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What was the source again?

2011 Social Services Survey and Census of Adoption and Foster Systems in the United States

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Its the mind, not the body, that define life. People who are brain-dead, with their bodies kept alive, are not human anymore, just lumps of meat still breathing. Otherwise, doctors and families commit murder every day by take such patients off life support and allowing the body to die. Because the body with no brain activity, cannot live on its own. Coma patients have just enough brain activity to allow the bodies to keep going. Brain-dead, nope. Not without help.

 

So, if you go by heartbeat and breathing as a measure of life, then we need to arrest and jail pretty much every doctor in the world.

 

I do believe that the stricture on abortion begins at 3 months, because that's when brain activity starts.

Edited by Riverwillows

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If any member of my family is ever asked if it is time to pull the plug on my life support, they know that the correct answer is yes. If I EVER come round and find that this was not what they did, they also know how very very VERY sorry I will make them (they know I am not interested in taking a chance on coming round as a vegetable even if there is a small chance I might be perfectly OK - and doctors don't ask unless the prognosis is pretty awful.)

 

Will they be murderers, when they do that ?

Edited by fuzzbucket

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I also vehemenently dislike how in the abortion debate your requirement for a medical procedure is scrutinized over how ~responsible~ you are. You can get drunk and break your arm and get a procedure. There won't be massive crowds of people outside your window DEMANDING that you don't get said surgery because you were irresponsible. If I eat chicken that has gone bad I again would not be told of how irresponsible I am by hoards of people. I am sure that the people who have worked in the medical industry here can tell me of many injuries involving people who were careless. If a mother comes in the ER because she was not watching her child and the kid got themselves severely injured I again doubt that there would be a massive line of protesters demanding that she give up her child. I have seen abusive parents get away with it. But somehow abortion is suddenly a responsibility issue? Tell me that when you picket outside a hospital demanding that abusive parents lose custody of their children. Now there is a responsibility issue if I ever saw one.

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Doctors don't ask unless the prognosis is pretty awful. Will they be murderers, when they do that ?

You know, in that case I am actually inclined to say "Yes." Since I've now had too many people tell me how those people who doctors told them will "remain vegetables for life" miraculously recover and become their former selves. The "will remain vegetable for life" diagnosis gets flung about like it's nothing. Why they continue giving it to people who are not in cerebral death I cannot fathom...

 

Abortion is not murder, since a non-person cannot be murdered, but proclaiming someone who is not braindead - an existing person - who still has a chance "a vegetable for life" and having them taken off life support due to it is killing-by-carelessness at best.

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You know, in that case I am actually inclined to say "Yes." Since I've now had too many people tell me how those people who doctors told them will "remain vegetables for life" miraculously recover and become their former selves. The "will remain vegetable for life" diagnosis gets flung about like it's nothing. Why they continue giving it to people who are not in cerebral death I cannot fathom...

 

Abortion is not murder, since a non-person cannot be murdered, but proclaiming someone who is not braindead - an existing person - who still has a chance "a vegetable for life" and having them taken off life support due to it is killing-by-carelessness at best.

But that's the point. I KNOW some people miraculously recover, but I know MANY more who have "recovered" - including one of my best friends - who now have lives I would HATE. I choose not to take the risk of being one of them. (the direction is on file with doctors and lawyers, and is as far as I know legally binding - I just wondered how you would feel about my relatives doing as they'd been told !)

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You know, in that case I am actually inclined to say "Yes." Since I've now had too many people tell me how those people who doctors told them will "remain vegetables for life" miraculously recover and become their former selves. The "will remain vegetable for life" diagnosis gets flung about like it's nothing. Why they continue giving it to people who are not in cerebral death I cannot fathom...

Go get a medical degree. and then you'll work it out. I don't know what kind of image you have of doctors, but certainly ours don't "fling them about" and while you may know someone become "their former selves," you seem to ignore the hundreds or thousands of others who are in the same position and remain in a vegetative state.

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I also vehemenently dislike how in the abortion debate your requirement for a medical procedure is scrutinized over how ~responsible~ you are. You can get drunk and break your arm and get a procedure. There won't be massive crowds of people outside your window DEMANDING that you don't get said surgery because you were irresponsible. If I eat chicken that has gone bad I again would not be told of how irresponsible I am by hoards of people.

This! So very much this!

 

I also wonder where all the supposed life-loving support goes once the child is born. I mean, the number one thing to push women in America below the poverty line is being a single mother.

Where is all that religiously based energy to help them get educated and into the job market, or pay their medical bills when the kid is five years old?

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I KNOW some people miraculously recover, but I know MANY more who have "recovered" - including one of my best friends - who now have lives I would HATE. I choose not to take the risk of being one of them. (the direction is on file with doctors and lawyers, and is as far as I know legally binding - I just wondered how you would feel about my relatives doing as they'd been told !)
I know of some people who have recovered perfectly or at least well enough, and in at least in case of some of them, they have very clearly stated they would not have preferred death, too. I personally would be content with any kind of life as long as I could at least get text onto a computer screen - hey, only finishing my currently incomplete writings would keep me occupied for a few years and then some, seeing how I appear to have troubles with tying loose ends without creating a dozen new ones while I am at it.

 

I don't think your decision is right - however, that is just my personal opinion. I would probably still (try to) stop you if you were at good health and feeling suicidal, but if you were already in bad enough condition for it to be said that you probably would not recover I would respect your decision and let you be taken off life support.

 

 

@Kestra: I have more or less entirely lost my faith in doctors' ability to give accurate predictions. I've seen them proven completely wrong too many times already.

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It's technically 1-2% now.

 

Here's my view on abortion v. adoption. Why would you be against preventing a fetus suffering before it has any guarantee of being human rather than put them into a system where they have a 88% chance of being molested or abused, a 90% chance of attempting suicide -- when we know for a fact through studies that 97% of the children failed to be adopted in the 18-month window will actively state (some as early as five) that they wish they had never been born?

 

 

 

Here's the thing about abortion, it's the mother's choice because as the parent, she has to make the decision as to what will be best for the child. Why would you be better to decide what's better for those children (who had no guarantee that they would become people and not a tumor or a parasitic mass) than your aunt?

 

 

 

I have. I have wished every day of my life that my mother had been brave enough to abort me. Instead, I've lived my life knowing that she died so I could be born, and knowing that every time my father saw me, he was seing the daughter that killed his wife.

 

I have walked into a friend's house to find her dead because she couldn't live with the feeling of something that she felt was an embodiment of evil inside her, but she believed abortion was wrong and felt suicide was her only option.

 

I've met six year olds who have cried in my arms telling me that their biological mothers were too selfish to have an abortion.

 

I've gone to three funerals in this year alone thus far, of children who were given up for adoption but never placed, who committed suicide because they just couldn't take it anymore.

 

I've watched as parents, thinking their doing what's best for their child, mortgage their house and sell everything they own to afford putting a child up for adoption,  thinking their doing the better thing, and then me, watch that child as it gets older and can't be placed, ending up in the foster care system.

 

I've been through a rape pregnancy, having nightmares and flashbacks and gave birth with broken ribs and legs.

 

I've seen ten year olds who were raped and whose parents refuse to let them get an abortion, ending up paralysed for life.

 

I've seen women who think abortion is wrong get jailed for using safe havens because the baby is malnourished because the mother didn't have enough money to feed herself.

 

I've been beaten up by pro-life protesters. I've had rocks thrown at me by protesters.

 

I have gone to homes where the mother didn't believe in abortion, and had to remove a nine and a seven-year old because the mother hated them so much she couldn't bring herself to care for them.

 

I've seen mother's who were pressured into keeping the baby by family members, who would "look at them differently" if they had abortions, completely unable to love the child in any form, who would rather kill themselves than wake up another day to see them in a crib.

 

I've seen women who just can't take being pregnant but whose families wouldn't believe in abortion throw themselves down stairs, off balconies, who have done everything in their power to miscarry.

 

I've seen 12 year olds who feel like they should die because they were never wanted in the first place.

 

I have had children beg me why their mothers forced them to live. Who have cried in my arms screaming that they never asked to be born.

 

I can't be pro-life, because I have to work with the consequences of the pro-life movement. I have to see what happens after the protesters and the families leave.

 

So, to tell me, who works in social services and still works as an "other options" counselor at a clinic that I have so "see thigns from all sides" and throwing the numbers of how many abortions have happened at me -- why not look at the numbers of how many children are put in care every year?

How many are in care at any given time because of abuse (over 400,000)

How many children are proven to be neglected each year: (872,000)

How many die on average due to neglect in the home (2,560)

How many are put in care because they were not adopted (120,000 in 2004, which has since risen to triple that)

How many fatalities for under-five year olds are due to neglect (76%)

How many calls CPS gets each year (3.2 million)

How many cases actually get investigated: (64%)

How many cases investigated get rereported (22%)

 

And you want to put more children in the system? I already work overtime every week, am on-call when I'm not at work, and have been shot twice.

Every time I see ShinyT use her box of statistics and experiences, I shiver. Really, this is something every militant pro-lifer/birther should see.

 

That said, I have no desire to have children of my own. In fact, I hate being depended upon, so a screaming baby demanding things from me would drive me insane. Heck, I get very annoyed when my hard-of-hearing father asks me to 'translate' for him when he has trouble understanding someone: I know he can't help it, but I can't help how I feel about it.

 

In fact, that selfishness is likely a trait I got from my bio-mother, whom was an independent, selfish censorkip.gif* that only thought for herself (and did at least alcohol when she was pregnant with me, good chance of drugs as well). I was damn lucky I was adopted within family, or I'd likely be dead due to neglect (my little half-brother almost met that fate before my (grand)parents took him away from her as well: he's an alcohol baby as well).

 

Hell, even though my (grand)parents wanted me and my bio-mother wanted nothing to do with me, my (grand)parents had a hell of a time trying to adopt me. The case worker was fighting against them every step of the way, kept 'finding things wrong' with the house, etc (despite having raised three kids already, including my bio-mother). It wasn't until my (grand)parents moved to another state, and got a different case worker, that my adoption went through.

 

I bet you, that if my (grand)parents hadn't succeeded, I probably would have languished in the system until I aged out because I was an alcohol baby (at least). Heck, even now I am likely still suffering from the 'choices' my bio-mother made while pregnant with me, considering I suffer from anxiety/depression and who knows what else.

 

Blech...sorry for the rant.

Edited by Slaskia

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Some people seem to have a fanatical belief that if your life isn't properly molded after Ozzie and Harriet, you did something to deserve it.

 

Speaking of which, in North Carolina they aren't just going after abortion providers now. Now it's all health care providers. They are starting with teen ones, but be sure they'll expand it when they can. Article

 

A Republican-controlled committee in the North Carolina General Assembly approved a bill on Tuesday that would require teenagers to present a notarized parental consent form in order to access sexually transmitted disease testing and treatment, mental health counseling, pregnancy care or substance abuse treatment. Teenagers without a parent or guardian would be required to stand before a judge and request a judicial bypass in order to obtain those health services.

 

North Carolina already requires parental consent for teenagers seeking abortions. House Bill 693 would be the first law in the U.S. to amend that parental consent law to include STD testing and treatment, mental health counseling and other health services.

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Some people seem to have a fanatical belief that if your life isn't properly molded after Ozzie and Harriet, you did something to deserve it.

 

Speaking of which, in North Carolina they aren't just going after abortion providers now. Now it's all health care providers. They are starting with teen ones, but be sure they'll expand it when they can. Article

 

 

Thankfully, it appears that it's been benched indefinitely.

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It would be just like the 9 year old that was excommunicated from the Catholic Church after aborting her father's child. IE: It was God's Plan. Make the best of it.

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/shivers at Vhale's post

 

 

Honestly, for me, it boils down to this: I value the quality over the quantity of life. I, personally, find that more important and a responsible way to look at it; for BOTH mother and potential baby.

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Fine. On one hand you hold a petri dish with a zygote. On the other hand you hold a baby. You have to drop one. According to you there is no difference.

I'd drive myself insane before I made that choice. I don't see a difference.

 

/goes back to lurking

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You know, in that case I am actually inclined to say "Yes." Since I've now had too many people tell me how those people who doctors told them will "remain vegetables for life" miraculously recover and become their former selves. The "will remain vegetable for life" diagnosis gets flung about like it's nothing. Why they continue giving it to people who are not in cerebral death I cannot fathom...

 

Abortion is not murder, since a non-person cannot be murdered, but proclaiming someone who is not braindead - an existing person - who still has a chance "a vegetable for life" and having them taken off life support due to it is killing-by-carelessness at best.

DNR's notwithstanding, however.

 

I have a living will that states if I cannot live without a machine, I am to be pulled off it. You'd be surprised at how many people HAVE DNR's, but how FEW of them are honoured.

 

I recently lost my Oma to a lifelong battle with anorexia nervosa, and she was on life support due to heart failure. She came to long enough to BEG to be taken off it if she fell back to needing it again. She had a DNR that was ignored- THREE TIMES- by the doctors that brought her back from her ischemic myocardial infarction.

 

"Don't put me back on that damned thing," she said. "Let me die."

 

There were witnesses, so the doctors couldn't deny her wish. When she started to slip again, they let her go for good, and she finally looked at peace.

 

You'd be surprised at how many people are on life support that never wanted to be there.

 

I personally have a DNR- wrote it into my living will when I had surgery on my spine. My mother threw a fit over it- she would rather me be hooked to a machine for the rest of my life, decaying in a bed and doing nothing if I were a vegetable, rather than let me go and have peace. Frankly, it disgusts me, because it's my body and my hypothetical life in that hypothetical situation.

 

(I was actually in a pseudocoma for a few days due to an adverse reaction to the anaesthesia, and she had to face what it looked like to see me hooked up to machines. She admitted she hated seeing me unable to do anything, tubes invading my body and doing everything for me because my body could not.)

 

It's not our place to decide if a person lives if they want to die, if a person carries a child or chooses not to, etc. It's their body. What they do with it doesn't hurt anyone else. No one else owns their body. Not the government, not the church, not their family, no one but THEM.

 

(And, my apologies if I misunderstood your post, but seeing defence of leaving people hooked to machines makes me very upset.)

 

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My mother had a DNR. And I honored it.

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I'm going to state my belifs firmly.

 

Once a cell is concieved, it is a child. Abortion kills children, and their is no other explanation for it's evil. There is no excuse, and nothing that could state it's right.

 

Killing a child in our lifetime is called MANSLAUGHTER. So is abortion, and I refuse to think it isn't.

I have marched for life two years in a row, and will continue every year to travel 22 hours ON A BUS with people to Washington D.C. and march in freezing rain, snow, and tempuratures that I would rather not walk in for two hours.

 

I'm going to state this simply, and clarify something for anyone reading this that is Prochoice. I hope this will change your mind.

 

*It's a child, not a choice. Would you kill your own baby? A LIVING, BREATHING baby? It's stated that just after a few WEEKS after conception their is a heartbeat and recorded cells in the womb.

 

*In the holocaust, would you shoot down Jews? If not (hopefully), why would you murder a baby?

 

*If the world is "too populated" and abortion is a "nessesary evil" then why was the baby concived in the first place? Polls show that 87% of children aborted are by teenagers. That's way to young to have a baby, but is it too old to be a killer?

 

I'm now stating some quotes I found on Pro-Life websites. If you think there is a logical explanation for abortion, make sure and tell me because I may change your mind.

 

*Our value should not be detirmend by our size- babies

 

*If you do not believe in miracles, perhaps you forgot you are one.

 

*Ever notice everyone Pro-Choice is already LIVING?!?

 

*When scientist find a cell on other planets they say, "We found life."

When scientists find a cell in the womb they say, "Its a choice, not life, not a child."

 

*If you're pronounced dead when your heart STOPS beating? Why aren't you pronouced alive when your heart STARTS beating?

 

Be pro life, and respect life <3

First off:

Comparing abortion to the Holocaust is disgusting. Sometimes abortions are medically necessary for the mother to live, and they save a contributing member of society.

The Holocaust was GENOCIDE of Jews, Mentally/Physically Handicapped, Non-Heterosexuals, Rromani (You would probably know them by the slur "Gypsies") and other "Non Aryan" races that were "abominations against God and the Master Race."

 

When you compare a woman's choice about what happens in her own body that YOU DO NOT OWN to the MURDER OF THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE THAT WERE ALREADY BORN OR GROWN, you SPIT on their hardships and their struggle. STOP THAT. STOP IT.

 

Second:

 

It is NONE of your business what someone does with their body. You don't know their story. Maybe the woman having an abortion isn't crying because she's ashamed of the "message" you screamed at her in front of the clinic- she could be crying because her baby is dead inside her, or has a FATAL birth defect and will die inside her soon. She's crying because YOU demonised HER for terminating a pregnancy that will not end with a baby that can be taken care of. YOU are HURTING HER in an already painful time.

 

Maybe that woman who is ducking away from your horrible shouts, your religious propaganda, is getting an abortion because her baby is an ectopic pregnancy and she would DIE if she doesn't terminate the pregnancy. She WANTED that baby, and you're SCREAMING at her because YOUR GOD made it grow in the wrong place.

 

Maybe, a woman has been diagnosed with a terminal illness, and does not have long enough to bear her child. Maybe she was diagnosed with malignant Stage Four cancer that has metastasised from her bone marrow to her liver, and she won't LIVE long enough to bear her child- or maybe she was diagnosed, and she can't go through the live saving chemo/radiation while she's pregnant. You're SCREAMING at her because she's dying, and has no choice.

 

Maybe, despite being careful, despite a tubal litigation, the birth control, the condoms, a woman with health problems becomes pregnant. If she carries the child to term, she runs a 90% chance of dying- This was me. I have fibromyalgia, MULTIPLE problems with my nerves, MULTIPLE problems with my blood pressure. If I were to try to carry a child to term, I would suffer complications and could very well die. Despite being careful, despite my precautions, I became pregnant.

 

I was lucky. I had a miscarriage. I didn't have to face people like you, screaming at me, calling me a sinner, a censorkip.gif*, and other names, because despite doing all I could, I had gotten pregnant, and I didn't have to have an abortion to save my life- my body did it for me.

 

Third:

 

What is it with prolife considering only brain dead people and foetuses as people? Once they're born, you don't help the mother care for it- you say "You shouldn't have had a kid if you can't take care of it," yet you scream, throw rocks, vandalise their property if you know they want to have an abortion.

 

A friend of mine had an abortion because she was raped by her FATHER. Someone broke all the windows in her car and left a note saying she didn't deserve to have a car because she was killing the result of INCEST. Not ONE of you EVER cares about the mother. You never care that a good percent of these women* are in mental- sometimes physical- AGONY. Crying themselves to sleep because they've been raped, or because they want to keep a child that won't live, or they can't keep a child they want because it will kill them.

 

You NEVER ASK. YOU JUST SCREAM YOUR SELF RIGHTEOUS DRIBBLE.

 

What a woman does with her body in order to stay healthy is NONE of your business, and you should feel horrible for judging someone when you don't know their story. So gloat all you want about preaching the words of a book that contradicts itself with every turn. Go ahead and disregard that supposedly, Christ died for your sins, but apparently, terms and conditions apply to that statement. Go ahead and think you're doing God's work when all you're doing is aiming blind hate at women that don't deserve it.

 

At the end of the day, the only bad person is the one you see in the mirror.

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-snip for long-

Don't forget that if they have to have an abortion, theirs is the only one that's okay because they're the only one who could possibly have ended up in that situation who isn't a censorkip.gif or a murderer!

 

I know there's a link somewhere to stories told by abortion providers of the very hypocritical pro-forced-birthers who would harass and verbally torture their patients coming in for abortions and then going right back to protesting.

 

ETA:

 

Here we go! Found it! Stories from when the anti-choice crowd decide to exercise their power of choice to become the very murderers they condemn.

Edited by KageSora

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I'd drive myself insane before I made that choice. I don't see a difference.

 

/goes back to lurking

Would you see a difference if the zygote became a tumor?

 

 

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Don't forget that if they have to have an abortion, theirs is the only one that's okay because they're the only one who could possibly have ended up in that situation who isn't a censorkip.gif or a murderer!

 

I know there's a link somewhere to stories told by abortion providers of the very hypocritical pro-forced-birthers who would harass and verbally torture their patients coming in for abortions and then going right back to protesting.

 

ETA:

 

Here we go! Found it! Stories from when the anti-choice crowd decide to exercise their power of choice to become the very murderers they condemn.

Yes, thank you! I was actually in the middle of looking for something similar! <3333333333

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I think that the whole argument on abortion gets lost in a few ways.

 

Bottom line, the real issue is, should women be allowed to get it or not? Regardless of whether it's "murder" or not, I say women should be free to get an abortion if it is her wish.

 

Really, it can be that simple. Yes, or no.

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