Abortion

[TikindiDragon]

It get's worse then that.

 

Youngest birth mothers. (might be trigger inducing.)

 

The list starts at age of five.

 

 

So no, there's really no point in setting the age limit, especially since those beneath it are usually the ones that need abortion the most.

It's somewhat depressing to read how many of those are pretty recent. Also very depressing to note that the majority appear to have been cases of incest as well

 

Although I would also note that legal abortion would not have helped in many of those cases - as it seems the pregnancies were only discovered when they were well along.

[Fuzzbucket]

As far as I am aware the sterilisation one is also an issue in Canada. I *know* it is here in the UK - where cost is not an issue if the NHS can be persuaded to do it. As it is.... standing policy is "not if they're under 35 and/or have no children already".

It certainly was when I had mine done - Ontario - I was 28 and had had enough children (two) - and I had to fight like crazy. I am lucky to be articulate enough that saying I was going to write this up for a national newspaper got my doctor's attention (as the procedure was freely (ha ha) available, his (OF COURSE !) denying it would have interested the papers, but...

 

Even then my husband was asked to sign my papers saying he consented. He refused, saying it was MY body and I could do as I chose with it. As he was standing right there and not doing anything to stop me, I guess they decided not to push it.

[BlitzDrake]

Your mom sounds pretty strict, THaT's pretty horrible if she would tell you such things over a simple disagreement.

Well, she is a major christian, -.- pretty much "god's way or burn in hell". Hence why if I disagree with her supporting the Walk for Life because, not only do the people I've seen get nasty if you contradict them about facts on abortion, or disagree with their views, I want to support the individuals for what they believe is the best choice.

It's just what I call narrow-minded mentality. I do indeed believe that I would be told I would go to hell, etc, if I were to profess that I support the pro-choice side. She has supported every candidate for the elections, etc that don't allow abortions (Atkins, Santorum to name a few) I don't say anything but geez its annoying when I open my mouth (I try not to voice my views due to I just want to lessen any arguments. I still haven't learned my lesson, lol.) when I say I'd hate for these people to be in office it puts me on the spot. lol.

[Syaoransbear]

It certainly was when I had mine done - Ontario - I was 28 and had had enough children (two) - and I had to fight like crazy. I am lucky to be articulate enough that saying I was going to write this up for a national newspaper got my doctor's attention (as the procedure was freely (ha ha) available, his (OF COURSE !) denying it would have interested the papers, but...

 

Even then my husband was asked to sign my papers saying he consented. He refused, saying it was MY body and I could do as I chose with it. As he was standing right there and not doing anything to stop me, I guess they decided not to push it.

Perhaps that is a really personal question but can I ask why you got a tubal ligation instead of your husband getting a vasectomy? Or did you both get sterilized?

[Fuzzbucket]

Perhaps that is a really personal question but can I ask why you got a tubal ligation instead of your husband getting a vasectomy? Or did you both get sterilized?

Because I knew I never wanted any more children. But if I had been run over by a truck - he might have wanted more with a new partner. We had talked that one through.

 

Also I did not want to be taking the pill for years and years - and that was a ME thing, something I wanted not to be doing (just as well, as it turned out, as my deafness is hormone dependent - I had no idea it was going to happen at that point - and it would have been way worse if I had carried on on the pill.)

 

ETA actually now I wonder what they would have said if HE had asked for one at 28, come to think.... I guess man to man THAT is OK ?

Edited September 19, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[TikindiDragon]

ETA actually now I wonder what they would have said if HE had asked for one at 28, come to think.... I guess man to man THAT is OK ?

I was certainly told they'd be more willing to perform a vasectomy on my partner than tubal ligation on me. For us it's rather the same as it is with Fuzz - if, God forbid, something should happen to me then my partner would want the ability to have children still present (not that he wants children at all, I think it's more incase a new partner was desperate for them).

 

Besides - I'm the one with the health complications, here. Including some that are at least partially hereditary. Even my GP would have been happy to refer me for it, it's just he said no surgeon would agree to perform the operation.

 

Which just goes back to the old stereotype of "Silly woman, of *course* you're going to want kids.".

[Thuban]

Even after having two children, I was given a hard time when I decided i wanted to get my tubal done. However, I knew how much trouble they give to people my age (at the time) and knew what I needed to say to be /allowed/ to do it.

 

In my case, birth control is a very, very bad thing. It causes me to have severe mood swings, I am at a high stroke risk, it made my migraines unmanageable, and at the time, I had insurance that would cover the procedure, he didnt. I showed up with tons of paperwork, copies of my medical records.. everything i could get my hands on that supported MY reasoning for wanting it done. It helped that i had not one but TWO trips to the ER due to immediate reactions from getting the Depo shot. The second round of depo.. almost landed me in a mental institute.

 

 

Now, my husband would have preferred to be the one fixed... but his insurance doesnt cover it. We are saving up to get him snipped as well. He does NOT want any more kids either, even if something happens to me.

[Cecona]

I think the whole "with a good reason" thing comes from pro-life people worried that some women would abuse the option to get an abortion. Like they would have more sex, or they would use it as a form of birth control.

[Pokemonfan13]

It's somewhat depressing to read how many of those are pretty recent. Also very depressing to note that the majority appear to have been cases of incest as well

 

Although I would also note that legal abortion would not have helped in many of those cases - as it seems the pregnancies were only discovered when they were well along.

Well, who other than a family member sexual abuser would be having sex with a child?

[TikindiDragon]

Well, who other than a family member sexual abuser would be having sex with a child?

Couple of cases of oppertunistic rape, couple of the child having been prostituted, handful of historical counts where the child had been married (as in certain areas that was the custom as soon as they started their periods), and a handful where it was kids of around the same age messing about (12 year old got a 10 year old pregnant ). But, yeah. Not really a good thing, and with the exception of the last one totally inexcusible.

[MasterWeavile898]

Well, she is a major christian, -.- pretty much "god's way or burn in hell". Hence why if I disagree with her supporting the Walk for Life because, not only do the people I've seen get nasty if you contradict them about facts on abortion, or disagree with their views, I want to support the individuals for what they believe is the best choice.

It's just what I call narrow-minded mentality. I do indeed believe that I would be told I would go to hell, etc, if I were to profess that I support the pro-choice side. She has supported every candidate for the elections, etc that don't allow abortions (Atkins, Santorum to name a few) I don't say anything but geez its annoying when I open my mouth (I try not to voice my views due to I just want to lessen any arguments. I still haven't learned my lesson, lol.) when I say I'd hate for these people to be in office it puts me on the spot. lol.

(Here I go again, I don't expect this to end well. Oh, and Sock, I may be getting a bit off-topic, sorry if I am)

 

Well, to an extent, I probably agree with her. Though I don't see how differing on opinion can be an automatic sentence to Hell. I certainly don't believe my grandmother is going to Hell for supporting abortion, she's clearly a very strong christian. I do believe abortion is wrong, though not for religious reasons. I also don't believe that someone who gets one is in the wrong if they truly feel they need it, I can't condemn someone for doing something I feel is wrong. I feel that a baby in the womb is a baby, some fancy scientific name won't change that for me, and that it's wrong to kill it. (Except in life or death cases, the mother's life is no more important than the babies imo (or any less) but the mother already has a life and relationships.)

 

But there is a limit, I am horrified at some peoples attempts to guilt people who have had abortions, who wish to have abortions, who support allowing others to have abortions, and who perform abortions. And then they turn around and act like they have done nothing wrong. Attempt to harm someone's psyche (and guilt most assuredly does that) is not going to make them agree with you. And condemning them is as much, if not more, wrong. No one has any right to tell anyone else they are going to Hell for any singular action, they[the people doing the condemning] deserve to go to Hell as much as any other.

 

And, on the topic of young pregnancy, I stop feeling there's anything wrong with it around 10. In terms of being pregnant I mean. Though the circumstances for most of those pregnancies were often a bit disturbing imo.

[Fuzzbucket]

Well, who other than a family member sexual abuser would be having sex with a child?

And a VERY few people who have cunningly got themselves jobs looking after children for that very purpose, believe it or not.

Edited September 19, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[MasterWeavile898]

And a VERY few people who have cunningly got themselves jobs looking after children for that very purpose, believe it or not.

Yeah, some people can be really disgusting. The fact THaT someone would purposefully get a job so THaT they can harm children, just wow. Some people just amaze me. (In an extremely bad way.)

[CatCreature]

So then he is unloved and unwanted by his mother, as catstaff was getting at.

Psst, wrong cat.

 

LegendOfKorraFan

You just told us that you are the one loving and caring for your brother and not his parent(s).

 

Your brother is very very lucky to have you and I give you credit for taking care of him. But can you imagine your brother without you in his life? That is a reality for way too many children in this world. Being born without anyone loving and caring for them.

 

Personally, I would be more upset and angry on those parents who do give birth to children they don't want or can't love. Those children do end up being (mentally/ physically/ sexually) abused and/or neglected by either their parents or in fosterhomes. If they don't end up dead in the gutter first.

 

That is not a life I wish any child to go through.

[Cecona]

Yeah, some people can be really disgusting. The fact THaT someone would purposefully get a job so THaT they can harm children, just wow. Some people just amaze me. (In an extremely bad way.)

You know all those cases of priests sexually abusing alter and choir boys? Those are perfect examples of this. They were child predators that took a job where they would be around their targets and no witnesses. And instead of being put in prison for what they have done they just get sent to another church.

[HeatherMarie]

Personally, I would be more upset and angry on those parents who do give birth to children they don't want or can't love. Those children do end up being (mentally/ physically/ sexually) abused and/or neglected by either their parents or in fosterhomes. If they don't end up dead in the gutter first.

 

That is not a life I wish any child to go through.

I've said more or less the same thing in this thread MANY times. Choice of aborting a clump of cells, or giving birth to a needy little baby that you never wanted and *will* never love? Right there, imo it's not as much about the woman as it is the POOR CHILD who will have to go through their entire childhood *hearing* that they are stupid/worthless/etc, never being hugged or comforted, never feeling *safe* in their own home (and this goes for foster homes as well).... Having to hide the tears and the bruises, growing up with mental scaring that never completely goes away no matter how long you go to therapy.....

 

Oh yeah, THAT sounds SO much better then just aborting a little clump of cells. /sarcasm.

[MasterWeavile898]

You know all those cases of priests sexually abusing alter and choir boys? Those are perfect examples of this. They were child predators that took a job where they would be around their targets and no witnesses. And instead of being put in prison for what they have done they just get sent to another church.

No clue, I should probably look that up. (I'm not of a denomination that has priests.)

 

It still pretty horrible that anyone would do that.

 

My grandfather is actually in prison for rape (like way back when he was twenty), it's kind of sad. He was going to be a doctor (of medicine), and then. Yeah. There's no way he'd do it again. (I may be biased a bit, but I'm fairly certain.) But it's still pretty bad that he did.

[Cecona]

No clue, I should probably look that up. (I'm not of a denomination that has priests.)

 

It still pretty horrible that anyone would do that.

 

My grandfather is actually in prison for rape (like way back when he was twenty), it's kind of sad. He was going to be a doctor (of medicine), and then. Yeah. There's no way he'd do it again. (I may be biased a bit, but I'm fairly certain.) But it's still pretty bad that he did.

He is in prison now for a rape he did when he was in his twenties?

 

I'm sure it's sad that he lost his chance to be a doctor, but there is never a reason to commit rape, and by doing so he traumatized a woman, possibly scarred her for life with the acts he did. Even more so if she ended up pregnant from the rape.

 

I understand that he is your grandfather, and family usually has a very hard time seeing the bad things a person they care for deeply has done, but that can't excuse him from being a rapist and it's a good thing he was placed in jail for his crimes.

[Red Dragonette]

So I was on Deviant Art looking at a pro-choice when I saw a pro-lifer trying to attack abortion. The argument went like this: http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc176/L...zpsac17d2b3.png I was SilverBeastLaguz, btw.

 

Most of this links he used were from right-wing, Christian, and pro-life websites, which I attacked and called false. He hasn't replied in a while and probably will never will. So I think I might have won the argument. So what do you guys think of this debate? How do you think I could have done better? If you were pro-life, what would your argument be for my last say?

 

Here are the links I used for this debate:

- http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTPOVE...49/dyifull2.pdf

- http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/2007/05/...ent-becker.html

- http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v20n2/ch...ed_science.html (I just found out that I accidentally used a progressive website in my argument. But you all can look at it if you want.)

- http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/04/21/pro-life-lie/

- http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/psy_ocr2.php (again, I accidentally used another biased website, but you can feel free to look)

 

The link GlassBottleDemon used:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonatal_perception

 

The one non-pro-life link Neridan used:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/child-...y-do-they-do-it

 

Call me biased, but I won't be putting up any pro-life links here because like I and the OP said, these kinds of websites can twist the truth.

[Syaoransbear]

So I was on Deviant Art looking at a pro-choice when I saw a pro-lifer trying to attack abortion. The argument went like this: http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc176/L...zpsac17d2b3.png I was SilverBeastLaguz, btw.

I just can't stand it when anyone compares anything to the holocaust.

[sparkle10184]

Neither can I^^ Nothing is comparable to the holocaust...

[MasterWeavile898]

He is in prison now for a rape he did when he was in his twenties?

 

I'm sure it's sad that he lost his chance to be a doctor, but there is never a reason to commit rape, and by doing so he traumatized a woman, possibly scarred her for life with the acts he did. Even more so if she ended up pregnant from the rape.

 

I understand that he is your grandfather, and family usually has a very hard time seeing the bad things a person they care for deeply has done, but that can't excuse him from being a rapist and it's a good thing he was placed in jail for his crimes.

I think it was in his twenties, can't remember for certain. (He's only 60)

 

I honestly don't know the details, the conditions never seemed important to me. (It's rape, 'nuff said) Though I don't think traumatizing someone is a crime. (I'm not saying rape isn't wrong, I'm not even really sure I'm disagreeing?) I could go on for quite a while about trauma.

 

I agree that it's good he was jailed, I never said it wasn't. He was clearly wrong to do what he did. I still uphold that he is very different, a lot older and less stupid. And so much of a hippy anymore.

[Kestra15]

Though I don't think traumatizing someone is a crime.

Sorry, what?

[Brite]

Though I don't think traumatizing someone is a crime.

You sure about that?

[Cecona]

I already privately told Weavile why I disagree with traumatizing someone not being a crime, but yea going through trauma is extremely hard and painful even if it's not physical pain.