Abortion

[Alpha1]

To me this sounds horribly hypocritical and I'd give this lady a stern talking-to, given the chance, even considering that some people believe animals lack souls.

 

 

 

 

[NobleOwl]

Ensoulment at conception for humans.

 

Which again makes no sense from a scriptural or logical point of view.

 

There's not much difference between a baby still in the womb and its head coming out of the birth canal.

 

Actually, there is. There's a big difference in nervous system activity.

 

I know it's a firmly held belief by many that an animal does not have a soul of any kind; it follows that there is therefore no sin in killing it.

 

That's interesting. I know Judaism does not hold such a belief, which is why there are strict rules on treatment of animals.

[Alpha1]

Actually, there is. There's a big difference in nervous system activity.

 

Do you think it's self-aware once it pops its head out?

 

 

[LascielsShadow]

No, that doesn't happen until about 1 year. (14-15 mos., I think?) Difference in nervous system activity just means...a difference in activity.

Edited May 15, 2013 by LascielsShadow

[NobleOwl]

Do you think it's self-aware once it pops its head out?

 

No.

[Alpha1]

No.

Well, then. Isn't it rather arbitrary? Their connectome still needs to be developed.

 

Talmud "But if the greater part {or the head} was delivered, one may not touch it, for one may not set aside one person’s life for the sake of another."

 

I think that's kind of silly.

[NobleOwl]

"But if the greater part {or the head} was delivered, one may not touch it, for one may not set aside one person’s life for the sake of another."

 

Where are you getting the interpretation that it's the head? Because that's not what it means.

 

I think that's kind of silly.

 

Even that is what it meant, it wouldn't be "silly".

 

"The activity in the nervous system of the fetus increases as much as sevenfold after delivery. It is only after delivery that the average cerebral cortex and limbic system activate beyond rudimentary levels. This can occur as rapidly as soon as ninety seconds after birth." Perinatal Brain Development and Developmental Disorders (2011, Dr. M. F. Beal)

[Alpha1]

Where are you getting the interpretation that it's the head? Because that's not what it means.

 

It came from a book. Edit: Nevermind, it was a substitution. So what does it mean?

 

Even that is what it meant, it wouldn't be "silly".

 

"The activity in the nervous system of the fetus increases as much as sevenfold after delivery. It is only after delivery that the average cerebral cortex and limbic system activate beyond rudimentary levels. This can occur as rapidly as soon as ninety seconds after birth." Perinatal Brain Development and Developmental Disorders (2011, Dr. M. F. Beal)

 

http://umaine.edu/publications/4356e/

 

“At birth, the human brain is in a remarkably unfinished state. Most of its 100 billion neurons are not yet connected in networks. Forming and reinforcing these connections are the key tasks of early brain development.”

 

Synaptogenesis

 

“At birth, the number of synapses per neuron is 2,500, but by age two or three, it’s about 15,000 synapses per neuron. This is like going from 100 to 600 friends on Facebook, and each of those friends in turn, is connected to 600 more people! The neural network expands exponentially”

Edited May 15, 2013 by Alpha1

[KageSora]

Then there's the ones who think you need to be punished for daring to have sex, Kage. They not only don't care, they actively think you deserve it.

I mostly just lumped them in with the "don't care" but yeah, they're a "special" breed of "don't care".

 

Then, to be fair, there are those who believe (however misled you may think they are) that sacrificing one life for the good of another is morally wrong.

Personally, I think that's kinda stupid because if the mother dies before giving birth (from illness, injury, suicide, whatever) then the fetus dies with her and you have two deaths where you only needed to have one. And if the mother dies in the process or after birth but the fetus lives, well... There's still all kinds of problems that can cause...

 

That said, I'd feel bad blanket-banning late abortions outside of physical health concerns just because there's always someone who happens to fall in that category who would suffer in horrible ways if they had to keep the baby, and I'd rather have extra abortions (even if they bother me a bit) and keep those people from suffering than the alternative.

Don't just take physical health into consideration--mental health is just as important, if not more so, than physical health.

 

A woman may be physically capable of handling a pregnancy, but it might mentally destroy her.

[TCA]

Don't just take physical health into consideration--mental health is just as important, if not more so, than physical health.

 

A woman may be physically capable of handling a pregnancy, but it might mentally destroy her.

That's a pretty large part of WHY I said there'd be people who would suffer in horrible ways if they were forced to keep it, so I can't oppose a blanket-ban on any subset of (properly done, humane) abortion.

 

Don't worry, I was thinking of mental health.

Edited May 15, 2013 by TheCompleteAnimorph

[KageSora]

That's a pretty large part of WHY I said there'd be people who would suffer in horrible ways if they were forced to keep it, so I can't oppose a blanket-ban on any subset of (properly done, humane) abortion.

 

Don't worry, I was thinking of mental health.

Sorry, lots of people just mean that financially or something and don't actually take into consideration the mental health. It's very often overlooked in such discussions, sadly.

 

And when it is addressed people often don't care... :<

[NobleOwl]

So what does it mean?

 

It means the greater part of the pregnancy, according to Jewish law, ie: 22-24 weeks.

 

“At birth, the human brain is in a remarkably unfinished state. Most of its 100 billion neurons are not yet connected in networks. Forming and reinforcing these connections are the key tasks of early brain development.”

 

And?

 

“At birth, the number of synapses per neuron is 2,500, but by age two or three, it’s about 15,000 synapses per neuron. This is like going from 100 to 600 friends on Facebook, and each of those friends in turn, is connected to 600 more people! The neural network expands exponentially”

 

You're not telling me anything I don't know. Neither of these change the fact that the nervous system, kicks into high gear after birth.

 

  I think that's kinda stupid because if the mother dies before giving birth (from illness, injury, suicide, whatever) then the fetus dies with her and you have two deaths where you only needed to have one.

 

Those that view it the same way think that it's better for two people to die, than for someone to murder someone else. One of my pro-life friends tends to relate it to break-ins. She could shoot a burglar to save her husband and herself, but to her, that would be wrong.

[Alpha1]

It means the greater part of the pregnancy, according to Jewish law, ie: 22-24 weeks.

 

The places I look say either most of the body (greater part) or including the head. Where do you get the 22-24 weeks from?

 

Talmud Arachin 7 MISHNAH. IF A WOMAN IS ABOUT TO BE EXECUTED, ONE DOES NOT WAIT FOR HER UNTIL SHE GIVES BIRTH

 

And?

 

That's would be my response to neural activity right at birth. It's from the information flooding in because of the sensory organs. It still has a lot of time before it's self-aware as is evident from the synaptogenesis.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Alpha1

[NobleOwl]

Where do you get the 22-24 weeks from?

 

Multiple rabbis and scholars, as well as the fact that the Talmud also states that if so much as a limb is delivered, it is considered childbirth.

 

See also "Biomedical Ethics and Jewish Law".

 

Talmud Arachin 7 MISHNAH. IF A WOMAN IS ABOUT TO BE EXECUTED, ONE DOES NOT WAIT FOR HER UNTIL SHE GIVES BIRTH

 

Don't yell, and that's only half the quote. If she has already gone to the birthing tent/stool, then you are forced to wait.

 

It still has a lot of time before it's self-aware as is evident from the synaptogenesis.

 

It has nothing to do with self-awareness. it has to do with brain activity.

 

It's from the information flooding in because of the sensory organs.

 

Not actually accurate, but inconsequential.

Edited May 16, 2013 by NobleOwl

[TikindiDragon]

Those that view it the same way think that it's better for two people to die, than for someone to murder someone else. One of my pro-life friends tends to relate it to break-ins. She could shoot a burglar to save her husband and herself, but to her, that would be wrong.

Somewhat off topic, but it's nice to hear that there are pro-lifers that are actually consistant. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard pro-life people announce that they'd happily shoot intruders into their house

[Spelunker]

Somewhat off topic, but it's nice to hear that there are pro-lifers that are actually consistant. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard pro-life people announce that they'd happily shoot intruders into their house

I agree.

[Alpha1]

Multiple rabbis and scholars, as well as the fact that the Talmud also states that if so much as a limb is delivered, it is considered childbirth.

 

You’ve posted this before:

 

"If a woman is in hard travail, one cuts up the offspring in her womb and brings it forth member by member, because her life comes before the life of her foetus. But if the greater part has proceeded forth (ie: most of the infant has been delivered), one may not set aside one person for the sake of saving another. Oholot 7:8"

 

They also seem to like the number 40 a lot.

 

Niddah 30a Mishnah. If a woman miscarried on the fortieth day, she need not take into consideration the possibility of valid childbirth.

 

Don't yell, and that's only half the quote. If she has already gone to the birthing tent/stool, then you are forced to wait.

 

It was already all caps.

 

Let me get this straight. Is it okay to kill it in the womb at 22+ weeks? They won’t necessarily be on a birthing stool.

 

It has nothing to do with self-awareness. it has to do with brain activity.

 

Are you saying the increase in synapses has nothing to do with the formation of self-awareness?

 

We’re just going to have to agree to disagree. I don’t see why an increase in brain activity during birth suddenly changes things.

 

[NobleOwl]

You’ve posted this before:

 

I know I have. I'm correcting myself and saying my understanding was wrong. This is not a topic I just "accept" that I know all about, and when I get new information from authorities, I change my position.

 

So yes, I have changed my position in the last year, because I went to several classes on this at an Orthodox women's yeshiva, which had many interesting speakers, who pointed out things I had never put together in my studies before. My apologies if I suddenly need to announce to you when my position has shifted somewhat.

 

Niddah 30a Mishnah. If a woman miscarried on the fortieth day, she need not take into consideration the possibility of valid childbirth.

 

I'm not sure the point you are making.

 

Let me get this straight. Is it okay to kill it in the womb at 22+ weeks? They won’t necessarily be on a birthing stool.

 

Is it "okay"? Not halachiacally, (though I use 24, not 22), but Jewish law only applies to Jews. Is it "murder" no.

 

Are you saying the increase in synapses has nothing to do with the formation of self-awareness?

 

I'm saying we can't know and it doesn't matter.

 

We’re just going to have to agree to disagree. I don’t see why an increase in brain activity during birth suddenly changes things.

 

Why does an increase of brain-activity in a comatose person change things? They're not necessarily self-aware, but it still changes things.

[Brite]

Somewhat off topic, but it's nice to hear that there are pro-lifers that are actually consistant. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard pro-life people announce that they'd happily shoot intruders into their house

I've heard a lot of them say crazy things. My favorite question to them is, "If your 11-year old daughter was raped and impregnated, threatening her life, would you consider an abortion?"

 

They don't like to answer, the response is usually a change in subject. They simply don't want to admit that not everything is black and white.

[Aingeal]

I've heard a lot of them say crazy things. My favorite question to them is, "If your 11-year old daughter was raped and impregnated, threatening her life, would you consider an abortion?"

 

They don't like to answer, the response is usually a change in subject. They simply don't want to admit that not everything is black and white.

I don't think I know a single pro-life person who would so much as pause to that question. All of them would say no.

[Fuzzbucket]

I don't think I know a single pro-life person who would so much as pause to that question. All of them would say no.

I'm afraid that is my experience too

[PointOfOrigin]

I don't think I know a single pro-life person who would so much as pause to that question. All of them would say no.

... And a big number of them would then sneak their daughter in the abortion clinic. And then they would try to justify it and think that their situation was "different".

[Spelunker]

... And a big number of them would then sneak their daughter in the abortion clinic. And then they would try to justify it and think that their situation was "different".

This does sound like the most likely scenario.

[Slaskia]

Boyfriend 'tricks' pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill

 

The woman wanted to keep the baby, the man, did not. So he switched her medication around, resulting in the baby being miscarried.

 

Of course, being TheBlaze, the comments are head-shake worthy.

[KageSora]

Boyfriend 'tricks' pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill

 

The woman wanted to keep the baby, the man, did not. So he switched her medication around, resulting in the baby being miscarried.

 

Of course, being TheBlaze, the comments are head-shake worthy.

Not going to bother looking at the comments...

 

While I don't think that's murder, I do think that's horribly disgusting and he deserves punishment for going against her will. That's NOT okay. It needs to be a CHOICE, and she clearly chose to keep it--he didn't get a say beyond that.

 

That's just disgusting.