Abortion

[Htt71]

No... I'm simply saying know the it's a possible outcome. Sex is fun, let's be honest, but a child is a possibility.

[hazeh]

Uh, yes. All brain-dead people should be taken off life support because they are DEAD.

And will only ever be DEAD.

[smileytechie]

Also, to finally answer this.

 

 

You say the child has rights... So, I'm guessing that you're okay with the idea of people being forcibly strapped down and having blood and stuff that they can live without harvested from their bodies against their will provided it will save a life, right? You're totally okay with that?

 

The fetus a no point in time harvests an entire organ, takes more blood than it needs or would kill the mother, and it obviously wasn't against your will, if you have sex a biproduct HAPPENS TO BE A CHILD! Also, when did I say that the woman had no rights? Because I just made a post that explains my position even more. There's your answer.

 

Sorry it's kinda blunt and offensive, I'm in a bad mood. Read my last post and you will see why.

It still is using the mother's organs and blood AGAINST HER WILL. Yes, against her will, because consent to sex is NOT consent to pregnancy.

 

So, if we forcibly take blood from people, as long as it's not more than we need and won't kill the person, it's okay?

 

Normally, people have the right to decide what to do with their organs. They cannot be forced to let someone else use them. But you say that pregnant people don't have that right.

[Htt71]

Please. Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said that a pregnant woman has no rights, quite the contrary. Read my above if you don't believe me.

 

To reply to the above above, what about orphanages? As mentioned above?

 

Also, is it just me or is the fact that I'm a man one of the main reasons I'm completely disagree with (a few exceptions)? It seems if I were a woman things would be different as it would be MY choice. Though, I would still choose life. Anyone else?

 

((Sidenote: I hate autocorrect))

Edited February 6, 2014 by Htt71

[Shienvien]

So now we should go around "Aborting" brain-dead people because they can't think or feel? Is that morally right?

Brain-dead people are dead. The morally right course of action as I see it is to do with the remaining body what the individual has wished, lacking that ask friends or relatives what to do with the corpse, and if that is not possible, either, just give the person the kind of burial that fits the one's culture.

 

None of the scenarios you proposed as "if abortion is allowed, should this be possible, too?" are applicable, since these people aren't part of another humans physical body. Orphans aren't attached of the orphanage-owners physical body.

 

 

Edit: I never noticed your gender sign, and I pay no regard to whether the speaker is male or female in conversations.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Shienvien

[Htt71]

No, but they are reliant for almost everything as a fetus would for survival too. So please answer the second question.

 

Edit: Good to know at least some people aren't sexually biased it means a lot.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Htt71

[Shienvien]

It is not the same kind of reliance, and thusly isn't comparable. There is some kind of dependency in both cases, but only one permanently affects the hosting person's physical (and mental) health and cannot be transferred.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Shienvien

[High Lord November]

Please. Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said that a pregnant woman has no rights,  quite the contrary. Read my above if you don't believe me.

 

To reply to the above above, what about orphanages? As mentioned above?

 

Also, is it just me or is the fact that I'm a man one of the main reasons I'm completely disagree with (a few exceptions)? It seems if I were a woman things would be different as it would be MY choice. Though, I would still choose life. Anyone else?

 

((Sidenote: I hate autocorrect))

You can say that, but you need to look at the direct consequences of what you're saying. If you are saying that the fetus should never be able to be aborted, then you are also saying that, through reaction, the mother has less rights than a corpse as well as the fetus.

 

The issue I have with your view is that you admit that most of the deciding factors are subjective (they have a soul upon conception, if they're a person or not, etc.), but you want to force your subjective view on other people. A pro-choicer wants to allow each person to make the right choice for themselves, whether it's to have the baby or not. This is because abortion is a gradient and is very personal based on each individual. A force-birther wants no one to be able to abort, regardless of their personal opinion. The opposite of a "force-birther" is a "force-abortionist". Do you see how ridiculous that would be and how much that would encroach on my rights as a pregnant woman, to be forced to abort every time? Exact same thing here.

 

Orphanages are terrible places for a child. Someone care to bring those statistics back up? And I'd love to hear about an orphanage that'll take my pregnancy away.

 

 

No, we disagree with you because we disagree with your view. This debate has nothing to do with your gender.

 

Your opinion should be weighed less in reality because you can never become pregnant and therefore the consequences of your actions do not, cannot, and will never affect you.

Edited February 6, 2014 by High Lord November

[Htt71]

"No, we disagree with you because we disagree with your view. This debate has nothing to do with your gender.

 

Your opinion should be weighed less in reality because you can never become pregnant and therefore the consequences of your actions do not, cannot, and will never affect you."

 

Nothing to do with my gender, however my gender causes my opinion to be weighed less... Hmmm...

[HeatherMarie]

Ugh. I keep following this thread even when I know I shouldn't.

 

Bottom line is, if a woman with an unplanned pregnancy is desperate enough to keep her mental and physical health in tact, she *will* abort, in any way possible, and making it illegal only makes it more dangerous. That's really all there is to it.

 

This is MY body, and MY choice. Frankly I think it's rather *sickening* that *anyone* thinks they should have *any* type of control over a stranger's body. Making abortion illegal does just that; You have a parasite growing inside you that might *kill* you, and legally you are being forced to carry/feed/nourish/provide for that thing whether or not your body is ready for it. Frankly, it's sickening.

[Sadako]

"No, we disagree with you because we disagree with your view. This debate has nothing to do with your gender.

 

Your opinion should be weighed less in reality because you can never become pregnant and therefore the consequences of your actions do not, cannot, and will never affect you."

 

Nothing to do with my gender, however my gender causes my opinion to be weighed less... Hmmm...

Your opinion is not being weighed less because you are a man and we all hate men. It is not being weighed less at all. In fact, men's opinions are weighted much more than women's opinions all the time, in all spheres.

 

Your opinion should be weighed less in this debate because the fact that you are a man means you do not understand some of the basic things we are discussing, for instance, living with the knowledge that your right to control your own body can be taken away from you at any time.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Sadako

[hazeh]

Orphans aren't using someone's body against their will, and they are already born children who have proven to survive outside of the womb. Not comparable.

Same with hospitalized patients.

(And again, dead people (aka, brain dead people) are dead people, but even dead they retain the right to their bodies. I.e., you cannot use their body parts without their consent, even after death)

 

Also, yes, if you are not apart of the afflicted party, your opinion will not and will never (or rather, should never) carry the same weight as the actual afflicted party in discussion. That's how it works.

 

[whitebaron]

Have we gone full circle yet again to blaming men? Not yet?

The worst thing about this thread: people ain't arguing, especially the pro-choice ones.

You're throwing around mantras that are not at all replies to what your opposite party said.

 

Which makes me stand even more by my previous statement: this thread makes me very much to regulate abortions more. Not to harm the mother, but to make more informed choices. Because clearly, someone who's unable to counter simple lines of thought on topic will have a hard time thinking about the choices you're about to make. Also, dont get started on people with health issues: its a minority. Most abortions happen due to ew, baby, <enter fast reason here>

[Sadako]

Most abortions happen due to ew, baby, <enter fast reason here>

No. No. Most abortions happen due to poverty.

 

I feel like I just said something about men not being particularly qualified to make informed decisions about women's lives.

 

And as for using "mantras"... well, if we have to repeat something dozens of times to be heard, it's not our fault if you get sick of hearing it.

[ssumppg]

Htt71 already shared most of how I feel about the subject (thank you, sir). But there are some other things I would like to add.

 

First of all, I have come to the realization that the basis for arguments on either side of these controversial topics boil down to two basic views about the human race: either we are miracles, or we are highly evolved animals. Either we have the potential to overcome the limits of our physical bodies (and all the chemical reactions therein) and our environments to achieve the impossible and live on a higher plane than the rest of life on Earth, or we are primarily governed by these things and are merely consumers of the world we live on. And you know what? Nothing short of a life-altering experience is going to change a person's view about something that basic. So I'm not even going to try.

 

I'm just going to share my first-hand experience with abortion and leave it at that.

 

I say my first-hand experience, but it's not what you think. I wasn't the one choosing whether or not to have an abortion - my mom was.

 

Years before I was born, my mom suffered from hemorrhagic pancreatitis. A cyst formed on her pancreas and ruptured, causing her digestive juices to eat away at her internal organs. She barely survived the ordeal and became insulin dependent as a result. Her family also has a history of depression, high blood pressure, breast and ovarian cancer, heart disease, and stroke.

 

When she found out she was pregnant with me, she went to a local OBGYN. After looking at her medical history and that of her family's, they strongly advised her to abort me.

 

They told her to kill me.

 

This is why I'm pro-life. My own mother was told by medical professionals to terminate my chance to live. I cannot tell you how horrifying that feels.

 

Yes an unborn child in its first trimester is only a group of cells. But those cells already have an entirely different set of DNA. They are a separate living being from the mother. They're growing, changing, developing into a human being with unlimited potential.

 

And unless the mother was raped, she was actively and knowingly involved in putting them there.

 

Every action has a natural consequence. The woman who chose to have sex also chose whatever consequences came with it. Pregnancy is always a possible consequence of having sex. If you had an allergic reaction to mosquito bites that was so severe it was debilitating or even deadly, I doubt you would risk going camping and just lather on the bug spray. So if pregnancy is such a horrible ordeal, why then would you risk getting pregnant and just "use protection"?

 

And as for the life of the child after birth, well, that just goes back to whether or not you believe that humans can rise above their circumstances and physical limitations. My childhood was very traumatic. I have Erb's palsy, a couple learning disabilities, and a developmental delay. I grew up in an environment where I was severely verbally abused on a regular basis, and I still haven't fully recovered from it.

 

And, even with all the hardships and trauma I've been through, I am still infinitely grateful each and every day for the opportunity I have to be alive.

Edited February 6, 2014 by ssumppg

[Obscure_Trash]

either we are miracles, or we are highly evolved animals.

 

Unsure why you cut out any overlap between these two? The fact that life evolved at all is a miracle. The right thing had to happen at the right place in the right time. Life is amazing.

 

Years before I was born, my mom suffered from hemorrhagic pancreatitis. A cyst formed on her pancreas and ruptured, causing her digestive juices to eat away at her internal organs. She barely survived the ordeal and became insulin dependent as a result. Her family also has a history of depression, high blood pressure, breast and ovarian cancer, heart disease, and stroke.

 

When she found out she was pregnant with me, she went to a local OBGYN. After looking at her medical history and that of her family's, they strongly advised her to abort me.

 

They told her to kill me.

 

This is why I'm pro-life. My own mother was told by medical professionals to terminate my chance to live. I cannot tell you how horrifying that feels.

 

I'm glad your mother had the right to choose what to do with her own body. I'm unsure why this made you be pro-life, though? It's not like some pro-choice terrorist rushed at her with scissors to made sure little-fetus-you died. She was given a medical opinion on her medical condition and allowed to make a decision on her own.

 

Your mom had a hard pregnancy and she was dang lucky to get through it just fine in the end(? - I'm unclear on this, you kinda trailed off from your mom, which is pretty disappointing considering it was her body and her choice). See, because abortion isn't about you, it's about the pregnant person. I'm glad that you appreciate the chance at life you were given, but pro-life don't save lives. Pregnant people denied an abortion are less likely to leave an abusive relationship. They're also more likely to fall into poverty.

 

The majority of people who want children are unable to adopt, and as it is, only 2-3% of children [this was 2010, in 2011 this dropped to 1-2%] given up at birth to be adopted through the state are actually adopted. The rest stay in the system until they die or age out, statistically going through at least one abusive foster home.

 

1 in 3 [children in foster care] will tell a social worker that they wish they had been aborted. 16% of those under 12 will attempt to commit suicide and fail. Another 9% will succeed. Of those that fail, 86% will attempt again, even if removed from the foster family they were with at the time. In foster kids 12-18, 82% will attempt suicide before aging out, of those who do not die prior to reaching 18. in 94% of these cases, they will state that they wish they had never been born, or wish they had been aborted.

 

(United States Child Protective Services Inter-State Study of Child Welfare in Foster Care, 2010)

 

Every action has a natural consequence. The woman who chose to have sex also chose whatever consequences came with it. Pregnancy is always a possible consequence of having sex.

 

A child should not be a punishment. I value children (and adults!) too much to do that to them, to put them through that.

 

Just because it's a consequence doesn't mean you have to go through with it. It just means it may happen and, luckily for us, there are steps to take if you can not deal with that consequence.

 

And every day I am infinitely grateful for the opportunity I have to be alive.

 

I am glad that life's struggles have not managed to bring you down! But please do not place your experiences on everyone. Humans are diverse. We have different sensitivities, capabilities, and experiences. We are different people. We cannot all deal with or go through the same things.

[prpldrgnfr]

@ssumppg-So you're totally OK with the opposite-someone with your mother's health problems is told, whelp, you're preggers, too bad it will probably kill you, you have to carry it anyway until you die/it's born?

 

I'm happy for you that your mom *CHOSE* not to, but if she had, it would've been so early, you *never would've been aware* of anything, let alone "life".

[Infinis]

If you had an allergic reaction to mosquito bites that was so severe it was debilitating or even deadly, I doubt you would risk going camping and just lather on the bug spray.

 

People deal with this particular analogy every day. In fact there's even an emergency injection of epinephrine (adrenaline) that severely allergic people sometimes carry on their person just for this kind of analogy.

 

Just because people are allergic to a common thing does not mean that have to stay holed up inside. I actually am mildly allergic to mosquito bites but I still go outside - I just wear long pants and sleeves, the necessary precautions to help avoid bites.

 

So if having a child would be too great a burden for you, why then would you risk getting pregnant and just "use protection"?

 

Along similar lines, why is it okay to use a pregnancy as punishment for a woman's perceived chosen consequences?

 

Choosing to have sex is not choosing or consenting to pregnancy. Pregnancy and children should never be used as punishment.

 

Sex is not a sin. It is a natural thing. People are going to have sex. The best and most effective way to reducing abortion rates is widely available and affordable contraception - this cannot be stressed enough.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

I'm not seeing anyone here preaching misandry. This debate centers wholly around the rights of women and fetuses. It infringes upon the basic right of bodily autonomy to force a woman to carry a fetus she does not want, pure and simple. Should men have so much say in a woman's reproduction and reproductive rights? No, I don't think so. Men cannot and will never experience pregnancy or any of its side effects, and as a result are unable to fully understand it (in much the same way that I can't really understand what it's like to have male anatomy because I don't have male anatomy).

 

Why is it okay to take away the rights of anyone because you care more about the thing growing inside her that is not even sentient yet? Why should something that isn't aware of its own existence trump the rights of the mother who is sentient and has been for a long time? Why is it okay to disregard the reasons a woman might be getting an abortion because of one's own subjective moral values? Why is it okay to force your subjective moral values regarding reproduction on others?

 

Also, I'd like to say that what goes on in any woman's uterus is really only her business and her business alone, with a doctor and stable partner involved as needed.

[Sadako]

@ssumppg: All the anecdotes in the world don't change that somewhere out there was another woman who was told that, and for her, an abortion was the right choice. Or that there's another woman out there who already works three jobs and just can't support a third kid because it would mean the two she already has would starve.

 

No one would try to make a law forcing women to have abortions in the case of medical problems. If doctors recommend it, the woman can always choose to go against that advice and do what is right for her particular individual life, even if it means risking her life. That is all anyone is asking to be able to do.

 

As to pregnancy being a risk of sex, yes it is, and people who have sex and use protection are adults making choices about their own bodies and sexualities. I am a fully grown human. Are you really going to try to tell me that because there's a 0.1% chance my IUD will fail that I can't ever have sex with my husband of ten years in our own home? Because it is exactly impossible to get people to do what you want them to in their own bedrooms and there is no point in trying. And if I did get pregnant? I might not need an abortion because I'm a middle class white woman with a stable income. I might decide that I'm just not healthy enough either emotionally or physically to be a mother, and that's valid too, because you don't know how abusive or depressive or alcoholic I might be.

 

Abortion is no one's first plan. The people in the thread arguing that it should remain legal and accessible aren't getting knocked up every month so they can swing on down to the abortion clinic for a good time on a saturday night--they're arguing that women in desperate situations should be allowed to (legally and safely) make a desperate horrible choice to save themselves.

[hazeh]

My mother was 18 when she got pregnant with me. My grandparents were abusive, unsupportive, and my mother is a lesbian who got too drunk at a party. She was in college and working 2 jobs to support herself because she got help from NO ONE.

 

When she found out she was pregnant with me, she was wholly considering getting an abortion because she flat out could not afford it and did not feel like she was ready for it.

 

She weighed her options, made her choice, and surprisingly I am here today. It was extremely difficult for my mother. We were on welfare for two years, struggling just to make it by-- had she not met my other mom, I don't know what kind of hellhole we'd be in right now.

 

Thing is, I am staunchly PRO-CHOICE. It was my mother's choice to abort or keep me, and I would never EVER take that decision away from her. Had I been aborted, the world would continue on, and perhaps I would find my life in some other person, some other time.

Sure, thinking that at some point you might not have existed is a scary thing.

 

And you're lucky. Not everyone in your position feels lucky to be alive. Many, MANY people in your position would have been grateful to have been aborted instead. And this is evidenced by the countless numbers of CHILDREN who kill THEMSELVES or attempt to because they cannot handle the difficulties of their lives.

Your experience is not someone else's, so trying to dictate someone else's choice because of your own unique experience is... well, that just comes across to me as selfish.

[Infinis]

Something tells me this abortion argument wouldn't even exist if religion didn't exist and/or men were also physically affected by a woman's pregnancy

 

I feel this way too.

 

The fact that you assume everyone who is pro life is religious is laughable. I mean really, did you base your entire stance on the fact that some of us happen to be religious? This is simply rediculous, try again.

 

The thing is it's not ridiculous.

 

There is not a single non-religious argument for anti-choice that I have ever come across. In fact all of the anti-choice arguments about abortion that they try to pass as science are actually poor science and bad medicine riddled with half-truths and outright lies intended to deceive and frighten. A good example is the idea that having abortions increases the risk of breast cancer...which is a flat out lie - no such link exists.

 

If you (or anyone really) can find me a non-religious argument against abortion, I'd be glad to hear and consider it.

[Sirikith]

Pregnancy is always a possible consequence of having sex. If you had an allergic reaction to mosquito bites that was so severe it was debilitating or even deadly, I doubt you would risk going camping and just lather on the bug spray. So if pregnancy is such a horrible ordeal, why then would you risk getting pregnant and just "use protection"?

 

Driving a car can result in having an accident and get you killed. So you use the seat-belt and and airbag-calculated risk, when you wanna go longer distances you can't walk, bycicle or go by train.

 

Are you implying people who don't want children should be excluded from having sex? one of the most wonderful physical experiences and bonding rituals for couples? not gonna happen, sex drive is one of the most basic instincts ever. So we use best protection we can (I myself are on the pill until I can afford to get my endometrium burned out, my tubes tied, and a copper IUD fit for non-birther women. Then, getting pregnant will definitely be impossible-no eggs getting through, nothing to implant in, and an ovacide/spermicide and nidation blocker) until then, I'll enjoy having sex while avoiding pregnancy best I can- Should my method of protection ever fail (because, life generally includes risks) I'd abort. simple as that. I like having sex to much not to do it. same as eating meat. My body, my choice.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Sirikith

[Fuzzbucket]

Have we gone full circle yet again to blaming men? Not yet?

The worst thing about this thread: people ain't arguing, especially the pro-choice ones.

You're throwing around mantras that are not at all replies to what your opposite party said.

 

Which makes me stand even more by my previous statement: this thread makes me very much to regulate abortions more. Not to harm the mother, but to make more informed choices. Because clearly, someone who's unable to counter simple lines of thought on topic will have a hard time thinking about the choices you're about to make. Also, dont get started on people with health issues: its a minority. Most abortions happen due to ew, baby, <enter fast reason here>

NO, not blaming men as such. Many of the most thoughtful pro-choice posts in this thread are from men, too. And some of the most horrible pro-forced-birth ones from women. Some from very young women, though, who will (yes I KNOW this) often change their minds as they mature. My own two would have thought abortion a terrible idea and one said she could and would never ever. When she was 15. Times change. She has met many women who had had to make that choice, and a few adopted people, and people who have spent their lives in care being abused and uncared for. She is now very much pro choice. That adoption/orphanage system is broken and no child should have to be put through it - ever.

 

BUT - thing one - a man is 50% responsible for that unwanted pregnancy. Fact. A man does NOT have to go through that pregnancy - a man can in fact just walk and leave her to it. A man CANNOT be pregnant (yet). Fact. Because of that a man cannot have the experience of the sheer terror of being pregnant when you know you cannot cope with it all.

 

And what most of us pro-choice WOMEN in the thread are objecting to is that the politicians and the rabid anti-choicers who are coming out with insane "facts" like the one about a woman not being able to get pregnant if she is raped because her body knows how to prevent that, and the like are almost all - men. Who will NEVER be in that position. But who want to control those of us who can. Yes there are some wonderful male pro-choice advocates. Bless them all. And there are many men who stand by woman who are carrying their children. But there are a lot of men who do neither - and who want to control women just the same. And there are some female political nutters too. THOSE are the people I blame - and most of them happen to be men.

 

And I do think - along with some others in this thread - that if there were the same physical consequences to unplanned sex for men as there are for women, things would be a lot different.

Edited February 6, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[InugamiZERO]

I asked a few family members what their view is (yes I'm the only male view here but I come from a large family with 8 Males and 47 Females, that's only the ones in the same county as me)

Also my family only takes out of the System we do Not Add to the System

 

Mum: Abortion is wrong, the only time to get an abortion is if a guarantee of Death for mother or child But each woman has the right to choose for herself.

 

1st Sister: Abortion is a Difficult Emotional Decision for a woman and it is hers alone.

 

2nd Sister: Abortion is wrong and the s should be punished. (she is a hypocrite and will change her view should she need one, and I know of some of the things she did as a teen, Things NO Sibling should know)

 

Me: Abortion is the right of each Individual Pregnant Woman, if she so chooses.

 

Younger Sister: I don't care if they want one, they can get one.

 

 

And the blaming men thing only comes up when someone says you don't listen to me because I'm male

Edited February 6, 2014 by InugamiZERO

[brairtrainer]

NO, not blaming men as such. Many of the most thoughtful pro-choice posts in this thread are from men, too. And some of the most horrible pro-forced-birth ones from women. Some from very young women, though, who will (yes I KNOW this) often change their minds as they mature.

 

-snip-

Pulling out Fuzz's statement to add I was one of the crowd of young women when I was younger. It took me years to discover and understand the medical risks that could be dealt with by aborting. Even longer to understand why women would get an abortion in the first place.

 

It took me even longer to understand how close I came to losing my mother because she believes that abortion is enheriently wrong and should never happen. A world where abortion isn't avalible is scary to me, very scary.