Abortion

[Htt71]

Pro Life (Htt71 Defined): A pro lifer is someone who expresses sympathy for the mother of the unwanted or otherwise would have a poor life, but still want the mother to go through with the pregnancy. We shouldn't force this upon her, but we should instead offer her all of the supportive care she needs to make the best decision possible. If she chooses life, great ! If not, I feel saddened by this, but will still want the mother to be happy.

 

Side note:

My opinions are for preservation of life, I will quote the bible, (I'm religious) use research data (science is awesome), and try to keep calm. I have the mother AND the fetus in mind. Meaning I want both to live happy lives. I'm against underage sex (heavily) and feel no added sympathy should one get pregnant, it's your fault. However, I still offer the same hand I offer to others of support and care about what your choice is, still. (this is all I can think of for now. I can add more if you want )

 

Side Side note:

Sorry for switching points of view multiple times.

 

Happy with the definition?

Edited January 31, 2014 by Htt71

[KageSora]

Pro Life (Htt71 Defined): A pro lifer is someone who expresses sympathy for the mother of the unwanted or otherwise would have a poor life, but still want the mother to go through with the pregnancy. We shouldn't force this upon her, but we should instead offer her all of the supportive care she needs to make the best decision possible. If she chooses life, great ! If not, I feel saddened by this, but will still want the mother to be happy.

 

Side note:

My opinions are for preservation of life, I will quote the bible, (I'm religious) use research data (science is awesome), and try to keep calm. I have the mother AND the fetus in mind. Meaning I want both to live happy lives. I'm against underage sex (heavily) and feel no added sympathy should one get pregnant, it's your fault. However, I still offer the same hand I offer to others of support and care about what your choice is, still. (this is all I can think of for now. I can add more if you want )

 

Side Side note:

Sorry for switching points of view multiple times.

 

Happy with the definition?

That's a good view--too many people wear the "pro life" title who only care about the birth of the child.

 

 

However, when you feel the pregnancy is "their fault", are you giving 50% of the blame to the father? Because half the blame is his--a pregnancy cannot occur without a male and a female. (Well, not under natural means in humans, anyway.)

[Fuzzbucket]

Pro Life (Htt71 Defined): A pro lifer is someone who expresses sympathy for the mother of the unwanted or otherwise would have a poor life, but still want the mother to go through with the pregnancy. We shouldn't force this upon her, but we should instead offer her all of the supportive care she needs to make the best decision possible. If she chooses life, great ! If not, I feel saddened by this, but will still want the mother to be happy.

 

Side note:

My opinions are for preservation of life, I will quote the bible, (I'm religious) use research data (science is awesome), and try to keep calm. I have the mother AND the fetus in mind. Meaning I want both to live happy lives. I'm against underage sex (heavily) and feel no added sympathy should one get pregnant, it's your fault. However, I still offer the same hand I offer to others of support and care about what your choice is, still. (this is all I can think of for now. I can add more if you want )

 

Side Side note:

Sorry for switching points of view multiple times.

 

Happy with the definition?

So are you up to take on that unwanted child when it is born, and supporting it financially ? Because the current system for fostering and adoption is TOTALLY broken.

 

And - what about the father, as Kage Sora says ?

[Htt71]

Yes. If the child was unwanted it is both the mother's and the father's fault, they created it after all. Now, fault is a very negative term, but I mean it as a neutral. You caused it.

 

And I would take up the unwanted child willingly, however I do not have the current provisions for such child. I would love to though, if I could.

[Fuzzbucket]

Yes. If the child was unwanted it is both the mother's and the father's fault, they created it after all. Now, fault is a very negative term, but I mean it as a neutral. You caused it.

 

And I would take up the unwanted child willingly, however I do not have the current provisions for such child. I would love to though, if I could.

But that's exactly the thing, see. Everyone who wants the woman to carry to term then turns around and says she has to support it - even if they dp qualify it by saying they would if they could but they can't (and most don't even say that.) And if she CANNOT - for whatever reason - it ends up in the dreadful fostering/adoption system.

 

Abortion IS a better option than that.

[KageSora]

And I would take up the unwanted child willingly, however I do not have the current provisions for such child. I would love to though, if I could.

That's actually a reason plenty of people abort--they would love to have the child, but they don't have the resources for such a child at the time. And the alternative is dumping it in the system.

 

 

Since, sadly, many who claim to be "pro-life" themselves would actually refuse to take such a child even if they could provide for it because then the mother isn't "punished"--they see children as punishments, sadly.

[HeatherMarie]

That's actually a reason plenty of people abort--they would love to have the child, but they don't have the resources for such a child at the time. And the alternative is dumping it in the system.

THIS is a point I don't see talked about often enough. Women don't just turn to abortion when the fetus is unwanted; Plenty of women who would otherwise *love* to have a child, to raise a child, end up getting abortions because they *can't* raise a child. Financial issues (including things such as adequate/stable housing, a stable job, plus all the other stuff included in actually providing for another human being) are HUGE and aren't something that can just be dealt with somehow because they want the child bad enough. Same goes for medical issues; I personally want VERY badly to have a child, but if I were to get pregnant I'd know without a doubt that my mental status would not allow me to be responsible for another human being.

 

In those situations, the choices are abortion or system. There IS no other choice. And voluntarily throwing a child into the system is, imo, downright abusive. And statistics back up that view, unfortunately.

[Likewise]

Pro Life (Htt71 Defined): A pro lifer is someone who expresses sympathy for the mother of the unwanted or otherwise would have a poor life, but still want the mother to go through with the pregnancy. We shouldn't force this upon her, but we should instead offer her all of the supportive care she needs to make the best decision possible. If she chooses life, great ! If not, I feel saddened by this, but will still want the mother to be happy.

This is a rather odd definition of pro-life. Your emphasis appears to be on the choice of the mother, because even though you would prefer her to have the child you support her choice not to, so it sounds more like you're pro-choice.

[KageSora]

This is a rather odd definition of pro-life. Your emphasis appears to be on the choice of the mother, because even though you would prefer her to have the child you support her choice not to, so it sounds more like you're pro-choice.

The thing is, pro-life and pro-choice are not mutually exclusive--they're not total opposites. They're just painted as such because of the groups that they generally represent. (I mean, would you WANT to be part of a group that calls itself "anti-choice", even though that's actually what a lot of "pro-life" people are? Or "forced-birth"?)

 

I consider myself pro-life, because to me you HAVE to be pro-choice to be truly pro-life. To be truly pro-life, you have to want the best possible quality of life not just for the potential child, but for the mother as well. The best possible quality of life for people is the true pro-life stance. And I don't really feel like a fetus is a person yet, so...

 

That aside, if the mother is choosing to abort, it's likely that it will maintain or improve her current quality of life, and will likely prevent the potential child from having a lesser quality of life.

 

 

There's a reason I use pro-forced-birth/pro-birth for people who are simply anti-abortion but don't really care beyond that. To me, you can't be pro-life if you don't care what happens to the mother or if you don't care about what happens after the child is born. If that's the case, all you care about is the birth.

[Htt71]

In response to anyone who claims I have pro-choice beliefs - No. There is a very, VERY distinct difference. A pro choice person wants the mother to do what's best in her opinion, and a pro-life person wants the mother to choose to not abort the child. I believe it's just PLAIN WRONG to get an abortion. Yes, I said it. However, I do also not think that just because you got an abortion you are the scum of the Earth. I think mothers alike should be treated to best suit their cases. Whichever that may be. So, yes, I really hate the idea and practice of abortion, but am I going to murder mothers and abortion doctors because of it? Hell no.

 

#ControversialOpinionsSaidLogically

Edited February 3, 2014 by Htt71

[7Deadly$ins]

So, in essence, you think choices should be had. Pro-choice doesn't say anything about what choice you should make, it just says that there should be choices. A great, great chunk of the pro-life doctrine is about making abortion illegal, so if you say that you're pro-life, that is what people will assume.

[Htt71]

Assume away. If it's illegal all the merrier.

 

 

EDIT: Also, let's not make this spiral into a heated discussion, because all that's going I happen is another battle of "Forced births are wrong, and the adoption system is " and "It's not your decision to play God and kill an innocent life form" alright?

Edited February 4, 2014 by Htt71

[7Deadly$ins]

So if it's illegal, then how is that following what you said about "mothers should be treated to best suit their cases"?

[Htt71]

I'd love to see it abolished. However, it isn't, and therefore until it is I'd much rather have happy people to be better inclined to view pro life as a good party than people seeing us as communist ***s who hate mothers. (I've been PM'd the latter once, to be honest.)

[7Deadly$ins]

That doesn't answer my question.

[Obscure_Trash]

In response to anyone who claims I have pro-choice beliefs - No. There is a very, VERY distinct difference. A pro choice person wants the mother to do what's best in her opinion, and a pro-life person wants the mother to choose to not abort the child. I believe it's just PLAIN WRONG to get an abortion. Yes, I said it. However, I do also not think that just because you got an abortion you are the scum of the Earth. I think mothers alike should be treated to best suit their cases. Whichever that may be. So, yes, I really hate the idea and practice of abortion, but am I going to murder mothers and abortion doctors because of it? Hell no.

 

#ControversialOpinionsSaidLogically

You keep saying things and tbh, I have no idea where you're trying to go with them. It sounds to me like you keep contradicting yourself (See 7Deadly$ins post), confusing you and everyone else in the conversation.

 

Pro-life isn't simply the belief that abortion is wrong or that fetuses should be protected over anything else. It's also the advocacy/support of anti-abortion laws. It's supporting restrictive abortion bans. Do many pro-life people murder abortion doctors? Yes. By far, the pro-life platform is a very murderous one. Do all pro-life people murder abortion doctors? No. It isn't murder in the name of anti-abortion that makes someone pro-life.

 

Pro-choice simply means you believe the pregnant person should have the choice and the option of taking the path best for them, whether that be abortion or pregnancy (and adoption or parenthood). It means you advocate for and protect reproductive rights. It says NOTHING about what you personally think of abortion (or child-rearing!) or what you would do in such a situation.

 

If you personally don't agree with abortion but would respect a pregnant persons choice, that sounds like the people who describe themselves as "personally pro-life, but publicly pro-choice" (which I don't at all agree with as a term because I don't like the way it phrases pro-life and pro-choice and I think it's a fundamental misunderstanding in what pro-choice means).

 

You may describe pro-life as simply thinking abortion is wrong, but truth is, society has expanded and changed these meanings and pro-life is now strongly intertwined with sexist (and cissexist) beliefs. It's not simply thinking abortion is wrong. It's a whole platform. Yes, abortion has been, unfortunately, politicized and the terms we use are reflected in this.

 

However, with "all the merrier" for abortion being illegal, yes, you certainly do sound pro-life/anti-choice. It's just perhaps that you're not out there protesting about it on the street (which doesn't make it any less pro-life).

[hazeh]

Making abortion illegal is going to kill more people (including fetuses) than having it legal does. So I don't understand that mindset at all.

[Htt71]

"Pro-life isn't simply the belief that abortion is wrong or that fetuses should be protected over anything else. It's also the advocacy/support of anti-abortion laws. It's supporting restrictive abortion bans. Do many pro-life people murder abortion doctors? Yes. By far, the pro-life platform is a very murderous one. Do all pro-life people murder abortion doctors? No. It isn't murder in the name of anti-abortion that makes someone pro-life."

 

I simply wanted to contrast that all I'm putting up is an opinion and would love to see abortion outlawed, I used murder of abortion doctors as an example to contrast such. Also, if your supporting the killing of a human child, I think you also have a bit of murder going on...

 

"Pro-choice simply means you believe the pregnant person should have the choice and the option of taking the path best for them, whether that be abortion or pregnancy (and adoption or parenthood). It means you advocate for and protect reproductive rights. It says NOTHING about what you personally think of abortion (or child-rearing!) or what you would do in such a situation."

 

When did I say anything about pro-choice opinion? You even capitalized NOTHING to make it a point. When there is no point I be had, and I recommend you read through it again, because I don't see what you're getting at.

 

"If you personally don't agree with abortion but would respect a pregnant persons choice, that sounds like the people who describe themselves as "personally pro-life, but publicly pro-choice" (which I don't at all agree with as a term because I don't like the way it phrases pro-life and pro-choice and I think it's a fundamental misunderstanding in what pro-choice means)."

 

Already explained this.

 

"You may describe pro-life as simply thinking abortion is wrong, but truth is, society has expanded and changed these meanings and pro-life is now strongly intertwined with sexist (and cissexist) beliefs. It's not simply thinking abortion is wrong. It's a whole platform. Yes, abortion has been, unfortunately, politicized and the terms we use are reflected in this."

 

I want to say that pro life has been defined by me at least 3 times now. Also, if it's been intertwined with all sorts of horrid things, who do you think did the intertwining? Pro choice people who think that we are selfish people who should have no say. I don't care for their opinions about what pro life is. It's simple and clearly defined.

 

"However, with "all the merrier" for abortion being illegal, yes, you certainly do sound pro-life/anti-choice. It's just perhaps that you're not out there protesting about it on the street (which doesn't make it any less pro-life)."

 

Why would I want to be less pro life?

 

"Making abortion illegal is going to kill more people (including fetuses) than having it legal does. So I don't understand that mindset at all."

 

Explain please. That's why we're here.

 

Edited February 4, 2014 by Htt71

[hazeh]

 

"Making abortion illegal is going to kill more people (including fetuses) than having it legal does. So I don't understand that mindset at all."

 

Explain please. That's why we're here.

Because it creates a lot of problems, for one. Just because it is illegal doesn't mean it's going to suddenly stop happening and women are going to want to be pregnant anymore than before it was illegal. It makes it dangerous. They will resort to any method they can, which will endanger their lives as well as their fetus. Women will kill themselves. Women will die from complications during birth because they were refused an abortion that would have saved their life. Families who have too many children because they were improperly educated or refused contraception will starve because they can't afford to feed their existing children. Children will kill themselves because they were given up for adoption and no one wants them because there are too many children in the system. It will cause way too much emotional, physical, and mental trauma.

 

 

Making it illegal will never be a good thing. All that does is endorse needless and endless suffering on more people than it ever should.

[Htt71]

First of all, if a woman has serious health complications, has been raped, or another serious case, my party only then is alright with an abortion

 

Secondly, if you are going to endanger your life and the life you are carrying, then you have issues.

 

Thirdly if you refuse contraception, who's fault is that? Mine? Pro-lifers? No. It's your fault. Schools and programs country wide are trying to teach sexual education. You have little excuse.

 

Finally, the amount of deaths would be the same or lower. If a child is aborted or commits suicide it's still one death. If it isn't aborted and doesn't commit suicide it's two lives, the mother and the child. Death rates would be lowered.

[hazeh]

Secondly, if you are going to endanger your life and the life you are carrying, then you have issues.

 

Well, yes. The fetus being one of them.

 

Thirdly if you refuse contraception, who's fault is that? Mine? Pro-lifers? No. It's your fault. Schools and programs country wide are trying to teach sexual education. You have little excuse.

No one said refuse contraception. Restricted access to it affects a lot of people, which, curiously, is the fault of many people who identify as pro-life. Huh.

"Schools and programs country wide" Hahahaha. No, not really. The American education system, especially, lacks so much with sexual education. Sex ED is dominated by the mindset of "abstinence only!" teaching, thus leaving out any useful information about actually getting pregnant and having sex. The places with the highest recorded teen pregnancies? All states that advocate and consistently teach abstinence only programs.

So no, that's a big reason.

 

Finally, the amount of deaths would be the same or lower. If a child is aborted or commits suicide it's still one death. If it isn't aborted and doesn't commit suicide it's two lives, the mother and the child. Death rates would be lowered.

 

Again, no. You're not counting the mothers that will either die from complications and/or suicide or attempted self-abortion. You're not counting the children that die because their families cannot feed them. You say that the children that kill themselves would be the same number, but it isn't. The more children you push into this broken system, the higher chance these kids will kill themselves. The less children that exist as foster/orphans, the less likely they are to commit suicide.

[Obscure_Trash]

Already explained this.

 

Why would I want to be less pro life?

One of your last few posts just contradicted everything I said, so if you explained it you contradicted yourself in your explanation, hence me posting it.

 

I didn't say you did. I said your definitions were contradicting.

 

Schools and programs country wide are trying to teach sexual education.

 

No they aren't.

 

Finally, the amount of deaths would be the same or lower. If a child is aborted or commits suicide it's still one death. If it isn't aborted and doesn't commit suicide it's two lives, the mother and the child. Death rates would be lowered.

 

Uh, no. Making abortion illegal doesn't stop abortions (and unsafe abortions are very deadly). Or suicide. And forced birth doesn't stop suicide either, of the parent or the child.

Edited February 4, 2014 by SockPuppet Strangler

[BlitzDrake]

Assume away. If it's illegal all the merrier.

 

 

EDIT: Also, let's not make this spiral into a heated discussion, because all that's going I happen is another battle of "Forced births are wrong, and the adoption system is " and "It's not your decision to play God and kill an innocent life form" alright?

 

If it's illegal then there will be more women that do it illegally, and making the abortion even more dangerous, to her it could kill her now, and that "precious" fetus too. Making it illegal is, to be blunt, stupid. Just because something is illegal doesn't mean people will abide to it.

And thats just it. It's people that are put in office that risk making abortion illegal so technically they ARE trying to make decisions for women.

Edited February 4, 2014 by BlightWyvern

[eritated]

Thirdly if you refuse contraception, who's fault is that? Mine? Pro-lifers? No. It's your fault. Schools and programs country wide are trying to teach sexual education. You have little excuse.

Like I've said here a few times before, mine just preached abstinence and used scare tactics. So, no.

[BlitzDrake]

First of all, if a woman has serious health complications, has been raped, or another serious case, my party only then is alright with an abortion

 

Secondly, if you are going to endanger your life and the life you are carrying, then you have issues.

 

Thirdly if you refuse contraception, who's fault is that? Mine? Pro-lifers? No. It's your fault. Schools and programs country wide are trying to teach sexual education. You have little excuse.

 

Finally, the amount of deaths would be the same or lower. If a child is aborted or commits suicide it's still one death. If it isn't aborted and doesn't commit suicide it's two lives, the mother and the child. Death rates would be lowered.

1) mm

 

2) Go read back your point you just made with statement one. I can't handle the pregnancy than you can be hell of a sure I would do anything to terminate it. ESPECIALLY since making it illegal is so much "merrier". Yeah I'd put my own life on the line to get that parasitic THING out of me. I gladly will accept that I have issues beings I'm a tokoiophobic/lockiophobic partial misanthropist. But the REASON for me having issues would be if I had that thing growing in me would ultimately be it

 

3) It can be society's fault. Beings religious groups tend to think that sex ed...PROPER sex ed is "bad" or people who don't want their kids for whatever reason to learn proper sex ed. Pft. You been to 'merican public school systems that teach sex ed? Mine used scare tactics and only how abstidence was the only way to prevent pregnancy. OH! they also said birth control HARDLY EVER worked.

 

4) That's so false it hurts and makes me laugh *read above posts*

Edited February 4, 2014 by BlightWyvern