If it's not aware that its' dying, it's not exactly suffering from the idea of being killed now is it?

 

And, actually, that comes off as insanely insensitive to the fact that there are people who honestly and truly wish they had been aborted because they hate themselves and their lives.

 

That's nice for you to be all happy to be alive. But not everybody actually is and not everybody can just magically make themselves happy to be alive. Plenty of people view it as a curse not a miracle.

 

No, you can't hear me say that I'm grateful to be alive--because, honestly, half the time I'm not and the other half of the time I'm neutral on it. I can't remember the last time I was actually happy to be alive, truly grateful for this life that I have to deal with... Well, I can't actually express how I feel about certain people because that'd get me warned.

[High Lord November]

Because its how many people in here cone across when discusding - not to say that abortion is the most valid option,for just them, but also for everyone else. I've gone into detail on that a few page back, so I wont continue that line of thought any further because its my opinion on how others present their case - I cant change that anymore than many of the assumptions here that think because I said more counselling, I meant the guild-trip-type.

 

 

@alpha: that book might be a bit over the top, but I cam agree with the "we are thr poor victims" part very much. While its in NO WAY the majority, its still plenty (of women, in,general, not just single mothers) who try to play the victim catd.

No one here is pro-abortion. The whole thing is emphasizing pro-choice. Your choice.

 

We talk about abortion all the time because there are many people who want to force people not to have abortion. Hence, we argue why abortion isn't wrong and why we should be able to let the mother choose.

 

Also, can you please tell me how you want to restrict people's abortions without manipulating them emotionally? I have yet to see how my interpretation was incorrect, and I'd honestly like to see what you really meant by it. I asked you before, but I have yet to see anything, but you were complaining about us taking the wrong interpretation of your post, which is a little bit counter-productive.

 

 

 

Since I am sick and tired of hearing this, let me get it through, please! JUST BECAUSE YOU ARENT AWARE OF YOUR DEATH DOESNT MEAN YOU ARENT DYING! I have heard the, "Well you/I wouldn't be aware to be able to care..." We'll excuse me, but knowing I am alive is a miracle, and knowing that I might've been dead right now in another timeline, let's me have the knowledge to say you would be at least a little grateful to be alive rather than dead. Or is it just me who values life over death? Honestly I'm tired, tired of hearing this excuse for an argument. If your going to say abortion is morally right then don't play on the side of the people you're killing. It makes absolutely no sense, and is getting old.

 

Missing the point. If you were aborted, you wouldn't know that you're alive. Knowing that you're alive right now is great, but if you were aborted, you would have never existed. That's the thing; fetuses don't exist as a person. They're just parasitic cells. It's fine to terminate parasitic cells, because they are just cells that are using your body against your will.

 

 

 

And a side note, can you people just not butcher someone's life story and opinion just once? I mean, she took the time to write and vividly tell us why she is grateful to be here, and of course you have the, "But this!" and the, "But that!" People who just completely negate the point this person is tryin to make. Take it for what it is once in a while. Dont be so defensive. Thanks

 

That is great for her. It isn't the best for everyone. That's the whole thing with pro-choice.

 

 

 

Please do tell, if you're so passionate about abortion, why shouldn't anyone be able to debate how ethical or morally right/wrong it is? I can't control your body or anyone else's, but that doesn't mean I can't see different perspectives or attempt to have people see mine. In my opinion the fact that you question my right to freely debate abortion is idiotic. Why would you preach choice but be so narrow about the freedom of freedom of choice? Hmmm? Also, my brain is firmly inside of my skull, and I live in the USA.

 

This confuses me. Can you tell me what we're doing right now? Is it not debate? So you're allowed to say that you want to force people not to have abortions, but we can't say that it's ridiculous that people want to do so? Huh.

 

 

Also, if you want to quote people's posts, highlight everything you're quoting and press "Quote" up in the Code Buttons bar.

[sparkle10184]

If you were aborted you wouldn't be losing anything, because you never had anything. Fetuses don't know what life is like yet so if it is aborted it's not going to be losing some part of life it had. (e.g. memories) On the other hand, if the mother dies she will know she is dying and she has the ability to feel emotions. She will be leaving behind her family and friends, and everything she had in life.

[Psyduсk]

Touchy feely subject, but a lot of good arguments. I like this.

My stance on this is pretty bland, unfortunately.

 

I believe in equal and unlimited reproductive rights.

If a mother wants to abort her pregnancy, then she should have every right to do so.

Also, it goes without saying, that banishing abortion is nothing but troublesome, seeing as the problem stems not from the practice but from people's irresponsibility with their 'junk'.

 

Rather then putting resources towards finding and taking down illegal abortion clinics (which are a real health hazard seeing as the majority are run by unqualified "professionals"). We should invest in better sex-ed and other measures towards avoiding unwanted pregnancies altogether. In addition, abortion clinics should be made available, but regulated to ensure that the people working within them are qualified and well equipped.

 

As for abortion as an act, be that moral or immoral, it's all very context sensitive. But I personally wouldn't feel any more guilty over a dead fetus then I do over swatting a mosquito.