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My personal belief on abortion:

I think that, unless the pregnancy were to seriously physically affect the mother, the baby should be had. You don't have to keep it, you don't have to love it, you can hate that thing as much as you want, but don't terminate it.

 

Now, back to the matter at hand.

I seriously hate it when people compare a fetus to a parasite such AS a Tape Worm. Would that in turn make children parasites? They rely on their parents (the host) for food, shelter, and warmth.

When CAN we tell when a fetus is self aware? Do we poke it until it realizes it hurts, then asks us politely to stop? How CAN we tell? Of course people can say "When it has a brain", yet, going back to the tree example, they don't have brains either but they're alive.

 

Also, we aren't talking about what it will become or do for society. We're talking about wither it's self conscious and/or alive. The answer, either technically or personally, is yes. The embryo IS alive, because it is creating/generating cells of it's own, which a non-living thing such as a rock can't do. Wither or not it is self conscious, probably not. But that doesn't mean it isn't alive.

And what about MENTAL health? Huh? What then? What if it would emotionally or mentally destroy the mother?

 

Or do you think we should chuck the child into an uncaring system that has more children entering it than leaving it? What kind of life is that for a child? There is no guarantee the child would be adopted by a loving parent/couple. That it would be given a good home, raised well. And I say that as an adoption success story.

 

 

The thing is, I kinda see little brats as parasites, too. They drain you of your time, money, energy, and all other resources and give nothing in return. I can't stand 'em, especially babies.

 

 

Also, yes the fetus is alive--but the fruit I eat was also alive at one point. The meat I eat was alive at one point. Why the censorkip.gif should I care more about a fetus--just because it has the potential to become a human? Sorry, not good enough for me to care about it more than any other living organism that I kill or that it's dying benefits me in some way.

 

A fetus is not a person--a person is somebody who is capable of physically existing without being hooked up to my body and stealing my resources, forcing itself upon me against my will and mentally destroying me while possibly leaving me with permanent physical changes to my body as a result of the parasitic relationship with it.

 

 

Also, lol @ "pro-abortionists". Nope, proper term is "pro-choice". Because a pro-abortionist would be "ABORT ALL THE BABIES".

 

Last time I checked, we were all "You don't have to abort if you don't want to! Keep it, give it up, whatever! Just let us have the CHOICE to abort if we feel it's best in our situation".

Edited by KageSora

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I was addressing the topic of abortion as a whole. I don't like to talk about witty bitty parts about it. And yes, I did realize that, but wasn't that the whole point of why people were against or pro abortion? Because pro-abortionists didn't think that life started at conception? So, just because the embryo doesn't LOOK human, that doesn't mean it isn't.

 

This is definitely not the subject to be talking about when trying to fall asleep. IT'S A TRAP!

((Sorry for the comic relief (or at least I consider it to be), I just feel that when people address such a serious topic, it's a nice way to calm down))

Ah, no. Not really. I think you've got the pro-choice concept down utterly wrong.

 

a) Pregnancy is discussed in terms of trimester. That means even when a pregnancy is carried to term it's recognised medically as having different stages. A pregnancy is not one singular event, it's a staged process. Hence there's no reason not to also frame any discussion of abortion with those same stages.

 

B) Pretty much no-one in the pro-choice camp would argue that an embryo is not alive. The argument is very much that if it has no brain, it cannot be a person. If you think pro-choice people do not think an embryo qualifies as 'alive' then you need to do a lot more research. What many of us *will* point out is that while, yes, it is alive and it does have human DNA, it also has the possibility of turning into a tumor or a calcified mass. It's not a guarentee that it will become a person.

 

c) A lot of pro-choice people would actually never get abortions themselves - however they do believe that every woman should have the right to choose to terminate a pregnancy if she feels it is the right thing for her.

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I know it's been said again and again, but I want to bring up the bodily autonomy point again, because I simply find it one of the best pro-choice arguments there is.

 

The reason that abortion needs to stay legal, affordable, and available is because above all else, a person has a right to decide what happens to their body. The problem is that an unwanted fetus uses the pregnant person's body against their will. If someone is dying in the hospital, and needs an organ transplant, you can't force someone to donate an organ to them EVEN IF THE DONOR IS DEAD. Because just taking or demanding to take their organs without their permission is WRONG. Because it's THEIR organs, not the government's, not anyone else's.

 

By saying that a pregnant person HAS to turn over the use of their uterus for a fetus, you are giving more rights to a fetus than any born person (who doesn't have the right to use someone else's body or organs against their will) and less rights to the pregnant person than A CORPSE.

 

It definitely doesn't matter whether or not the fetus is alive (although, like everyone else has said, no one is trying to argue that it's not alive, because we all know it is), but I don't even think that the matter of whether or not a fetus is a person is relevant. Even if it were a person, it still wouldn't have the right to use another person's body against their will.

Edited by hydrargyrum

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My personal belief on abortion:

I think that, unless the pregnancy were to seriously physically affect the mother, the baby should be had. You don't have to keep it, you don't have to love it, you can hate that thing as much as you want, but don't terminate it.

 

Now, back to the matter at hand.

I seriously hate it when people compare a fetus to a parasite such AS a Tape Worm. Would that in turn make children parasites? They rely on their parents (the host) for food, shelter, and warmth.

When CAN we tell when a fetus is self aware? Do we poke it until it realizes it hurts, then asks us politely to stop? How CAN we tell? Of course people can say "When it has a brain", yet, going back to the tree example, they don't have brains either but they're alive.

 

Also, we aren't talking about what it will become or do for society. We're talking about wither it's self conscious and/or alive. The answer, either technically or personally, is yes. The embryo IS alive, because it is creating/generating cells of it's own, which a non-living thing such as a rock can't do. Wither or not it is self conscious, probably not. But that doesn't mean it isn't alive.

Some people would argue that children are parasites, but that's something else entirely. And like Sin said, we aren't arguing whether or not the fetus is alive. It's okay for you to have your beliefs, so long as you don't force them onto other people. That's what the big problem is, pro-forced birth people making laws that are dangerous and against women's, and human rights.

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From a biological standpoint a fetus is indeed a parasite. It affects the host in a negative manner: it takes and takes and doesn't give back - this is a parasitic relationship. So yes, it is quite comparable to a tapeworm. A tapeworm does the exact same thing. Both can kill the host, too. This holds true whether you wish to see it this way or not.

 

I don't mind you having your beliefs. What I and others object to is having your beliefs forced on us.

 

Remember that all the prochoice side wants is CHOICE. We are not asking you to like or have an abortion; all we ask is that you respect and uphold our right to do with our bodies as we wish.

 

 

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I was addressing the topic of abortion as a whole. I don't like to talk about witty bitty parts about it. And yes, I did realize that, but wasn't that the whole point of why people were against or pro abortion? Because pro-abortionists didn't think that life started at conception? So, just because the embryo doesn't LOOK human, that doesn't mean it isn't.

That is the trouble with so many politicians - they leap on the word abortion (and the fact that the people who choose abortion are WOMEN - those whose abortions are chosen by men did not have the choice !) and don't want to talk about the minutiae of it all - that might show them how wrong they are.

 

Am embryo is not human. If it were, it would be able to be out here walking among us. When you have an abortion (unless it is one of those ghastly late term ones done for anencephaly or something, which is as awful for the mother as it is overall) what ends up in the bucket is some bloody clots and fluid. If that gets up and walks away,. I will believe it's human. Not until.

 

And until a BABY - even - is born - it IS a parasite.

 

par·a·site 

/ˈparəˌsīt/

Noun

An organism that lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the host's expense.

 

Sounds like - even - a foetus at 8.9999 months, to me. Also a tapeworm.

 

Edited for totally messed up parentheses....

Edited by fuzzbucket

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My personal belief on abortion:

I think that, unless the pregnancy were to seriously physically affect the mother, the baby should be had. You don't have to keep it, you don't have to love it, you can hate that thing as much as you want, but don't terminate it.

You must hate kids more than I do. blink.gif A pregnancy and delivery is affecting the mother both physically and mentally and in my case that would be torture. Only to throw that kid in the trash? Or in an adoption system where it grows up knowing it's unwanted, unloved and even hated? unsure.gif

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You must hate kids more than I do. blink.gif A pregnancy and delivery is affecting the mother both physically and mentally and in my case that would be torture. Only to throw that kid in the trash? Or in an adoption system where it grows up knowing it's unwanted, unloved and even hated? unsure.gif

 

@fuzzbucket You realize that a fetus needs time to developed, right? It's not just a "Ooop, here's a full grown baby". Did you know that only two humans can make a human baby? It's not going to look human right from the get go.

@Infinis If it appears that I'm "forcing my belief" on any of you, I apologize. I didn't mean for that to happen.

And the way you explained it as "They just want the option"... I still don't know how I feel about that. I suppose have the option couldn't hurt, I just don't like the idea of abortion in itself.

This. This of all the comments made me the most angry. No, I don't hate kids, I love hem with all my heart. My greedy step mother wanted my brother aborted because she was thin at the time. NO OTHER REASON. Thank god she didn't! I love this boy more than life itself. Yeah, he has autism, but I don't care. He is so smart, sweet, and full of personality.

In conclusion, no, I don't hate children more than you do.

 

Can someone explain to me how this mentally affects the mother? Does it cause depression? Schizophrenia? Bi-polar disorder? What? I understand having a kid that you don't want COULD cause depression, but I find it highly unlikely that such would occurs. I have no facts to back me up, just another opinion.

Can someone show me a statistic of how often women developed severe mental disorders after having children? That would make this a lot easier for me.

 

 

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Some people are literally disgusted at the idea of having a baby growing inside them. For some it is an actual phobia. Those people are NOT going to be mentally affected well by being pregnant. At all.

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What? I understand having a kid that you don't want COULD cause depression, but I find it highly unlikely that such would occurs. I have no facts to back me up, just another opinion.

Can someone show me a statistic of how often women developed severe mental disorders after having children? That would make this a lot easier for me.

Pre-birth:

"Antenatal depression, also known as prenatal Depression, is a form of clinical depression that can affect a woman during pregnancy, and can be a precursor to postpartum depression if not properly treated. It is estimated that 7% to 20% percent of pregnant women are affected by this condition"

 

Post-birth:

"Postpartum depression also called postnatal depression, is a type of clinical depression which can affect women, and less frequently men, typically after childbirth. Studies report prevalence rates among women from 5% to 25%, but methodological differences among the studies make the actual prevalence rate unclear."

 

And those are both pretty common - even amongst women who *want* to have a child. Also relevant is:

 

"Postpartum psychosis is a separate mental health disorder which is sometimes erroneously referred to as postpartum depression. It is less common than PPD, and it involves the onset of psychotic symptoms that may include thought disturbances, delusions, hallucinations and/or disorganized speech or behavior. The prevalence of postpartum psychosis in the general population is 1–2 per 1,000 childbirths, however the rate is 100 times higher in women with bipolar disorder or a previous history of postpartum psychosis. Bipolar disorder and, to a lesser extent, schizophrenia have elevated prevalences in postpartum psychosis"

 

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It isn't just the fact that depression and anxiety can be caused and/or exacerbated by the pregnancy... It is also that people who already have mental disorders are typically taking medications that would be problematic for or harmful to the developing embryo/fetus. If they stop the medication(s), they are at greater risk of damage to their mental/physical health (especially if they have suicidal tendencies); if they do not, the potential child is at risk.

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Well, I'm by no means an expert, but there are numerous reasons... a quick google search of "pregnancy caused mental illness" quickly leads to a lot resources and explanations. Here's a quick summary.

 

- Depression and anxiety directly related to how to care for the child, both during pregnancy and afterwards. (One resource I found, from Standford School of Medicine, says that up to 10% of pregnant women can suffer from major depression...one of the symptoms of which are recurrent thoughts of death and suicide).

 

- Women who suffer or have suffered from eating disorders such as bulimia or anorexia may suffer severe body issues due to the weight gain and other body changes.

 

- Furthermore, many women already suffering from various psychiatric disorders stop or change medicines during pregnancy to protect the fetus, which can lead to relapses.

 

- I also understand that trauma is quite common in female-to-male transgendered individuals (which physically can't stand their female body), as well as in individuals who got pregnant from rape.

 

That said, I'm not an expert. I highly suggest doing some research yourself. smile.gif

 

Edited to fix minor grammatical error.

Edited by Completely Different

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This. This of all the comments made me the most angry. No, I don't hate kids, I love hem with all my heart. My greedy step mother wanted my brother aborted because she was thin at the time. NO OTHER REASON. Thank god she didn't! I love this boy more than life itself. Yeah, he has autism, but I don't care. He is so smart, sweet, and full of personality.

In conclusion, no, I don't hate children more than you do.

 

Can someone explain to me how this mentally affects the mother? Does it cause depression? Schizophrenia? Bi-polar disorder? What? I understand having a kid that you don't want COULD cause depression, but I find it highly unlikely that such would occurs. I have no facts to back me up, just another opinion.

Can someone show me a statistic of how often women developed severe mental disorders after having children? That would make this a lot easier for me.

I can't stand children, and this has largely grown out of the fact that parents are no longer controlling their children and teaching them how to behave anymore. So my dislike of children is more largely confined to "ill-behaved children" yet I, unfortunately, have come into contact with few who weren't. You have no idea how much I hate it when parents let their children scream and cry in the store. If I ever did that, I was taken home immediately.

 

Here are some links on mental health and pregnancy you should look at:

 

http://womensneuroscience.stanford.edu/wel.../Pregnancy.html

 

http://www.womensmentalhealth.org/specialt...ring-pregnancy/ (that page has another link: http://www.womensmentalhealth.org/depressi...en-not-treated/ )

 

http://www.who.int/mental_health/preventio.../MaternalMH/en/

Quote from this page:

Suicide is one of the most common causes of maternal death in the year following delivery in developed countries.

*Emphasis mine. Note that it says "developed," not "developing."

 

You realize that a fetus needs time to developed, right? It's not just a "Ooop, here's a full grown baby". Did you know that only two humans can make a human baby? It's not going to look human right from the get go.

 

I don't consider it a human until it reaches the point where it can't become anything else. Before a certain point a fetus can just easily die and become a tumor, and just because a tumor has a heartbeat doesn't mean it's human.

 

@Infinis If it appears that I'm "forcing my belief" on any of you, I apologize. I didn't mean for that to happen.

And the way you explained it as "They just want the option"... I still don't know how I feel about that. I suppose have the option couldn't hurt, I just don't like the idea of abortion in itself.

 

I don't think anyone really does, but this is my point exactly. We aren't asking you to LIKE it. We are asking you to help keep it legal and moreover SAFE for the women who choose to take that option. There are a number of prochoice people who believe abortion is wrong who still uphold the right to choice.

 

The fact of the matter is that abortion isn't going away. Making it illegal won't make it magically not be a thing anymore. It will simply drive it back underground, where it becomes significantly less safe. The coat hanger analogy has more truth to it than you think, and women can and do die from abortions obtained in an unsafe, unsanitary place with nonmedical instruments performed by a random person. Driving abortion back underground is only going to force death rates from operations like this UP.

Edited by Infinis

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*Does a heavy sigh* I suppose that... if it is monitored and safe that women (maybe) should be able to choose.

 

I'm disgusted with myself :/

 

Also, if you hate kids and don't want to have any, have your tubes tied. Simple. My mom had her tubes tied after me (oh god, that sounds so bad ;A; ). Yes I understand the risks of that procedure too, fyi.

 

And the fact that someone pointed out that I said "pro-abortionist" and made fun of me for it is immature. I was tired when I wrote what I did, don't try to make it into a big deal. Also, I don't understand how you got "KILL ALL THE BABIES!" out of that.

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Also, if you hate kids and don't want to have any, have your tubes tied. Simple. My mom had her tubes tied after me (oh god, that sounds so bad ;A; ). Yes I understand the risks of that procedure too, fyi.

Please realize that lots of people would love to have their tubes tied, but either cannot afford the procedure or are denied it by doctors who feel they are "too young" or "you'll change your mind." Some doctors won't even do it unless the person has had 2+ children already. >..<

 

Also, nobody is judging your mom for getting sterilized. If she didn't want to have any more children and could afford the procedure, that's a perfectly acceptable way of going about it. She did what she felt was best, and that's okay.

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Tubal ligation is indeed an option, but not for everyone. It ranges in price from $1000 to $6000 dollars, so poorer women- the ones who are most often looking for abortions- can't afford them. It also doesn't cover people who would like to have children one day, but for some reason don't think they're in a position at the moment, or who were raped at a young age.

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*Does a heavy sigh* I suppose that... if it is monitored and safe that women (maybe) should be able to choose.

 

I'm disgusted with myself :/

 

Also, if you hate kids and don't want to have any, have your tubes tied. Simple. My mom had her tubes tied after me (oh god, that sounds so bad ;A; ). Yes I understand the risks of that procedure too, fyi.

 

And the fact that someone pointed out that I said "pro-abortionist" and made fun of me for it is immature. I was tired when I wrote what I did, don't try to make it into a big deal. Also, I don't understand how you got "KILL ALL THE BABIES!" out of that.

Upholding choice is, imo, much less disgusting than saying no one should be allowed to do what they want with their bodies. The abortion debate is as much an issue of bodily autonomy as it is about actual abortion.

 

It's not that simple to just go and get your tubes tied all nonchalantly like that. In the US people still operate under the archaic belief that everyone wants children and that if they say they don't "WELL YOU'LL CHANGE YOUR MIND!!" It's very hard to find a doctor who will perform a tubal ligation if you haven't already had at least one child. Part of it is undoubtedly for legal protection in case a person DOES change their mind, although I'd also imagine a good lawyer could write up a release of liability form of some kind for that.

 

my mom had her tubes tied after my brother was born. She flat out did not want more children.

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Also, many women need access to abortions when their fetus has a life-endangering medical need. There was an instance of a couple who, after learning that their fetus suffered from mermaid syndrome (I believe that's the popular name for it) and had a very unlikely chance of surviving past childhood, decided to get an abortion. This was a fetus that the couple WANTED and LOVED, but as parents they decided what was best for their potential child was not a life of suffering and pain, not to mention a possibly very short one.

 

My moms' friend also had been trying to conceive for around 5 years, and when she finally got pregnant, learned that the fetus had a genetic defect that would have prevented the fetus from surviving outside of the womb once he was born. She opted for an abortion because she believed it would be more than cruel to go through the entire pregnancy only to know she was going to lose her baby shortly after he was born.

 

There are many, MANY reasons women need access to abortion, and thus why it needs to remain legal and safe.

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The fact of the matter is that abortion isn't going away. Making it illegal won't make it magically not be a thing anymore. It will simply drive it back underground, where it becomes significantly less safe. The coat hanger analogy has more truth to it than you think, and women can and do die from abortions obtained in an unsafe, unsanitary place with nonmedical instruments performed by a random person. Driving abortion back underground is only going to force death rates from operations like this UP.

I'd like to make a quick note that not all abortion clinics are safe and sanitary. (I wish I had time to find some sources and exact numbers, but I don't right now, sorry. :/ )

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I'd like to make a quick note that not all abortion clinics are safe and sanitary. (I wish I had time to find some sources and exact numbers, but I don't right now, sorry. :/ )

Perhaps not, but I'd wager that they're orders of magnitude more likely to be than a 'back alley' abortion.

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This. This of all the comments made me the most angry. No, I don't hate kids, I love hem with all my heart. My greedy step mother wanted my brother aborted because she was thin at the time. NO OTHER REASON. Thank god she didn't! I love this boy more than life itself. Yeah, he has autism, but I don't care. He is so smart, sweet, and full of personality.

In conclusion, no, I don't hate children more than you do.

Can you tell your smart, sweet brother, in the face, that he's unwanted and unloved? I hope NOT! unsure.gif Your post (the one I quoted) made it sound like you were prepared to tell children all over the world, kids just like your brother, that they are unwanted and unloved.

 

Children should be born wanted and loved but many aren't. What kind of life is that? sad.gif

 

Can someone explain to me how this mentally affects the mother? Does it cause depression? Schizophrenia? Bi-polar disorder? What? I understand having a kid that you don't want COULD cause depression, but I find it highly unlikely that such would occurs. I have no facts to back me up, just another opinion.

Can someone show me a statistic of how often women developed severe mental disorders after having children? That would make this a lot easier for me.

Not everybody can handle all the hormones and the changes the body go through when making room for a baby.

Edited by CatCreature

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LoKfan, I don't think anyone was making fun of you, at least that's how it looked to me. People were just pointing out differences between pro-life, and pro-force birth. Just like there is a difference between Pro-choice, and Pro-abortion. It was more of a correction. And you really shouldn't feel disgusted for saying you would not force women to go through the pregnancy. There are a lot of women that wouldn't be able to handle going through a 40 week pregnancy. Their mind or body wouldn't be strong enough, especially if a traumatic event like a rape is the cause of the pregnancy. Would you really look a rape victim in the eye and tell her she has to keep the child of her attacker inside her body, leeching nutrients from her to survive? If she ended up keeping the child it would grow up being resented and unloved. It would be a constant reminder of the attack to the mother. It's damaging.

 

And if she tried to give the baby up for adoption the father can sue her for custody, and drag her through courts and cause her even more trauma. And if that didn't happen the whole adoption system is broken- it's always been broken since the days of it's infancy (google "mother of modern adoption" or "Georgia Tann" but I need to warn you before you do that she was one sick, cold, deranged woman).

 

Too many foster families are in it for the money and don't bother to actually care for the children. It's highly possible for them to be physically or sexually assaulted, and not always by the adults. A severely large number of children are taken from abusive and/or drug addicted parents and what abuse that has been done to them, they end up doing to other children. And it's highly likely the children have mental problems that may be unknown, or just neglected and untreated as well. Most likely, the kids simply end up becoming too old to stay in the system and are kicked out onto the streets or placed in a half way house.

 

I used to date a guy whose family fostered children. His family was one of the good ones but he recounted so many tales of the children and what they had gone through. One child in particular had been shaken as an infant and was brain damaged. That child did a lot of damage to the furniture. And there was another one with autism that had been sexually assaulted by another foster child. He had it pretty rough too and actually wished he had been aborted at some times.

Edited by Cecona

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Also, if you hate kids and don't want to have any, have your tubes tied. Simple. My mom had her tubes tied after me (oh god, that sounds so bad ;A; ). Yes I understand the risks of that procedure too, fyi.

LOL that is NOT as easy as it sounds! Doctors believe they know you more than you know yourself so they think you'll change your mind. In my state you CAN'T have your tubes tied unless you have 2 kids and are over 30.

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Time to give my opinion on this and ignore the previous bickering.

 

I believe, yes, abortion should be allowed.

 

However, ONLY if you're over 18 and it's in the first two trimesters.

 

Otherwise, just have the baby and learn your lesson.

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